Galatians 2:20

[Episkopos]

That hunger is suffering for Him. It is the same suffering whether we are in plenty or in lack, in pleasure or not in pleasure. It doesn’t matter which we experience, the hunger and thirst is there and we trust no matter which circumstance, hoping to find Him. The circumstance doesn’t matter. We would suffer ten times more for Him. Only our hunger matters to us. It is…I adjure you, if you find my beloved, tell Him I am sick with love and that I hunger and thirst and suffer for Him until I might find Him and be united to Him.

I see what you are getting at now. We hunger for righteousness IN THE WORLD...as per Matt. 5. We look for justice and equity rather than the lawlessness we see all around us. That is not the same as hungering for our own righteousness.

We hunger and thirst for the Lord to fill us in our emptiness. But that is not the same as suffering for His name sake.

When the disciples were beaten and hated for His name sake...they rejoiced that they were found worthy to suffer for Him. There is no hunger there....only joy and fulness.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I see what you are getting at now. We hunger for righteousness IN THE WORLD...as per Matt. 5. We look for justice and equity rather than the lawlessness we see all around us. That is not the same as hungering for our own righteousness.

We hunger and thirst for the Lord to fill us in our emptiness. But that is not the same as suffering for His name sake.

When the disciples were beaten and hated for His name sake...they rejoiced that they were found worthy to suffer for Him. There is no hunger there....only joy and fulness.

He gives us whatever suffering He gives to each of us to teach us the obedience of trust and the firm endurance of trust and to conform us to Himself. He works it to our good. What form of suffering doesn’t really matter, it only matters that He will work it to our good and the good of our brothers and sisters. We don’t choose our sufferings. We learn to rejoice in our sufferings when we see the good He works through them, but we do not choose them.

 

[Episkopos]

He gives us whatever suffering He gives to each of us to teach us the obedience of trust and the firm endurance of trust and to conform us to Himself. He works it to our good. What form of suffering doesn’t really matter, it only matters that He will work it to our good and the good of our brothers and sisters. We don’t choose our sufferings. We learn to rejoice in our sufferings when we see the good He works through them, but we do not choose them.

True...but the spiritual battle is only taken to the enemy once we have been conquered from within. If we are conflicted within ourselves we will not be able to stand against the enemy without wavering. The devil has our number until we are taken out of the equation by being crucified in the outer man. Jesus said...there goes the devil and he has nothing IN Me!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

True...but the spiritual battle is only taken to the enemy once we have been conquered from within. If we are conflicted within ourselves we will not be able to stand against the enemy without wavering. The devil has our number until we are taken out of the equation by being crucified in the outer man. Jesus said...there goes the devil and he has nothing IN Me!

Yes. We are conflicted within ourselves until we stubbornly insist on trust no matter what is happening around us or to us. He can’t make us stand firm unless we stand firm. If you do not stand firm in your trust you will not stand at all. If you will not trust and believe, surely you will not be established nor will you remain.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

True...but the spiritual battle is only taken to the enemy once we have been conquered from within. If we are conflicted within ourselves we will not be able to stand against the enemy without wavering. The devil has our number until we are taken out of the equation by being crucified in the outer man. Jesus said...there goes the devil and he has nothing IN Me!

I think you might be right about that, that the spiritual battle is only taken to the enemy once we have overcome the world and the flesh…although, I don’t know what that will look like or be…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

True...but the spiritual battle is only taken to the enemy once we have been conquered from within. If we are conflicted within ourselves we will not be able to stand against the enemy without wavering. The devil has our number until we are taken out of the equation by being crucified in the outer man. Jesus said...there goes the devil and he has nothing IN Me!

I just thought of the verse in the OT about God taking them a roundabout way in the desert instead of straight into the land He wanted to give them because He said, if they see war immediately they might turn back.
He wanted to practice and grow them in the obedience of trust first so they would prevail in warfare.

 

[Episkopos]

I just thought of the verse in the OT about God taking them a roundabout way in the desert instead of straight into the land He wanted to give them because He said, if they see war immediately they might turn back.
He wanted to practice and grow them in the obedience of trust first so they would prevail in warfare.

On that count, there is the example of Caleb...who was so robust that he was as much a warrior (not a worrier ) that he could fight as well in his old age as when he was young.

The wilderness walk is where we all spend most (actually mostly ALL) of our own spiritual lives. We lack the faith to enter the Promised Land because of unbelief, just like the Israelites. I am speaking of we Christians as a group. There are a few who indeed go in...those are the spies! But hardly anyone is happy to hear their report!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

On that count, there is the example of Caleb...who was so robust that he was as much a warrior (not a worrier ) that he could fight as well in his old age as when he was young.

The wilderness walk is where we all spend most (actually mostly ALL) of our own spiritual lives. We lack the faith to enter the Promised Land because of unbelief, just like the Israelites. I am speaking of we Christians as a group. There are a few who indeed go in...those are the spies! But hardly anyone is happy to hear their report!

Yes, I agree, it’s unbelief. Which brings me back to what I asked about men saying God calls some to more love while on earth. I can’t accept it. It’s an excuse for unbelief, which is the ONE thing God asks of us - to believe Him and trust Him, no matter our circumstance.

It says, He let them become very thirsty in the desert to see what they would do. You could take that and fit it to EVERY circumstance you find yourself in and ANY thing that befalls you. You could say, He let Jennie become very, very sick to see what she would do. Or, He let Bill lose a child to see what he would do. Or, he let Dan be thrown into a blazing furnace to see what he would do. Or, He let Phyllis lose her job and her home to see what she would do.

There is absolutely nothing hard that befalls us that He hasn’t either permitted or caused. It is always, always, to grow our trust, to see what we will do - continue to trust or stop remaining in trust?

This is for smaller things too. He let Ron get a flat tire to see what he would do. Would he rage and complain at the circumstance or would he continue in trust, unaffected and unmoved to worry or complaint by his circumstance?

For every circumstance, I should be able to say, it is God. If it’s happening to me, it’s only happening because He either caused it or permitted it. Even if a man is throwing rocks at me, like with David when he said, leave the man alone, if he is throwing rocks at me it’s because God told him to and He hasn’t told me what He is doing.

If we could keep in our minds that there is never a time that God isn’t in full control of what befalls us, we would be able to say, even of a trip and broken arm, it is God. He has permitted it and will work it for my good and the good of my brothers and sisters.

I say “caused OR permitted” because God did not cause Joseph’s brothers to sell him to slave traders, (that was satan working in men) but He permitted it and He worked it to the good of keeping many alive in a famine decades later. We see the whole story of Joseph but what we aren’t shown is any of his inner struggle to grow to trust God so completely as he did.

Truthfully, we could not even so much as stub our toe unless God permitted it, and if we trusted enough to know this and stand firm in it, we would not be mad and yell at the person who left the item there that we stubbed our toe on. We would say, ouch, ouch, ouch, it is God.

 

[faithfulness]

Yes, I agree, it’s unbelief. Which brings me back to what I asked about men saying God calls some to more love while on earth. I can’t accept it. It’s an excuse for unbelief, which is the ONE thing God asks of us - to believe Him and trust Him, no matter our circumstance.

It says, He let them become very thirsty in the desert to see what they would do. You could take that and fit it to EVERY circumstance you find yourself in and ANY thing that befalls you. You could say, He let Jennie become very, very sick to see what she would do. Or, He let Bill lose a child to see what he would do. Or, he let Dan be thrown into a blazing furnace to see what he would do. Or, He let Phyllis lose her job and her home to see what she would do.

There is absolutely nothing hard that befalls us that He hasn’t either permitted or caused. It is always, always, to grow our trust, to see what we will do - continue to trust or stop remaining in trust?

This is for smaller things too. He let Ron get a flat tire to see what he would do. Would he rage and complain at the circumstance or would he continue in trust, unaffected and unmoved to worry or complaint by his circumstance?

For every circumstance, I should be able to say, it is God. If it’s happening to me, it’s only happening because He either caused it or permitted it. Even if a man is throwing rocks at me, like with David when he said, leave the man alone, if he is throwing rocks at me it’s because God told him to and He hasn’t told me what He is doing.

If we could keep in our minds that there is never a time that God isn’t in full control of what befalls us, we would be able to say, even of a trip and broken arm, it is God. He has permitted it and will work it for my good and the good of my brothers and sisters.

I say “caused OR permitted” because God did not cause Joseph’s brothers to sell him to slave traders, (that was satan working in men) but He permitted it and He worked it to the good of keeping many alive in a famine decades later. We see the whole story of Joseph but what we aren’t shown is any of his inner struggle to grow to trust God so completely as he did.

Truthfully, we could not even so much as stub our toe unless God permitted it, and if we trusted enough to know this and stand firm in it, we would not be mad and yell at the person who left the item there that we stubbed our toe on. We would say, ouch, ouch, ouch, it is God.

Your post left a lot of food-for-thought with a few personal questions and buts.
With semantics and a lot of agreement aside, I was challenged again to stand firm...

Also, thankyou John for your faithful inspired challenging posts.

Luv u guys…

Mashakim Tovah

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Your post left a lot of food-for-thought with a few personal questions and buts.
With semantics and a lot of agreement aside, I was challenged again to stand firm...

Also, thankyou John for your faithful inspired challenging posts.

Luv u guys…

Mashakim Tovah

Luv you too sister.
I’m always amazed when you speak! You are a very quiet one!
Tried to look up translation of mashakim Tovah. Couldn’t find it.

 

[faithfulness]

Luv you too sister.
I’m always amazed when you speak! You are a very quiet one!
Tried to look up translation of mashakim Tovah. Couldn’t find it.

While not the 'mouth' as you and John in His Body, this quote best describes my true condition...

"Many Christians seize some part of this world or some part of the self with so tight a grip that they spend their whole lives making only a snail’s progress toward their Center. Thank God, sometimes your Lord, out of His boundless love, strikes the burden violently from your hand. It is then that you realize just how very much you had been hindered and held back."

This quote is imagine...

"Drink My cup.
Drink My cup of aloneness.
My cup of solitude.
Drink My cup of solemnity.
But in the joy...
The joy in the manner of only Me."


Blessings Always

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No...it is the faith OF Christ...notice the little word...of.

I have already explained elsewhere that we can believe ON Jesus or INTO Jesus. The text in Romans 4 is about who will inhabit the NATIONS...not the New Jerusalem. The faith of Abraham is NOT the faith of Christ. We were held by the law UNTIL the faith OF Christ should be revealed.

“But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.” Gal. 3:23

That is the faith OF Christ. So if we have the faith of Abraham...we are still under the law. We are righteous because of a human faith...our faith....but we are not covered by the righteousness of God as individuals. Only those who walk in the Spirit are covered by Him in this way.

The righteous inherit the nations. They have put THEIR own faith in Christ, like almost modern believers. But the saints inherit rulership with Christ...the ones who walk in resurrection life in this world. These have put on the faith OF Christ to enter INTO Him. Paul is speaking of another standard that is called "the high calling in Christ", Modern believers see that as "the high calling in Abraham."

I think it would be helpful to expound on what faith in Christ and faith of Christ mean, in a way that would help people, practically. With examples of each.
Of course everyone knows by now that I prefer to use the word trust rather than faith. So my mind sees what you say as: put your trust in Christ as opposed to, have the same trust in God as Christ had.

 

[Episkopos]

I think it would be helpful to expound on what faith in Christ and faith of Christ mean, in a way that would help people, practically. With examples of each.
Of course everyone knows by now that I prefer to use the word trust rather than faith. So my mind sees what you say as: put your trust in Christ as opposed to, have the same trust in God as Christ had.

Faith can be equated to trust...and I like your way of saying that the faith OF Jesus is to have the same trust of the Father as He had.

But I see another dimension to faith. I see it as a key to a greater realm. If trust could be seen as defensive in nature, there is an aggressive aspect to faith that takes ground away from the enemy to capture it for the Lord. The Kingdom of God is entered into by a forceful faith that moves INTO intimacy with God. Trust implies that we wait on the Lord in a patient way...which IS very important. I think it comes down to there being a time for every purpose..and a measure of faith for every aspect of the walk in Christ.

Faith IN Christ or "over" Christ (Greek epi) is truly more one of trust and conformity to His will. Faith INTO or TO (Greek eis) is by a supernatural force that unlocks the power of a walk in resurrection life.

<><

 

[faithfulness]

Please forgive this lengthy post written many years ago that many of you have probably read. It is a transcription of a spoken word, hence, the sometimes-awkward relay. It has helped me understand the 'first dimension' to faith, to borrow Episkopis's words ... [italics bold mine].


The Most Difficult Thing in the World
by T. Austin-Sparks

I am going to speak for a little while on the most difficult thing in the world, that is, faith. So far as the Lord's people are concerned, it can be truly said that the whole of their life in every aspect - salvation in its first step and every subsequent step, spiritual growth, spiritual sustenance, spiritual victory, spiritual work and service, fellowship with the Lord and ultimate glory is all resolved into one thing and that one thing is faith. Faith is the key to everything in our relationship to the Lord. It is all just a question of faith - not faith as something in itself, but faith in God. That is something which has to be faced and as far as possible at any point, settled; but it is not a thing which is settled once and for all. There has to be a settlement made again and again on this point.

We are really continually confronted with this question; in the presence of new situations and trials and perplexities and seeming contradictions, am I going to believe God or not, am I going to repose faith in Him or not, am I going to trust the Lord or not?

That is true all the way along, and it always will be so. And sometimes those testings are very, very acute and severe. A brother wrote to me this week, one who has been greatly used of the Lord in other lands as well as in this one, who knows the Lord, and has a very real walk with the Lord, and he just put this in his letter. "It sometimes seems as though the Lord is a thousand miles away and has no interest whatever in me. It sometimes seems as though He has just cut me off". You may think that is very extreme, but some of you will not. You know quite well that such experiences are true to the life of a child of God. I was saying that this is something that has to be faced. That is the life to which we are called. The Lord has not covered it, has not veiled it, hidden it from us. We are called unto a life of faith, and we had better face it; and then we must, as far as possible, if we are going to get through, settle it, for I repeat there is no step or stage or aspect of the life of the child of God from first to last, from the beginning to the end that is not a matter of faith. Well, that is a fact, and let us be quite honest about it, and quite frank with ourselves. That is the situation. It will help to a very large extent if we have looked this thing straight in the face and not shelved it, not tried to evade it, but accepted it.

 

[faithfulness]

But we want to get inside of this matter of faith, and here in this letter to the Hebrews which is, as you know, from start to finish, a letter on the matter of faith, we have amongst others one very helpful clue and key to faith. It is in this fourth chapter. You may not think that it really is a matter of faith for it does not seem to lie on the face of it, but when you examine it, you find that that is the thing that it is touching - this strange, somewhat technical language - "For the word of God is living and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit". You will notice that that statement begins with a 'for', and that 'for' links you with Israel in the wilderness failing to enter into rest. It is said that they had the Gospel preached to them, but the word spoken did not profit, not being mixed or united by FAITH. It did not profit, not being united by FAITH. Then there follows, "I sware in my wrath, they shall not enter into my rest". They could not enter in because of unbelief. Then more about the rest and their failure to enter in, and then - 'FOR the word of God divides between soul and spirit'. This is the key to faith, or a key to faith. What is it? It is the conquest of the soul, and that is said to explain the whole of the wilderness failure and the subsequent not entering into the rest.

 

[faithfulness]

You know what soul is. I am not going to stay with soul and spirit very much. We know in this matter that the soul is the self-conscious life. By our souls we are conscious of ourselves and other people and all that world of things here. Spirit is just the God-conscious life. By our spirit we are conscious of God Who is Spirit, and all that realm. Self-conscious and God-conscious life, and because those two things were not defined, put apart and recognised in their difference, but allowed to overlap and bring about a state of confusion, they did not enter in. They failed because of unbelief. Well, what does that amount to? The self-conscious life predominated, and the God-conscious life did not predominate, was made subject and subservient. In other words, for them, everything was a matter of how self was affected by the situation and by the prospect. You find them again and again full of enthusiasm, full of zeal, full of what looked like real interest in the things of the Lord. Oh yes, they were going on, they were full of apparently real devotion to the Lord. But that was when the situation was pleasing them and when the prospect was presented so that it brought a great sense of possibilities for them, prospects for them, and their gratification. Oh, this is fine, this is good; tell us more about this wonderful land to which we are going, keep telling us about all its glorious wonders, and resources; go on, we are most interested in this, we are in for that! But it was all soul, self-conscious self-interest, self-gratification. And when there arose some situation, either present or in relation to that prospect which made it a matter of denying, sacrificing self, letting go self-interests, and having to face up to a very difficult situation which was going to be very costly to them, they were not so interested; their zeal went, and unbelief rose up; it was there and it rose up. They were not so concerned about this thing now, it was not now for them. What was it for? It was for the Lord ONLY first, and their interests were entirely eclipsed. They would only come into their inheritance when the Lord got His. The Lord first;

"Seek ye first his kingdom and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you" (Matt. 6:33), and that putting first often meant a letting go of everything personal.

 

[amadeus]

He gives us whatever suffering He gives to each of us to teach us the obedience of trust and the firm endurance of trust and to conform us to Himself. He works it to our good. What form of suffering doesn’t really matter, it only matters that He will work it to our good and the good of our brothers and sisters. We don’t choose our sufferings. We learn to rejoice in our sufferings when we see the good He works through them, but we do not choose them.

Amen!

 

[faithfulness]

Does not that get right to the heart of this thing? What is disappointment to us? Can we always say that disappointment which we think is disappointment with the Lord and over His things is because we did so much want the Lord to have what He wanted irrespective of our interests at all; we were prepared to let everything go, WE were not mixed up in this thing somehow? In the Lord getting what He wants, we see ourselves figuring in some way. It has to be a very sharp instrument that gets in between those two things and defines them because they are so mixed up. Is it not true that faith wavers, weakens and ofttimes goes right down and under when in the way of the Lord's interests OURSELVES are entirely shut out?

What is the key to faith then? The key to faith is this dividing of soul and spirit, or, in other words, it is the complete abnegation of self-interests - not in the Buddhist sense of annihilation, but in the sense of God's interests becoming positive and predominant. That is where the battle of faith rages; it rages upon that ground always. If we were so utterly - and not one of us really is - if we were so utterly consumed for the Lord's interests alone that no other interest in our lives had any precedence or power to govern us, we would be in victory all the time. It is this completely disinterested concern for what the Lord wants that is the key to faith. If Israel in the wilderness had taken this attitude - Well, this is a very difficult experience, but the Lord is after something, the Lord wants something, and He evidently knows that that is the best way to get it; all right, I am with Him, I may lose everything, I may suffer the loss of all things, but it is what the Lord wants that matters. The Lord wants us in that land; well, if it means everything, to be there for the Lord's pleasure, that is the thing that matters - if that had been their attitude, do you think they would have journeyed forty years in the wilderness round and round, do you think at the border of the land they would have been turned back to perish in the wilderness? You can see in the consummation, that next generation which did go in, went in on this matter of faith only. The whole story is based upon faith.

 

[faithfulness]

There is the faith of Rahab the harlot; her faith was the key to the land - Jericho. Then there was the faith of going round six days in silence and on the seventh the shout of faith, without drawing a sword or turning a hand to do anything but go round - ridiculous! It is all such utter faith. They went up and possessed on that basis. That generation did enter in because of faith, whereas the generation before did not enter in because of unbelief. But this generation went up because Joshua and Caleb had said, "If the Lord delight in us, He will bring us in" (Num. 14:8). That is the matter - it is the delight of the Lord, perfectly disinterested concern for what the Lord wants, and that is one of the most difficult things in life, to get this self out of the way.

So, just finally, a little word on the result of faith. First of all, of course, it is rest. We are not now thinking of some future rest, some future land, whatever our hymn writers have to say about it. You read again this fourth chapter of the letter to the Hebrews, and you see "We who have believed do enter into that rest". Some of us have already entered in, says the Apostle. God defines a day - it is not the future - and some of us do enter in. This rest is not a time period, it is a state, and the Apostle says here so clearly that entering into rest is simply a matter of entering into a settled faith in God. You know quite well that however doctrinal and technical this may seem, it is very true. We can prove it almost any day of our lives. When we get to the place where we put ourselves and what we would like on one side and accept the Lord's will - not just resignedly saying Well, if that is what the Lord wants, I capitulate; if I could have it otherwise, I would, but this is evidently what the Lord wants: but if with all our heart we accept it and enter into this with the Lord to co-operate with Him, when we come there, rest enters into our souls, our souls come to rest, on all sorts of things, small and great.

Then victory comes because faith is power. If the Word of God is strong and clear about one thing, it is about this. Oh, faith is power. First of all, it is power with God. What is more powerful with God than to be well-pleasing to Him, and that is why I read about Enoch. "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God". That is all centered in and made to rest upon faith. "Without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him". Surely that is our ambition above all - to be well-pleasing unto Him. How? - to believe Him, to trust Him, to repose faith in Him, to be well-pleasing unto Him. It is power with God. We can consider that along the other line, that our weakness with the Lord is always found in our reservation, our question, our doubt, our uncertainty. That is our weakness with God, and the Lord waits.