Gay Marriage

[Wormwood]

Again, I agree. My main concern is over having the opposite effect by doing things like trying to deny gays basic civil rights (protection from discrimination in employment for example). Or when I share what the Bible says to a gay person and they say "This is who I am. It's as much a part of me as heterosexuality is to you. It's not something I can just decide to change." Do we tell them "Well, you're wrong" and act like we know their innermost feelings better than they do? IMO, that would drive them further away from God.

IMO, the best thing to do is not focus so much on their homosexuality. I don't do that with other non-Christians. I don't confront a fat person about gluttony. I don't confront a rich person about greed. I don't confront an egotist about pride. I instead try and focus on the positive aspects of our faith, and emulate what I believe to be Christ-like behavior and love.

Well, not sure I wholly agree on that. What if my "innermost feelings" cause me to want to go to clubs and have one night stands every night of the week? I would hope a Christian friend would direct me away from that sort of lifestyle. To suggest that their disapproval of my lifestyle would push me farther from God is an error. Jesus, himself, proclaimed, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." Telling people to repent and turn their sinful behaviors around is going to lead them farther from God? Come on.

A couple of issues with the last part. First, you don't have major segments of Christianity arguing for pro-guttony and even churches that promote such issues. Second, I would hope that you would confront people about their sin. The big issue here is that many think they can be "Christian" and live such a lifestyle. Its one thing if the person does not profess to be Christian. Its quite another if they do and live in such a manner.

The "positive" elements of our faith are that it leads people to God and away from self-destructive behaviors that bring God's wrath. If we choose to ignore this aspect, then we will have more of what we have today....people who make Christianity about meeting their needs rather than a death to self for the cause of Christ. We have enough of the former and it will do nothing to make an impact for Christ in this world.

 

[River Jordan]

Well, not sure I wholly agree on that. What if my "innermost feelings" cause me to want to go to clubs and have one night stands every night of the week? I would hope a Christian friend would direct me away from that sort of lifestyle.

I'm not expressing myself well enough. Let me try this...

In one of my interactions with a gay person, he says to me "This is fundamental part of who I am as much as heterosexuality is a fundamental part of who you are. I can't start being attracted to women any more than you can." So what am I supposed to say? Tell him he has to be celibate the rest of his life? He can no longer love anyone romantically? If I try and disagree and say "Oh yes, you can change your orientation", that's a pretty big insult. I'm basically saying I know his "feelings" better than he does.

To suggest that their disapproval of my lifestyle would push me farther from God is an error. Jesus, himself, proclaimed, "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand." Telling people to repent and turn their sinful behaviors around is going to lead them farther from God? Come on.

See above.

A couple of issues with the last part. First, you don't have major segments of Christianity arguing for pro-guttony and even churches that promote such issues.

I see a lot of obese people in churches and I know of a lot of pot lucks where overeating isn't even addressed as an issue. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a major Christian political or social movement against gluttony or greed?

Second, I would hope that you would confront people about their sin. The big issue here is that many think they can be "Christian" and live such a lifestyle. Its one thing if the person does not profess to be Christian. Its quite another if they do and live in such a manner.

How do you do that without coming across as self-righteous and judgmental? That's one of the factors cited in the surveys of young people who leave the faith.

The "positive" elements of our faith are that it leads people to God and away from self-destructive behaviors that bring God's wrath. If we choose to ignore this aspect, then we will have more of what we have today....people who make Christianity about meeting their needs rather than a death to self for the cause of Christ. We have enough of the former and it will do nothing to make an impact for Christ in this world.

I don't think you understood what I meant. The positive aspects of our faith are God's unconditional love, the unbelievable sacrifice of Christ, loving our enemies, our dedication to social service and helping the poor as Christ directed....that's what I was talking about. Show and talk about all those things often enough and people start to think "I want some of that".

 

[Wormwood]

I'm not expressing myself well enough. Let me try this...

In one of my interactions with a gay person, he says to me "This is fundamental part of who I am as much as heterosexuality is a fundamental part of who you are. I can't start being attracted to women any more than you can." So what am I supposed to say? Tell him he has to be celibate the rest of his life? He can no longer love anyone romantically? If I try and disagree and say "Oh yes, you can change your orientation", that's a pretty big insult. I'm basically saying I know his "feelings" better than he does.

My response would be something like, "I understand what you are saying. However, I want you to see that "who you are" is a person who has been hand-crafted by a God who loves them. Who you are is far more than your desires or attractions. You were made for God. All I know is if you will give everything you are to Christ, then you will find true life. Part of giving our lives over to him is to surrender those things he asks us to surrender. We are all called to lay down our lives in surrender. I believe homosexual relationships is one of those things we are called to lay at the feet of Jesus. I believe this identity is hindering you from finding the life and identity Jesus wants you to have that is what you are really hungering for.

I see a lot of obese people in churches and I know of a lot of pot lucks where overeating isn't even addressed as an issue. Seriously, when was the last time you saw a major Christian political or social movement against gluttony or greed?

Are you proposing that we should not say anything about sexual sin because we don't say enough about greed and gluttony? Im failing to see your point here. All service to sin prevents us from serving the Lord. Hopefully we would be calling all of those close to us to give up their vices in order to fully serve Christ.

How do you do that without coming across as self-righteous and judgmental? That's one of the factors cited in the surveys of young people who leave the faith.

See above. I also like to share personal testimony. I'll talk about my sin and things I gave up to surrender to Christ. It seems scary and as if we cannot live without the things that have a hold on our lives. I have found that everything I have surrendered something I thought I could not live without to Jesus, I found great freedom. The reality is, those in homosexual lifestyles are hurting and empty. If we really love them, we will call them to embrace life that is really life. This can be done in a loving way. The opposite of love is not hate...its indifference. To say nothing or ignore the issues that are leading to their eternal judgment is the opposite of love. If we really love them, we would establish relationships with them and out of concern, urge them toward the call of Christ.

 

[RANDOR]

We are where we are today form our past Christians............apathetic all the way.........as satan rises Christians have layed down.
A war is coming.........very shortly where the Christian will have to fight for all things past and all at one time.

This coming war........which looks like satan has the upper hand.........If the Christian does not take the stand they needed to in years past.

As the homosexual comes out of the closet with a smile..(trading Places)....the Christian enters that closet defeated.

85% of the American people say they believe in God...........well..........someone has to be lying

Because.................America sure doesn't look that way.

of course the bible never said it was going to get better.

Come Lord Jesus

 

[River Jordan]

My response would be something like, "I understand what you are saying. However, I want you to see that "who you are" is a person who has been hand-crafted by a God who loves them. Who you are is far more than your desires or attractions. You were made for God. All I know is if you will give everything you are to Christ, then you will find true life. Part of giving our lives over to him is to surrender those things he asks us to surrender. We are all called to lay down our lives in surrender. I believe homosexual relationships is one of those things we are called to lay at the feet of Jesus. I believe this identity is hindering you from finding the life and identity Jesus wants you to have that is what you are really hungering for.

I'm picturing this person responding, What does that mean? If I am saved I will no longer be gay? Or if I'm saved I'll still be gay but have to be celibate and can never have a romantic relationship my entire life?

Are you proposing that we should not say anything about sexual sin because we don't say enough about greed and gluttony? Im failing to see your point here. All service to sin prevents us from serving the Lord. Hopefully we would be calling all of those close to us to give up their vices in order to fully serve Christ.

I'm saying that American Christians have really over-focused on homosexuality, while at the same time turning a blind eye to other sins (gluttony) or even embracing them (greed). That makes us look outrageously hypocritical and hateful, which the data shows drives people away.

See above. I also like to share personal testimony. I'll talk about my sin and things I gave up to surrender to Christ.

But what are they giving up? They swear with all sincerity that it's as impossible for them to give up being attracted to members of the same sex as it is for you or I to give up being attracted to members of the opposite sex. What if someone gay says they surrendered to Christ, but they're still gay? What if they say there's no way they're going to be celibate or not ever be in a romantic relationship? I know what I'd say if someone told me it was either celibacy or you can't be a Christian.

It seems scary and as if we cannot live without the things that have a hold on our lives. I have found that everything I have surrendered something I thought I could not live without to Jesus, I found great freedom. The reality is, those in homosexual lifestyles are hurting and empty.

Really? Do you say that to a gay couple who love and are committed to each other? "Your relationship is empty"?

If we really love them, we will call them to embrace life that is really life. This can be done in a loving way. The opposite of love is not hate...its indifference. To say nothing or ignore the issues that are leading to their eternal judgment is the opposite of love. If we really love them, we would establish relationships with them and out of concern, urge them toward the call of Christ.

But we can't ignore the real-time consequences of what we're saying to them. Be celibate or you can't be a Christian.

Don't underestimate how unbelievably big an ask that is.

 

[Wormwood]

I'm picturing this person responding, What does that mean? If I am saved I will no longer be gay? Or if I'm saved I'll still be gay but have to be celibate and can never have a romantic relationship my entire life?

Jesus told his disciples that marriage was to be with one man and one woman for all of their lives. This shocked the disciples and they said it would be better not to get married. Jesus responded that those who can embrace it should, while others are eunuchs for the kingdom. River, the point here is that if we do not call people to surrender in their coming to Christ, we are not calling them to Christ. Making Christ Lord means we live to serve him in everything. Christianity without repentance is not the Christianity of the Bible. I have had these conversations with friends who are homosexual. They still view me as a friend and have conversations with me. As Proverbs says, "Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses." I think many Christians have unwittingly become enemies of the homosexual community by their silence on this issue.

I'm saying that American Christians have really over-focused on homosexuality, while at the same time turning a blind eye to other sins (gluttony) or even embracing them (greed). That makes us look outrageously hypocritical and hateful, which the data shows drives people away.

I would disagree. I think the media and the cultural sensitivities on this issue have placed a microscope over every objection to this lifestyle. Moreover, I think this is an issue because it is one in which the church is torn by cultural pressures. Yes, Christians are also greedy, but I hear about greed every week when it comes to offering meditations. I also hear tons of messages about money management and generosity. I guarantee I could pull up some of the most biblical and well-renown conservative preachers of our day and look through their last 5 years of messages and find 10x the sermons on giving and generosity than I would on homosexuality. I personally know many pastors who have homosexual couples coming to their churches for months and years. These pastors are afraid to discuss the issue with the couple and don't even know if the couple claims to be Christian or not. Meanwhile, congregations have men and women couples holding hands in the pews and entire denominations are afraid to speak up. I don't recall Paul ever saying to cast someone out of the church because they eat too much. However, there are passages about casting people out of the church over issues of sexual immorality. It is an issue of incredible importance and one in which very little teaching is done. Most Christians are turning to political answers rather than teaching...because its easier to pass a law than to confront the issue from the pulpit or in person.

But what are they giving up? They swear with all sincerity that it's as impossible for them to give up being attracted to members of the same sex as it is for you or I to give up being attracted to members of the opposite sex. What if someone gay says they surrendered to Christ, but they're still gay? What if they say there's no way they're going to be celibate or not ever be in a romantic relationship? I know what I'd say if someone told me it was either celibacy or you can't be a Christian.

Well, I would disagree with all sincerity. I believe God is in the business of changing hearts. God causes hearts to love what he loves. The Spirit brings inner renewal when we truly surrender to him. I used to be a lusting, filthy mouthed, drunk. The desires for these things did not go away overnight...or even in all entirety. But my desire for booze, women and coarse joking has completely changed throughout my Christian life. In any event, the Christian life is a struggle and a fight. We are called to fight the good fight of the faith. We call people to live by faith, not by their flesh.

I am not suggesting we tell people to live differently because of a whim. As you know, God's Word is clear on this subject. Are you saying you would be unwilling to give up something the Bible clearly teaches as sin if you had homosexual predispositions? I would submit to you that such an attitude and a mindset is contrary to true discipleship. Jesus told his followers to give up everything to follow him. If someone is unwilling to follow Christ then they are not his disciples. I think you sadly underestimate the call of discipleship as well as the power of God to renew and transform a surrendered heart.

Really? Do you say that to a gay couple who love and are committed to each other? "Your relationship is empty"?

I don't tell them "their relationship is empty." However, I know that a life lived in disobedience to the desires and plan of God leaves a person empty and hollow. I've been there. I think we all have. The richest people in the world commit suicide because the things this world claims will give your life value and significance do not. We all know this. The issue of homosexuality is no different. Did you know the average male homosexual will have 500 partners? Most homosexuals will also admit that their "committed relationships" are far from monogamous. Even if a particular couple breaks the norm, such a lifestyle is contrary to the life that Jesus offers. Im surprised at your stance. Its like you want to say such a life is sinful, but at the same time..don't say anything to them. How can we expect them to give it up? Its wrong to address it or see it as destructive. I'm kinda at a loss for words here at your approach to this.

But we can't ignore the real-time consequences of what we're saying to them. Be celibate or you can't be a Christian.

Don't underestimate how unbelievably big an ask that is.

First, there are many homosexual people who come to Christ and then end up in heterosexual relationships. Second, Jesus was not afraid to ask people to give up a great amount in order to follow him. I believe he said things like, "hate your own life," "sell everything you have," "take up your cross." Are you suggesting asking someone to give up a depraved sexual act is asking more than to tell a first century Jew to take up a Roman cross?

In the world it calls itself Tolerance, but in Hell it is called Despair. It is the accomplice of the other sins and their worst punishment. It is the sin which believes nothing, cares for nothing, loves nothing, hates nothing, finds purpose in nothing, lives for nothing, and only remains alive because there is nothing it would die for. (Dorothy Sayers as quoted by Charles Colson, The Good Life, 119-20)

 

[HymnSeeker]

Nothing like nit-picking the constitution to justify and protect actions that are egregious to God. It wouldn't make any difference to me if all the founding fathers were in homosexual relationships and wrote in favor of such things. It doesn't make it right, nor does it make the behavior worth defending. Why cant we focus on the issues that build believers up rather than protecting actions that grieve God?

I agree. It should also be noted that :

2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

We live in that time. If you are a Christian and you think the Bible says gay marriage and homosexuality is permissible, I would invite you to do some serious reflection on your faith to evaluate whether you are following God or satan.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

I can't stress enough that cultural conformity has always been the one temptation that's worked best to compromise Christianity both in the days of the Bible, the early Church, and today. Christians should know by instinct that those who propose conformity to the world don't belong to Christ, even if they claim to be Christian. We've been warned "You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God?" (James 4:4) Those who propose we become like the culture around us are on an errand from someone other than a holy God.

So how is it that the forces of perversion have made such inroads into the Christian Church except that we've been lulled into sleepy complacency. Wake up! Lift high the standard! For we have been "called out of darkness and into His wonderful light." (1Peter 2:9) We cast off works of iniquity and we clothe ourselves in righteousness, to be a light to a benighted world pining away in sin and anguish.

Are we not Christians?

 

[Madad21]

So what did God say about marriage? Rumor has it that Adam was married to a man; but what, a lie you say?

So is God behind you when you say that God made Adam and Eve?

Does the Bible stand behind you in defence of that truth?

Paul says in 1 Tim 2:14
"...Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

All I say to all that marry is that I hope you find the happiness you seek.

You crack me up dude

 

[River Jordan]

Jesus told his disciples that marriage was to be with one man and one woman for all of their lives. This shocked the disciples and they said it would be better not to get married. Jesus responded that those who can embrace it should, while others are eunuchs for the kingdom. River, the point here is that if we do not call people to surrender in their coming to Christ, we are not calling them to Christ. Making Christ Lord means we live to serve him in everything. Christianity without repentance is not the Christianity of the Bible. I have had these conversations with friends who are homosexual. They still view me as a friend and have conversations with me. As Proverbs says, "Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses." I think many Christians have unwittingly become enemies of the homosexual community by their silence on this issue.

But that doesn't answer the question.

I would disagree. I think the media and the cultural sensitivities on this issue have placed a microscope over every objection to this lifestyle. Moreover, I think this is an issue because it is one in which the church is torn by cultural pressures. Yes, Christians are also greedy, but I hear about greed every week when it comes to offering meditations. I also hear tons of messages about money management and generosity. I guarantee I could pull up some of the most biblical and well-renown conservative preachers of our day and look through their last 5 years of messages and find 10x the sermons on giving and generosity than I would on homosexuality. I personally know many pastors who have homosexual couples coming to their churches for months and years. These pastors are afraid to discuss the issue with the couple and don't even know if the couple claims to be Christian or not. Meanwhile, congregations have men and women couples holding hands in the pews and entire denominations are afraid to speak up. I don't recall Paul ever saying to cast someone out of the church because they eat too much. However, there are passages about casting people out of the church over issues of sexual immorality. It is an issue of incredible importance and one in which very little teaching is done. Most Christians are turning to political answers rather than teaching...because its easier to pass a law than to confront the issue from the pulpit or in person.

Do I need to start posting the outrageously hateful stuff about gays from Focus on the Family, Family Research Council, and other Christian groups? And these aren't fringe Christian groups either. Juxtapose that against all the Christians celebrating wealth and greed.

Well, I would disagree with all sincerity. I believe God is in the business of changing hearts. God causes hearts to love what he loves. The Spirit brings inner renewal when we truly surrender to him. I used to be a lusting, filthy mouthed, drunk. The desires for these things did not go away overnight...or even in all entirety. But my desire for booze, women and coarse joking has completely changed throughout my Christian life. In any event, the Christian life is a struggle and a fight. We are called to fight the good fight of the faith. We call people to live by faith, not by their flesh.

So you're basically saying if a gay person is saved, they will no longer be attracted to members of the same sex. Thus, if they believe they are saved but don't have this change, they aren't really saved.

I don't tell them "their relationship is empty."

Why not? You've expressed that here as well as said that we should speak up on sin.

Did you know the average male homosexual will have 500 partners? Most homosexuals will also admit that their "committed relationships" are far from monogamous. Even if a particular couple breaks the norm, such a lifestyle is contrary to the life that Jesus offers. Im surprised at your stance. Its like you want to say such a life is sinful, but at the same time..don't say anything to them. How can we expect them to give it up? Its wrong to address it or see it as destructive. I'm kinda at a loss for words here at your approach to this.

It's this sort of hateful misinformation that fuels so much of the distrust gays have towards Christians. And that gets back to the point I've been raising about Christianity's over-focus on homosexuality...why do Christian groups spend so much time and money generating bogus studies in an attempt to demonize gay people?

First, there are many homosexual people who come to Christ and then end up in heterosexual relationships.

How many?

 

[Madad21]

Do I need to start posting the outrageously hateful stuff about gays from Focus on the Family, Family Research Council, and other Christian groups?

A portion of an article posted by Focus on the Family on if your adult child tells you their gay.

"Stephen Arterburn, best-selling author and respected Christian psychologist, says many parents of homosexual children withhold love and affection because they're afraid to appear approving of the gay lifestyle. The truth is that your child needs unconditional love and acceptance more than ever. Withholding love will only make a difficult situation worse. Remember that acceptance is not the same thing as approval. Acceptance means acknowledging what is true. It does not mean you must compromise your convictions about what constitutes right and wrong, nor does it mean you condone homosexual behavior and practices.

Chances are your son or daughter wrestled long and hard with the decision to confess their homosexuality to you. They braced for judgment and rejection. That's why it's all the more important you let them know they are valued and loved as much as ever." (http://www.focusonthefamily.com/parenting/parenting_roles/parenting-adult-children/responding-in-love-to-an-adult-gay-child.aspx)

Theres many more like this, Focus on the Family deals with homosexuality in the family environment and the impact it has in the family unit and how as Christians we can approach these situations as they are presented to us.


Here is the Family Research Council's veiw on Homosexuality

"Family Research Council believes that homosexual conduct is harmful to the persons who engage in it and to society at large, and can never be affirmed. It is by definition unnatural, and as such is associated with negative physical and psychological health effects. While the origins of same-sex attractions may be complex, there is no convincing evidence that a homosexual identity is ever something genetic or inborn. We oppose the vigorous efforts of homosexual activists to demand that homosexuality be accepted as equivalent to heterosexuality in law, in the media, and in schools. Attempts to join two men or two women in "marriage" constitute a radical redefinition and falsification of the institution, and FRC supports state and federal constitutional amendments to prevent such redefinition by courts or legislatures. Sympathy must be extended to those who struggle with unwanted same-sex attractions, and every effort should be made to assist such persons to overcome those attractions, as many already have." (http://www.frc.org/homosexuality)

Has the family council said anything wrong or unbiblical here?
where is this incriminating stance you imply with either of these organisations?

It's this sort of hateful misinformation that fuels so much of the distrust gays have towards Christians. And that gets back to the point I've been raising about Christianity's over-focus on homosexuality...why do Christian groups spend so much time and money generating bogus studies in an attempt to demonize gay people?

Oh come on any Christian study on the gay lifestyle would come up as demonizing in fact a christian study in to pretty much anything secular would.
Any study be it independent secular or otherwise in to the impacts of Gay relationships would turn up worms in the soil you cant just single out those nasty Christians.

So you're basically saying if a gay person is saved, they will no longer be attracted to members of the same sex. Thus, if they believe they are saved but don't have this change, they aren't really saved.

Weather or not that what he meant I would have to say yes.

If its Christ we seek its Christ we get, if we are in sin we are convicted that is if its Christ we seek and we work on our sins, its a little thing called repentance.
If there is no conviction then that person does not seek Christ, but has instead exchange the truth for a lie.
Its a hard fact, but its a fact nonetheless, Jesus said "not all who say Lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven" (Matt 7:21)
There is likely to be many homosexuals out there not struggling with their sin sitting in church, but sitting in church does not make you a follower of Christ.

Why would wormwood say that a gay person once saved would not be attracted to the same sex?

Of course they would, do you still have sinful desires? why do you put words in his mouth, I didnt get that from what he said.
We all have burdens to carry in this life, and we are told that we do not need to bare them on our own.
Just because something feels good or right does not make it either of those things, the word of God convicts us and even if we are miserable our entire lives until the day we die miserably. then thats what we have to do, its what separates the sheep from the goats. Its not easy and it takes a lifetime, thankfully we have a graceful patient Savour who sees our struggle and sees us through until the end. The real life comes when we die.

 

[Wormwood]

But that doesn't answer the question.

You think in terms of "saved" (a term Jesus and the Apostles didn't really use). I use the term disciple. We are called to make disciples...not make people "saved." You are stuck on what a person can do or not do and still find themselves among the "saved." This is not what discipleship is about. It is about following Christ and surrendering ones life. Its not about what I can get away with and still find myself in heaven. This mentality still puts the focus on the individual and their desires rather than striving to honor their Lord as a true disciple.

Do I need to start posting the outrageously hateful stuff about gays from Focus on the Family, Family Research Council, and other Christian groups? And these aren't fringe Christian groups either. Juxtapose that against all the Christians celebrating wealth and greed.

Lets not beat down straw men in this discussion. No one is saying anything about being outrageously hateful to anyone. Every time we come to the crux of the matter on the issue on how we should deal with homosexuality, you jump to the extreme as rationale for not doing or saying anything at all. I think there is a middle ground between not saying anything and not expecting anything from a homosexual person and being hateful and bitter towards them. Lets find a middle ground between United Church of Christ and Fred Phelps...shall we? Im not asking you to say hateful things..im just saying we shouldn't say nothing at all, or defend such behaviors as "rights." Is that too much to ask?

So you're basically saying if a gay person is saved, they will no longer be attracted to members of the same sex. Thus, if they believe they are saved but don't have this change, they aren't really saved.

I didn't say that at all. Where are you getting this stuff? I am saying that God changes hearts. Stop thinking about lust and flesh for a moment will you? Is it possible for God to fill the hole in a person's life that they are trying to fill with homosexual unions? The same could be true of heterosexual ones in which a person bounces from partner to partner seeking love and affection. Those who find life in the Lord will be satisfied. As I said, this may not take away sinful desires in their entirety. However, someone who is being filled with the Lord will not seek as much to be filled with other things.

Why not? You've expressed that here as well as said that we should speak up on sin.

Come on River. You sound like a politician. Lets forgo the rhetoric shall we? Yes, we speak up on sin. We can do it in a way that focuses on the person rather than their sin. I would talk to a homosexual the same way I would talk to an alcoholic. I don't sit down and berate them about their desire for booze. But neither do I simple ignore their alcoholism as inconsequential to discipleship.

It's this sort of hateful misinformation that fuels so much of the distrust gays have towards Christians. And that gets back to the point I've been raising about Christianity's over-focus on homosexuality...why do Christian groups spend so much time and money generating bogus studies in an attempt to demonize gay people?

Its not bogus misinformation and Im not being hateful. It simply a matter of fact. I have done missions work among the homosexual community in Chicago and I have cousins who are homosexuals. I've been in their clubs and spoken with them in great detail on such matters. Ive been in gay bars doing missions work where there is homosexual porn being played on dozens of TVs throughout the bar. I've also been in heterosexual clubs, and I can tell you, there is a marked difference between the two. I know what I have been around, the stories I have been told and about the lifestyle my family members lead. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't imply that I am a liar.

How many?

River, you can play these word games all day long to be silent on the issue or even defend it. I'm not interested. Clearly you are more interested in nit-picking the church and beating up the bride of Christ on her missteps than you are grieved about the wickedness of our culture and its embrace of things that bring eternal separation from God. If you want to continue to portray homosexuals as innocent victims who cannot help their behavior and are martyrs among the vicious and hateful Christians, then I think this speaks volumes about your heart. As I said before, many Christians have and continue to approach this issue the wrong way and that is very unfortunate. However, it is a grievous sin and a life that is incompatible with being a disciple of Christ. It saddens me that you are more interested in upholding the cause of those who act in ways that bring God's wrath than you are interested in making true disciples for Jesus Christ.

 

[River Jordan]

You think in terms of "saved" (a term Jesus and the Apostles didn't really use). I use the term disciple. We are called to make disciples...not make people "saved." You are stuck on what a person can do or not do and still find themselves among the "saved." This is not what discipleship is about. It is about following Christ and surrendering ones life. Its not about what I can get away with and still find myself in heaven. This mentality still puts the focus on the individual and their desires rather than striving to honor their Lord as a true disciple.

You're still not answering the question. Since you and I last posted, I shared our discussion with a gay friend of mine. He still has the same question I do...are you saying that if a gay person is to be a disciple of Christ, they either have to no longer be attracted to members of the same sex, or they have to be celibate their whole lives?

He, and every other gay person I've ever spoken to, insists that the former is as impossible as you or I no longer being attracted to members of the opposite sex, so that leaves the latter (celibacy). Is that what Christianity demands of gays?

Lets not beat down straw men in this discussion. No one is saying anything about being outrageously hateful to anyone. Every time we come to the crux of the matter on the issue on how we should deal with homosexuality, you jump to the extreme as rationale for not doing or saying anything at all.

Where have I advocated "not doing or saying anything at all"? Please show specifically where I've said that.

I think there is a middle ground between not saying anything and not expecting anything from a homosexual person and being hateful and bitter towards them. Lets find a middle ground between United Church of Christ and Fred Phelps...shall we? Im not asking you to say hateful things..im just saying we shouldn't say nothing at all, or defend such behaviors as "rights." Is that too much to ask?

Again I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I've never defended anyone's behaviors as "rights". The specific issues of rights that I've discussed have to do with civil rights granted by law, and the fact that there is no legal justification for denying gay people these civil rights.

I didn't say that at all. Where are you getting this stuff? I am saying that God changes hearts.

Both of us have the same question: What specifically do you mean by "God changes hearts" in the context of this discussion?

Stop thinking about lust and flesh for a moment will you? Is it possible for God to fill the hole in a person's life that they are trying to fill with homosexual unions? The same could be true of heterosexual ones in which a person bounces from partner to partner seeking love and affection. Those who find life in the Lord will be satisfied. As I said, this may not take away sinful desires in their entirety. However, someone who is being filled with the Lord will not seek as much to be filled with other things.

This is the sort of approach that immediately puts gays on the defensive. Look at the underlying assumptions in what you said....gays are about "lust and flesh" and every gay just bounces around from partner to partner. To my gay friend, his relationship with his boyfriend is about love the same as heterosexual relationships are, and his boyfriend is the only sexual partner he's ever had. Do you just automatically assume every gay person is a sex-crazed deviant who will do anything with anyone who will let them?

Come on River. You sound like a politician. Lets forgo the rhetoric shall we? Yes, we speak up on sin. We can do it in a way that focuses on the person rather than their sin. I would talk to a homosexual the same way I would talk to an alcoholic. I don't sit down and berate them about their desire for booze. But neither do I simple ignore their alcoholism as inconsequential to discipleship.

And do you think a gay person who is in a committed relationship responds positively to having his relationship compared to an alcoholic's with booze?

Its not bogus misinformation and Im not being hateful. It simply a matter of fact.

Yes, those are bogus studies that were deliberately ginned up to cast gays in a negative light. What sort of profile of heterosexuals do you think would be generated if we surveyed prostitutes and their johns? Do you think that would accurately reflect on the heterosexual community?

I have done missions work among the homosexual community in Chicago and I have cousins who are homosexuals. I've been in their clubs and spoken with them in great detail on such matters. Ive been in gay bars doing missions work where there is homosexual porn being played on dozens of TVs throughout the bar. I've also been in heterosexual clubs, and I can tell you, there is a marked difference between the two. I know what I have been around, the stories I have been told and about the lifestyle my family members lead. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't imply that I am a liar.

I don't think you're a liar, you've just been duped by bogus "studies" (in much the same way young-earth creationists get duped by bogus "science"). And do you think straight people don't watch porn? Are you aware that the state with the highest online porn viewership is Utah? Or that the more conservative and religious a state is, the higher its rate of porn consumption?

Should we therefore conclude that all Mormons and conservative Christians are sex-crazed porn addicts? Of course not, that's no more justified that what you've been saying in general about gays.

River, you can play these word games all day long to be silent on the issue or even defend it. I'm not interested.

It is not "word games" to ask you to back up your claims. If you can't, I have nothing more to add.

Clearly you are more interested in nit-picking the church and beating up the bride of Christ on her missteps than you are grieved about the wickedness of our culture and its embrace of things that bring eternal separation from God. If you want to continue to portray homosexuals as innocent victims who cannot help their behavior and are martyrs among the vicious and hateful Christians, then I think this speaks volumes about your heart. As I said before, many Christians have and continue to approach this issue the wrong way and that is very unfortunate. However, it is a grievous sin and a life that is incompatible with being a disciple of Christ. It saddens me that you are more interested in upholding the cause of those who act in ways that bring God's wrath than you are interested in making true disciples for Jesus Christ.

Yep, I knew this was coming. How dare I question the way Christians have handled the "gay issue"!! Why, anyone who does that must be a gay-sympathizer who hates the Christian Church!!

And for the record, I don't believe in the sort of mafia-boss God you portray, where if gays are tolerated, God will punish us. You no do-a what I want, I breaka you legs!!

Ridiculous.

 

[RANDOR]

Satans children also know his voice......

I've seen many homesexuals get delivered from the chains of satan.

Homosexual sayzzzzzzzzzz............."but I was born this way"

Yep..........we were all born into sin....right along with ya.....

but some never shake it off.

Sin feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllllsssssssssssssssssssssssssss good oh ya

but deliverance feeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeelssssssssssss better.

It's that last breath that counts

 

[aspen]

The problem with celibacy is that it doesn't stop lustful thoughts - and as we all know, thinking it is just as bad as doing it, according to Jesus. Fact is, we are all sinful - we have all been living in an alternate reality ever since the Fall. This is plan B, folks. God desires a humble and loving heart, not sacrifice - remember? Better off is the loving homosexual than the angry, bean counting fundamentalist.

 

[Wormwood]

You're still not answering the question. Since you and I last posted, I shared our discussion with a gay friend of mine. He still has the same question I do...are you saying that if a gay person is to be a disciple of Christ, they either have to no longer be attracted to members of the same sex, or they have to be celibate their whole lives?

He, and every other gay person I've ever spoken to, insists that the former is as impossible as you or I no longer being attracted to members of the opposite sex, so that leaves the latter (celibacy). Is that what Christianity demands of gays?

I believe I have answered this question before. We all have predispositions toward sin and temptations. It is how we act or refuse to act on those desires or impulses that makes the difference. I am attracted to women who are not my wife. Does this mean I can meditate on lustful thoughts towards them? Does it mean I can be intimate with women who are not my wife? No. We all have inappropriate desires. I am not denying the reality of same sex attraction. However a person is not defined by those attractions, nor are they helpless in their ability to act out on those impulses anymore than a heterosexual. I do believe that God can change the heart of people who cry out to him for this. Perhaps he would not...like Paul...allowing the "thorn in the flesh" to remain (im not saying Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was homosexual desires...just to be clear). However, I know I have prayed to have ungodly desires removed from my life..and over time, much prayer and resisting sin...my heart has been changed in this area. Im just saying its possible.


When did you say "don't say anything?" Well, it seem inferred from this sentence...

But what are they giving up? They swear with all sincerity that it's as impossible for them to give up being attracted to members of the same sex as it is for you or I to give up being attracted to members of the opposite sex. What if someone gay says they surrendered to Christ, but they're still gay? What if they say there's no way they're going to be celibate or not ever be in a romantic relationship? I know what I'd say if someone told me it was either celibacy or you can't be a Christian.

I am implying by this sentence that you are claiming that they 1) cannot resist the attraction to the same sex, 2) they can be Christian and gay (you haven't clarified if "gay" here means desire or lifestyle), and 3) should never be asked to remain celibate (as you imply this is either impossible or unreasonable). Is this not what you are saying? Moreover, I have told you how I try to lovingly confront the issue with people I know. You seem to be eager to combat this at every opportunity and point to extreme cases to undermine any attempt to deal with the issue since, in your mind, Christians don't deal with other issues appropriately like greed or gluttony.

I don't think you're a liar, you've just been duped by bogus "studies" (in much the same way young-earth creationists get duped by bogus "science"). And do you think straight people don't watch porn? Are you aware that the state with the highest online porn viewership is Utah? Or that the more conservative and religious a state is, the higher its rate of porn consumption?

Should we therefore conclude that all Mormons and conservative Christians are sex-crazed porn addicts? Of course not, that's no more justified that what you've been saying in general about gays.

Look I have done work specifically in this area. I have gone to the clubs and I have worked in ministries in this area. Im not saying this is true of every homosexual. What I am saying is that the men I have known and ministered to in this area tell the same story. The clubs I have gone into have porn everywhere. This is not the case with heterosexual clubs. I am not talking about prostitutes. I am talking about male night clubs. I am talking about every gay friend and relative I know posting extremely obscene pics of themselves and others on FB continually. Each picture has a different partner. Look, don't tell me what I know and have seen with my own two eyes. Believe whatever you want (as it seems you are going to regardless).

Yep, I knew this was coming. How dare I question the way Christians have handled the "gay issue"!! Why, anyone who does that must be a gay-sympathizer who hates the Christian Church!!

And for the record, I don't believe in the sort of mafia-boss God you portray, where if gays are tolerated, God will punish us. You no do-a what I want, I breaka you legs!!

Ridiculous.

What are you talking about? Im the one who said that Christians have mishandled this issue. However, my problem with you is that you seem only interested in attacking the church while all your comments on homosexuality seem to be either defending their "rights" or excusing their actions. It is a sin and one no one should defend. Yes, Christians can handle the issue better. I have said that on multiple occasions. This obviously isn't good enough. Apparently you want something more like: Yes it is a sin. No they cannot help it. Its wrong to tell them to change since others sin too. Definitely don't tell them to stop or be celibate. Don't say anything negative about the lifestyle either.

There is ONE sin the Bible records throwing someone out of the fellowship over...and that is sexual sin. A little yeast works through the entire batch of dough...and that is what we are seeing through many denominations today. Its and issue you deal with...lovingly but directly.

 

[River Jordan]

I believe I have answered this question before. We all have predispositions toward sin and temptations. It is how we act or refuse to act on those desires or impulses that makes the difference. I am attracted to women who are not my wife. Does this mean I can meditate on lustful thoughts towards them? Does it mean I can be intimate with women who are not my wife? No. We all have inappropriate desires. I am not denying the reality of same sex attraction. However a person is not defined by those attractions, nor are they helpless in their ability to act out on those impulses anymore than a heterosexual. I do believe that God can change the heart of people who cry out to him for this. Perhaps he would not...like Paul...allowing the "thorn in the flesh" to remain (im not saying Paul's "thorn in the flesh" was homosexual desires...just to be clear). However, I know I have prayed to have ungodly desires removed from my life..and over time, much prayer and resisting sin...my heart has been changed in this area. Im just saying its possible.

So your answer to my friend would be, "Yes you may still be attracted to men, but you must remain celibate".

I am implying by this sentence that you are claiming that they 1) cannot resist the attraction to the same sex, 2) they can be Christian and gay (you haven't clarified if "gay" here means desire or lifestyle), and 3) should never be asked to remain celibate (as you imply this is either impossible or unreasonable). Is this not what you are saying?

Again, I'm telling you what my gay friends tell me about their feelings and attractions, and that I don't feel any of us are in any position to say otherwise (IOW act as if we know their feelings better than they do). If he says to me "I can't stop being attracted to the same sex any more than you can stop being attracted to the opposite sex", what I am going to say? "Yes you can"? If I say anything that questions that, I'm implying that I think I know his feelings better than he does, which is ridiculously arrogant.

Moreover, I have told you how I try to lovingly confront the issue with people I know. You seem to be eager to combat this at every opportunity and point to extreme cases to undermine any attempt to deal with the issue since, in your mind, Christians don't deal with other issues appropriately like greed or gluttony.

Well obviously you're getting very defensive and don't seem to be open to what I'm saying.

Look I have done work specifically in this area. I have gone to the clubs and I have worked in ministries in this area. Im not saying this is true of every homosexual. What I am saying is that the men I have known and ministered to in this area tell the same story. The clubs I have gone into have porn everywhere. This is not the case with heterosexual clubs. I am not talking about prostitutes. I am talking about male night clubs. I am talking about every gay friend and relative I know posting extremely obscene pics of themselves and others on FB continually. Each picture has a different partner. Look, don't tell me what I know and have seen with my own two eyes. Believe whatever you want (as it seems you are going to regardless).

And you don't believe those things also occur in heterosexual circles? If I went to singles bars do you think what I saw would be representative of the heterosexual community as a whole?

What are you talking about? Im the one who said that Christians have mishandled this issue. However, my problem with you is that you seem only interested in attacking the church while all your comments on homosexuality seem to be either defending their "rights" or excusing their actions.

Where have I "attacked the church"? And pointing out the legal aspects of this issue is neither defending or excusing anything. It is simply stating the legal facts. But it is interesting that you see it that way.

It is a sin and one no one should defend. Yes, Christians can handle the issue better. I have said that on multiple occasions. This obviously isn't good enough. Apparently you want something more like: Yes it is a sin. No they cannot help it. Its wrong to tell them to change since others sin too. Definitely don't tell them to stop or be celibate. Don't say anything negative about the lifestyle either.

How about this....it's a sin and how to handle that is between the sinner and God, not between the sinner, me, and God? Did it ever occur to you that it's not our place to tell anyone "Well, God is going to ask you to do this and that"?

There is ONE sin the Bible records throwing someone out of the fellowship over...and that is sexual sin. A little yeast works through the entire batch of dough...and that is what we are seeing through many denominations today. Its and issue you deal with...lovingly but directly.

Scripture clearly states that greed and love of money will bring nations down, and it's something Jesus spoke about frequently (while not saying one thing about homosexuality). Yet based on the activities and rhetoric of today's Christians, you'd think homosexuality was the one and only sin.

___________________________________

Maddad,

I give you Brian Fischer of the American Family Association and his outrageously hateful rhetoric towards gays.

Then there's your Family Research Council and their same hateful rhetoric.

To pretend that these people are taking anything resembling a loving Christian stance towards gays is the height of delusion.

 

[Wormwood]

So your answer to my friend would be, "Yes you may still be attracted to men, but you must remain celibate".

My answer to them would be the same as my answer to an alcoholic. Drunkenness is a sin. You should strive with all your effort to live a sober life, as this is the command and call of God for those who would follow Jesus Christ. I don't understand what is challenging about this or why you think someone can actively and unremorsefully engage in a sinful lifestyle and call themselves a follower of Jesus.


Again, I'm telling you what my gay friends tell me about their feelings and attractions, and that I don't feel any of us are in any position to say otherwise (IOW act as if we know their feelings better than they do). If he says to me "I can't stop being attracted to the same sex any more than you can stop being attracted to the opposite sex", what I am going to say? "Yes you can"? If I say anything that questions that, I'm implying that I think I know his feelings better than he does, which is ridiculously arrogant.

No, I very directly said that their attraction is very real. However, the desires of our flesh should not dictate the direction of our lives.
“But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” (Galatians 5:16–18, ESV)

Well obviously you're getting very defensive and don't seem to be open to what I'm saying.

Not defensive at all. Im just baffeled by your confession that homosexuality is a sin and yet your determination to defend a sinful behavior. I would have the same reaction if you were defending alcoholism, drug abuse, child abuse, or prostitution. Yes, God loves sinful people, and we should reach out to them with love in grace. The loving thing to do for a prostitute when developing a relationship with him/her is to become their friend and lovingly encourage them away from such a lifestyle. To act as if they cannot help it or ignore the issue is not loving, nor Christ-like. Jesus was not afraid to address people's sin...whether it was the relationship of a Samaritan woman (John 4), a prostitute (John 8), the hypocrisy of the Scribes and Pharisees, or the pride and unbelief of his own disciples. I believe Jesus' message is summed up by Gospel writers as "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." It seems that you feel the "Repent" part is unnecessary, or insensitive, or unloving...perhaps all three.

And you don't believe those things also occur in heterosexual circles? If I went to singles bars do you think what I saw would be representative of the heterosexual community as a whole?

Well, actually I would say clubs and bars are a very good indicator of where young people are in their view of sexuality and the direction of culture as a whole. My point is quite simple: if you enter heterosexual club or bar and then go into a homosexual club or bar...you will see a mind-numbing difference. Neither are healthy...but there is a very distinct difference between the two.

Where have I "attacked the church"? And pointing out the legal aspects of this issue is neither defending or excusing anything. It is simply stating the legal facts. But it is interesting that you see it that way.

My point is that there is also some good things the church is doing in these areas along with the messes. Your focus seems to be exclusively that the church is "hateful" on these issues. I've been simply trying to provide some balance. Some of the "hatefulness" is simply a branding our culture gives to anyone who dares claim a behavior is wrong. In other instances, Christians have definitely addressed this issue improperly, in my opinion. We should be more loving and address the issue with individuals rather than through courts and laws. However, my impression from what I have seen in your comments is that you have nothing good to say about the church on this issue and the only proper way to address it is to say nothing at all. You seem to indicate that anything else is "hateful" or insensitive to these individuals. You seem solely focused on pointing out all the faults of Christians. Remember, Christians are people too. Lets not throw Christians under the bus as if homosexuals are the only people that count here. The Church takes enough criticism from the world that I don't think its helpful for Christians to join in. Lets get solutions rather than joining in on the criticism as a means of identifying with the world.

How about this....it's a sin and how to handle that is between the sinner and God, not between the sinner, me, and God? Did it ever occur to you that it's not our place to tell anyone "Well, God is going to ask you to do this and that"?

This is a terribly postmodern and unbiblical approach to sin in my opinion. I think it is the place of church leaders to do this very thing. Have you not read the Epistles or 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus? The Epistles are filled with rebukes and corrections for churches. Its also filled with warnings about the lifestyles of pagans and those without faith. I think your approach displays a very weak ecclesiology. The Church is a community of people of faith who should build each other up and hold each other accountable. It is not a collection of atomized individuals who have their own "personal relationship" with Jesus. The Bible knows no such language and to view the church this way is more of a result of an egotistical culture steeped in "rights" and individualism than anything taught in the Bible.


Scripture clearly states that greed and love of money will bring nations down, and it's something Jesus spoke about frequently (while not saying one thing about homosexuality). Yet based on the activities and rhetoric of today's Christians, you'd think homosexuality was the one and only sin.

Yes. And as I have said before, I hear such messages every week at church. Very few churches I know of (other than the health and wealth groups) encourage greed or defend the love of money. Rather, I hear messages almost every week on generosity, tithing, and focusing on the eternal rather than the temporal.

However, we live in a culture today where to speak out against homosexual unions as being "hate speech" and many mainline deonimations are completely embracing this lifestyle and even have clergy who are homosexual. I would be just as intent on this issue if the church was preaching pro-greed messages. Preachers who are greedy or caught embezzling money or have expensive cars and planes are criticized heavily by both the church and our culture. However, it is quite the opposite with homosexuality. The culture is embracing it as something to be celebrated and churches are falling in line for the most part. This is a very different scenario. If I teach a class on God's purposes for sexuality and male and female relationships and say anything about homosexuality being wrong....I am labeled a bigot by people both inside and outside the church. This is not true if I teach on God's purposes for wealth and the importance of generosity and self-sacrifice financially.

I think you assessment of the state of our culture and the church if quite off base.

 

[River Jordan]

Wormwood,

It's interesting to me how you keep thinking that just by asking some questions, trying to see this from the perspective of a gay person, and having an appreciation for exactly what we're saying to them (you must divorce/break up with your partner and become celibate), I'm therefore defending their lifestyle, attacking the church, advocating a mute approach, etc.

Unless you get over those fundamental misconceptions, we're just going to keep talking past each other.

 

[Madad21]

___________________________________

Maddad,

I give you Brian Fischer of the American Family Association and his outrageously hateful rhetoric towards gays.

Then there's your Family Research Council and their same hateful rhetoric.

To pretend that these people are taking anything resembling a loving Christian stance towards gays is the height of delusion.

Ok so let me get this right, you acquire your views on Christian morality via this secular website? http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page

RationalWiki
Our purpose here at RationalWiki includes:
Analyzing and refuting pseudoscience and the anti-science movement. (So basically about 99% of all events in the Bible)
Documenting the full range of crank ideas. (Crank, what like Christ on the cross? Salvation? Homosexuality is bad?)
Explorations of authoritarianism and fundamentalism. (Scientific view of religion and other fairly tales, goes under "Crank")
Analysis and criticism of how these subjects are handled in the media. (See above)


Quote
Bryan Fischer
- "Fischer’s expressed views on homosexuality, gay marriage, and gay adoption can be summed up as an ongoing attempt to outdo himself with crazy (Yes because its really uncool these days to go against secular belief, Christians should "Yolo" with the rest of us). Against accusation that he has claimed that all gays should be “locked up”, Fischer pointed out that he had claimed no such thing;(But they dont believe him) he merely wishes to criminalize homosexual behavior and force gays and lesbians into reparative therapy since “homosexual behavior represents a severe threat to public health (No it doesnt its perfectly normal and healthy to have same sex relationships what an imbecile!!), and is even more dangerous to human health than intravenous drug abuse.” (how it doesnt effect the body and the Spirit!...does it?)[60] He has also referred to same-sex marriage as "sodomy-based marriage" (no its not, God didn't destroy all those people in Sodom because they were practicing homosexuals and idolaters, Paul doesnt say in 1 Cor 6:9 that homosexuals and idolaters will not inherit the Kingdom...oh hang on) [61]

Your right this Christian who speaks out against popular secular strong holds and voices his opinion on the matter publically should be shot, how dare he warn the world of their coming peril stupid religious nut job, Jesus died so that homosexuals can be married in the church. How dare anybody try to save them from destruction.

Im glad we have good Rational thinking anti religion websites to lead the way in Kingdom morality, who needs the Bible.

Good on ya

So your answer to my friend would be, "Yes you may still be attracted to men, but you must remain celibate".

My answer to them would be the same as my answer to an alcoholic. Drunkenness is a sin. You should strive with all your effort to live a sober life, as this is the command and call of God for those who would follow Jesus Christ. I don't understand what is challenging about this or why you think someone can actively and unremorsefully engage in a sinful lifestyle and call themselves a follower of Jesus.


Again, I'm telling you what my gay friends tell me about their feelings and attractions, and that I don't feel any of us are in any position to say otherwise (IOW act as if we know their feelings better than they do). If he says to me "I can't stop being attracted to the same sex any more than you can stop being attracted to the opposite sex", what I am going to say? "Yes you can"? If I say anything that questions that, I'm implying that I think I know his feelings better than he does, which is ridiculously arrogant.

No, I very directly said that their attraction is very real. However, the desires of our flesh should not dictate the direction of our lives.
“But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” (Galatians 5:16–18, ESV)

Well obviously you're getting very defensive and don't seem to be open to what I'm saying.

Not defensive at all. Im just baffeled by your confession that homosexuality is a sin and yet your determination to defend a sinful behavior. I would have the same reaction if you were defending alcoholism, drug abuse, child abuse, or prostitution. Yes, God loves sinful people, and we should reach out to them with love in grace. The loving thing to do for a prostitute when developing a relationship with him/her is to become their friend and lovingly encourage them away from such a lifestyle. To act as if they cannot help it or ignore the issue is not loving, nor Christ-like. Jesus was not afraid to address people's sin...whether it was the relationship of a Samaritan woman (John 4), a prostitute (John 8), the hypocrisy of the Scribes and Pharisees, or the pride and unbelief of his own disciples. I believe Jesus' message is summed up by Gospel writers as "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." It seems that you feel the "Repent" part is unnecessary, or insensitive, or unloving...perhaps all three.

And you don't believe those things also occur in heterosexual circles? If I went to singles bars do you think what I saw would be representative of the heterosexual community as a whole?

Well, actually I would say clubs and bars are a very good indicator of where young people are in their view of sexuality and the direction of culture as a whole. My point is quite simple: if you enter heterosexual club or bar and then go into a homosexual club or bar...you will see a mind-numbing difference. Neither are healthy...but there is a very distinct difference between the two.

Where have I "attacked the church"? And pointing out the legal aspects of this issue is neither defending or excusing anything. It is simply stating the legal facts. But it is interesting that you see it that way.

My point is that there is also some good things the church is doing in these areas along with the messes. Your focus seems to be exclusively that the church is "hateful" on these issues. I've been simply trying to provide some balance. Some of the "hatefulness" is simply a branding our culture gives to anyone who dares claim a behavior is wrong. In other instances, Christians have definitely addressed this issue improperly, in my opinion. We should be more loving and address the issue with individuals rather than through courts and laws. However, my impression from what I have seen in your comments is that you have nothing good to say about the church on this issue and the only proper way to address it is to say nothing at all. You seem to indicate that anything else is "hateful" or insensitive to these individuals. You seem solely focused on pointing out all the faults of Christians. Remember, Christians are people too. Lets not throw Christians under the bus as if homosexuals are the only people that count here. The Church takes enough criticism from the world that I don't think its helpful for Christians to join in. Lets get solutions rather than joining in on the criticism as a means of identifying with the world.

How about this....it's a sin and how to handle that is between the sinner and God, not between the sinner, me, and God? Did it ever occur to you that it's not our place to tell anyone "Well, God is going to ask you to do this and that"?

This is a terribly postmodern and unbiblical approach to sin in my opinion. I think it is the place of church leaders to do this very thing. Have you not read the Epistles or 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus? The Epistles are filled with rebukes and corrections for churches. Its also filled with warnings about the lifestyles of pagans and those without faith. I think your approach displays a very weak ecclesiology. The Church is a community of people of faith who should build each other up and hold each other accountable. It is not a collection of atomized individuals who have their own "personal relationship" with Jesus. The Bible knows no such language and to view the church this way is more of a result of an egotistical culture steeped in "rights" and individualism than anything taught in the Bible.


Scripture clearly states that greed and love of money will bring nations down, and it's something Jesus spoke about frequently (while not saying one thing about homosexuality). Yet based on the activities and rhetoric of today's Christians, you'd think homosexuality was the one and only sin.

Yes. And as I have said before, I hear such messages every week at church. Very few churches I know of (other than the health and wealth groups) encourage greed or defend the love of money. Rather, I hear messages almost every week on generosity, tithing, and focusing on the eternal rather than the temporal.

However, we live in a culture today where to speak out against homosexual unions as being "hate speech" and many mainline deonimations are completely embracing this lifestyle and even have clergy who are homosexual. I would be just as intent on this issue if the church was preaching pro-greed messages. Preachers who are greedy or caught embezzling money or have expensive cars and planes are criticized heavily by both the church and our culture. However, it is quite the opposite with homosexuality. The culture is embracing it as something to be celebrated and churches are falling in line for the most part. This is a very different scenario. If I teach a class on God's purposes for sexuality and male and female relationships and say anything about homosexuality being wrong....I am labeled a bigot by people both inside and outside the church. This is not true if I teach on God's purposes for wealth and the importance of generosity and self-sacrifice financially.

I think you assessment of the state of our culture and the church if quite off base.

These are very good answers.

I suffer myself have done since I was 12 years old, since that time I had several encounters until I was in my early 20's, I loathed myself and became at times suicidal, because of those feelings and desires I became a drunk and drug addicted at a ver young age, just to try and mask my feelings.
I wanted to be accepted as a homosexual in the world, problem was i couldn't accept it myself, no matter how intense the desire, the loathing was worse.
I met Jesus late in life long after my last encounter, I learnt Jesus comes first and so i dont live by the flesh, Its my burden to bare and I will carry my cross. This is what repentance is, its not easy, infact its miserable. I want to do what i please with my body, I want to smoke dope and get drunk. but these feelings are not greater then my desire to follow Christ. So now I maybe miserable at 38 years old but I am also free from oppression. Im not in the closet because Im not gay, God didnt make me that way, What I am is a child of the living God (This is my identity) I carry my burden with the assurance of the coming of the Kingdom.

I have a wife I love whom I have never cheated on and an 18 year old son in Bible college, but dont for a second think that any of those old feelings have gone away, I call on the might of the Holy Spirit who lives in me to guide my steps, he walks for me so I dont have to bare the full weight, I find reassurance in the Word and I am strengthened.

Sin drives fear, fear of the Lord drives us to obedience, obedience to God sets us free from sin, freedom from sin is freedom from fear and thus joy in the lord, If the Lord sets you free, you are free indeed.

Genesis 4:6-7
the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? “If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”