Genesis 14 and Psalm 110

[Matthias]

Tell me about what Dagon requires from you, and what you expect from Dagon.
Tell me how your worshiping Dagon makes your life better.

Thanks. That’s not what I would have done but it’s not unreasonable.

Let’s say that I follow your advice and the person tells me about all of the wonderful benefits of worshiping Dagon and how much better life is for them now that they do. The person encourages me to join them in extolling Dagon.

Keeping in mind that I know what the Bible says about Dagon, what would you advise me to do?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thanks. That’s not what I would have done but it’s not unreasonable.

Let’s say that I follow your advice and the person tells me about all of the wonderful benefits of worshiping Dagon and how much better life is for them now that they do. The person encourages me to join them in extolling Dagon.

Keeping in mind that I know what the Bible says about Dagon, what would you advise me to do?

What does the Bible say about Dagon?
If Dagon was a false god, it was because there were bad things associated with this worship.
To start with, the Dagon worshiper would expect a statue to act as a living god. Superstition, with all its consequences. COnsequences that would have come during our conversation with the Dagon's believer. This is one of the main arguments that Paul would use when talking to the people of Athens. Superstition generally leads to doing stupid, wrong things that affect our lives.

Perhaps the worship of Dagon was also associated with human sacrifices, or with orgies, I don't know. Maybe Dagon requested Philistines to attack and enslave Israelites and other peoples. National identity was critical in worshiping the God of Israel. Perhaps Dagon was just one of many gods with conflicting demands and human passions and vices, so that the person in your example would not have stated that Dagon was his one and only god, and a good one.

In contrast, there is no hint in the Scriptures about God condemning Ahura Mazda as a false god, or condemning Zoroastrians for idolatry, even when a good proportion of Scriptures were written during and after the exile. For sure, they knew who Ahura Mazda was. The Supreme and Only God of the existing superpower. On the contrary, Israelite Scriptures present Cyrus as being called by YHWH "My Annointed" "My Messiah"!
No hint on the supposed idolatry of The Wise Men from the East coming asking for Jesus. These men are highly likely to have worship Ahura Mazda, the Only Universal God and Judge.

 

[Matthias]

What does the Bible say about Dagon?
If Dagon was a false god, it was because there were bad things associated with this worship.
To start with, the Dagon worshiper would expect a statue to act as a living god. Superstition, with all its consequences. COnsequences that would have come during our conversation with the Dagon's believer. This is one of the main arguments that Paul would use when talking to the people of Athens. Superstition generally leads to doing stupid, wrong things that affect our lives.

Perhaps the worship of Dagon was also associated with human sacrifices, or with orgies, I don't know. Maybe Dagon requested Philistines to attack and enslave Israelites and other peoples. National identity was critical in worshiping the God of Israel.

In contrast, there is no hint in the Scriptures about God condemning Ahura Mazda as a false god, even when a good proportion of Scriptures were written during and after the exile. For sure, they knew who Ahura Mazda was. The Supreme and Only God of the existing superpower. On the contrary, Israelite Scriptures present Cyrus as being called by YHWH "My Annointed" "My Messiah"!
No hint on the supposed idolatry of The Wise Men from the East coming asking for Jesus. These men are highly likely to have worship Ahura Mazda, the Only Universal God and Judge.

Interesting. Dagon clearly isn’t the God of Israel. Yahweh symbolically knocks him over and lops off his head. Paul says those who worship idols / false gods (ex. Dagon) are worshiping demons.

Can a person who worships demons experience what most people would consider to be a good life?

 

[Matthias]

@Pancho Frijoles we spoke about Nineveh and Jonah earlier. It slipped my mind at the time that Dagon was the deity that the Ninevites worshiped.

Who was Dagon in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

Who was Dagon in the Bible? What did Dagon worship involve? Why did the Philistines worship Dagon?

www.gotquestions.org

I like the approach you advised -> a nice example of meeting someone where they are; it resonated with me.

However, I could never join the worshiper of Dagon in extolling him.

P.S.

Those who worship Dagon surely think of him as a living god. The only living God I recognize and acknowledge is the Messiah’s God.

For me to be persuaded that a deity by any other name is the same as the Messiah’s God, I would have to be shown and convinced that the Messiah himself worships that deity, ascended to that deity following his resurrection back to life, and is currently sitting at the right hand of that deity in heaven.

Dagon doesn’t meet that criteria.

Would you contend that Ahura Mazda meets the criteria?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Can a person who worships demons experience what most people would consider to be a good life?

No.
A person who worships demons cannot experience a transformation of life.
If that were the case, those demons would not be demons, nor God would be God.

That's the whole point of Jesus reply to those who accused them of healing people through the power of Beelzebu.
Beelzebu was conceived as a false god... but why was it a false god, and how could Jesus prove that He was not using the power of Beelzebu, but the power of the true God of Israel?

Well, Beelzebu was considered a false god because it was an evil demon (Satan). And evil cannot produce good things.
So, as you can see, Jesus did not resort to any theological explanation of why YWHW was true while Beelzebu was false. He was direct and simple: The true God does good things, like healing people, while the demon does bad things.

Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

​

 

[Matthias]

No.
A person who worships demons cannot experience a transformation of life.
If that were the case, those demons would not be demons, nor God would be God.

That's the whole point of Jesus reply to those who accused them of healing people through the power of Beelzebu.
Beelzebu was conceived as a false god... but why was it a false god, and how could Jesus prove that He was not using the power of Beelzebu, but the power of the true God of Israel?

Well, Beelzebu was considered a false god because it was an evil demon (Satan). And evil cannot produce good things.

Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

​

Many who worship false gods / demons are happy, healthy, wealthy, loving, prosperous and generous to varying degrees. By those metrics they lead a “good life”.

Satan promised Jesus the entire world, conditionally. Jesus turned it down.

Satan promises people all kinds of good things. Billions of people don’t turn it down.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

@Pancho Frijoles we spoke about Nineveh and Jonah earlier. It slipped my mind at the time that Dagon was the deity that the Ninevites worshiped.

Who was Dagon in the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

Who was Dagon in the Bible? What did Dagon worship involve? Why did the Philistines worship Dagon?

www.gotquestions.org

I like the approach you advised -> a nice example of meeting someone where they are; it resonated with me.

However, I could never join the worshiper of Dagon in extolling him.

P.S.

Those who worship Dagon surely think of him as a living god. The only living God I recognize and acknowledge is the Messiah’s God.

For me to be persuaded that a deity by any other name is the same as the Messiah’s God, I would have to be shown and convinced that the Messiah himself worships that deity, ascended to that deity following his resurrection back to life, and is currently sitting at the right hand of that deity in heaven.

Dagon doesn’t meet that criteria.

Would you contend that Ahura Mazda meets the criteria?

I would contend Ahura Mazda meets the criteria.
Certainly, Jesus did not use that name, because his ministry was not in Persia, but in Israel. The Scriptures He based his teaching were not the Gathas or the Avesta, but the Tanakh. However

1. Jesus used concepts and metaphors that had been revealed by God to Zoroaster, like Final Judgement, resurrection, angels, demons, the state of the soul after death. Furthermore, the very concept of a Universal God, and not a national God of armies. These concepts and metaphors continued to be used by the apostles. The influence of Zoroastrianism on Judaism is well acquainted among scholars.
2. Jesus' God was YHWH, and YHWN never accuses Cyrus of idolatry, although according to historians was in all likelihood Zoroastrian and therefore, knows God primarily as Ahura Mazda. Although YHWH says "you didn't know me", Cyrus proclaims the return of the Jews as a mandate from the God of Israel, the One and Only God. He is called by YHWH "My Annointed / Messiah".
3. Jesus was sought and revered by Zoroastrian priests. They are no portrayed in the Gospel as committing the sin of idolatry, but as people guided by God to recognize His Messiah.

 

[Matthias]

I would contend Ahura Mazda meets the criteria.
Certainly, Jesus did not use that name, because his ministry was not in Persia, but in Israel. The Scriptures He based his teaching were not the Gathas or the Avesta, but the Tanakh. However

1. Jesus used concepts and metaphors that had been revealed by God to Zoroaster, like Final Judgement, resurrection, angels, demons, the state of the soul after death. Furthermore, the very concept of a Universal God, and not a national God of armies. These concepts and metaphors continued to be used by the apostles. The influence of Zoroastrianism on Judaism is well acquainted among scholars.
2. Jesus' God was YHWH, and YHWN never accuses Cyrus of idolatry, although according to historians was in all likelihood Zoroastrian and therefore, knows God primarily as Ahura Mazda. Although YHWH says "you didn't know me", Cyrus proclaims the return of the Jews as a mandate from the God of Israel, the One and Only God. He is called by YHWH "My Annointed / Messiah".
3. Jesus was sought and revered by Zoroastrian priests. They are no portrayed in the Gospel as committing the sin of idolatry, but as people guided by God to recognize His Messiah.

There are similarities but are there not also differences?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Many who worship false gods / demons are happy, healthy, wealthy, loving, prosperous and generous to varying degrees. By those metrics they lead a “good life”.

I disagree. If they worshiped demons they would be unhappy, and not loving but hateful and not generous but indifferent to those who suffer. As Jesus has stated, a good tree cannot bear bad fruits and a bad tree cannot bear good fruits. These are not my words, Matthias.

I have a question for you to reflect, Mathias:

How would you persuade a person to stop worshiping demons and start worshiping God?

 

[Matthias]

I disagree.

It’s fine to disagree, and to be expected in interfaith conversations. There are always points of agreement and points of disagreement.

If they worshiped demons they would be unhappy, and not loving but hateful or indifferent to those who suffer.

They worship demons without even knowing it. Their lives are wrapped up in the things of this age and they enjoy them to the hilt. Many engage in some form of humanistic philanthropy. It will end disastrously for them.

As Jesus has stated, it is impossible for a good tree to bear bad fruits and for a bad tree to bear good fruits.

There is counterfeit fruit. Those who are worshiping demons are deceived and deceivers.

I have a question for you to reflect, if I am allow to suggest this, Mathias:

How would you persuade a person of stop worshiping demons and start worshiping God?

That’s a great question. I would begin with the teaching and preaching of Jesus.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There are similarities but are there not also differences?

Sure there are.
I get this question frequently when discussing this topic.

If there were no differences between Muslims and Christians or Christians and Jews, or the three of them with Zoroastrians, we wouldn't have this division among religions. Of course there are differences.
But then, Aren't there also strong differences within those religions?
It it the same a Chiite Muslim than a Suni Muslim? Or a Catholic than a Pentecostal?
And still further, are all people sitting in a Baptist church in Sunday thinking the same thing about God's requirements for their lives and amount many other topics related to politics, history, sex and marriage, prophecies, etc?

So here comes the thing:
What is more simple to accept...
that there are billions of gods, each one inhabiting the mind of each believer who lives or has ever lived... OR
that God is One, but the billions of believers have billions of different ideas about Him and His Word?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That’s a great question. I would begin with the teaching and preaching of Jesus.

But why would that person stop worshiping demons and start believing in Jesus?
What does Jesus offer instead, and how could that person believe that such an offer is worthwhile going after?

 

[Matthias]

Sure there are.
I get this question frequently when discussing this topic.

If there were no differences between Muslims and Christians or Christians and Jews, or the three of them with Zoroastrians, we wouldn't have this division among religions. Of course there are differences.
But then, Aren't there also strong differences within those religions?
It it the same a Chiite Muslim than a Suni Muslim? Or a Catholic than a Pentecostal?

Yes. That’s why I mentioned specifically what it would take for me to believe deities operating under other names are the same God as the God of Israel.

Ahura Mazada is similar to Yahweh but there are also distinct, and major differences, between them. Because of that, I’m not persuaded that Ahura Mazda is Yahweh.

So here comes the thing: What is more simple:
To believe that there are billions of gods, one inhabiting the mind of each believer who lives or has ever lived... OR
that God is One, but believers have different ideas on how He is and what does He say and want?

Jesus is the answer.

 

[Matthias]

But why would that person stop worshiping demons and start believing in Jesus?

There’s no guarantee that a person would stop worshiping demons and start believing in Jesus.

What does Jesus offer instead, and how could that person believe that such an offer is worthwhile going after?

Jesus offers them the life of the age to come. They can’t have it apart from him.

 

[Matthias]

I’m looking for an analogy. @Pancho Frijoles are you by any chance familiar with an old American television game show called “To Tell the Truth”?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There is counterfeit fruit. Those who are worshiping demons are deceived and deceivers.

If Jesus gave us this method explicitly, it is because it should be the best method available. Don't you think?
Perhaps not perfect, as we certainly cannot know the secrets of the heart, only God.
Perhaps not always as fast, as the fruits can take time to be produced or perceived.
Still, this is the method Jesus gave us.

When we are hiring an employee, we use this method.
When we are thinking in dating or marrying a lady, we use this method.
When we monitor if our son or daughter is hanging around with the right friends, we use this method.
When we decide on who to vote for major or president, we use this method.
When we accept to hold a long conversation with a Forum member, as we are having now, we use this method. ;)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I’m looking for an analogy. @Pancho Frijoles are you by any chance familiar with an old American television game show called “To Tell the Truth”?

No, my friend.
Perhaps you may want to post a link to a video in Youtube so that I can understand it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

There’s no guarantee that a person would stop worshiping demons and start believing in Jesus.

Sure, but my question is how you would preach Jesus to such a person to try to persuade him/her, if at all possible?

Jesus offers them the life of the age to come. They can’t have it apart from him.

Well, a demon offers him pleasures, wealth or popularity in this life.
So, why should that person reject what the demons are offering in this life, in exchange for some invisible life in the future to come?

 

[Matthias]

If Jesus gave us this method explicitly, it is because it should be the best method available. Don't you think?

Yes.

Have you heard what my enemies here say about me? They (mis)apply 2 Corinthians 11: 11-15 to me. The preacher appears to be a wonderful person but is really a wolf in sheep’s clothing. The fruit looks good on the surface but is actually rotten.

I need no pit up no defense against them. Time and Jesus will prove them right or wrong.

Perhaps not perfect, as we certainly cannot know the secrets of the heart, only God.
Perhaps it will not always as fast, as the fruits can take time to be produced or perceived.
Still, this is the method Jesus gave us.

When you are hiring an employee, you use this method.
When you are thinking in dating or marrying a lady, you use this method.
When you advice your son or daughter to hang around with the right friends, you use this method.
When we decide on who to vote for major or president, we use this method.
When we accept to hold a long conversation with a Forum member, as we are having now, we use this method. ;)

Words are spirit. Test the spirits.

 

[Matthias]

No, my friend.
Perhaps you may want to post a link to a video in Youtube so that I can understand it.

Here’s a link to one of the programs. You won’t need to watch the whole program in order to get the concept ... but you might want to!