Genesis 14 and Psalm 110

[Pancho Frijoles]

Excellent.

Could you provide a list of the names of the deities from other religions - deities whom you believe are Yahweh, just going under different names - which you believe fit with these two propositions?

Let's say, to limit the scope of our discussion, the God worshiped by Muslims, and the God worshiped by me as a Baha'i.

Muslims and Baha'is worship the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. The God worshiped by Jesus.
The Holy Quran states

Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?". They said "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac - One God. And we are Muslims in submission to Him". (2:133)

And talking about Jesus, Jesus says, “And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.” (19:36)

 

[Matthias]

Let's say, to limit the scope of our discussion, the God worshiped by Muslims, and the God worshiped by me as a Baha'i.

Okay, but I was really hoping to get a better idea from you about the deities in as many religions as possible whom you believe are Yahweh operating under other names (ex. Zeus, aka Yahweh).

Muslims and Baha'is worship the God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac. The God worshiped by Jesus.
The Holy Quran states

Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?". They said "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham, Ishmael and Isaac - One God. And we are Muslims in submission to Him". (2:133)

And talking about Jesus, Jesus says, “And indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.” (19:36)

Yes. So do you have any thoughts on why the Muslim co-worker I’ve spoken about wasn’t able to agree with the two propositions?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Okay, but I was really hoping to get a better idea from you about the deities in as many religions as possible whom you believe are Yahweh operating under other names (ex. Zeus, aka Yahweh).

I wouldn't dare so much as I don't know enough about those religions.

Yes. So do you have any thoughts on why the Muslim co-worker I’ve spoken about wasn’t able to agree with the two propositions?

No idea.
He should have agreed to the two propositions below.

Proposition 1: Jesus worshiped only one person; his God and Father (Yahweh).

Proposition 2: The God and Father of Jesus is the God and Father of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob / Israel

 

[Matthias]

I wouldn't dare so much as I don't know enough about those religions.

Would it be fair to say then that you don’t know whether or the deities of those religions are Yahweh operating under other names?

No idea.
He should have agreed to the two propositions below.

Proposition 1: Jesus worshiped only one person; his God and Father (Yahweh).

Proposition 2: The God and Father of Jesus is the God and Father of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob / Israel

Thanks. He was fine with “the God of Abraham” (that was common ground for us) but rejected the terms “Father” and “Yahweh” - saying that they aren’t relevant, nor they applicable, to Allah.

 

[Matthias]

@Pancho Frijoles I haven’t spoken with my Muslim co-worker since I retired and relocated back to my home state in 2016. The article I’m quoting from (and providing a link to) was published in 2019, so I haven’t discussed it with him.

The question that was asked: Why doesn’t God call himself “Yahweh” in the Quran?

The short answer:

”Because God never said his name is Yahweh. YHWH is the representation of the Hebrew characters in English. That’s why it is all capitalized. Therefore, this is not God’s name; it is an assumption to claim that it is Yahweh just because this is how it sounds when you pronounce the four letters YHWH in English. The word “Allah” is very similar to the name Elohim, which means god in Hebrew.”

Why Doesn't God Call Himself "Yahweh" In The Quran? | About Islam

Someone says that if Muslims are worshipping the same God as Christians and Jews do, they would be calling God "Yahweh." Why don't they? Read this answer!

aboutislam.net

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Would it be fair to say then that you don’t know whether or the deities of those religions are Yahweh operating under other names?

Yes, it is fair to say that.

Thanks. He was fine with “the God of Abraham” (that was common ground for us) but rejected the terms “Father” and “Yahweh” - saying that they aren’t relevant, nor they applicable, to Allah.

One thing is to say that the titles or terms "Father" and "Yahweh" are not relevant anymore for Islam. Another different thing is to say they were never relevant... and a totally different thing is to confuse names with identities ! :)

El, Elohim and YHWH are different names for the same God. Isn't that true? We don't even know by which name Enoch or Noah knew God. For all we know, Jesus used the Arameic form "Eloi" and not Yahveh, when speaking to God on the cross.

God revealed Himself as "I am who I am", YHWH, because of a practical need: Moses needed a name to preach to the Hebrews in Egypt.
Originally God presented Himself to Moses as the "God of your fathers" without any particular personal name (Ex 3:6,14,15)

Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God...

Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.

***

The term "Father" is very scarcely used in the Old Testament. When used, it is not as a self-standing name, but as a role that God takes. However, we all know Jesus was refering to the only God his audience knew.
Jesus used "Father" constantly because of its correspondence to his claim to be "Son of God"... because of his claim to having received authority from God and speak the words of God. Mohammed didn't use the title "Son of God" (although he was, under the Baha'i view). But more importantly, Mohammed's emphasis was on the sovereignty and uniqueness of God. So, the term "The God" (meaning, The Only God, since there is no other) was preferred.

 

[Matthias]

Yes, it is fair to say that.

Thanks. I had it in my mind that Baha’i believe the deities of all religions are the same God. Your answer qualifies that for me.

One thing is to say that the titles or terms "Father" and "Yahweh" are not relevant anymore for Islam. Another different thing is to say they were never relevant... and a totally different thing is to confuse names with identities ! :)

God has revealed his personal name in the Bible. God has not revealed his personal name in the Quran, which dates later than the Bible.

If it is the same God, why would his name be revealed to Jews and Christians but not to Muslims?

I was able to ask my Muslim friend that question. His response was that Allah didn’t reveal his personal name to Jews and Christians, nor to Muslims or anyone else.

El, Elohim and YHWH are different names for the same God. Isn't that true? We don't even know by which name Enoch or Noah knew God.

El and elohim are titles, not personal names. They are applied in the Bible to the one God and also to pagan gods / idols. YHWH is a personal name; a proper name. It is applied to the one God but is not applied to pagan gods / idols.

God revealed Himself as "I am who I am", YHWH, because of a practical need: Moses needed a name to preach to the Hebrews in Egypt.
Originally God presented Himself to Moses as the "God of your fathers" without any particular personal name (Ex 3:6,14,15)

Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God...

Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.

***

The term "Father" is very scarcely used in the Old Testament. When used, it is not as a self-standing name, but as a role that God takes. However, we all know Jesus was refering to the only God his audience knew.
Jesus used "Father" constantly because of its correspondence to his claim to be "Son of God"... because of his claim to having received authority from God and speak the words of God.

The term “Father” is scarcely used in the Hebrew Bible but it is used in the Hebrew Bible, and with regularity in the New Testament.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

@Pancho Frijoles I haven’t spoken with my Muslim co-worker since I retired and relocated back to my home state in 2016. The article I’m quoting from (and providing a link to) was published in 2019, so I haven’t discussed it with him.

The question that was asked: Why doesn’t God call himself “Yahweh” in the Quran?

The short answer:

”Because God never said his name is Yahweh. YHWH is the representation of the Hebrew characters in English. That’s why it is all capitalized. Therefore, this is not God’s name; it is an assumption to claim that it is Yahweh just because this is how it sounds when you pronounce the four letters YHWH in English. The word “Allah” is very similar to the name Elohim, which means god in Hebrew.”

Why Doesn't God Call Himself "Yahweh" In The Quran? | About Islam

Someone says that if Muslims are worshipping the same God as Christians and Jews do, they would be calling God "Yahweh." Why don't they? Read this answer!

aboutislam.net

Very enlightening.
In fact, if you dig into it, Matthias, you'll find that YHWH is a description... a description used as a name for practical purposes.
The description is something around the concept "I am who I am".
By the same token, the terms "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" "God of your fathers" or "Father" are also descriptions. Descriptions used as names for practical purposes.

El, Eloi and Allah (Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic) are all descriptions: God, The God.
Elohim, the plural, would describe something like "God of gods".

In the Abrahamic traditions (Judaism, Christianism, Islam, Baha'i Faith), God cannot be conceived or limited by a personal name. That's why Jews pronounce another name when they read the tetragrammaton.

 

[Matthias]

@Pancho Frijoles I’m linking a news article from 2014 in this post. As you will note when you read it, Malaysia’s Islamic authorities confiscated Bibles printed in the Malay language because they used the word “Allah” in reference to God.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA010C1/

I discussed this with my Muslim friend. He told me the Bibles were confiscated because using Allah in reference to God in the Bible is blasphemous.

 

[Matthias]

Very enlightening.
In fact, if you dig into it, Matthias, you'll find that YHWH is a description... a description used as a name for practical purposes.
The description is something around the concept "I am who I am".
By the same token, the terms "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" "God of your fathers" or "Father" are also descriptions. Descriptions used as names for practical purposes.

El, Eloi and Allah (Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic) are all descriptions: God, The God.
Elohim, the plural, would describe something like "God of gods".

In the Abrahamic traditions (Judaism, Christianism, Islam, Baha'i Faith), God cannot be conceived or limited by a personal name. That's why Jews pronounce another name when they read the tetragrammaton.

There was a time in their history when the Jews did pronounce the personal name of God. Christianity has traditionally refrained from writing and pronouncing the name of God, substituting LORD for the name where it occurs in scripture. There is no prohibition across the board in Christianity against writing and pronouncing the personal name and I pronounce and write it regularly and routinely.

That exasperated my Muslim friend, so I stopped doing it in his presence. I didn’t call God “Allah,“ even though he did. I simply said “God“ or “the God of Abraham”.

I also refrain from using the personal name of God when I’m speaking with Jews. As with the Muslim, I simply say “God” or “the God of Abraham” or ”the God of Israel”. Unlike the Muslims, the Jews don’t deny that God has a personal name; they’ve simply put a hedge around pronouncing it, out of reverence and fear of misusing it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thanks. I had it in my mind that Baha’i believe the deities of all religions are the same God. Your answer qualifies that for me.

Thanks to you for the opportunity for this clarification.
Indeed, it is a frequent misunderstanding of the Baha'i Faith.

I don't believe that all deities are God, and I don't believe that "all paths lead to God".
I believe there is a single path that leads to a single God. All other paths are false, all other gods are false.
To me, the Gospel is one, and eternal.

However, I do not equal "path" to "formal religion", "church" or "creed".
Two persons can be in the same church: one following the only and true Path, and the other following a false path.
By the same token, to persons can be following the only and true Path: each of them as members of different religious communities.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

@Pancho Frijoles I’m linking a news article from 2014 in this post. As you will note when you read it, Malaysia’s Islamic authorities confiscated Bibles printed in the Malay language because they used the word “Allah” in reference to God.

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBREA010C1/

I discussed this with my Muslim friend. He told me the Bibles were confiscated because using Allah in reference to God in the Bible is blasphemous.

Too bad. Sad to hear that.

No religious tradition is free from superstitions. We must keep fighting superstitions.

Still, coming back to your two propositions, the Quran teaches that Allah is the same God worshiped by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Jesus. There is no other God presented in the Quran. When you read the stories within it, there is no doubt that the same Agent is presented all the way back to Adam. Who was the God of Adam?

 

[Matthias]

Too bad. Sad to hear that.

No religious tradition is free from superstitions. We must keep fighting superstitions.

Still, coming back to your two propositions, the Quran teaches that Allah is the same God worshiped by Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and Jesus. There is no other God presented in the Quran. When you read the stories within it, there is no doubt it is the same.
When Mohammed first preached to Jews and Christians of Mekka, He did it on the shared assumption they were talking about the Only God.

Allah and Yahweh don’t act the same and don’t speak the same. I pointed this out to my Muslim friend (but did so by saying “the God of the Quran and the God of the Bible” rather than “Allah and Yahweh”).

He agreed. His explanation for it was that the Bible has been corrupted and is unreliable; the Quran is pure and wholly reliable.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Allah and Yahweh don’t act the same and don’t speak the same.

Sure. But how similar do you need them to act and speak to consider it the same God?

Any skeptic atheist can point out to us that Yahweh does not act and speak the same within the Tanakh itself !
Let alone compared with the Loving Father of the New Testament.

 

[Matthias]

Sure. But how similar do you need them to act and speak to consider it the same God?

To be the same they would speak and act the same.

Allah would not be in disagreement with Yahweh if Allah was Yahweh.

Any skeptic atheist can point out to us that Yahweh does not act and speak the same within the Tanakh itself !

I would refute the atheist.

Let alone compared with the Loving Father of the New Testament.

The God of the Hebrew Bible is the God of the New Testament. Yahweh is, as we have agreed (against the skeptic atheist), the God and Father of Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

Allah denies that Jesus was crucified. Yahweh planned for Jesus to be crucified, even before the creation of the world.

Allah (and the Quran) contradicts Yahweh (and the Bible).

If Allah and Yahweh is the same God then Allah contradicts himself.

As you see it, what is the way out of this conundrum @Pancho Frijoles?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I would refute the atheist.

You would have a very hard time refuting him.
If you succeed, you could also succeed in showing the Allah, Jesus' Father and YHWH are the same God.
The same amount of intellectual effort, scriptural and historical analysis is needed in both exercises.... and in the end, if there is no faith, arguments would end up being useless.

My point is that God is represented as speaking differently and acting differently across the entire Bible... and we believe He is still the same God.
Do you think we have to debate this or do you agree in principle?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Allah denies that Jesus was crucified. Yahweh planned for Jesus to be crucified, even before the creation of the world.

Allah (and the Quran) contradicts Yahweh (and the Bible).

If Allah and Yahweh is the same God then Allah contradicts himself.

As you see it, what is the way out of this conundrum @Pancho Frijoles?

The Bible says that the wicked will burn forever in a lake of fire and sulphur. It says that. Doesn't it?

So, Who is the true and Only God? The one that says that wicked will be destroyed (as you believe), the one that says that wicked will burn forever (as most Christians and Muslims believe) or the one that says that He doesn't want anyone to perish and his purposes cannot be frustrated (as I believe)? Are these three different gods?
Is the God of the Baptists or Lutherans different than your God? How can you conclude they are wrong about what God meant, but at the same time believe their God is your God?


****
A Note on the Crucifixion

Although the vast majority of Muslims think that a single verse in the Quran rules out the crucifixion of Jesus, there have been a minority of Muslims who have not adopted this interpretation for centuries. In addition, we Baha'is believe in the crucifixion of Jesus, while upholding the divine inspiration of the Quran.

From the perspective of those few Muslims and for Baha'is, what the Quran teaches is that the enemies of Jesus thought that, by killing Jesus, they have finished his Cause. They were deceived. This was just a mirage, a false perception. What they had killed was a man, a historical character (Jesus of Nazareth), but God had preserved the Messiah, the spiritual Christ, because His Word, His Kingdom, is eternal and cannot perish. Jesus "ascended" to Allah alive, which is a symbol of the fact that the Gospel Jesus taught can't die.

 

[Matthias]

You would have a very hard time refuting him.

On the contrary. I would have an easy time refuting the atheist. Persuading the atheist would be hard.

If you succeed, you could also succeed in showing the Allah, Jesus' Father and YHWH are the same God.

I’m not persuaded that Allah (who begets no son and has no son) is Jesus’ Father, Yahweh.

Jesus was begotten by Yahweh and conceived by Mary.

The same amount of intellectual effort, scriptural and historical analysis is needed in both exercises.... and in the end, if there is no faith, arguments would end up being useless.

Even if they should fail to convince the atheist, it wouldn’t be useless. My faith would be strengthened, his faith (that there is no God) would be strengthened, and a witness would be given. Witness is never useless, and it will come into play - for both the atheist and myself - when we appear before the Messiah.

My point is that God is represented as speaking differently and acting differently across the entire Bible... and we believe He is still the same God.

My point is similar. The God of the Hebrew Bible is the God of the New Testament. Everything he says and does is in keeping with his character.

Do you think we have to debate this or do you agree in principle?

I’m not into debating. I did it for years and found it to be a lose-lose proposition for the debaters. Even at your mention of the word debate, I hardened my heart and mentally began digging in my heels. That’s not conducive to persuasion. Rather than debate, I dialogue. When I dialogue my heart isn’t hardened and my heels aren’t digging in. When I engage in debate, I’m not open to changing my mind. When I engage in dialogue, I’m open to the possibility of my changing my mind.

The Four Types of Conversations: Debate, Dialogue, Discourse, and Diatribe — David W. Angel

When talking with someone, it is helpful to know what type of conversation you are in. You can do so based on a conversation's direction of communication (a one-way or two-way street) and its tone/purpose (competitive or cooperative).

davidwangel.com

Do I agree in principle with what you said? No, not yet.

 

[Matthias]

The Bible says that the wicked will burn forever in a lake of fire and sulphur. It says that. Doesn't it?

No.

So, Who is the true and Only God?

The God and Father of Jesus of Nazareth, as Jesus himself and the Apostles say.

The one that says that wicked will be destroyed (as you believe), the one that says that wicked will burn forever (as most Christians and Muslims believe) or the one that says that He doesn't want anyone to perish and his purposes cannot be frustrated (as I believe)? Are these three different gods?
Is the God of the Baptists or Lutherans different than your God? How can you conclude they are wrong about what God meant, but at the same time believe their God is your God?

Yes, the God of the Baptists or Lutherans is different from my God.

****
A Note on the Crucifixion

Although the vast majority of Muslims think that a single verse in the Quran rules out the crucifixion of Jesus, there have been a minority of Muslims who have not adopted this interpretation for centuries. In addition, we Baha'is believe in the crucifixion of Jesus, while upholding the divine inspiration of the Quran.

From the perspective of those few Muslims and for Baha'is, what the Quran teaches is that the enemies of Jesus thought that, by killing Jesus, they have finished his Cause. They were deceived. This was just a mirage, a false perception. What they had killed was a man, a historical character (Jesus of Nazareth), but God had preserved the Messiah, the spiritual Christ, because His Word, His Kingdom, is eternal and cannot perish. Jesus "ascended" to Allah alive, which is a symbol of the fact that the Gospel Jesus taught can't die.

Are you telling me that there are some Muslims who believe that Allah beget a son and then crushed him?