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Genesis 3 Q&A

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by BibleStu, Jul 13, 2021.

  1. post

    post Active Member

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    Adam was not deceived.
     
  2. post

    post Active Member

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    You need to re-read Romans. Then read it again.

    Romans 5:14
    Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
     
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  3. BibleStu

    BibleStu Member

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    This is pointless. You just keep repeating yourself and failing to engage with my arguments, which I think are more deeply rooted in the words of scripture than yours are—not less.

    You need to distinguish the plain words of the Bible itself from your dogmatically-held interpretations of it.

    God doesn’t have to say “you are cursed” in order for you to be cursed. If God Almighty introduces death into the world because of your sin, and forces you to toil in sweat in the soil to which you will return, you’re cursed. The fact that God explicitly says the ground is cursed because of what you did (not “for your benefit”) does not mean that, in so doing, Adam himself is not also being cursed. Plainly, if the source of your livelihood is cursed, to that extent, so are you. And this is why many, many discussions discuss Adam’s curse (search anywhere for “Adam’s curse”).

    Also, listen: I’m posting questions and proposed answers for critique (and I’ve answered yours in spades!) on an open web forum. This doesn’t require any qualifications, it implies no authority, nor am I claiming any. Moreover, you certainly are in no position to tell me I don’t believe the Bible, when your only reason to say so is that you have a different theory about what it means. My views, on the questions we differ about, are closer to the text, period, than yours are. That is my sincere opinion. I’m OK with you disagreeing. I’m not OK with you abusing and haranguing me because you disagree. That strikes me as obnoxious and, frankly, unloving.

    Anyway, keep up the abuse and I will be forced to put you on ignore. Don’t you think a better approach would be to let people have different opinions from your Absolutely True ones, on minor issues? None of these are major issues. No, they aren’t. Go find someone else with more clearly heretical views to harangue, if you must (but please don’t).
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2021 at 11:47 PM
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  4. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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    The serpent walked upright and was able to speak...kind of makes me wonder if it was more of a dragon (like you see in movies) that are able to talk and walk upright on their back legs .....
    But after God cursed him and said he would crawl on his belly the rest of his life and eat the dust of the earth.
    Genesis 3:14, KJV: "And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:"
    “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
    Revelation 12:9 (KJV)

    Revelation 20 (KJV)
    ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
    ¹ And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    ² And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    ³ And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
     
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  5. BibleStu

    BibleStu Member

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    I’ll have to add something about this; I forgot to mention the legs.
     
  6. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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    Deceiving mankind....there were 2 trees in the garden....
    The Tree of Knowledge of good and evil and the Tree of Life...
    Genesis 3 (KJV)
    ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
    ²² And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
    ²³ Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
    ²⁴ So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
     
  7. post

    post Active Member

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    you really think your position that God cursed Adam -- tho no scripture ever says so -- is more 'rooted in the words of scripture' ?? WOW

    the words of scripture do record God cursing Satan, Cain, the ground, and a fig tree.
    the words of scripture do not record God cursing the man or the woman.
    the words of scripture record God shedding blood for their sake, at their confession, removing their garments of shame, and replacing them with garments that He Himself made for them!


    when God places the burden of your sin on a sinless substitute, He has redeemed you, not cursed you!
    His chastening is not a curse!
     
  8. post

    post Active Member

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    correcting your awful misinterpretations isn't "abuse"

    whoever hates correction is stupid.
    (Proverbs 12:1)
    i am not harmed if you decide to flee from knowledge; but you will be, and also whoever you lead astray with such Christless teaching

     
  9. post

    post Active Member

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    Woman gives no indication whatsoever that she finds it out of the ordinary another living should be communicating with her.
    For that matter, neither does Balaam show the slightest hint of surprise when his donkey speaks to him.

    Job 12:7-8
    But now ask the beasts, and they will teach you; and the birds of the air, and they will tell you; or speak to the earth, and it will teach you; and the fish of the sea will explain to you.
     
  10. BibleStu

    BibleStu Member

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    I’m done with “post”, who is seems incapable of close exegesis of text or polite debate about exegetical differences. Ignored.
     
  11. BibleStu

    BibleStu Member

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    To everyone else: it might be shameful and unpleasant, but it isn’t irrevocably damnable to be cursed. How could it, if Christ was “made a curse for us” (Gal 3:13)? But I (and plenty of commentators) find it just obvious that death, pain, enmity, toil, and having Satan as an enemy are all cursed states. They might well have been natural consequences of Adam’s choice to act outside of God’s law and thus outside his blessings; but throughout the Bible, the consequences and just punishments inflicted by God for people’s sins are also described as “curses.”

    Anyway, I’m not dogmatically insisting that Adam was cursed, or that we are because he was. We and the world are alike fallen, however, which is a state we have to deal with daily. Whether Adam’s fallenness and ours constitutes a “curse” might be a matter of pointless semantics (maybe “post” and I have different definitions or conditions). But what is certainly true is that our fallenness means we are damned—unless we are saved. The great message of the Gospel is that Jesus became a second, but perfect Adam and accepted the curse of death on himself, so that if we believe and trust in him and are born again, we will be saved (and, in eternity, every one of the curses, or challenges, or whatever you want to call them, given to Adam and Eve will be revoked).
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021 at 9:18 AM
  12. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    "considering that snakes cannot do any such thing?"

    Not now, not since God commanded him to crawl upon his belly for his evil work.

    Since this beginning misstatement is at the beginning of it all, does that mean it all falls apart?

    "Was it a real, then-ordinary snake?"

    Yes a real then-ordinary snake that could talk, and since it was commanded to crawl upon it's belly as the now-ordinary snake, it could then-ordinarily either fly or walk or crawl. Scripture doesn't say at that time, so we don't know, unless there is Scripture elsewhere showing us.

    What it does show is the difference between reading Scripture by faith with the mind of Christ, and reading the Bible by one's own human reasoning:

    "if we set aside the apparent fabulous absurdity of the story."

    I for one think I will read on, to be fascinated by what fabulous human reasoning produces.

    (If someone wants their 'study of the Bible' to be taken seriously, they really must avoid using phrases like 'fabulous absurdity' and 'popular opinion' when speaking of Scripture)

    For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. (1 Cor 3)
     
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  13. robert derrick

    robert derrick Well-Known Member

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    Which is why it is called 'Adam's transgression', because Adam owns it, not being deceived in it, but knowing full well what was happening, because he is the one that heard the commandment personally from the Lord.

    Eve was deceived, because somewhere in the ministering of God's commandment from Adam to Eve, someone decided to add to the Scripture their own little personal 'safety' rule and zero tolerance policy. (As really 'strict' Christians still do today in 'touch not, taste not, handle not'.)

    The serpent knew Eve at least was set up for failure. All he had to do was ask what God actually said, and then phrase of God said in a subtly accurate way, and Eve swung with all she had. And Adam like the coward he was watched it all to see what would happen.

    It is interesting that the Scripture against safety rules included the very things they could have done with that fruit without actually eating it. If Eve had simply batted the fruit out of the Garden, things would have gone better.
     
  14. post

    post Active Member

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    If Adam was present while Eve and the Serpent were talking, then Adam was first in transgression for failing to speak up as a watchman and as head of his wife and federal head over this creation.

    But scripture is clear that Woman was first in transgression. Therefore Adam wasn't present with her when she was deceived.
     
  15. post

    post Active Member

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    Don't you imply that God was foolish and wrong to put the tree in the garden, with that statement?

    Be careful you don't blaspheme with your understanding of Genesis 2-4!!
     
  16. Heart2Soul

    Heart2Soul Spiritual Warrior Staff Member

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    It's called the "curse of sin and death"....Jesus took upon himself the curse...as it is written "cursed is anyone who is hung on a tree
    Deuteronomy 21 (KJV)
    ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
    ²² And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
    ²³ His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
    ....also there are the "generational curses" that are passed on to the children up to 4 generations.
    The Bible mentions “generational curses” in several places (Exodus 20:5; 34:7; Numbers 14:18; Deuteronomy 5:9). God warns that He is “a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.”
     
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  17. BibleStu

    BibleStu Member

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    I.e., intelligently speak. Not yet being cursed to lose their legs (as I think) doesn’t explain why this serpent could speak and with intelligence. And I’m just laying out the possibilities to begin.
    I’ll let you decide for yourself, but nothing you’ve said so far shows that.
    Which of course there is, as I also say later in the very same answer. Also, unless you want to say that all serpents before the Fall could talk, which I doubt you do, then obviously this was no ordinary snake.
    I can see how that could be taken the wrong way, and I accept the correction. To clarify, the emphasis is on “apparent.” I will reword this so it does not sound dismissive of scripture. The point isn’t to assert that talking snakes are absurd, but to bracket any concerns about plausibility that critics might have about that, in order to take up the (to me) much more interesting question of what the snake was.
    And, well? What is your conclusion? Found anything else you can use to dismiss the entire Q&A as “fabulous”?
    I accept the rebuke because that bit was carelessly worded and could easily be misunderstood as simply dismissive of scripture. I certainly did not mean it that way. And I have to say I'm sorry if it appeared that I wished my Bible study to be taken "seriously" rather than as a humble student offering.
    Indeed. Anyone attempting to clarify scripture, or debate about it, should bear that in mind.

    Anyway, here is the first Q&A slightly rewritten.

    What was the serpent of Gen. 3:1?

    A critic might first insist on exploring the plausibility of a talking snake, but in fact before confronting the critic we must clarify what exactly is going on here. The real issue here is: considering that this apparent snake could speak and indeed tempt Eve so as to precipitate the disastrous Fall, how was that possible, considering that snakes cannot speak? Was it a real, then-ordinary snake, albeit one with legs or wings, since it was later cursed to go on its belly? Or was it, as a popular theory has it, Satan in the form of a snake? Josephus even suggests (groundlessly) that all animals before the Fall could talk, so that this was a then-ordinary snake. Now, we already know from much else in the Bible that God permits Satan to test us, as he tested Job and Jesus, and surely we would expect none less than Satan to be the cause of our downfall. Moreover, John speaks of “that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world” (Rev. 12:9); so we had better say the same, i.e., that the serpent in the Garden was Satan appearing in the body, or perhaps only the apparent form, of a snake.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2021 at 2:42 PM
  18. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Since the curse of sin and death came through Adam (Rom 5:12) it is only right to say that Adam brought a curse upon himself, upon mankind, and upon the whole creation. Indeed God cursed the ground because of Adam: And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life (Gen 3:17)
     
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  19. BibleStu

    BibleStu Member

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    Well, I agree with all of this, but "post" above was strenuously insisting that since God does not specifically say that Adam was cursed, but only that the ground was, therefore he was not actually cursed. I wouldn't insist strongly on the point, but I think we are in the right here.
     
  20. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    In the time is which we are living, Christians are always clamoring for EXPLICIT statements about things which are implied. But that is not how God gives His revelations. He did not give us a textbook of theology. No God did not say "Adam you are cursed". But it is all implied in Genesis 3, and confirmed throughout Scripture.

    ROMANS 8: CREATION IS UNDER THE BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION
    20 For the creature [CREATION] was made subject to vanity [futility], not willingly, but by reason of Him [God] who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature [CREATION] itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
     
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