Ghosts or demons or both?

[This Vale Of Tears]

Officially the Catholic Church does not subscribe to belief in disembodied spirits, what we call ghosts. Officially.

Unofficially it's a big question mark to me, though I tend to lean in the direction that paranormal events are all demonic in nature and have nothing to do with ghosts.

But the question I grapple with is why is belief in ghosts so prevalent and deep seated in the human psyche? Every corner of the globe they are believed in and for the entire history of man. Remember when even the Apostles at one point thought Jesus was a ghost?

If ghosts exist, they seem to have a few commonalities described by paranormal investigators. The death of the person was a result of a gross injustice, an infamous crime. They seem to be moored to the location where the events were reported, and they seem to have a limited understanding of their condition, their circumstances, and the living world around them. And more compelling is the fact that experience of these entities is not purely subjective because a house that's haunted affects several residents, one that moves out is followed by another resident or family that experiences similar unexplained events and apparitions.

But I have an alternate theory that points more to demons than ghosts. Because poltergeists seem to exhibit an impish desire to frighten and toy with people maliciously, it's hard for me to imagine them as human spirits. I believe when a heinous crime is committed, say a family that's slaughtered by the father, a rift is opened in the supernatural realm allowing Satan a greater manifestation than otherwise allowed. The demonic realm has to follow rules and can't do whatever it wants. It manifests itself by permission given by people, by their actions that grant consent to infestation and even outright possession. Places where these crimes occurred are "haunted" because the evil committed opened a door to the spirit world that would not otherwise be opened.

This is the theory I favor. I think the Bible is clear that it's appointed for man once to die and then comes the judgment. (Hebrews 9:27) This works against the idea of disembodied spirits haunting the earth, even in spite of the popular belief in every human culture that ghosts exist.

But I would like to hear what others think about this too.

 

[Tex]

I would agree. I don't believe human spirits roam around on earth. I don't even believe they have the ability to do such a thing.

If you're still alive after you die, you never really died.

 

[RANDOR]

Well....I started a thread called Demons...and ya all know how I feel about them........they be real.
Ahhhhhhhhhh...not because I say so...........but hey..I can say so.......because I've seen em......AND THEY HATE YOUR GUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND ALSO............the ones who are not under the blood.........will get to play with them at death.

 

[Madad21]

Good thread,.
I have always had interest in the investigations of Ed and Lorraine Warren (non-Hollywood version), An incredibly long career dealing with haunting's.
They never mention Spirits as being moved on loved ones, but they treat them as demonic apparitions. Both Ed and Lorraine where devout Christians and know more on the subject then a great many.

Personally I have never had good experiences with ghosts, but I have had evil done to me and my family by evil left behind.

I believe that Aliens and Ghosts are all part of Satans plan in continuing to keep the worlds eyes off Jesus.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Well....I started a thread called Demons...and ya all know how I feel about them........they be real.
Ahhhhhhhhhh...not because I say so...........but hey..I can say so.......because I've seen em......AND THEY HATE YOUR GUTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AND ALSO............the ones who are not under the blood.........will get to play with them at death.

That's a popular vision of hell, that the damned will be tormented by demons with pitchforks in hell, but the truth is, among the fallen angels even imps (the lowest rank) will receive far worse judgment than even the worst human being. They tormented people in this life, but in the final judgment, they won't be tormenting anyone.

And you're right that demons are full of hate which is why I can't believe that hauntings involve human beings. In movies you'll see the idea played over and over that some of these ghosts are good people who were murdered and are just seeking justice and peace, but in reality, that is actual hauntings, this is never the case. The spirits people deal with in these homes are always malevolent, hostile, and cruel. They hate the way only demons could.

Good thread,.
I have always had interest in the investigations of Ed and Lorraine Warren (non-Hollywood version), An incredibly long career dealing with haunting's.
They never mention Spirits as being moved on loved ones, but they treat them as demonic apparitions. Both Ed and Lorraine where devout Christians and know more on the subject then a great many.

Personally I have never had good experiences with ghosts, but I have had evil done to me and my family by evil left behind.

I believe that Aliens and Ghosts are all part of Satans plan in continuing to keep the worlds eyes off Jesus.

Yes, I'm actually watching the "Hollywood version" of them right now and even that is far more truthful than most Hollywood renderings of hauntings and paranormal events.

But one things I struggle with, as alluded to in the OP, is how every culture believes in ghosts along side with demons. The belief is just as prevalent, I just don't know why.

 

[Madad21]

But one things I struggle with, as alluded to in the OP, is how every culture believes in ghosts along side with demons. The belief is just as prevalent, I just don't know why.

Yes isnt it Ironic people even atheists will tell you their own ghost story's, but talk about God and your a loony.

All these ghost hunting programs are so popular, because the big question of life after death still plagues all mankind no matter the background, everyone wants to know if there is really life after we die. everyone gets a thrill by hearing the story's, seeing the videos and watching the creepy movies.

So what happens when we die, do we become ghosts to wonder the earth?

looking at it from a Christian point of view it feels as if there is a larger agenda here, a circus act to keep our eyes off what is really happening.
We're watching the sky's for lights and weird shapes, we are looking in to the after-world for ghosts and answers.
Hollywood has made megabucks perpetuating it from every angle.
So how relevant can the bible be if people are seeing all this evidence that seems to contradict biblical teachings,
We get caught up in so called "unfinished business" God not letting them beam up until all accounts are settled on earth. Ghostly activity going on inside the house telling a story of a past treachery.
Lets not forget "ancient aliens" there is a whole culture built around the belief that aliens helped build the pyramids and old world civilizations, there are even religions based on it? Its no longer God that created but advanced beings from another planet who will one day return.

I worked with a couple guys once that argued against my beliefs with ancient aliens, I seriously couldn't believe the things they were adopting as truth. but then I realized that too them it was intriguing and exciting, it tickled their ears.

I say the wool is well and truly over the eyes of many.

.

 

[Bronzesnake]

I agree, ghosts are demonic.

As for this Ancient Aliens program. If you listen carefully, you will hear key words in between their ludicrous statements, that ancient aliens are responsible for all our mysterious geography, archaeology and history.
Even when they place stories straight from scriptures with their own convoluted beliefs, you will hear them say such things as "isn't it possible" or "maybe, what we are seeing is..."
Never anything purely historical, or factual. All their proclamations in relation to ancient aliens are based purely on wild speculation.

Ancient Aliens own savior is Erich Von Daniken. His word is gospel to the commentators in that show. Funny thing is that Von Daniken has been at best, grossly incorrect in some of his major assertions, and closer to reality, has been vetted as a complete liar.
I recall one instance for example, where he was speaking about one of the huge figures etched in the ground in south America. The figure appears to have huge "alien" type eyes, and also appears to be wearing some kind of space suit, which is exactly what Von Wrong Again tells us we are looking at. However, it has been known for many years that the specific figure is actually a depiction of a fisherman, wearing traditional fishing garb. The figure actually is holding up a string of fish in one hand, and a fishing net in the other. This fact was common knowledge long before Von Lied Again came out and told us we were actually seeing some kind of ancient depiction of an alien.

OK, back to "ghosts" One of the most perpetrated lies is the one where some poor lost little girl is seen wandering around in between here and there. Why would God leave a child to wander some decrepit old house as a ghost" Did God simply forget her? Of course not. Most people who believe in such lies are not believers in Jesus and so then such a travesty becomes possible. There's inevitably some gifted psychic who comes along and leads the poor lost child to find her mother, another ghosts seen searching fro her poor lost child - so the psychic leads to one another, and then to the "light" Ridiculous! yet one of satan's most potent weapons.

Here is my web site, which deals with this subject exclusively. This page deals with what the Bible says about ghosts - http://vonbronzesnake.wix.com/hgug#!q--a/cmmb

John

 

[Madad21]

I agree, ghosts are demonic.

As for this Ancient Aliens program. If you listen carefully, you will hear key words in between their ludicrous statements, that ancient aliens are responsible for all our mysterious geography, archaeology and history.
Even when they place stories straight from scriptures with their own convoluted beliefs, you will hear them say such things as "isn't it possible" or "maybe, what we are seeing is..."
Never anything purely historical, or factual. All their proclamations in relation to ancient aliens are based purely on wild speculation.

Ancient Aliens own savior is Erich Von Daniken. His word is gospel to the commentators in that show. Funny thing is that Von Daniken has been at best, grossly incorrect in some of his major assertions, and closer to reality, has been vetted as a complete liar.
I recall one instance for example, where he was speaking about one of the huge figures etched in the ground in south America. The figure appears to have huge "alien" type eyes, and also appears to be wearing some kind of space suit, which is exactly what Von Wrong Again tells us we are looking at. However, it has been known for many years that the specific figure is actually a depiction of a fisherman, wearing traditional fishing garb. The figure actually is holding up a string of fish in one hand, and a fishing net in the other. This fact was common knowledge long before Von Lied Again came out and told us we were actually seeing some kind of ancient depiction of an alien.

Actually I saw a documentary you may be aware (I think its done by a Christian) where he believes that all this ancient alien stuff along with the fear of monster type aliens Hollywood portrays is some sort of Satanic conspiracy for the coming Antichrist, to stage an invasion of sorts. The idea being that Hollywood sets us up so that when they arrive we are so terrified from what we have seen in movies that we comply. or something like that. Its so out there it stuck in my mind.

 

[BlackManINC]

When an unbeliever dies, it seems that they aren't immediately thrown into the lake of fire but to a temporary holding place similar to it. One of the best examples of this is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man is sent to a place that doesn't at all sound very pleasant. Like the real hell, the lake of fire, this place is also a place where you are tormented by fire.

And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame - Luke 16: 22-24.

So using the process of elimination, or deductive reasoning, we see that the only disimbodied spirits that could possibly be freely roaming the earth are those of the dead giants of Genesis 6 as the extra Biblical text states. You don't even see the word demon or devil until well after the Genesis 6 event. These spirits don't just manifest themselves at will, they have to be invited in. So when there is a report of an alleged haunted house or haunted room, the more plausible reason is because occult rituals were done there. This is why Jesus expressly forbade any of us to engage in any type of spirit channeling activities. These spirits will claim to be all kinds of things to get the recipient to listen to them. They'll claim to be dead relatives, space aliens, ascended masters, or Egyptian gods, or Buddha, but they are all just demons and angels in disguise.

 

[Bronzesnake]

Hello blackman

When an unbeliever dies, it seems that they aren't immediately thrown into the lake of fire but to a temporary holding place similar to it. One of the best examples of this is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man is sent to a place that doesn't at all sound very pleasant. Like the real hell, the lake of fire, this place is also a place where you are tormented by fire.

I completely agree with you. If we study the scriptures, we see Hell is not open for business until the false prophet and the beast are thrown into the "Lake of Fire"
but the anti-Christ, which I will name Apollyon/Apollo, is put in a separate place, called the "Pit" and he is put in chains awaiting the end of the thousand year reign, where he will be released and right away he starts gathering an army of foolish humans, who will once again believe his deadly lies and fake miracles.
Apollo is released from the pit, when a "star" which translates in "angel" is sent falling down from heaven with the key to the "pit" the bottomless pit.
The Bible tells us the "bottomless pit" is in the center of the Earth. If you found yourself in the center of the Earth, all direction is up, therefore it is "bottomless"

I'm very soon, going to start a new thread where I will post some very compelling videos from stories of people who had died and were sent to the "pit"
They all seem to be describing the same place, which appear to be in a huge, enormous cavernous place, where many tunnels can be seen descending ever deeper into the pit. This is a place where demonic entities of all vile descriptions, joyfully torment perhaps millions of lost souls, day and night. Some of these people are seen in cells, which are designed not unlike the "holodeck" on the Star Trek series, where the a person would see a beautiful country scene, and the farm house their grand parents lived in. They would run toward the house, believing they are in Heaven, and that they are about see their deceased grand parents, however, before they reach the door, a tree would reach out and grab them, and beginning to slowly peel their skin off, and keep ripping away at their flesh until there's nothing but a skeleton left!
The person would feel every bit of the horrific experience, and then all of a sudden, they are right back where they started, believing they were in Heaven, and on and on like that forever, with no way to escape.

My reason for going into this detail, is to show the "pit" is not Hell, rather, it is a place of torment at the hands of the Nephilim, which are actually demons.

So using the process of elimination, or deductive reasoning, we see that the only disembodied spirits that could possibly be freely roaming the earth are those of the dead giants of Genesis 6 as the extra Biblical text states. You don't even see the word demon or devil until well after the Genesis 6 event. These spirits don't just manifest themselves at will, they have to be invited in. So when there is a report of an alleged haunted house or haunted room, the more plausible reason is because occult rituals were done there. This is why Jesus expressly forbade any of us to engage in any type of spirit channeling activities. These spirits will claim to be all kinds of things to get the recipient to listen to them. They'll claim to be dead relatives, space aliens, ascended masters, or Egyptian gods, or Buddha, but they are all just demons and angels in disguise.

Again, I totally agree. The demonic spirits we experience here on Earth, are the disembodied spirits (not souls) of the giants, or Nephilim.
The original angels who ascended to Mount Herman and concocted their foolish plan, to mate with human women, and attempt to pollute the genetic blood line of Christ.
The hybrid offspring of this forbidden alignment, are called Nephilim. The Nephilim were the giants of Greek "mythology" such as Apollo, and Zeus. The Bible, in Genesis 6 describes them as "men of renown" and they are the giants which Moses and Joshua describe as they went through these evil tribes and wiped them out on the way to the promised land.

So many people point to the scriptures where God instructs Moses, who then commands Joshua, to go into specific towns, and slaughter all men, women, children and animals!!
I get the whole "what kind of loving God does that" protest, and a good majority of Christians have no answer...well, there is a very good answer.
The people and animals which got targeted for destruction, were hybrid, Nephilim tribes, and they were demonic and vicious. They not only poisoned the genetics of God's created man, but also the created animals!!
God wanted the entire satanic blood line including genetically enhanced animals, to be totally wiped out! So if anyone gives you grief about those scriptures, now you can explain exactly why this was necessary. These demonic tribes were ravenous, and eat humans, and drank human's blood!

Anyway, this is really for a new thread.
John

 

[Enquirer]

Ghosts and demons are the same thing.

A demon is a demon we all understand that, but when it comes to ghosts many Christians are thrown by this concept.
Well is a ghost a spirit from a long dead person who somehow got "stuck" here and didn't quite make it to heaven or hell
or what is happening we don't know ?

Paul said,

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor 5:8)

As the cloud fades and vanishes, so he who goes down to Sheol does not come up; (Job 7:9) ... Sheol being the grave.

When a person dies, they are either "with the Lord" or they have vanished and are gone "as the cloud".

The story of Jesus casting out the legion of demons from the demoniac is very enlightening.

And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion, for we are many.” And he begged him earnestly not to
send them out of the country. Now a great herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside, and they begged him, saying, “Send us to
the pigs; let us enter them.” So he gave them permission. And the unclean spirits came out and entered the pigs; and the herd,
numbering about two thousand, rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the sea. (Mk 5:9 - 13)

Why did they not want to go out of the country ?
Simple, demons are territorial they wanted to stay in the area.
When a person does not have Christ in their life they are open to possession or oppression by a demon spirit and then when they die, the spirit
wants to remain in that area, house, etc.
This spirit is also known as a familiar spirit because it is familiar with the person and area.

How many of you know of stories where a particular area has a high vehicle accident rate or know of as house or area which people call "bad luck" ?
This is simply where a person has died and the spirit being territorial stays there.
And because it's a demon it's destructive in nature and so destruction or bad things happen in that vicinity.
Familiar spirits can also be seen if they so choose to do so and when they manifest they take on the appearance of the deceased and so we think
it's the dead person.
But the Scripture is quite clear, "when you're absent from the body you present with the Lord" and if you don't know Christ, then you simply go the
other way ... down to hell.

If the person dies, and because the spirit has been around that person it knows everything they have done in their lives.
So we find popular TV shows where so-called "gifted people" can talk to the departed like Aunty Mavis or Uncle Ben, but they're really talking to
a familiar spirit.
And what really gets me angry is when a mother so desperately misses her lost child that she goes to one of these people and gets conned by an
evil spirit/demon masquerading as their child.
This foul demon spirit knows exactly what they said, what they liked, their fav. colour or food and their secrets.

The only time a real deceased person ever came and spoke to someone was when God allowed it to take place in the narrative of Saul when he
went to a witch and spoke to Samuel.
Take note that Samuel was no longer floating about on earth.

Also Jesus spoke about the rich man and the beggar, did either one of them remain in some kind of ghostly form, NO, they died and both left the earthly
plane.
Whenever the Bible talks about people dying it says that they "went to their fathers", they did not hang out on earth as ghosts.
Before Christ died there was "Abraham's bosom" where the righteous dead went and the place of flames where the rest went.

After he rose from the dead that all ended because now the righteous "are present with the Lord".

Let's not be fooled by satan, these are not our father, mother, brother or sister or anyone else that appears and speaks to us it is a demon.

 

[Bronzesnake]

The only time a real deceased person ever came and spoke to someone was when God allowed it to take place in the narrative of Saul when he
went to a witch and spoke to Samuel.
Take note that Samuel was no longer floating about on earth.

I have thought about this often, and the only thing I could come up with is that Saul could not have been a ghost, because the scriptures, which you posted a couple of examples, are totally against this.
So, I liken Saul's visitation to the transfiguration experience. A ghost, is the spirit of a dead person, somehow trapped on earth, or, left in the grave and ready and able to be called up by "mediums" The "apparition" of Saul therefor, had to be the living Saul - God permitted Saul to be transfigured, as He did with Moses and Elijah in the transfiguration in the garden.
Also, many people saw Jesus after He had been crucified! Was Jesus a ghost? No.
A "ghost" is a fake representation of a dead person - a demon.

And what really gets me angry is when a mother so desperately misses her lost child that she goes to one of these people and gets conned by an
evil spirit/demon masquerading as their child.
This foul demon spirit knows exactly what they said, what they liked, their fav. colour or food and their secrets.

Yes, that really get my blood boiling also. It's despicable to take advantage of a crushed parent, by pretending you have contact with their deceased child.

So what about "haunted" houses? It is my strong believe that when a demon possessed person dies, the demon comes out of the dead body, and hangs around the person's house, hoping to find another willing person to take over.
When people go to "haunted" locations, they are in SERIOUS danger of being possessed. The following is taken from my web site "Holy Ghost, Unholy Ghost"


GHOSTS IN SCRIPTURES

The word ghost appears 108 times In the King James Version of the Bible. Of these, the word is never used in the sense of the disembodied spirit of someone who has died. It is used in only two ways. First, it is used in the phrase “to give up the ghost,” meaning “to die.” Second, it occurs as the title, “the Holy Ghost,” the third person of the Godhead or Trinity. The Bible refers to the spirits of the dead as “familiar spirits,” as in intimate association, personal, or one well acquainted , Leviticus 19:31, Deuteronomy 18:11; 2 Kings 21:6; Isaiah 8:19, etc.) and warns against having anything to do with them.


Do you believe a house can be haunted?
According to the scriptures, that is impossible -
Job 7:9-10, “As the cloud disappears and vanishes away, so he who goes down to the grave does not come up. He shall never return to his house, Nor shall his place know him anymore."
Is that clear enough?

Do the dead come back to communicate with the living?
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, “For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun.”

What if a person dies with unfinished business?
This is very often thought to be the cause of hauntings. Believe it or not, the Bible addresses this.
Psalm 146:4, "When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.”

Many people believe we become angels when we die,
however, angels have existed before humans were created.
Psalm 8:4-5, “What is man that You [Lord] are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him? For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and You have crowned him with glory and honor.”

So what does God say about those of us who try to contact the dead?
And how do demonic spirits manage to convince so many of us that we do communicate with the dead?

LEV9:31


- "‘Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God."



So God warns us not even regard any medium, and further on in this scripture God warns against psychics', witches and anyone who claims to speak to the dead.

John

 

[Enquirer]

@ Bronzesnake ... That is an excellent response, thanks for the added effort and other Scriptures, I'll be sure to bookmark this page.

 

[Bronzesnake]

@ Bronzesnake ... That is an excellent response, thanks for the added effort and other Scriptures, I'll be sure to bookmark this page.

Thank you brother.
How does a fellow all the way from South Africa find this forum?

Take care brother.
John

 

[Enquirer]

Well I belong to a "Christian" Forum which in their own words is "not looking for Biblical based truth" because it might offend others.
You can ask anything that defines the Greek, but you are not to declare any POV whatsoever.
So I got fed up and left.
Google did the rest in helping me find this site and I'm glad I searched.

The South African church is very much alive and growing rapidly, thanks to the incredible ministries from Australia, New Zealand, Canada,
the USA and UK who send their ministers our way.
We are so hungry for God and this crosses all cultures, almost daily we have Hindu's and Muslims turning to Christ.
But we are infested with witchcraft.

Just a further few verses on ghosts and demons,

But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs
shall dance there. (Isa 13:21)

If you check the translation of the word "satyrs" the word is "devils".

III. שָׂעִיר noun masculine satyr, demon (with he-goat's form, or feet; Late Hebrew id.; compare BaudStud. i. 136 ff.; hairy demons WeSkizzen iii. 135; Heid. 152 RSSemitic 113, 423: 2nd ed. 120, 441); absolute ׳שׂ Isaiah 34:14 inhabiting desolate ruins, so plural שְׂעִירִים Isaiah 13:21; name for idols 2Chronicles 11:15 and (שְׂעִירִם) Leviticus 17:7 (H); probably also ׳בָּמוֺת הַשּׂ 2 Kings 23:8 (ᵑ0 הַשְּׁעָרִים) HoffmZAW ii (1882), 175 SS Kmp Klo Kit Benz Bur.

These "satyrs" or demons inhabit homes.

Also found in Isa 34:14 (see above for the reference to inhabiting desolate ruins)

The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl
also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

It's a pity that a lot of the other Bible translation use goat or hairy goat, but in this context according to Hebrew scholars the "satyr" is a demon,
which we ascribe to ghosts haunting the place.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Lot's of great responses. I've developed a theory that I believe explains what we're seeing in scripture that describes what happens after we die, a theory I've intimated on this forum repeatedly. In the OP, I quoted a verse saying when people die, they are immediately brought to final judgment. It isn't a future event as it is for the living, for those who have died are no longer affected by time and the rules it imposes. The linear/temporal/sequential rules require everything to play out over time one after another. People in this paradigm, we the living, have to wait as events happen in sequence. So it's hard for us to imagine a realm outside of time where the beginning and the end are seen simultaneously, for the constraints of time no longer apply.

So I disagree that there's going to be a holding place for doomed souls. When people die, I believe they are immediately raised immortal to judgment, even though to us, the living, that is an event that hasn't occurred yet and may not for thousands of years if the Lord tarries.

And this leaves no place for ghosts, for if I'm right, the dead do not experience time like the living and there's no place for the dead to go except to God who created them. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

Just a further few verses on ghosts and demons,

But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs
shall dance there. (Isa 13:21)

If you check the translation of the word "satyrs" the word is "devils".

III. שָׂעִיר noun masculine satyr, demon (with he-goat's form, or feet; Late Hebrew id.; compare BaudStud. i. 136 ff.; hairy demons WeSkizzen iii. 135; Heid. 152 RSSemitic 113, 423: 2nd ed. 120, 441); absolute ׳שׂ Isaiah 34:14 inhabiting desolate ruins, so plural שְׂעִירִים Isaiah 13:21; name for idols 2Chronicles 11:15 and (שְׂעִירִם) Leviticus 17:7 (H); probably also ׳בָּמוֺת הַשּׂ 2 Kings 23:8 (ᵑ0 הַשְּׁעָרִים) HoffmZAW ii (1882), 175 SS Kmp Klo Kit Benz Bur.

These "satyrs" or demons inhabit homes.

Also found in Isa 34:14 (see above for the reference to inhabiting desolate ruins)

The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl
also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

It's a pity that a lot of the other Bible translation use goat or hairy goat, but in this context according to Hebrew scholars the "satyr" is a demon,
which we ascribe to ghosts haunting the place.

Outstanding!

 

[Bronzesnake]

Interesting theory Vale, well thought out.
I disagree though!
If that were true, then we have to figure out a way to somehow dismiss all the references in the scriptures about the "pit"
Also, scriptures such as "there's a time and place for everything"
Also, we know for certain that there is time even in Heaven, because of the souls under the alter

Rev 6
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Eternity is also based on time. So when Jesus tells us the children of satan and all unbelievers will suffer "day and night" for "eternity" we must conclude time does exist for them at least.

John

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Interesting theory Vale, well thought out.
I disagree though!
If that were true, then we have to figure out a way to somehow dismiss all the references in the scriptures about the "pit"
Also, scriptures such as "there's a time and place for everything"
Also, we know for certain that there is time even in Heaven, because of the souls under the alter

Rev 6
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Eternity is also based on time. So when Jesus tells us the children of satan and all unbelievers will suffer "day and night" for "eternity" we must conclude time does exist for them at least.

John

Thank you and that's something to think about. The Ecclesiastes passage isn't so difficult to overcome as the author is writing within the context of time and what he knows and understands, but the holy martyrs leaves pause for consideration and other references to fixed events. If not even the Son knows the hour or day of his return that means at some point the Father says "Now". Yet we know that heaven exists outside of time because of other passages that can be examined such as when Jesus declared, "Before Abraham was, I am," which when understood fully means Jesus is fully existent in all of history simultaneously. This is further driven home when we contemplate the effect of the crucifixion and resurrection, how it validated the insufficient sacrifices starting with Abel's and moved forward to be made present in every Christian communion service starting with the Last Supper, the very first of which depended on a future event. Every time we eat the bread and wine it becomes the body and blood of our Lord, one sacrifice made present in every future Eucharistic feast.

Discussions on heaven and eternity can be frustrating if we latch too dogmatically on any thing. Like Moses had a peek at God passing between rocks, we have a peek at the future and at heaven through the holy Scriptures. And if St. John had to have things explained to him during his vision, how much more are we removed from complete understanding? It's why I don't even want to attempt to make an intransigent body of doctrine out of my theory. It's a theory with holes, like many others out there, and I'm content with not being able to understand it completely.

 

[Bronzesnake]

Discussions on heaven and eternity can be frustrating if we latch too dogmatically on any thing. Like Moses had a peek at God passing between rocks, we have a peek at the future and at heaven through the holy Scriptures. And if St. John had to have things explained to him during his vision, how much more are we removed from complete understanding? It's why I don't even want to attempt to make an intransigent body of doctrine out of my theory. It's a theory with holes, like many others out there, and I'm content with not being able to understand it completely.

Great stuff Vale. You are a deep thinker, and I really love your attitude as gleaned from the quote!
Ya, I totally agree, we can never allow ourselves to believe we have anything figured out in relation to God. How can we? As soon as we say to ourselves "what God really means is..." then we usually get a gentle kick in the bum by God, just to straighten us out! :blink:

Yes, I came to the same understanding of "I Am" that is God saying I exist past, present, and future - "I Am" ...so, here's a thought...
If God lives in the past, present and future, doesn't that imply time? Even if God says I Am right now...isn't that an attribute of time also?

OK, here's an even greater mystery.
Scientists have discovered that there is a point where we can divide matter, and keep slicing matter until it gets smaller, and smaller and smaller. We used to theorize that we could keep slicing and keep slicing indefinitely, however, we now know that there is a tiny measurement, which once sliced, disappears! It no longer exists! It becomes part of everything again...again? Ya, that's what is being discussed.
So, now we believe we are actually living in a digital simulation!!
I believe it was, once we cut to 10 to minus 35 cm, matter no longer exists!
Very deep stuff.
If you're into this stuff, you'll love the Chuck Missler study on "Beyond Time and Space"
Here's the link - Beyond Space & Time

Missler is a genius and strong, faithful Christian.

Take care - great post, got me thinking
John

 

[Michael Holder]

Gods Word tells us the dead know nothing, they are basically asleep until the resurection. It also tells us not todeal with so called familiar spirits. So called ghosts are not the souls of the departed but are fallen angels ( demons ) trying to deceive us. Many will even give factually correct info for a period, but from the research ive done it seems the main agenda is convince people the departed one, regurdless of thier belief has gone to heaven and that there is no judgement.