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williemac

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In reply to the issue of the Sabbath, if I/we/you, wanted to go and preach the gospel to a jew in his place of worship, it follows that we would do it when they are actually there. This is what we see in the book of Acts. If Paul entered the synagogue on any other day, he would have had no one to preach to. The fact that he went to the Jews on their day of worship is in no way proof of endorsement of this or any of their practices. It was simply a matter of taking the path of least resistance.
We have dealt with this subject in the past and I have pointed out before, that the sabbath law has nothing to do with worship or when it is to be done. The law is simply a command to rest from one's work. That's it. That's all!!! And Paul addressed this subject in other letters, as has already been shared by others, that no one is to judge another in regards to their observance of the importance of one day over another. It is hypocritical to disobey this instruction in order to accuse others of disobedience.
 

Sabitarian

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Since you people think that the Sabbath has been done away with, please answer the questions in post 16 to prove your point. If you are unable answer any of the questions, then you need to reconsider your traditions and doctrine of man. The problem with your doctrine is there is no way to substanciate it with scripture as all scripture states the same thing from beginning to end if it is kept in context. Your new covanant is little different from the old one as all are much the same with little variation in any of them. When God decides to make any change in any of the rules, He restates it many times just sothat we might get the message, as we are stiffed necked and change for us needs to be restated many times for us to get it. Look at how many times circumcision was restated before the change was made.
williemac,
Paul taught Gentiles, yes Gentiles on the Sabbath in the Synagogue, not just Jews! If he taught Gentiles in the Synagogue on the Sabbath, why would there be any reason to assume that Gentiles were to keep the first day holy??? If Paul wanted the Gentiles to worship on the first day of the week, then he would have told them to come back on the first day to hear more of God, yet he did not,WHY?? He taught Gentiles on three consecutive Sabbaths and made no mention of the first day for worship. You are eithor Catholic or part of the fallen Protestant Church preaching and teaching the doctrine of MAN! I will pray for your repentance and return to the ways of God.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
 

williemac

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Since you people think that the Sabbath has been done away with, please answer the questions in post 16 to prove your point. If you are unable answer any of the questions, then you need to reconsider your traditions and doctrine of man. The problem with your doctrine is there is no way to substanciate it with scripture as all scripture states the same thing from beginning to end if it is kept in context. Your new covanant is little different from the old one as all are much the same with little variation in any of them. When God decides to make any change in any of the rules, He restates it many times just sothat we might get the message, as we are stiffed necked and change for us needs to be restated many times for us to get it. Look at how many times circumcision was restated before the change was made.
williemac,
Paul taught Gentiles, yes Gentiles on the Sabbath in the Synagogue, not just Jews! If he taught Gentiles in the Synagogue on the Sabbath, why would there be any reason to assume that Gentiles were to keep the first day holy??? If Paul wanted the Gentiles to worship on the first day of the week, then he would have told them to come back on the first day to hear more of God, yet he did not,WHY?? He taught Gentiles on three consecutive Sabbaths and made no mention of the first day for worship. You are eithor Catholic or part of the fallen Protestant Church preaching and teaching the doctrine of MAN! I will pray for your repentance and return to the ways of God.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
I already answered these questions in the previous post. If Paul was teaching Gentiles only, on those three consecutive saturdays, then why was he doing it in the synagogue of the Jews? Did Paul anywhere in his letters instruct the Gentiles to worship alongside the Jews on the sabbath day? Did he in any of his letters instruct anyone to keep the sabbath as a day of rest? A little bit of circumstantial evidence is all you have to offer. But in it you draw conclusions that are not confirmed anywhere in the same letters you quote from.
On the other hand, the author of the letter to the Hebrews was very specific in relating the sabbath rest as something that is entered into. It is demonstrated in that letter as a permanent state of rest. No one should be restricted by any doctrine to worship on any single day at the exclusion of the other days of the week. This is why Paul allowed his readers to observe every day the same if they so choose.
The secret that has been revealed by the Holy Spirit is that the Sabbath rest is in reality, a gift that comes to us rather than a work of law that is to be obeyed. It is clear in scripture that we are not justified by any work of law, so it is a false teaching that insists that one cannot be justified unless he keeps the seventh day law of rest.
Those who are at rest from the works of law are in fulfillment of the sabbath. No Christian who has been born again by grace through faith is in violation of the fourth commandment. Along with the gift of the new birth, comes the gift of the sabbath rest. It is a permanenet state of rest as long as one does not return to the old covenant of law keeping for justification. If he does, then no matter what he does or doesn't do on saturday, he is in a permanent state of work.
Here is the point. If one is keeping the seventh day in order to be justified, then he has not rested from "his" work. Resting in the flesh has no spiritual value. Having begun in the Spirit, we are most certainly not being made perfect by the flesh. (Gal.3:3) For if there had been a law given that could have brought life, then truly righteousness would have been by the law (Gal.3:21). For all the law is fulfilled in ONE word.."love your neighbour as yourself" (Gal.5:14).
Rom.5:1..." Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ".
The Sabbath day has not been canged to another day. It has rather been fulfilled by Christ and the experience of rest has been given as a gift. We have entered into it by faith.
Rest is rest. Worship is worship. Why do you merge the two into one? I rest every day. I worship every day. My heart does not condemn me. Rather, the Holy Spirit in me crys out.." Abba Father" to God, bearing witness in me of my place in His family and in garuntee of my inheritance.
 

Sabitarian

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williemac,
I do not write this for you as you are lost to your devices, but to those who might believe you and miss salvation, because you do not believe.
Isa 66:19-23
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
KJV
All flesh must come before God on the Sabbath, could it be more specific than this. In case you think this is the only one of this kind there are other places where the same thing is stated by God. Since Paul states clearly there is neithor Jew nor Gentile and they are the same in their worship of Him, then according to your theory God is lying. What a revelation, God is a lier according to you. Eithor Jew and Gentile follow the same worship of God or God is a liar. Since I do not believe that God Is a liar, then it is your theory that is wrong. Paul taught in the Synagogue, because it was the center of worship and his teaching of Gentiles was because the came to hear him tell about God. The Gentiles had heard that the Word of God had come to them through Paul. Yes there were Jews there as well, but they did not receive the message, like you, they rejected Paul and his teachings.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
 

williemac

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williemac,
I do not write this for you as you are lost to your devices, but to those who might believe you and miss salvation, because you do not believe.
Isa 66:19-23
19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.
21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
KJV
All flesh must come before God on the Sabbath, could it be more specific than this. In case you think this is the only one of this kind there are other places where the same thing is stated by God. Since Paul states clearly there is neithor Jew nor Gentile and they are the same in their worship of Him, then according to your theory God is lying. What a revelation, God is a lier according to you. Eithor Jew and Gentile follow the same worship of God or God is a liar. Since I do not believe that God Is a liar, then it is your theory that is wrong. Paul taught in the Synagogue, because it was the center of worship and his teaching of Gentiles was because the came to hear him tell about God. The Gentiles had heard that the Word of God had come to them through Paul. Yes there were Jews there as well, but they did not receive the message, like you, they rejected Paul and his teachings.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
You have got to be kidding. By your interpretation of the passage in Isa.66, they will come and worship Him only on the Sabbath. But it doesn't say that. If it intended to restrict worship to just one day, it would also have to include that they come and worship Him every new moon as well. So which is it...on the new moons or on the Sabbaths? The passage includes both. It is right there in plain sight.

Rather, the point of the passage is that worship will be a never ending and an ongoing thing that takes place. The passage has no intention of using just one day as a specific day or worship, but rather implies that worship will be an ongoing affair, from one time period to the next, without end. You have no idea of what you accuse me or anone else. Calling me an unbeliever? I would never dare to draw such a conclusion of others personally.

As well, this passage in no way intends to change the fourth commandment. It is a commmand to rest from one's work. Period. It is not nor ever has been a law that restricts worship to just one day of the week. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for allowing this to be your position and therefore your ammunition to make war with your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.
 

Sabitarian

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williemac,
You having eyes do not see, having ears do not hear, just as God has stated many times. The fact that God, who does not need to rest, rested on the seventh day sets and example for all to follow. Now, let us look at this in a court of law setting and list evidence for and against Sabbath worship.
1. Genesis 1:14 where God gave us a way to know when to celebrate His Sabbath's and Holy Days.
2. God Himself rested on the Seventh Day as sign for us to follow, Genesis 2:2-3 He also Hallowed and Scancitified the day of worship.
3. Exodus 20, where the Ten Commandments are listed.
4. Deuteronomy 5, where they are listed again, as we are dull of hearing and need reinforcement.
5. The Sabbath is listed 60 times in the new testament.
6. Paul teaches three Sabbath's in a row to Gentiles in the Synagogue.
The Jew's rejected his teachings, because of jealousy.
The list can be a lot longer, but in order to be fair, I will keep it short.
1. The first day is listed 8 times in the New testament, yet none in relation to worship.
2. The only ones who claim authority for first day worship is the Catholic Church and it is their badge of authority over you.
3. Never any legal proof allowably in any court of law and the $1,000,000.00 dollar reward for proof of first day worship in scripture has been offered for many years without any takers.
4. Christ never gave any comandment for first day worship, nor did He hallow or scanctify the day.
humble servant of the Lord God Most mHigh
ps in case you did not catch the name I am not claiming to be a Christian and any who teach lawlessness are not my breathern.
 

Sabitarian

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Arnie,
America was well blessed in the past and the first settlers were Puritans or Sabbath keepers. They came here in hopes of having religious freedom, as the Catholic Church was hunting them down and burning them on the cross as heritics, because they would not bend to the will of the Holy Roman Church in the end of the 1260 years of their reign of terror. Their reign of terror ended in 1798 when the Pope, Popias the VI, was sent to prison by Nepolian Bonaparts general. During the time of their reign they executed over 50,000,000 Sabbath Keepers who refused to bow to the Pope.
In the book of Revelation there is a fallen Church, but since the Roman Church had fallen during the time of the Apostle Paul, they could not be the fallen Church of this erra. That only leaves the Protestant Church to fulfill the prophesy given. So, why are they the fallen Church, could it be because they have left the laws, testimony, voice and the laws of God behind? There is no where in scripture for first day worship, the celebration of Christmas, which was made illegal in 1652 by the Puritans, Easter [Ishtar the goddess of fertility]. If you want to substanciate this put the origins of Christmas in your browser. The 12 days of Christmas are very interesting also, as all of the laws of Rome were lifted and Jews were run through the streets naked and they were beat to death. So, why Jews? In their culture a young man was set up in business by his peers and so most Jews had money and properety that was taken by those who beat them to death. "Those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to make the mistakes of History" History is a cruel teacher and to not head the lessons learned is a mistake. The Wymar Republic is a very good example of history, when Hitler was coming to power in 1928 they had the wealthy men who desired the wealth of the country to be theirs. Thus they backed all of Hitlers moves with money. Hitler caused his brown shirts to creat a sense of terror in the country and needed extrodinary power to combat this menace. All of the laws passed in the last 10 years here parallel those passed then in order to gain control of the country and their wealth. A lesson ignored by most all here.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
 

veteran

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This false idea that if you're a Catholic or a Protestant means you're not a real Christian is getting old. It's a Jewish fable and that's all there is to it! It is a false doctrine of the Judaizers, the same crept in unawares in Christ's early Church in Paul's days, converts of the blind Pharisees and such.

The Judaizers tried to lord it over the Gentiles in Christ's Church back in Paul and Peter's days, and they're still trying to do that today! And most of them follow the doctrines of Orthodox Judaism today still more than Christian Doctrine from The New Covenant writers. So it would be crazy for a Catholic or a Protestant to even bother listening to them, since they hold both in contempt as if they have some special standing with Christ that the rest of us Christians don't have!
 

Sabitarian

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veteran,
If you do not have information that can stand up in a court of law that supports your doctrine, then you have nothing to say, as all else is just the ramblings of an unlearned person. Again I must state that I am not a Jew nor have ever been one as their doctrine is as bad as yours. Plainly you do not understand Judisim and the unscriptural oral traditions they follow.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
 

veteran

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veteran,
If you do not have information that can stand up in a court of law that supports your doctrine, then you have nothing to say, as all else is just the ramblings of an unlearned person. Again I must state that I am not a Jew nor have ever been one as their doctrine is as bad as yours. Plainly you do not understand Judisim and the unscriptural oral traditions they follow.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

Don't try to threaten me with the law you white-washed wall. Your fathers tried to do that same things in the Apostle's days with threatening them and God brought a destruction upon those Judaizers back then. If you choose to remain on the old Phariseeic doctrines of the false Jews then your ignorance places you in the same dangers they will face in the near future.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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If you do not have information that can stand up in a court of law that supports your doctrine, then you have nothing to say, as all else is just the ramblings of an unlearned person.

I will take you to court Sabitarian and you will lose your claim to know the true sabbath day.

You would need a calendar from the time of Moses until today to prove your case

Such a calendar does not exist , besides it is impossible .

A week has 7 days X 52 is only 364 days

But we know there are 365.2422 days in a year

So we give every 4th year 366 days.

But that is not perfectly accurate either , the earth's rotation slows slightly every year.

Not only that .... remember the Jewish calendar had only 360 days in a year.

You are screwed Sabitarian .... the true sabbath day could very well be next Wednesday .... not Saturday as you assume.

To win my argument I would simply tell the judge that I work 6 days and observe sabbath on the 7th day which just happens to be on Sunday

The judge would rule in my favor because I have followed the commandment exactly.

Get over it Sabitarian ..... your sabbath anguish is unhealthy.
 

Sabitarian

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Arnie,
Have you ever looked at a calendar, the 7th day is Saturday on all calendars that I have ever looked at. Besides there are many who have studdied the calendar from the time of Christ until now and have found that Wednesday was the 10th and Thursday was the 15th day of the month, yet the days of the week ave never changed nor ever fallen ouf of line with each other, thus it is more than possible to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the days of the week are in the same rotation that they have always been in. Yes the calendar has been updated many times, but the days of the week have never changed. Christ died on Wednesday and just before sunset He was entombed in 31AD. He arose just at sunset on Saturday the Sabbath. Thus fulfilling His words to the Pharasees of the sign of Jonah. See how nicely that follows scripture!
veteran, Please provide proof positive for your traditions of man and I will listen to them, but if they do not line up with scripture they are pagan, as you well know by now. The only place that has any evidence for yout traditions is in catholic literature, as none exists in scripture or you would have collected the reward by now and been rich. Name calling is the tactic of he who has no proof, thus you have already declaired that you have no clue. No rebutal without proof is allowed in a court of law, you have none thus the name calling. May you eventually see the truth of scripture and return to Christ.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Arnie,
Have you ever looked at a calendar, the 7th day is Saturday on all calendars that I have ever looked at.

On my calendar Saturday begins at midnight Friday night and ends Saturday midnight. So does your calendar sir.

Yet we all know that the Jewish sabbath begins at sundown Friday and ends at sundown Saturday.

If you are trying to tell me to use a modern calender to determine sabbath .... you are screwed ... it will not work.
 

Sabitarian

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Arnie,
You just have to dispariage anything that I say in order to discredit me in hopes that I will go away. Wow, that has been tried a long time ago and it never worked then and will not work now. I have know of your supposed new truths to me for a very long time and also understand the calendar of God and know that it had 13 months at times and the new year begins in the spring of the year and not mid winter, thus I doubt that there is anything of your knowledge that I have not known for years. I read the entire book cover to cover in under 8 months and then begin again and have for many years now, thus have a good knowledge of what is in it. That is why I understand prophesy as it is in both Daniel and Revelations. The time of the tribulation is upon us and the time that is allowed for repentance will be very short and you will eithor choose God and His Sabbath's or man and his traditions. Once the truth is revealed to you there will be very short time for convertance to God's side. If you miss the close of that window you will know the love of God just before you cease to exist, forever.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Arnie,
You just have to dispariage anything that I say in order to discredit me in hopes that I will go away.

Not at all sabitarian . I do not hope you will go away. All I am trying to do is show you that somebody has screwed with your head trying to tell you that only they know the true sabbath. I blame your teachers. Not you.

If I gently kidnapped you and your family and all your church associates ...... and put you in a sealed hold of a comfortable ship without windows or clocks or calendars of any sort ..... sailed the seas for a long time ..... then dropped you off on a paradise island and set you free ...... how would you know what day it was ?

You would not of course.

So you decide to work the next 6 days and make your sabbath the 7th day and observe it from then on.

Have you kept the commandment ? I would say yes you have.

Even if your 7th day was Wednesday on a secular calendar you have kept the sabbath in a proper way.


Furthermore Sabitarian ..... if I phoned you at 4pm Saturday October 20th you would tell me it is the true sabbath. No problem.

But right at the same moment I could also phone my friend in Australia and he would also tell me he is observing the sabbath ..... at exactly the same time you are ..... but his calendar says it is Sunday October 21st.

And If I phoned a friend in Israel , he would tell me it is 11 pm Saturday Oct 20th and the sabbath ended several hours ago at sundown.

Which of the three is correct sabitarian ?

Or are all three correct. ?

I say all three are correct.

As Christians who observe sabbath on Sunday we are not your enemies Sabatarian. That is my point. And we are not enemies of the gospel or the commandments.

Using my secular calendar I would agree that Saturday is the Jewish sabbath even though I usually observe Sunday and go to church Sunday.

But I would never fault anybody on paradise island who happened to observed a Wednesday Sabbath.

I expect we will all get to the same heaven.

I expect Moses will be there too.

Best wishes.
Arnie
 

Sabitarian

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Arnie,
You still do not get it, the sign of God is the Sabbath and if you desire salvation and have any hope of being granted Grace, you need to do the works of the law, observe the Sabbath's of God. If you had never had the Word of God and did the works of the law, without knowing God you would have an excuse for not keeping the Sabbath's, but you do have the Word of God, thus have no excuse for not keeping the Sabbath's of God. I have converted from first day worship all by myself, with no other input than the Lord God to guide me. I started out in a Baptist Church in the late fourties and then went to many other denominations including Catholic and all were the same. None of them wanted anything to do with a kid who only had the money he made from a paper route, as it was not enough. Because of the treatment that I got in all of these Churches I did not go back to Church for many years. I went back to a Baptist Church in the town closes to me and Stilll got the same treatment as a grown man as I did as a kid, I was not wealthy, thus was of no use to them. I reread the word many different times and finally came to the revelation that I was not suppose to go to a secular Church, but a Sabbath Keeping one. There I was welcomed with open arms and they were glad to have me there, plus my knowledge of scripture was welcome also. I have visited several Sabbath Keeping Churches and get the same open armed welcome in all of them. I do not always agree with all that they believe, yet we agree to disagree amicabily. The base doctrine is the same in all of the ones that I have visited, thus I have a home in all of them. So there is no reason that you should try to convert me as my Lord has done that already for me.
The Jews have kept the same day of worship since they were a nation, thus have it all down pat, no mistakes here. You need not worry about my having the wrong day of worship as it has not changed since time began. As I told you there have been adjustments in the number of the days, yet never a loss of the days of the week. Even when France decided to do away with religion and went to a 10 day week, the Jews still kept the order of the days 1-7 in line. Even when they killed 50,000 Sabbath Keepers in one night the Jews of other countries kept the days in order, so there has been no loss of the days of the week, even when the number of the day changed. Your anology is false as it does not pretain to fact, only your imagination.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Arnie,
You still do not get it, the sign of God is the Sabbath and if you desire salvation and have any hope of being granted Grace, you need to do the works of the law, observe the Sabbath's of God. If you had never had the Word of God and did the works of the law, without knowing God you would have an excuse for not keeping the Sabbath's, but you do have the Word of God, thus have no excuse for not keeping the Sabbath's of God. I have converted from first day worship all by myself, with no other input than the Lord God to guide me. I started out in a Baptist Church in the late fourties and then went to many other denominations including Catholic and all were the same. None of them wanted anything to do with a kid who only had the money he made from a paper route, as it was not enough. Because of the treatment that I got in all of these Churches I did not go back to Church for many years. I went back to a Baptist Church in the town closes to me and Stilll got the same treatment as a grown man as I did as a kid, I was not wealthy, thus was of no use to them. I reread the word many different times and finally came to the revelation that I was not suppose to go to a secular Church, but a Sabbath Keeping one. There I was welcomed with open arms and they were glad to have me there, plus my knowledge of scripture was welcome also. I have visited several Sabbath Keeping Churches and get the same open armed welcome in all of them. I do not always agree with all that they believe, yet we agree to disagree amicabily. The base doctrine is the same in all of the ones that I have visited, thus I have a home in all of them. So there is no reason that you should try to convert me as my Lord has done that already for me.
The Jews have kept the same day of worship since they were a nation, thus have it all down pat, no mistakes here. You need not worry about my having the wrong day of worship as it has not changed since time began. As I told you there have been adjustments in the number of the days, yet never a loss of the days of the week. Even when France decided to do away with religion and went to a 10 day week, the Jews still kept the order of the days 1-7 in line. Even when they killed 50,000 Sabbath Keepers in one night the Jews of other countries kept the days in order, so there has been no loss of the days of the week, even when the number of the day changed. Your anology is false as it does not pretain to fact, only your imagination.
humble servant of the Lord God Most High

Best wishes sabitarian.

If I didn't know better I would say you are expecting something along the lines of a Jewish synagog and a life under the law.
 

Sabitarian

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Arnie,
During the reign of Christ we will be required to keep the Holy Days or not receive rain in due seacon, thus go hungry for our unwillingness to follow the laws of God. Look this up if you have any questions as I doubt that you have ever read through the Old testament. The Testament that Christ and Paul taught from was the Old Testament as the new had not been written as yet as the first book of the new was written in 44 AD long after the death of Christ. You really need to read the entire book over and over again until it makes sense to you, as you do not have a grasp of the true meaning of the Word. humble servant of the Lord God Most High
 

jiggyfly

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Arnie,
You still do not get it, the sign of God is the Sabbath and if you desire salvation and have any hope of being granted Grace, you need to do the works of the law, observe the Sabbath's of God.

19 Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people.20 Now a mediator is helpful if more than one party must reach an agreement. But God, who is one, did not use a mediator when he gave his promise to Abraham.21 Is there a conflict, then, between God’s law and God’s promises? Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it.22 But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.
Gal 3:19-22 (NLT)

You should try reading the scriptures and learn their meaning before trying to teach others.