God Is Against The Fly Away Doctrines

[veteran]

Did you know God is against the Pre-trib 'fly away' idea?

Ezek 13:16-23
16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.

Not too far in our near future, the Pre-trib school is going to lay it on thick to its believers to get ready to fly... away to escape the coming tribulation.

17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

Per Ezek.13:5, God is giving this Message especially to the "house of Israel". That meant the ten tribes only after their split and scattering. The ten tribes have some false preachers among them that operate like foxes in the desert (Ezek.13:4). They prophesy out of their own heart and claim The LORD said this or that, when He didn't speak to them at all (Ezek.13:6).


18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

That idea of sewing pillows to all armholes is an expression about how preachers following their own heart put coverings over the arms and heads of God's people to hide Him, just so they can preach their own doctrines. God asks them, "will ye save the souls"? Who only can save our soul? God through His Son Jesus Christ only.



19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

Our Heavenly Father is pretty angry at those preachers who hunt the souls. Lot of them only preach for gain, for money, status, a house with a swimming pool, i.e., perks, treating it like a business. God asks them will they slay the souls that shouldn't die, and save the souls that should not live, by preaching lies? "Ah brother, or sister, you know you can't sin anymore, you don't need to repent, just believe and you'll be saved!", some of them would say.


20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

For those who may not be aware, the Pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is also called the 'fly away' doctrine by some. The reason is because it teaches Christ's Church is going to be raptured to Heaven prior to the tribulation, to wait it out there while the Antichrist does his great deceptions on earth. They've even written gospel songs about that idea of flying away.

The hard Truth in God's Word is that nobody is going to 'fly away' to Heaven, and definitely not prior to the great tribulation. And at Christ's coming, He comes back to this earth, to Jerusalem, and that's where He will gather His saints as written (Zech.14). That event will involve everybody still alive on earth being 'changed' at the 'twinkling of an eye' to their "spiritual body" (1 Cor.15; Isaiah 25).

21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)

On that day of Christ's coming, He is going to deliver the deceived believers out of the hands of those false preachers who hunt peoples souls to make them fly, and those who allow the wicked to continue while promising them life. God's judgment will begin at His sanctuary first.

 

[rockytopva]

The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. - Psalm 90:10

 

[Joshua David]

Did you know God is against the Pre-trib 'fly away' idea?

Ezek 13:16-23
16 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD.

Not too far in our near future, the Pre-trib school is going to lay it on thick to its believers to get ready to fly... away to escape the coming tribulation.

17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,

Per Ezek.13:5, God is giving this Message especially to the "house of Israel". That meant the ten tribes only after their split and scattering. The ten tribes have some false preachers among them that operate like foxes in the desert (Ezek.13:4). They prophesy out of their own heart and claim The LORD said this or that, when He didn't speak to them at all (Ezek.13:6).


18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of My people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?

That idea of sewing pillows to all armholes is an expression about how preachers following their own heart put coverings over the arms and heads of God's people to hide Him, just so they can preach their own doctrines. God asks them, "will ye save the souls"? Who only can save our soul? God through His Son Jesus Christ only.



19 And will ye pollute Me among My people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to My people that hear your lies?

Our Heavenly Father is pretty angry at those preachers who hunt the souls. Lot of them only preach for gain, for money, status, a house with a swimming pool, i.e., perks, treating it like a business. God asks them will they slay the souls that shouldn't die, and save the souls that should not live, by preaching lies? "Ah brother, or sister, you know you can't sin anymore, you don't need to repent, just believe and you'll be saved!", some of them would say.


20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

For those who may not be aware, the Pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is also called the 'fly away' doctrine by some. The reason is because it teaches Christ's Church is going to be raptured to Heaven prior to the tribulation, to wait it out there while the Antichrist does his great deceptions on earth. They've even written gospel songs about that idea of flying away.

The hard Truth in God's Word is that nobody is going to 'fly away' to Heaven, and definitely not prior to the great tribulation. And at Christ's coming, He comes back to this earth, to Jerusalem, and that's where He will gather His saints as written (Zech.14). That event will involve everybody still alive on earth being 'changed' at the 'twinkling of an eye' to their "spiritual body" (1 Cor.15; Isaiah 25).

21 Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver My people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22 Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23 Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver My people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)

On that day of Christ's coming, He is going to deliver the deceived believers out of the hands of those false preachers who hunt peoples souls to make them fly, and those who allow the wicked to continue while promising them life. God's judgment will begin at His sanctuary first.

Veteran,


I don't see anything that you posted that even remotely suggests that God is against the Pre-trib doctrine. I see you doing the exact same thing that you accuse us doing which is taking scripture and building a case by taking things out of context. So it is so very wrong when you accuse us of doing it, but it's only one sided because people who believe in the Post trib doctrine can do it without any problems right?




Most people who believe in the pretrib doctrine, do not believe that Israel and the Church are the same thing. Therefore, they see ( unsaved ) Israel going through the tribulation. If they were here on this forum saying that Israel will not go through the tribulation, then I can see where your argument has a shred of merit, but as it is, all I see it as another twisting of scripture by the Post tribulationist that I have come to expect.


Joshua David

 

[Joshua David]

Veteran,

I don't see anything that you posted that even remotely suggests that God is against the Pre-trib doctrine. I see you doing the exact same thing that you accuse us of doing which is taking scripture and building a case by taking things out of context. So it is so very wrong when you accuse us of doing it, but it's only one sided because people who believe in the Post trib doctrine can do it without any problems right?


Most people who believe in the pretrib doctrine, do not believe that Israel and the Church are the same thing. Therefore, they see ( unsaved ) Israel going through the tribulation. If they were here on this forum saying that Israel will not go through the tribulation, then I can see where your argument has a shred of merit, but as it is, all I see it as another twisting of scripture by the Post tribulationist that I have come to expect.


And before you even begin to suggest I look at the 144,000. Please take note that they are sealed after the tribulation has already started. Thank you.



Believing in a pretribulation rapture also has nothing to do with 'hiding God from anyone' or 'preaching for worldly money or gain'. I get so sick and tired of people declaring that "God is angry" at us, or that we are leading people away from God. I can't speak for anyone else, but a belief in a pre-trib rapture has only increased my sense of urgency to reach out to my friends and family that are lost, and bring them to God. If you look at the people who have had the most impact on world evangelism, it has been people who believe in the pre trib doctrine.


If I knew that Jesus would not return until after the Tribulation, wouldn't my natural (carnal ) instincts be to wait. If they don't believe me now, just wait until the tribulation starts, they will believe me then. But because I believe in the pretrib doctrine, I feel this growing sense of urgency to reach them NOW. We all see signs that the tribulation is very, very close. Is this sense of urgency against God? Yes we all know that tomorrow is not promised to any man, but man is perfectly capable of forgetting that lesson. This is the exact reason that the sudden death of a loved one, especially one who died young hits us so hard, because it is so unexpected. We always feel that there is always more time.


I can tell you the truth. If I did not believe in the pretrib doctrine, I would not have the same sense of urgency to reach out to those people as I do now, because I know that there is still some time.


I don't mind debating post trib vs pre trib, but when you guys come on here and start threads and intentionally misrepresent the pretrib doctrine, and make claims that those that believe in the pretrib doctrine are teaching this or that, when quite honestly that is not the case, at least for the majority of the believers in pre-trib, then you are testifying a false witness against your brothers and sisters in Christ. And I know for a fact, THAT is talked about in the bible and God DOES take a very dim view of.


So do us all a favor. Stick to the facts and leave your petty crusade against those of us who believe Jesus when he said that he would keep us from the trial that is coming upon the whole earth at home. OK?


Joshua David

 

[Foreigner]

Well Said, Joshua David.


Well said.

 

[veteran]

Veteran,

I don't see anything that you posted that even remotely suggests that God is against the Pre-trib doctrine. I see you doing the exact same thing that you accuse us doing which is taking scripture and building a case by taking things out of context. So it is so very wrong when you accuse us of doing it, but it's only one sided because people who believe in the Post trib doctrine can do it without any problems right?

Most people who believe in the pretrib doctrine, do not believe that Israel and the Church are the same thing. Therefore, they see ( unsaved ) Israel going through the tribulation. If they were here on this forum saying that Israel will not go through the tribulation, then I can see where your argument has a shred of merit, but as it is, all I see it as another twisting of scripture by the Post tribulationist that I have come to expect.


Joshua David

Well of course you don't, because you are on the Pre-tribulation rapture doctrine yourself. You mentioned unsureness about it somewhat in the rapture thread, but you've shown already you've decided to accept it regardless of what God's Word declares about it.

You'll have to wait and let Christ show you about it, and He will. I've warned about accepting the Pre-trib doctrine, and have shown Biblically how it is false. I've done my job for Christ Jesus, the rest is up to what each soul decides for themselves.


What's truly amazing about the 'fly away' Pre-trib doctrine, is that support for it comes from everywhere, EXCEPT God's Word The Bible.

 

[Foreigner]

As I said, Joshua David.

Outstanding post.

 

[Joshua David]

Well of course you don't, because you are on the Pre-tribulation rapture doctrine yourself. You mentioned unsureness about it somewhat in the rapture thread, but you've shown already you've decided to accept it regardless of what God's Word declares about it.

You'll have to wait and let Christ show you about it, and He will. I've warned about accepting the Pre-trib doctrine, and have shown Biblically how it is false. I've done my job for Christ Jesus, the rest is up to what each soul decides for themselves.


What's truly amazing about the 'fly away' Pre-trib doctrine, is that support for it comes from everywhere, EXCEPT God's Word The Bible.

Just because I am open to being wrong, doesn't mean that I still can't defend my beliefs passionately. And it doesn't mean that I won't come on here and call someone on twisting the scriptures when I see it. I have heard this kind of garbage over and over from people who believe in the Post tribulation rapture.

I have heard that the pretribbers believe in the Pre-trib rapture because we are...

1) Lazy - and yet like I said, believing in the pretribulation rapture has given me a greater sense of urgency to reach out to the unsaved. I know of quite a few of the Evangelist that are taking the Word of God to the Unsaved and they believe in the Pretrib rapture.. I have to say, I can't remember a single person who has declared that he believes in a post trib rapture going out and evangelizing, that I am aware of. I am not saying that they are not out there, just that I am not aware of them. If Pretribbers are lazy, and they are doing all the work, what does that make post tribbers? Dead? The people that have done the most in spreading the Gospel to the unsaved have been those who believe in the pretribulation rapture.

2) having an escapist mentality - At least this one has grain of truth, unlike the first one. Do I have an escapist mentality? Well I guess it would depend on what you consider an escapist mentality. Do I believe that I will not be here during the seven year tribulation? No I do not. Does this mean that I believe that tribulation can not come to America, or to the Church before the Tribulation? Absolutely not. I know that we experience trials and tribulations here on earth. And while America has been greatly blessed by God, America is not above being punished by God. In fact, I have been expecting for Judgment to fall on America for sometime now, and it is only by the grace of God, and the mercy of God that it hasn't already. I believe that I could very well be put into a situation where I just might have to give my life for Jesus. I have thought long and hard on this exact subject. Do I believe that we are above being put into these types of situations? Absolutely not.
Now has there been people who may have taken this view? Absolutely. Especially the Health and Wealth crowd. I'm just saying that this view does not represent most of the people who believe in the pretrib doctrine.

3) That we are doing Satan's work - This is the one that is just sad. AGAIN look at what I said in the first one. The people that have done the most in spreading the Gospel to the unsaved have been those who believe in the pretrib rapture. Yeah, Satan is just loving that. If anything I would say that believing in the Post tribulation Rapture serves Satan better, because most of the post tribbers that I have talked to, all they are concerned about is 'preparing themselves' for what is to come. Although they are just a little confused on exactly what they are to do to prepare themselves. I wonder why something so important was left at best vague in the bible and at worst, left completely out of the bible. hmmm... makes you think don't it. Although they can't really agree on what exactly they are suppose to do to prepare themselves, they go on and on about how important it is to prepare themselves, and unless we prepare ourselves, we are going to take the mark. Which is why the pre-trib doctrine is so dangerous. Don't you see. You must prepare yourself or you will get suckered by the Antichrist. Or you will be so disappointed that you were wrong about the Rapture that you will automatically just run out and take the Mark the first chance you get. Don't you see how self-centered that view is? My focus is on reaching out to the lost and telling them that God loved them, and that NOW is the time to get right with God. I tell people that the tribulation is coming, and you can see signs of it everywhere. I tell them that now during this Age, now is the time to get right with God. Post tribbers are more concerned with prepareing themselves. Oh you might tell someone about what is coming, but you figure that if you tell them and they don't get it, just wait until the tribulation starts, then they will be beating down your door to learn what is going on. This is the exact attitude that I have personally seen in the post trib crowd, and if fact, if you are honest, this is the exact attitude that you show in this thread. Now that does NOT mean that everyone who believes in the post tribulation doctrine believe exactly this way, all it means is that this is most common attitude that I have seen. So let's recap.. On one hand you have someone who is concerned about reaching out to the Lost NOW before the tribulation starts, and if they don't receive it, to keep trying as best you can because you don't want them to experience the awful tribulation that is coming upon the entire earth. On the other hand you have someone who is concerned about 'prepareing themselves' and if they do talk to someone and they don't get it, well they will learn when the tribulation starts, after all there is still time... I can definitely see Satan supporting one position over the other, but out of the two, I see him favoring the Post trib doctrine over the pretrib.

I see Satan doing his best to convince as many people as he can that the rapture is post-tribulation. Which makes me wonder when I see Thread after thread attacking the pretrib doctrine. There is a difference in defending your position on a matter and attacking another position. I seen over and over on this forum and others, the pretrib position attacked over and over and over. This thread is a perfect example. You could have started a thread and explain why you believe in the post tribulation doctrine, and why you feel that it is the superior doctrine over the pretrib, mid-trib, or pre-wrath doctrine, but you didn't. You just wanted to attack the pretrib doctrine. Not only that, but you did so through fraudulent means by equating the Pretrib doctrine with the "Health and Wealth" crowd, and by implying that if you believe in the pretrib doctrine, they you believe you have a licence to sin.

That is not only wrong, as belief in either of those things has nothing to do with the pretrib doctrine, but it is slander. You have done a perfect job of representing your beliefs. You attack other position with lies and half-truths. Sounds to me as if you were being led by Satan instead of the Holy Spirit, for that is exactly how Satan operates.

Joshua David

 

[tomwebster]

The people that are trying to warn you about the false doctrine of "rapture" are in trying to keep you from walking in front of a moving train. Both will kill you. Some think, "It doesn't matter which you believe," but to does matter. Your choice of rapture will lead to death.

 

[Joshua David]

The people that are trying to warn you about the false doctrine of "rapture" are in trying to keep you from walking in front of a moving train. Both will kill you. Some think, "It doesn't matter which you believe," but to does matter. Your choice of rapture will lead to death.

I think you left out a word or two in your reply because I am not really sure what you meant. Would you mind explaining how believing in the Rapture will kill you?


Joshua David

 

[tomwebster]

I think you left out a word or two in your reply because I am not really sure what you meant. Would you mind explaining how believing in the Rapture will kill you?


Joshua David

It will kill you spiritually. Satan is death, those that fly away to him will worship him which will lead them to spiritual death and they will remain dead for a thousand years to be tested one final time.

 

[Foreigner]

It will kill you spiritually. Satan is death, those that fly away to him will worship him which will lead them to spiritual death and they will remain dead for a thousand years to be tested one final time.

- Yeah, that's officially ridiculous.

Someone believing in the Rapture does not automatically make them a victim of Satan's influence or any less Christian than you are.

You are simply not qualified to make these assumptions.

 

[tomwebster]

- Yeah, that's officially ridiculous.

Someone believing in the Rapture does not automatically make them a victim of Satan's influence or any less Christian than you are.

You are simply not qualified to make these assumptions.

OH! Not an assumption, God's Word not mine. But you can believe anything you want.

 

[Foreigner]

Problem is, I have seen all the "God's Word" you have spoken and NONE of it addresses this specific topic.

Try again.

 

[tomwebster]

Problem is, I have seen all the "God's Word" you have spoken and NONE of it addresses this specific topic.

Try again.

Like I said, "you can believe anything you want." You have been warned.

 

[Joshua David]

OH! Not an assumption, God's Word not mine. But you can believe anything you want.

So you say, but could you please explain what scriptures led you to this conclusion? If it is truly God's words, then tell us where in God's Word it says this.


Joshua

 

[tomwebster]

So you say, but could you please explain what scriptures led you to this conclusion? If it is truly God's words, then tell us where in God's Word it says this.


Joshua

It has already been written many times on this forum, search for it and read it.

 

[australia]

It will kill you spiritually. ..they will remain dead for a thousand years...

Are you saying the spiritually dead won't become spiritually alive during the millennium? Isn't that the millennium's purpose?

 

[Foreigner]

It has already been written many times on this forum, search for it and read it.

- He does not support. He only accuses.

Like I said, "you can believe anything you want." You have been warned.

-- If only someone who knew what they were talking about would say that. From you? Meh.

 

[Joshua David]

It has already been written many times on this forum, search for it and read it.

You know you have a very bad habit of making all kinds of accusations, but never once that I have every found, have you ever provided supporting evidence.


I actually find you similar to clouds without water. When you speak it is of no substance.


Joshua David