God is not so Good: Rethinking Christian Theology

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

jam

New Member
Apr 1, 2013
6
1
1
Nagaland, India
I would like to share my recent study I posted on my [link removed]


“God is so good, God is so good, God is so good, is so good to me.”

This is the song we all sang in our Sunday school days and even today. But is God good to all? I am bringing in the question of the “All Benevolent God.” Let us also keep in mind throughout this reading that God is also omnipresent and omnipotent. What does it actually meant when we say that God is all benevolent? Is God someone who loves everyone and looks at everyone with absolute equity and with no partiality?
The centuries old question “Why there is suffering, violence and evil in the world if there is God who is all present, all powerful and all loving?” keeps hitting us even today. And none could give a fitting answer till date. My burden is not on giving an answer to that question, but rethinking Christian Theology on what God is and is not.
We know that all human being from childhood have the nature to have the best and claim what s/he has as the best. And this is exactly what happened with Christian theology. Christians ascribe all good things to God; I am not telling they are wrong, but this shadowed the true nature of God and what God really is. Here, I am also not telling that we can know God to the fullest. If we can, I wouldn’t be writing this. In simple human thought and sense, can we call someone who destroyed the world as all loving and good? But this is exactly what Christians and Christian theology is doing.
Let us flash back to the catastrophic events in the Biblical story as a bystander. Now watch the horrific flood in Noah’s time, watch the holocaust in Sodom and Gomorrah, the epidemic of the ten plaques in Moses’ time and God taking side with Israel in Joshua’s time in the conquest of Canaan. God definitely had a good reason for His acts, and this is what Christians have been presenting as an argument to the centuries old debate on the problem of evil. But can we as human being, in plain simple sense and thought, call someone who did or does that as all loving? And to the one who is capable of turning the table of anyone, anything, anywhere and anytime? I think rethinking Christian theology on this matter is the need of the hour and the need of every Christians.
Every human has an innate nature of longing and quest for perfection and everybody has the notion of perfect. This innate nature in every human being brings in the concept that there is a state of absolute perfect or perfect being. I am not telling that this reasoning is wrong. But when human reason on God and its attributes, they naturally assume and claim that God is this and that, probably based on their experience. See and hear the cry of a sinner saved from his sins and turning to God, “Oh how great thou art, you are an awesome God, all loving and merciful, who saved a wretch like me.” Can this expression be taken as a maxim? Now, let us think about what Pharaoh would have thought of the Christian God after his son was killed, his army swallowed by the Red Sea? Here, I could only think of the dialogue of Dharmendra, an old time mega Bollywood star, “Kutte, Kamine, tera khoon pee jao wung ga.” Please Google translate the quoted Hindi texts if you want to know what it says.
We cannot just rely and be content with someone’s personal experience and view on God of a particular time, place and situation. And this is also the case in the biblical record of God and about His attributes. Therefore, we must ask, “Is it God’s direct declaration, or exaltation or exclamation of a particular person recorded by biblical writers?” such as in the Psalms by David. Is God really what we think of Him today? Are we missing any? Or have we added much of our own views? We need to dig deeper on this theologically.
I am well aware that some few section of Christians who called themselves as fundamental Bible believing Christians who practices bibliolatry will react negatively to my thesis; but I am also well aware that truth will prevail in its own due time, which is not a burden of mine.
One may try to defend God as someone who looks with everyone with absolute equity and with no partiality. Or that He is not violent. Can anyone buy that after studying God’s dealings and judgements with mankind throughout history recorded in the Bible?
There is a problem to state God as someone who looks with everyone with absolute equity and with no partiality and to say He is not violent. If we study the Old Testament, it is surely not. The Israelites are special chosen people of God, God himself declared them as “My People.” See the exclusive declaration there. Upon reading the story, we know that despite God’s faithful presence and deliverances from many situations, they rebel against God; they even began to worship other gods. Still then God was gracious to them. Now let’s ask this question, why God gave the land of Canaan to the Israelites? Some had tried to defend this by saying that the Canaanite were too evil and are needed to be destroyed. But this is not the case. Long ago, God promised Abraham the possession of the Canaan land. Why should God make a covenant with only one people and left the rest? We cannot call that absolute equity, can we? There is some preference, and Israelites enjoys a special status than the rest of mankind.
We cannot ignore or justify the violent act of God theoretically alongside with other idealistic belief and world-views. Such as destroying the world in Noah’s time, Sodom Gomorrah in Abraham’s time, the 10 plaques in Egypt in Moses’ time and the conquest of Canaanite in Joshua’s time. For God Himself said, “I form the light, and create darkness: I makes peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things” (Isaiah 45:7). We are not assuming that evil necessarily comes out of Him. But He did allow or use evil people as a tool to bring judgements on others. However, we cannot describe God as evil for the violent act simply that He is the creator. We are created out of nothing for His pleasure and glory. He can do anything for His pleasure and glory. And this act does not make Him something which He is eternally not.
One may find different views and examples to support their own stand but the real necessity is to know whether God is really what we have been thinking of. Many Christian think of Jesus as a kind generous man who willingly suffered at the hand of many men. This nice “Lamb of God” concept is not totally wrong but not all right either. Focus on the reaction and behaviour of Jesus when the temple was misused by the people for business. He did what a “lowly white good lamb” probably wouldn’t be doing. From the perspective of the Pharisees of His time, he was a hostile man, a proud man, a socio-religious rebel. This view cannot be ignored because that was one of the root reason leading to His crucifixion. Same as this, Christians are missing the dot here when it come to the attribute of God.
Again, it is stated in the Bible that God is a jealous God. When someone gives to another something that rightly belongs to Him (Exodus 20:4-5) which is in regards to people worshipping idols; this type of jealousy is not wrong. Perhaps a practical example will help us understand the difference. If a man sees another man flirting with his wife, he is right to be jealous, for only he has the right to flirt with his wife. If God is a jealous God, then the consequences in the judgment will not be the same. There can be no absolute equity between believers and non-believers. Suppose, if this is wrong, then all human beings must be saved from damnation whether they believe in Him or not. Therefore to think of God as the God who looks with everyone with absolute (or ideal) equity will be false.
Conclusions:
The logical problem of evil has been a topic of debate for centuries. And the problem of evil is the greatest obstacle to belief in the existence of God. I wouldn’t think of God’s attributes logically as I have only limited knowledge on the being of God. But rather understand God of the person He is from His dealings with mankind. Logically there can be no evil in good. One may have hundreds reasons to support why God acted violently or allow evil in the world. But logically it is impossible for God to do that. Therefore it is necessary to assume that God is not exactly what we think of what He is.
Christians for ages has believed and has been defending the attributes of God when we really don’t have definite answers on the being of God. Many are human assumptions based on some personal experience of a particular person in a particular time and situation, some of which may be plausible beyond reasonable doubt but some are not.
Looking into the Jewish history and the salvation story manifested in Jesus Christ, we can safely conclude that God does things deem fit according to his will, pleasure, purpose and plan. And one who laid a salvafic plan for mankind on the cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself (Ephesians 1:9), And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28), In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will (Ephesians 1:11), that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly (Ephesians 3:3).
Now the option rest here, it is up to the person to believe in God or not. But we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. But damnation and hell for those who don’t. Here, the burden of the logical arguments on the problem of evil is lifted.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As God is good he must deal justly in accordance with sin and evil. The penalty for sin is death. God has proven Himself to be gracious and long suffering in His dealings with humanity, otherwise we would not exist at all. God could have easily not saved anyone through the flood. This is brought forward in redemption through Christ.
 

TopherNelson

New Member
Jan 11, 2015
325
17
0
24
Hi,
God is holy, God is good.
“Why there is suffering, violence and evil in the world if there is God who is all present, all powerful and all loving?” God created us in his image, he love us all equally. It is our sins that caused us to be in this dreadful place. Adam and Eve were tempted by the serpent to eat the forbidden fruit, God "kicked" them out from the Garden of Eden, which is a paradise not knowing of suffering, violence and evil, and that is without pests or diseases. But all along in the beginning God had a plan, a plan to save us. God had sent his Son as a sacrifice to wash away our sins.

Romas 5:8 "But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

It is true that everyone had a choice to accept or not to accept God.

Chris
 

jam

New Member
Apr 1, 2013
6
1
1
Nagaland, India
Thanks for the responses.
I apologized for the grammatical mistake. I would like to edit and format for better reading. Can I do that?
 

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your OP argument reminds me of the philosophy of a Buddhist friend of mine. He has the belief that all violence is evil, and that belief places the acts of judicial justice or "the judgment of God" into the realm of evil. However, a more biblical view would have to consider justice to be a good thing and how can there be justice without judgment against evil works and evil hearts. The word "good" has its derivation in the word "god" and for good reason. God who created us for His purposes is the definition of good. We don't define Him, He defines us and according to His own character, which is the definition of good. The scripture tells us that God created the sword, an implement of destruction, for the purposes of rewarding good and punishing evil. Throughout history God has used the aggressive and violent bent of men in the waging of war to bring judgment upon those who reject Him and in doing so, reject what is good. There is a way that seems right to a man and that way leads to death. The rebellion of man against God, lead by His adversary, is driven by man's judgment of his creator. Men rebel against God when they perceive Him as not good, when they judge His actions according to their own limited understanding. You have put yourself into a very dangerous place, but a common one. I would recommend that you read through the book of Job (perhaps 7 times as a good complete number). Chapter 42 is the most significant.
If you embrace scripture, then you should see that we are no more than animated mud, yet He has set His love upon us as a good creator in spite of the fact that we are corrupted by sin, fallen, and even at our best entirely deceived about ourselves. Among men, there is no one good, no not one. We all deserve destruction and judgment, but God has made a way, in the person of His Son, through whom we find pardon and more, grace to be renewed in His image and likeness.
When I was young and read the scripture without the benefit of spiritual understanding, I thought that it was awful of God to place the Canaanites under the ban and to command the Israelites to utterly destroy them. Now I understand that in allowing them to survive in the land, the Israelites became drawn into the abominable practices of the Canaanites, even offering up their own children in human sacrifice. No man is equipped to understand the works of God from the beginning to the end, but He's given us the bible so that we can get a realistic glimpse of ourselves, of what we are without Him, and what we can be with Him.
I've heard it said that a good shepherd will sometimes break the leg of a lamb that has a tendency to stray, and carry it upon his shoulders until the lamb has healed. In the process the lamb comes to know the shepherd and the care that he provides it. So was breaking its leg an evil thing or a good thing? How can a man, whose life is just a vapor, judge the acts of the Eternal One?
 

jam

New Member
Apr 1, 2013
6
1
1
Nagaland, India
My burden is on the burden of the logical problem of Evil from theistic position. I think Christian theology had overstated on the attributes of God when we don't have a definite one.

I wouldn't think of God’s attributes rationally as I have only limited knowledge on the being of God. But rather understand God of the person He is from His dealings with mankind. Looking into the Jewish history and the salvation story manifested in Jesus Christ, we can safely conclude that God does things deem fit according to his will, pleasure, purpose and plan. The theology of “all benevolent God” need to be redress. Logically, the argument formulated by atheist on the logical problem of evil is valid. But we know God exist. Therefore, it is necessary to assume that God is not exactly what we think of what He is. Christians for ages has believed and has been defending the attributes of God when we really don’t have definite answers on the being of God. But we know now, that God is someone, out of his sovereign authority, who does things according to his will, pleasure, purpose and plan. Now there are two options for every person: To believe in God or not to believe. And not forgetting that God works for the good of those who love him. But damnation and hell for those who don’t. Here, the burden of the logical arguments on the problem of evil is lifted from theistic position. For it gave no room for argument for the God who does things according to his will, pleasure, purpose and plan.

Thank you for your responses. I realized that I had overstated some on my original Post. This is just an humble attempt to liberate the burden on the logical problem of evil from theistic position. I am updating my post on my blog as I cannot edit here.
 

Angelina

Prayer Warrior
Staff member
Admin
Feb 4, 2011
37,104
15,050
113
New Zealand
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Marc P Gangmei said:
My burden is on the burden of the logical problem of Evil from theistic position. I think Christian theology had overstated on the attributes of God when we don't have a definite one.

I wouldn't think of God’s attributes rationally as I have only limited knowledge on the being of God. But rather understand God of the person He is from His dealings with mankind. Looking into the Jewish history and the salvation story manifested in Jesus Christ, we can safely conclude that God does things deem fit according to his will, pleasure, purpose and plan. The theology of “all benevolent God” need to be redress. Logically, the argument formulated by atheist on the logical problem of evil is valid. But we know God exist. Therefore, it is necessary to assume that God is not exactly what we think of what He is. Christians for ages has believed and has been defending the attributes of God when we really don’t have definite answers on the being of God. But we know now, that God is someone, out of his sovereign authority, who does things according to his will, pleasure, purpose and plan. Now there are two options for every person: To believe in God or not to believe. And not forgetting that God works for the good of those who love him. But damnation and hell for those who don’t. Here, the burden of the logical arguments on the problem of evil is lifted from theistic position. For it gave no room for argument for the God who does things according to his will, pleasure, purpose and plan.

Thank you for your responses. I realized that I had overstated some on my original Post. This is just an humble attempt to liberate the burden on the logical problem of evil from theistic position. I am updating my post on my blog as I cannot edit here.
I truly do not know what you are getting at here... :huh: are you stating that God is not what we believe him to be because he makes the rules?
Well he does make the rules but I do not believe that his rules are for one group of people over another. For instance, I do not believe that he is any different in his dealings with Israel than he is with us Christian believers today. The new covenant has allowed an eternal high priest to intercede on our behalf. Something that was not present in O/T times but God [Father] dealing directly to his people through various leaders...was still gracious to Israel by passing over their sinful ways through an assortment of rituals relating to the law ~ just as he is gracious to us through our faith in Christ.

Evil entered the world through disobedience. Firstly through angels, then through mankind, originating in the garden of Eden. God's plan was to restore that relationship through his promised Son. That's basically it in a nutshell.

It is obvious [to me anyway] that you are not a believer and I would be interested to know what your beliefs are... :unsure:

Bless ya!
 

michaelvpardo

Well-Known Member
Feb 26, 2011
4,204
1,734
113
67
East Stroudsburg, PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.'' Matthew 19:17

Jesus said it and that's good enough for me.

Like all scripture, you either believe it or you don't.
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Rethinking theology is always a good idea. God is so infinitely unknowable we really can only understand Him on what He has chosen to reveal through His word, and through His Son. We must always be open to new revelation, a clearer understanding of what God has revealed, but never should we entertain the notion that God is somehow different to what He has revealed thus far. God is love. 1 John 4:16. This is unequivocal. There can be no debate on this. It is clear, concise, and all-encompassing. This does not mean that God loves sometimes, nor does it mean that He loves some and not others. Do not make the fatal mistake of thinking hate means the opposite to love, no,no. God can hate and love at the same time. He can favor one in order to accomplish His purposes and walk away from another...this does not mean a lack of love. The opposite to love is not hate, it is selfishness. And God is not, nor has He ever been, selfish. This fact however was what the serpent created doubt over in the garden.
"Yea, hath God said ye shalt not eat of every tree in the garden?" Gen.3:1 Here the serpent is continuing the slanders and lies he began in heaven, which resulted ultimately to his being cast out. He is the master deceiver, and Eve, instead of simply obeying, leaps to God's defense. The serpents question was in essence an accusation. Not of Eve, but of God. It could be paraphrased as " Hey Eve! How come you can't eat of every tree in the garden? How come God is being so restrictive? You are free lady, you can do what you like, Nuh, God is being unreasonable, unfair."
So Eve leaps to God's defense and says, 'We can eat of he fruit of the trees of the garden, but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden , God has said "ye shall not eat of it neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." The serpent responds, "ye shall not surely die!". In other words," God is a liar. Not only is He restrictive and unfair, but He's lying about the consequences as well. And here's why. God knows that when you eat, your eyes shall be opened and ye shall be gods like Him, knowing good and evil. Therefore Eve you will be able to make up your own mind on what is good and evil, you don't need God to decide for you, you can be your own boss. God is being selfish. He doesn't want to share His wisdom or His kingdom with anyone. He wants to keep you down and hold back stuff that is for your good."
Thus what the serpent was insinuating was that God doesn't love Eve, because He is selfish, a liar, and dictatorial and restrictive. But not just God, but also His laws, and by extension, His government. His kingdom. Sound familiar? Is there not, even in the church, an ongoing debate over whether God's laws need to be obeyed? Is this misrepresentation of God's character what atheists have been believing all along and using as their reason for unbelief? Can't blame them really, I don't believe in that God either. As a result of the serpents lies and accusations, was a corrupted mindset that we have all inherited. The human race, without exception (apart from Jesus), has had a major problem with trusting God, His word, and His intentions for mankind. This has resulted in man attempting to do what he doesn't trust God with. Man believes he can make up his own mind apart from God's laws on what is good and evil, and the result is sin. Which has led to all the evil, violence, corruption, and unbelief that we witness all around us today. The question then arises, and which has been asked for centuries, why does God not intervene and simply stamp out the problem?
It is God's character that has been brought into question. Satan has successfully planted a mindset of doubt and suspicion in the minds of men, which has compounded exponentially over the millennia since. What Satan the serpent began was an idea. This idea took hold, was believed, and has been a part of our natural genetic make-up since. What would have happened had God simply trodden on the serpent in the garden? Snuffed him out permanently and shut him up forever? This would not have killed the idea. In fact, such a course of action would have cemented the idea in the minds of not only man, but of angels as well. Satan's accusations against God began well before Eden. He managed to lure a third of the angels of heaven into believing his sophistries and slander...the rest would have changed sides smartly had God killed satan ...He would have proved satan right...that He was selfish, dictatorial, holding back what was good from His creation, unreasonable, unfair, unjust. Most assuredly, not a God of love. Not a God worthy of obedience, but a God to be feared! Any angel (or man for that matter) who would subsequently choose to serve God at all, would not have done so out of love or respect, but out of fear! This idea that has been so successfully planted could only be destroyed by another idea!! A better idea!
God promised this after Adam followed Eve into sin. God promised a Savior. And here began the gospel. The implantation of a different idea however would take time. A long time. And there was only one means to conquer the lies....love. Constant, self-sacrificing, merciful, gracious, love. This love was exemplified and demonstrated in the life of Christ. Christ disproved Satan's lies. Christ showed that obedience to God is for our benefit, not detrimental. Christ showed that God could be trusted. Even unto death. Calvary permanently and irrevocably established two things. One, that Satan's ways of self- determination result only in murder and bloodshed, pain and suffering, and two, that God is indeed a God of infinite, self-sacrificing love, gracious and merciful, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth. Exodus 34:6.

Conclusion. God cannot be blamed for any of the evil that has been unloaded upon mankind. Because He is love, one can be certain that He suffers along with His creation, and longs to bring the controversy over His character to an end. Evil must be permitted to continue so long as there continues to be people who believe the lies of the serpent above the word of God. One day, a day which I believe is not long coming, all he world will finally agree that satan's ways were wrong, that God's laws are right and just, and that obedience is the only way to eternal happiness as opposed to self-determination and rebellion against the government of God.This does not mean that all will be saved, but rather that even the lost will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father. How bad will this earth get in the meantime? What will it take to finally prove the ways of the world are satanic and doomed to failure? I believe the angels holding back the four winds of strife are loosening their grip. Even in the church where the tares and the wheat grow together, worldliness and compromise, unbelief and a lack of faith in God's promises, are manifesting themselves in a myriad of ways, whereas true followers of Christ are being brought to a place of humble obedience to His laws and a recognition of His Lordship and His worthiness as King. The two sides in the controversy are both ripening for harvest. The evil is getting more evil, the righteous are being brought more and more into the likeness of Christ.

The time is approaching when there shall no longer be any more atheists on earth. Too late however too many will, out of sheer necessity, finally confess that God is truly a God of love, and His ways true and just. Let us not wait till the end before surrendering to Him. Let us not debate or re-think what God has so clearly demonstrated through Jesus. He is a God of love. Trust Him.
 

rockytopva

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Dec 31, 2010
5,178
2,385
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
"Then God, if he be good, is not the author of all things, as the many assert, but he is the cause of a few things only, and not of most things that occur to men. For few are the goods of human life, and many are the evils, and the good is to be attributed to God alone; of the evils the causes are to be sought elsewhere, and not in him." - Plato's Republic
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dan57

Axehead

New Member
May 9, 2012
2,222
205
0
Rocky,

I think you may enjoy this read.

Chicken Bones of Christian Thought

Here is a "lead in".

"Those of you who know me, and have listened to my teaching for a number of years now, or tried to read my writings, are quite aware that I am not really a Chicken Soup kind of fellow. I am not one who tells a lot of inspirational stories; nor do I use many uplifting illustrations. I am not a storyartist – I am a thought mechanic.

So, instead of Chicken Soup for the Soul, I have chosen to consider “The Chicken Bones of Christian Thought.” I will advise you at the outset that these chicken bones are hard to swallow. They do not “go down easy,” but rather often get stuck in people’s throats. They cause people to choke. They are not encouragingly entertaining, but are often persistently perplexing. Instead of inspirational comfort, they often produce increasingly agitating consternation. Instead of being heart-warming, they tend to be mindnumbing. Instead of being lighthearted fluff, they tend to be heavy theological stuff! So, this entire introduction about Chicken Soup for the Soul was just to provide a contrastual dissimilarity to the series of thoughts that I have chosen to share – which, as mentioned, I have entitled, “The Chicken Bones of Christian Thought.

"In the theological progression of Christian thought there are certain junctures that are logical sticking points where human reason gets stuck in the nonsequiturs, the paradoxes, the dialectic tensions, the conundrums and the contradictions. Through the prophet Isaiah, God informed us, “His thoughts are not our thoughts, nor are our ways His ways” (Isa. 55:8,9). His ways are “unfathomable” – “past finding out” (Rom. 11:33). And in our human attempts to figure out and explain God’s unfathomable ways our thought processes get bound up in the quandaries of incongruities and inscrutabilities."


All the best,
Axehead
 

Guestman

Active Member
Nov 11, 2009
618
72
28
70
Texas
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Marc P Gangmei said:
I would like to share my recent study I posted on my [link removed]


“God is so good, God is so good, God is so good, is so good to me.”
This is the song we all sang in our Sunday school days and even today. But is God good to all? I am bringing in the question of the “All Benevolent God.” Let us also keep in mind throughout this reading that God is also omnipresent and omnipotent. What does it actually meant when we say that God is all benevolent? Is God someone who loves everyone and looks at everyone with absolute equity and with no partiality?
The centuries old question “Why there is suffering, violence and evil in the world if there is God who is all present, all powerful and all loving?” keeps hitting us even today. And none could give a fitting answer till date.



Not long after the Twin Trade Towers in New York City were destroyed by the militant Islamist organization of Al Qaeda on September 11, 2001, Billy Graham was asked why God permitted this. His response: "I don't know". When Pope Benedict XVI visited a former Nazi concentration camp in May 2006, he asked: "Where was God in those days ? Why was he silent ? How could he permit this endless slaughter, this triumph of evil ?" Neither Billy Graham nor Pope Benedict XVI nor the churches have an answer for why God allows suffering to continue.


But there is a very sound reason why our Maker, Jehovah God, has permitted suffering to go on over the course of human history. After the creation of Adam and Eve, Genesis 1:31 says that "God saw everything he had made, and look ! it was very good." Nowhere in the universe were there any flaws or sin (sin is from the Hebrew word chattath that means "to miss", or miss in reaching God's perfect standards). Everything was perfect !


Both Adam and Eve were cognizant of the command to not eat from "the tree of knowledge of good and bad".(Gen 2:17) Yet later, through the use of a serpent or snake, a spirit "son of God" that was eventually given the title of Satan the Devil (Satan means "resistor" while Devil means "slanderer") seduced Eve.(1 Tim 2:14)


He asked Eve while she was passing the "tree of knowledge of good and bad": "Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden ?"(Gen 3:1) Now suddenly, God's right to rule over his creation or sovereignty was called into question. Eve responded that it was fine to eat from every tree in the garden except from the "tree that is in middle of the garden", or otherwise both her and Adam would die.(Gen 3:2, 3)


Satan now tells Eve: "You certainly will not die".(Gen 3:4) Whoa ! Not only has Satan called God's sovereignty into question, but he now calls God a liar. Satan goes further and tells Eve that "God knows that in very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad."(Gen 3:5)


Now Satan is speaking for God, telling another lie. Eve accepts his bait, and takes fruit from the "tree of knowledge of good and bad", imagining that she can "be like God" if she eats of this fruit. Later, Adam also eats from the forbidden tree, a tree that Jehovah God had set aside as his own and of which established his right as Creator to set moral boundaries for us as his creation.(Gen 3:6)


Within just moments, what was a perfect, sinless universe now has been blotted with serious, death-dealing flaws. But who besides Adam, Eve, and Satan became involved ? Hundreds of million of angels. God could have immediately destroyed all three rebels on the spot. But Satan's question cast doubt on Jehovah's right to rule, as to whether his rulership is best for humans or could Satan do better.


All the angels were closely watching as to what God would do. But would destroying the three rebels have settled the issue of universal sovereignty ? No. The question of who would be a better ruler has now been raised and must be settled. So, in order for Satan to prove his case that man can be "like God, knowing good and bad" and rule over himself without God's needed direction, Jehovah turned the reins of the "world" over to Satan then and there.(John 14:30; Rev 12:9)


Some 2,300 years later, Satan again called into question God's rulership with regard to a man named Job, who had proven himself as "an upright man of integrity".(Job 1:8) Before all the other angels in a heavenly court appearance, Satan charged Jehovah with bribing Job for his loyalty, a charge which became an issue of universal importance. Then on another heavenly court appearance, Satan said that "a man will give everything that he has for his life" (Job 2:4), claiming that Job only serves Jehovah out of selfishness. This latter charge now put all of mankind on the "hot seat" as to whether or not they individually would prove to be a person of integrity. Only time, lots of time, would settle this issue.


Hence, for the past 6,000 years of man's existence, man has been under the dominating influence of Satan. And what record has Satan compiled ? Nothing but misery and suffering. Satan's record of rulership, has been nothing short of a total disaster.


Thus, it is not Jehovah God that is ruling over mankind, but Satan and in which the issue of universal sovereignty will soon be settled at Armageddon. At that time, Satan's rulership over the "world" of mankind will end, proving that his authority over the "world" has been a dismal failure and that God's rulership is the best.


So, until Armageddon or "the war of the great day of God the Almighty"(Rev 16:14, 16), Satan's reign continues and great "woes" will happen.(Rev 12:12) But what follows will be a "thousand years" of peace, whereby the earth will be transformed into a paradise for "meek" ones to enjoy forever. (Ps 37:11, 29: Rev 20:4-6)


Hence, as the Psalmist says: "Praise Jah ! Give thanks to Jehovah, for he is good; His loyal love endures forever."(Ps 106:1)
 

logabe

Active Member
Aug 28, 2008
880
47
28
66
Marc P Gangmei said:
My burden is on the burden of the logical problem of Evil from theistic position. I think Christian theology had overstated on the attributes of God when we don't have a definite one.

I wouldn't think of God’s attributes rationally as I have only limited knowledge on the being of God. But rather understand God of the person He is from His dealings with mankind. Looking into the Jewish history and the salvation story manifested in Jesus Christ, we can safely conclude that God does things deem fit according to his will, pleasure, purpose and plan. The theology of “all benevolent God” need to be redress. Logically, the argument formulated by atheist on the logical problem of evil is valid. But we know God exist. Therefore, it is necessary to assume that God is not exactly what we think of what He is. Christians for ages has believed and has been defending the attributes of God when we really don’t have definite answers on the being of God. But we know now, that God is someone, out of his sovereign authority, who does things according to his will, pleasure, purpose and plan. Now there are two options for every person: To believe in God or not to believe. And not forgetting that God works for the good of those who love him. But damnation and hell for those who don’t. Here, the burden of the logical arguments on the problem of evil is lifted from theistic position. For it gave no room for argument for the God who does things according to his will, pleasure, purpose and plan.

Thank you for your responses. I realized that I had overstated some on my original Post. This is just an humble attempt to liberate the burden on the logical problem of evil from theistic position. I am updating my post on my blog as I cannot edit here.
God made the Serpent and placed him in the garden. He done that without sinning.

Can you forgive God?

God is the only one that can turn evil into good. In other words, He uses evil to bring
about His purpose and plan.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
 
B

brakelite

Guest
Axehead said:
Glad you enjoyed it, brakelite. It's very thought provoking, isn't it?
Yes indeed. I downloaded it so I could read it again at my leisure. My first read was in one afternoon. Some very deep issues raised which I agree with the author would cause some 'gagging' among many Christian leaders today....there would be very few among todays evangelical fraternity that I could imagine would find anything in that presentation that would be in harmony with their theology.
 

LightMessenger

New Member
Apr 9, 2015
110
3
0
From the moment we are born we come into this world filled with challenges. Some challenges will be extreme while others not so much. But we must all undergo certain tests in order to grow spiritually. If there would never be hard choices to make in life and difficult things that we must undergo and even painful we would never learn our lessons which is the main reason we are here incarnate.

God allows for things like wars, pestilence, etc. so that people can hopefully come to the realization that their way always has faults and that learning to love God through Jesus Christ and to act in a benevolent manner should always be the goal. But in order to achieve that goal and truly learn from it one must suffer from painful situations. God is ever merciful and good and most loving. He does know that people, themselves, will often create situations for themselves that require the teaching of consequences for taking those actions. He thus allows for that for if He didn't how would they ever learn right from wrong.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
8,511
3,840
113
68
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Interesting topic, thanks.
The OP (opening post) is an unreadable wall of words. So, I'll break it up into manageable chunks.

I tried to reply to your whole OP, but was met with this...

Oops! We ran into some problems.
Please enter a message with no more than 10000 characters.

One may find different views and examples to support their own stand but the real necessity is to know whether God is really what we have been thinking of. Many Christian think of Jesus as a kind generous man who willingly suffered at the hand of many men. This nice “Lamb of God” concept is not totally wrong but not all right either. Focus on the reaction and behaviour of Jesus when the temple was misused by the people for business. He did what a “lowly white good lamb” probably wouldn’t be doing. From the perspective of the Pharisees of His time, he was a hostile man, a proud man, a socio-religious rebel. This view cannot be ignored because that was one of the root reason leading to His crucifixion. Same as this, Christians are missing the dot here when it come to the attribute of God.
Well... there is a time to take action against wrong-doing. Jesus called it "a den of thieves".
Again, it is stated in the Bible that God is a jealous God. When someone gives to another something that rightly belongs to Him (Exodus 20:4-5) which is in regards to people worshipping idols; this type of jealousy is not wrong. Perhaps a practical example will help us understand the difference. If a man sees another man flirting with his wife, he is right to be jealous, for only he has the right to flirt with his wife. If God is a jealous God, then the consequences in the judgment will not be the same. There can be no absolute equity between believers and non-believers. Suppose, if this is wrong, then all human beings must be saved from damnation whether they believe in Him or not. Therefore to think of God as the God who looks with everyone with absolute (or ideal) equity will be false.
Yes, I suppose there is a positive and negative side to jealousy, based on motives.
Conclusions:
The logical problem of evil has been a topic of debate for centuries. And the problem of evil is the greatest obstacle to belief in the existence of God. I wouldn’t think of God’s attributes logically as I have only limited knowledge on the being of God. But rather understand God of the person He is from His dealings with mankind. Logically there can be no evil in good. One may have hundreds reasons to support why God acted violently or allow evil in the world. But logically it is impossible for God to do that. Therefore it is necessary to assume that God is not exactly what we think of what He is.
Valid questions. IMHO
Christians for ages has believed and has been defending the attributes of God when we really don’t have definite answers on the being of God. Many are human assumptions based on some personal experience of a particular person in a particular time and situation, some of which may be plausible beyond reasonable doubt but some are not.
Yes, we have limited knowledge and understanding of the divine.
Looking into the Jewish history and the salvation story manifested in Jesus Christ, we can safely conclude that God does things deem fit according to his will, pleasure, purpose and plan. And one who laid a salvafic plan for mankind on the cross and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself (Ephesians 1:9), And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28), In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will (Ephesians 1:11), that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly (Ephesians 3:3).
But, don't you see that your own questions challenge these conclusions?
If we were chosen (the Elect) and predestined, then so were the non-Elect predestined for what, destruction?
Now the option rest here, it is up to the person to believe in God or not. But we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. But damnation and hell for those who don’t. Here, the burden of the logical arguments on the problem of evil is lifted.
The burden of the logical arguments on the problem of evil are lifted? How?
You wrote a virtual mountain of text (which I read) to disprove this.