Interpretation based upon Systematic Theology

[RedFan]

There is no indication that the Holy Spirit dictated the words that are written. That is not what it means tthat God's word is the inspired work of the apostles and prophets.

A very important point!

Over a century ago William James, in The Varieties of Religious Experience, distinguished between “existential judgments” and “spiritual judgments” about the Bible; the former being concerned with questions of historical fact, the latter with questions of present value:

"Every religious phenomenon has its history and its derivation from natural antecedents. What is nowadays called the higher criticism of the Bible is only a study of the Bible from this existential point of view, neglected too much by the earlier church. Under just what biographic conditions did the sacred writers bring forth their various contributions to the holy volume? And what had they exactly in their several individual minds, when they delivered their utterances? These are manifestly questions of historical fact, and one does not see how the answer to them can decide offhand the still further question: of what use should such a volume, with its manner of coming into existence so defined, be to us as a guide to life and a revelation? To answer this other question we must have already in our mind some sort of a general theory as to what the peculiarities in a thing should be which give it value for purposes of revelation; and this theory itself would be what I just called a spiritual judgment. Combining it with our existential judgment, we might indeed deduce another spiritual judgment as to the Bible's worth. Thus if our theory of revelation-value were to affirm that any book, to possess it, must have been composed automatically or not by the free caprice of the writer, or that it must exhibit no scientific and historic errors and express no local or personal passions, the Bible would probably fare ill at our hands. But if, on the other hand, our theory should allow that a book may well be a revelation in spite of errors and passions and deliberate human composition, if only it be a true record of the inner experiences of great-souled persons wrestling with the crises of their faith, then the verdict would be much more favorable. You see that the existential facts by themselves are insufficient for determining the value; and the best adepts of the higher criticism accordingly never confound the existential with the spiritual problem."

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

There is no indication that the Holy Spirit dictated the words that are written.

That's what the devil keeps telling people to help them discard what the Lord has to say in His Word

2 Peter 1:16-21
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Revelation 19:10
the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Hebrews 1:1,2
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

2 Timothy 3:15-17
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Peter 1:3,4
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

Romans 8:14
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

 

[JBO]

That's what the devil keeps telling people to help them discard what the Lord has to say in His Word View attachment 41017

2 Peter 1:16-21
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Revelation 19:10
the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Hebrews 1:1,2
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

2 Timothy 3:15-17
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Peter 1:3,4
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

Romans 8:14
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

And yet, nothing there says that the Holy Spirit dictated the words that are written. Inspiration and dictation are not the same thing at all.

 

[RedFan]

That's what the devil keeps telling people to help them discard what the Lord has to say in His Word

Big Boy, I notice you want to prove Scripture by Scripture. In support of your statement, all you do is quote NT passages. You do realize the circularity of this kind of bootstrapping argument, don't you?

For instance, you quote from 2 Timothy 3:16 that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." And of course you interpret this to mean "All scripture -- including gospels and epistles that have yet to be penned and including all of my own letters to various churches, but only to the extent declared canonical by consensus three centuries from now (the rest should be deemed irrelevant) -- is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." I have two things to say about this. First, self-serving declarations cannot prove their own truth. Second, the chances that Paul meant to include what we now know as NT writings in his use of graphē in this verse are between slim and none, and far closer to none.

Do I think the Bible is inspired? Yes. Do you and I mean the same thing by this? I think not.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

And yet, nothing there says that the Holy Spirit dictated the words that are written. Inspiration and dictation are not the same thing at all.

The devil is very pleased to hear that you believe this...

 

[JBO]

The devil is very pleased to hear that you believe this...
View attachment 41031

I guess that means that you have a close personal relationship with him?

 

[Writer]

Brother, in your writing, I hear your belief or belief's. I also appreciate your detail of how you formulated those beliefs, if you will. But I must tell you something as one reaching out to your quest for truth. Truth is not a thing, and nor is it a place. Truth is a law. It is not a commanded law, it is a law like a universal law, like gravity or EMF. We can not see what the "Law" of Truth looks like anymore than the law of Gravity, but freedom is Truth's invisible atribute,"...and the truth will set you free".

God built into us the ability to choose. Choice can get us in trouble because we don't always see the consequence of making a wrong choice before we make it, and when we are impuned, even though we stepped into it completely clueless of the consequence or that it was completely wrong, never the less, we are at fault no matter what, because we made that choice and now we own it. Have you ever heard an old saying that says "what you don't know can kill you"? Well it's true! But now having said that, that sad truth is completely avoidable.
What risk do we face everyday when we get in our vehicle of destruction and drive ourselves to and fro? Do we wake up every morning telling ourselves that we were predestined to kill someone today and if we go to hell, well then it's Gods fault and not a darn thing we can do about it or could have done about it except to accept our nashing of teeth in the lake of fire for eternity. Is that the "REAL" truth. Really?

Sin is in mankind, in everyone of us. Sin, not any of it, is acceptable to God and sin has made us to fall short of entering the kingdom of heaven. It was unavoidable, yet at birth we stepped into it predestined to perish and remain dust in the earth forever. But because God blamed Himself, if you will, for man's fall, and realizing that no man, not one, could save himself, not even with the blood of animals, so God chose to make Himself a propitiation for our sin and pay the penalty for us. He gave His only begotten son to become flesh, be the first born of Mary, to be unblemished (after being tested by temptation), and be considered by God to be the first born, unblemished son of man to pay the price for man no longer to make animal sacrifices necessary.

Today, according to the Gospel of Jesus and of the Kingdom, "EVERYONE" has been forgiven, and hell is completely and thoroughly avoidable by choice. God suffered and died, not to predestine us to everlasting damnation, otherwise why give us a choice? God gave us a choice because that choice means we as individuals now can determine to live in the presence of the almighty, or choose to live in the absence of the almighty. In otherwords; Today hell is completely avoidable. It is no longer God's fault. God also gets to choose those who welcome His presence in their life, and God can also choose to reject those who determine for themselves to live in His Absence, and for them, He built a special dwelling called the Lake of fire.

 

[RedFan]

Sin is in mankind, in everyone of us. Sin, not any of it, is acceptable to God and sin has made us to fall short of entering the kingdom of heaven. It was unavoidable, yet at birth we stepped into it predestined to perish and remain dust in the earth forever. But because God blamed Himself, if you will, for man's fall, and realizing that no man, not one, could save himself, not even with the blood of animals, so God chose to make Himself a propitiation for our sin and pay the penalty for us. He gave His only begotten son to become flesh, be the first born of Mary, to be unblemished (after being tested by temptation), and be considered by God to be the first born, unblemished son of man to pay the price for man no longer to make animal sacrifices necessary.

Wow, I've never heard it put quite this way! "God blamed himself, if you will, for man's fall." If that is the case, why couldn't God have "forgiven" Himself, along with us, just by an act of His will, without the need for Calvary?

 

[Writer]

Wow, I've never heard it put quite this way! "God blamed himself, if you will, for man's fall." If that is the case, why couldn't God have "forgiven" Himself, along with us, just by an act of His will, without the need for Calvary?

Because to overcome the "CURSE" of death from God's word put on Adam, a second Adam, a Messiah (God's word), being perfect would need to become flesh and be an earth dweller, a man, a take mans place as a sacrifice, since man was no longer worthy of Gods kingdom because of sin man became an unclean sacrifice and not acceptable before God. Also, God didn't sin in the Garden, nor did God sin for putting the curse on Adam and removing Him from the Garden, anymore than when God removes someone from among the living. God had nothing to forgive Himself for.

 

[RedFan]

Because to overcome the "CURSE" of death from God's word put on Adam, a second Adam, a Messiah (God's word), being perfect would need to become flesh and be an earth dweller, a man, a take mans place as a sacrifice, since man was no longer worthy of Gods kingdom because of sin man became an unclean sacrifice and not acceptable before God. Also, God didn't sin in the Garden, nor did God sin for putting the curse on Adam and removing Him from the Garden, anymore than when God removes someone from among the living. God had nothing to forgive Himself for.

So why would He "blame Himself" then? For giving man the free will that enables man to sin?

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

I guess that means that you have a close personal relationship with him?

Every time the devil tries to invade my life... I take the sword of the Spirit (speaking God's Word) and I stab him with it hurting him again and again until he leaves.

James 4:7
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Ephesians 6:13-18
Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

The devil knows I don't back down and when he comes at me, his demons get badly injured!

 

[Writer]

So why would He "blame Himself" then? For giving man the free will that enables man to sin?

God did not create Himself again. In other words, God created man innocent, but man was not created holy and devine. The bible states that man was created below the Angels. So if God is a "10" then angels are 9's, and they fell, and man an 8 and he fell. Who is responsible for that?

Man was to become holy and devine through the tree of life, and ONE with God. When God removed them from the garden, he also removed the opportunity for them to live forever, until the coming of the Mesiah.

 

[RedFan]

God did not create Himself again. In other words, God created man innocent, but man was not created holy and devine. The bible states that man was created below the Angels. So if God is a "10" then angels are 9's, and they fell, and man an 8 and he fell. Who is responsible for that?

Man was to become holy and devine through the tree of life, and ONE with God. When God removed them from the garden, he also removed the opportunity for them to live forever, until the coming of the Mesiah.

That's all well and good. I am only probing the sense in which you say God "blamed Himself." Can you just address that, please?

 

[Writer]

That's all well and good. I am only probing the sense in which you say God "blamed Himself." Can you just address that, please?

I did, but I'll say it another way. God TOOK IT UPON HIMSELF to become man and take on the sins of the WHOLE world and to DIE, yes die and defeat death and rise to NEW LIFE, in a NEW BODY, and sit at the right hand of the Father and with Joy and love he says to man, "come, let us go to the other side" and "where I am you shall be also". I have seen your plight and understand you cannot save yourselves from my curse, and I love you so much, I'm willing to remove that curse from you, SINCE I PUT IT ON YOU, and give you by pardoning your sin instead, and I will write it not only on your hearts, but in a decree to the whole world, the Gospel, the Good news, that you have been pardoned and all you need to do is RECEIVE IT, and you will be saved.

 

[RedFan]

I did, but I'll say it another way. God TOOK IT UPON HIMSELF to become man and take on the sins of the WHOLE world and to DIE, yes die and defeat death and rise to NEW LIFE, in a NEW BODY, and sit at the right hand of the Father and with Joy and love he says to man, "come, let us go to the other side" and "where I am you shall be also". I have seen your plight and understand you cannot save yourselves from my curse, and I love you so much, I'm willing to remove that curse from you, SINCE I PUT IT ON YOU, and give you by pardoning your sin instead, and I will write it not only on your hearts, but in a decree to the whole world, the Gospel, the Good news, that you have been pardoned and all you need to do is RECEIVE IT, and you will be saved.

Got it now, thanks.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Man was to become holy and devine through the tree of life, and ONE with God. When God removed them from the garden, he also removed the opportunity for them to live forever, until the coming of the Mesiah.

If they had eaten of the of life in their fallen state of sin... they would have lived forever in that state of sin.

God obviously could not allow that happen so He had to boot them out of the garden.

God "blamed Himself."

God did not blame Himself... but, He obviously assumed responsibility to fix the mess mankind made by bringing forth His plan of salvation which ultimately sets the stage with a precedent, a standard so that in the ages to come anyone... whether man or angel... that tries to rebel like lucifer did, will find themselves in hell immediately.

After the 1000 years is over and the Father moves Heaven to earth to forever be with man... it will not be possible for any further rebellion to take place due to the precedent set thru Jesus defeating sin at the Cross and being raised for the justification of those that continually abide IN Christ.