I think you’re pointing to what could happen in the future to someone who alters the book of Revelation, but what are your thoughts on someone who has already alter the book and is now dead? Did they have the plagues written in Revelation added to them while they were alive? Did they follow the beast while they were alive or do you think it’s only possible to follow the beast at some future point?
God shall add unto him the plagues
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No, I altered your quote and told you that I changed it to make a point. That point was that anyone can simply say Gods going to make something happen because that’s what the Bible says, which is essentially what you said, or at least how I understood what you said.
Using this type of logic I can argue that a literal seven headed beast is going to come out of the sea, when, where, or how I don’t know but there’s no question it will happen because the Bible says it will.
If this is not how you are approaching the problem of how the plagues can be literally added to someone who altered the book but is now dead, then can you explain it in a different way? I don’t always understand where people are coming from on these forums, it’s easier to see things when talking face to face with someone.
Right.
I think I said before that I look for where the Bible says something is symbolic, and what that symbol means. That applies to your example of the dragon, but it doesn not apply to the plagues.
Much love!
Ok, so if it doesn’t apply to the plagues then how is it that the person who altered the number 666 and turned it into 616, experiences the literal plagues? Did they experience them before they died or are they going to be resurrected first to literally experience them?
It's enough that He said it is so. I don't have any issues with believing His words are true.
Much love!
Ok, so I can say the person that changed 666 to 616 literally experienced the actual plagues in Revelation while he was alive, thus proving that Revelation 16 is fulfilled.
It’s enough that He said it is so. I don’t have any issues with believing His words are true.
One of us has to be wrong, yet we both believe His words are true. How can this be?
Right, it’s not what you said but we have both attempted to prove a point using flawed logic. Saying God wrote it in the Bible, therefore it’s going to happen exactly as I think it will, is flawed thinking that relies on humans not God.
This type of argument does nothing to support a view. Every view has to make some kind of sense, literal or spiritual.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Actually, I'm talking about people who side with the Beast now, though I know he has not yet arrived as a man. As a national system, or as an international system, I believe the Beast has been here since ancient Rome. So those who *today* opt to follow the spirit of this world, which is in revolution against God's word, will suffer the same fate as those who live during the time of the Beast and choose to follow him.
The plagues people today will suffer, who have rejected (completely) obeying God's word, will suffer the same *kind* of plagues that will be suffered by those who live in the time of the Beast. Whether in the time of Antichrist or today, those who choose the world will lose the world, which is what I believe the plagues represent--the complete loss of blessing on earth.
They will suffer death or cursing under judgment today, but they will also suffer the loss of a blessed earth after they die. That is, they will not be allowed to return to a paradisical earth, just as those who follow the Beast will suffer the loss of a paradisical earth in their day.
The plagues, therefore, represent for me the loss of a blessed earth and the people who suffer them will not be the "meek" who "inherit the earth." Instead, they will be the rebellious who have forfeited the earth, which is what these plagues represent.
As the Egyptians rebelled against God's word and suffered the loss of their lives in the Red Sea so those who rebel against God's word today, by assuming the same position as the wicked in the Revelation, will suffer the "2nd Death." In all cases, the earth is lost to the wicked, and this is, for me, what the plagues represent. Following the Beast is, for me, the choice to follow the Beast System, which is in operation today in the form of an Antichristian Spirit.
Ok, thanks for the explanation. Revelation 22:18 says it’s the plagues written in the book that are added, it doesn’t say a similar kind of plague.
Can we then say that the plagues themselves have no time restrictions? Kind of like a medical book saying everyone who cuts their finger will experience the pain written in this book.
Sure, so people have been worshipping on Sunday for well over a thousand years now, and millions have already died without being inflicted with the plagues. When will those dead Sunday worshippers experience the plagues?
Just remember, His ways are fully above our ways. We shouldn't expect to understand how God will do all that He has said. But I do expect He will do all that He has said.
For me, to read a passage, and then question, how in the world could that ever happen? And to follow up with, That doesn't make any sense to me, therefore, it must not be like it says, This is to me a recipe for error. If there is a textual reason to think that something is symbolic/metaphor/allegory/parable/idiom/type, and if there is something to tell us what that symbol, or type means, that's one thing.
But when we don't have that, when what we have are straightforward propositional statements, without qualifications, without modifiers, I don't consider it to be good interpretation to declare it's not so.
In this case, you are asserting that it's nonsensical that the plagues added to the one who adds to the book be the literally reading plagues of the trumpets and bowls. So therefore, these plagues themselves must not be the events described, such as the trees and grass burnt, or the sores on those with the mark, or the massive hailstones. These descriptions must be symbolic for other things, things that can be shared by those who add to the book. So that it can make sense.
Do I have this right? This is your thinking?
My response is that there are things we may not understand, that may not make sense to us, but that remain just as real and true as they seem when we read it. So in the case of these plagues, yes, they will happen as written. There will actually be fire from heaven, and locust-things coming out of the abyss. And in the case of those who add to the book of prophecy - the Revelation - God will add these plagues to them. If I believe the prophecy of Jesus returning, well, this is written in just the same way. Narrative, propositional, straightforward. And I understand that God is able to plague an individual in these same ways, that there is an experience that He's talking about, and such people are able to suffer in such ways.
To me the most likely parallel in Scripture is where Jesus said that those who knew better will be punished with many stripes. Maybe this additional suffering - darkness, gnawing your tongue in pain - in the terror and confusion of massive hail - in the bitterness of Wormwood - is described in the "many stripes". But in this I can only speculate, as this is not directly stated.
Much love!
Yes, that is correct.
It’s not only that it doesn’t make sense to me, it’s also that a literal interpretation of the plagues requires a resurrection of unbelievers prior to the plagues occurring in order for them to participate in the literal plagues.
I don’t see any verses that support a resurrection at that time, which would be a limited group comprising those who have added to the book. Or else the literal plagues have to occur more than once which again isn’t supported by other verses.
That could very well be, I wouldn’t argue against the stripes being plagues.
I will say this, it might be possible for the plagues to be literal if the Revelation 22 warning was only meant for those original seven churches in the first century. Just like Philemon 1:23 is not meant for anyone other than the actual person to whom it was written.
Philemon 1:23 There salute thee Epaphras, my fellowprisoner in Christ Jesus.
This is if a plague can only occur at one given time, I don't have any issues with God being able plague this plague on the world at this time, and on a person at that time. Again, I'm not trying to say I understand how that would happen. But I don't understand how any number of things can happen.
Where is everyone when heaven and earth flee away, and before the new creation? Not trying to change the subject, just to give an example.
That's an interesting idea.
I'm looking where it says "if ever any", which seems to be all inclusive, rather than limiting to the 7 churches. I've not thought about that before, I'll let it rattle around a bit.
Much love!
Ok, I think we may be getting closer in our thinking here.
I think it could be possible that the plagues occur through time to individuals that tamper with the scriptures. I don’t personally see any literal plagues happening so I go to the thought that the plagues are spiritual.
Well I have thought about that and had a discussion with a friend. Einstein’s theory of relativity says that time is relative. This theory has been proven, if a person were able to travel faster than the speed of light they would go back in time.
Ok, now for the speculation, heaven and earth fleeing away could be how John sees time slowing down or stopping. At the GWT the books are opened, which could contain the pages of time, meaning that when someone is judged for say something they did on January 13, 1932, when that page of the book is opened, God and the person being judged go back to that moment and review it as it happens. In other words our future self’s could be looking at us right now along with God.
Ok, that’s a lot of speculation and I don’t intend to argue in favor of it, it’s just what comes to my mind when I look at that passage.
Yea, I honestly have a hard time with the warning only applying to the seven churches but I think someone could make a decent case for that view. I’m not personally going to argue for that position though.That's an interesting idea.
I'm looking where it says "if ever any", which seems to be all inclusive, rather than limiting to the 7 churches. I've not thought about that before, I'll let it rattle around a bit.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
The plagues written in the book are not just the 7 last plagues. They are the afflictions promised to impact the rebellious world. Such plagues have been afflicting the rebellious since ancient Egypt. The book of Revelation describes plagues that affect the rebellious in the NT period, including the time when the reign of Antichrist is judged.
So yes, I believe what is described is a "kind" of plague, namely the kind that afflicts the rebel in the NT era. John clearly was addressing rebels who live throughout the NT period. Logically, that cannot refer to the 7 last plagues until that generation actually comes into existence.
That Beast System has existed since ancient Rome, well before the Antichrist himself comes into existence. Those who embrace pagan Rome or apostate Rome, as such, are those who deny the Scriptures describing her as the Great Harlot. They will suffer the plague described for those who are part of that system...
Rev 18.4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “‘Come out of her, my people,’ so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues.
Those who are rebels living prior to the last generation will certainly suffer their own kind of plagues. They try to deny the entire endtime scenario, replete with Christian righteousness and judgment for those who try to live independent of Christ.
They will try to add to or subtract from the word of God. So they will suffer plagues just like those described in the book of Revelation. We may say they are the "same plagues" in the sense of their being plagues designed to punish those who follow the Beast system.
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BlessedPeace
Well-Known Member
OK. That would still coincide with my remarks. The 7 literal churches in Asia Minor at the time,and the plagues, were in the past.
Ok, if I understand you then the last plagues in Revelation 16 are the absolute last time a plague happens, after that specific time period no plague can ever happen again.
In Revelation 16:12-13 the sixth bowl is poured out and the spirits of devils work miracles and they gather them together to battle. The miracles performed by the false prophet in Revelation 13:14 are said to deceive those who dwell on the earth.
After the millennium Satan deceives and gathers to battle. If the last plague occurred prior to the millennium then what qualifies as a plague?
<4127> plege a blow, stripe, wound; an affliction, plague
Wouldn’t Satans little season that takes place after the millennium be considered a plague?
It sounds like it could be fun to speculate with you on some things!
You could also make the case that it applied only to the messengers to the churches, as the letters were addressed individually to them. I wouldn't argue for that either, I think the "If ever any" makes it a general warning to all.
I understand, and I think I understand your reasons.
But is there anything in Scripture which would indicate what the Scriptural meaning of these plagues would be? The narratives given seem detailed and precise, at least to me.
Much love!
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