I personally haven’t but it would be interesting if someone does know if a document case.
God shall add unto him the plagues
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When you say "literal", do you mean "physical"? Angels are spirit beings who normally inhabit the celestial realm, but who are able to somehow become as men to interact in a physical manner within this terrerstrial realm.
So I'd have to add the questions, is this a literal, celestial angel, in the celestial realm, pouring out a celestial bowl, having a terrestrial effect? Or, if you mean fully physical, could this be an angel in the form of a man pouring out a bowl into the river? I think the first is more likely, I have no objection to the second.
Interesting! I've always imagined this as the river ceases to flow, leaving a dry riverbed.
And as we know large armies move better when there are not major natural barriers.
This will be a much different time than today, and all the more so if I'm understanding these prophecies correctly.
One possible scenario may be that the governments of the world as we know them now have fallen, and been replaced by 10 kings, who then give all rule to the beast, a world empire headed by a man, who will attempt to destroy God's chosen nation.
Again, by literal, physical?
Does a literal demon possess a physical man? Does that require the demon be physical? Am I tracking your thought here?
Interesting about them working miracles, I've not realized that was the one place, I'll need to look at that. (I love a good discussion!)
Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV
1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
There is a spirit called "the power of the air", that now works in the children of disobedience, and this spirit has a prince, a ruler, and that ruler has everyone living according to "the course of this world", and according to that ruler.
"The course of this world" is translated from ton aiona tou kosmou, or, "the age that proceeds from the present world system". As I've thought about this, "zeitgeist" seems to fit.
This spirit (singular) works in "the children" (plural). I don't know by what manner or means, only that this is so. But this speaks to me that I shouldn't seek another meaning to the passage considering spirit beings seem to have capabilities far beyond mine. Not to mention the single angel that killed 185,000 in a night.
Much love!
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As I understand it, the dragon is Satan, and the beast at times names the final world empire, and at times names the human emperor. The false prophet I see as another man who works alongside the beast, but I wouldn't be dogmatic about that.
Much love!
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Literal. How would a spiritual plague work? As a nightmare in our thoughts?
I just tried to look at everything literally. When it says the mouth of the false prophet I take it as a literal mouth. If we start to deviate from a literal interpretation then we have started to move that proverbial line between literal and non-literal.
Sticking to a literal interpretation we would have to conclude that the false prophet does have a literal mouth, regardless of it being physical or not.
Killing people is one thing but gathering people for a battle is another. Sticking to a literal interpretation a spirit would have to convince someone to join the battle or physical grab a person. We could speculate that the spirit might frighten people into going one direction or the other but again all this takes a large amount of effort. There are only three spirits that are trying to gather an entire world full of people to a literal place called Armageddon.
The three spirits only start to gather once they come out of the mouths. How long do you think it takes the three spirits to accomplish their mission? If the seven bowls last for seven years do you suppose it takes about one year?
Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Here is an example of how a spiritual plague works.
How can a person who has already died experience literal plagues?
There is a single spirit that works in all the children of disobedience, that is, the unregenerate. There are billions I would think, all over the world. Somehow this single spirit works in all of them.
How long does it take? I don't know.
Much love!
Right, that single spirit is the Adamic nature. In Mark 4:15 Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. Satan isn’t omnipresent so it can’t be Satan himself that does this, it’s our Adamic nature that gets attributed back to Satan from the fall of mankind.
I’ve been thinking about this, if someone in the millennium were to alter the book of Revelation and the seven last plagues can only happen during the kingdom of Antichrist, then those plagues, and really any of the other plagues in Revelation that pertain only to the kingdom of Antichrist, can’t be added to the person who alters the book during the millennium.
Can you point out which plagues, written in Revelation, that a person would experience during the millennium if they were to alter the book during that time?
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I understand what you're saying, but I still think you're taking this too literally. I think the term "plagues" is used in a very general sense as portraying judgment that falls upon those who embrace Antichristianity and rebel against God's word, persecuting the saints of God. Those who corrupt God's word by twisting it to deflect away from this warning, because they wish to live in a wrong way, will not be able to avoid the plagues promised to those who do these kinds of things.
As I said earlier, the term "plagues" is inclusive of plagues that happen throughout the age for those who embrace the pagan Roman system that persecuted the Church. Harlot Babylon referred, I think to the Roman system that will evolve into the Antichristian Empire. A plague is pronounced upon all, who embrace that system in the present age and those who embrace Antichrist in his own time.
Once again, this *cannot* refer to those only who live in the time of the Beast because the book was written first to those who lived in the time of John, well before the Antichrist would even rise. They also would suffer plagues like that mentioned in the book of Revelation because they would be acting as badly as those who wished to deny the lessons of Revelation in the time of Antichrist.
It would be like Hitler and his Nazis wanting to turn the cross upside down or break it down into a swastika, and then thinking they won't suffer plagues because they do not yet live in the time of the Antichrist. Hitler *was* an antichrist, and plagues are promised to *all* those who corrupt the word of God and think they can get away with it.
Well I guess I do understand it as the actual plagues that are written in Revelation that get added to a person. I can understand that the plagues themselves can be a type of plague or non-literal plague but it would still be the actual plague that is added.
I think you see it as literal plagues that happen during a specific time and so those actual plagues cannot be added to a person outside of that time, therefore the plagues added to someone have to only be a *kind* and not the actual plague.
I personally think Revelation 22:18 has to be referring to the actual plague because it specifically states the plagues written in the book, and the *kind* is not written in the book. I guess this is just where we can agree to disagree.
Personally I wouldn't know how to describe this spirit, only to know that it is, and it has a ruler. I think of "the Adamic nature" as more describing corruption caused in us by sin.
Much love!
Let me ask you this, do you think the people on earth during the time of the plagues have free will or the ability to resist a spirit?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Is that a plague? Or the total lack of spiritual power? You are talking about 2 different things. How is a literal plague experienced after death? No verse declares that.
The natural state of man, is already spiritual death, and the lack of spiritual power as defined in Amos 8:11.
When you compare what Amos said to what John said, all you are saying is that people will be more without God, than they already were, naturally, if they take away or add to God's Word. The natural state of man is Adam's punishment. John is declaring punishment onto a certain individual above what they already are naturally.
I would interpret Amos as a metaphor to man's natural state, not an actual plague symbolic or literal. Amos pointed out it was not a literal plague:
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water."
Nor would any of these thoughts pertain to humans already physically dead.
Alright, I agree with you, once a person is dead they can’t experience literal plagues.
Why are there no records of anyone who has added to the book experiencing any of the plagues? Someone changed 666 to 616 as seen in some of the manuscripts, did they experience any of the bowls or trumpet plagues?
Well I don’t want to get into a debate on free will vs election, but if the people on earth have the ability to resist the gathering to Armageddon then it’s not just a matter of a spirit tell someone to go to battle.
There are always people who will protest and resist just for the sake of doing it. Unless human nature changes or free will is no longer present, it will not be possible to gather the whole world to battle unless force is used.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
That is not exactly what draws all of humanity to Armageddon though. Yes spiritual calling is used via the FP, the beast, and Satan. But you are missing one part of the Armageddon confrontation:
"to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. And he (God Almighty) gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."
The spiritual calling of Satan is part of changing people's mind, but it is God who gathers all in one place. They all will be killed, as that is the end of Adam's punishment of death.
I thought one of the main arguments for free will is that it is possible to resist God.
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
Are you saying it’s no longer possible to resist God when the plagues come?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The point John was making was to prevent the book of Revelation to be altered and changed over the generations to come between when he wrote and that final judgment. Only God reserves the right to deal with individuals who try to change it throughout time. What God does or does not do, does not make John a false witness. John did exactly what God told him to do concerning this book, including the warning attached, regardless of textual criticism that may arrise.
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