God shall add unto him the plagues

[Timtofly]

Here’s a list of discrepancies …



Rev 1:5 "having washed away our" vs. "having washed away" vs. "having washed you from" vs. "having freed us from" (later manuscripts) (The words "freed" and "washed" are identical in Greek except that "freed" has "ou" and "washed" has "u").

Rev 1:6 "forever and forever" vs. "forever" (2 words)

Rev 1:8 "Alpha and Omega" vs. "Alpha and Omega, beginning and ending" (3 words)

Rev 1:11 "saying, what..." (majority text, all modern translations) vs. "saying, I am the alpha and Omega, the first and last, and what..." (KJV, NKJV). 13 words not counted in the totals.

Rev 1:15 "they glowed / have been fired" vs. "it glowed / has been fired"

Rev 2:2 "labor" vs. "your labor"

Rev 2:7 "of God" (Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, Ephraemi Rescriptus) vs. "my God" (Byzantine Lectionary, Sahidic Coptic, Bohairic Coptic, Ethiopic)

Rev 2:10 "Not at all" vs. "not" (2 letters difference)

Rev 2:10 "you will have" vs. "you are having/continue to have" (1 letter difference)

Rev 2:13 "my faith, even" vs. "my faith,"

Rev 2:13 "days" vs. "days which"

Rev 2:20 "woman" vs. "your woman"

Rev 2:22 "bed" vs. "sickbed"

Rev 2:22 "their works/deeds" vs. "her works/deeds" (2 words)

Rev 2:23 "your" vs. "our" vs. "her"

Rev 3:2 "things" vs. "works/deeds/actions"

Rev 3:5 "they" vs. "he"

Rev 4:7 "as of a man" vs. "as of men"

Rev 4:11 "they were" vs. "they are" (1 word)

Rev 5:1 "within and on the back" vs. "within and on the outside" vs. "on the outside and within"

Rev 5:4 "and" vs. "and I"

Rev 5:6 "the seven" vs. "the" (regardless, seven is mentioned previously)

Rev 5:9 "God" vs. "God of us" vs. "us"

Rev 5:10 "make them" vs. "make us"

Rev 5:10 "we shall reign" vs. left off one letter

Rev 5:13 "and" vs. "is and"

Rev 6:1 (and 2) "come" vs. "come and see" (different word for see) vs. "Come and look and see" vs. "come and be present and see"

Rev 6:2 "and see" vs. absent (together with the previous 1 one word)

Rev 6:3-4 "come" vs. "come and see"

Rev 6:4 "from/out from/because" (ek) vs. "from/away from/since" (apo)

Rev 6:5 "come" vs. "come and see" (2 words)

Rev 6:5 "and see" vs. "and see" (different Greek word for see) vs. (absent)

Rev 6:7 "come" vs. "come and see"

Rev 6:8 "see" vs. "see" (different Greek word)

Rev 6:8 "sitting upon" vs. sat on"

Rev 6:11 "should be fulfilled" vs. "should fulfill" 1 letter difference

Rev 6:12 "and" vs. "and behold"

Rev 6:17 "their" vs. "his"

Rev 7:4 "thousand" (xiliades) vs. (xeiliades) (spelling) (only Chester Beatty III) (1 letter)

Rev 7:12 (absent) vs. "amen"

Rev 8:8 "great with burning" vs. "great burning" (only in Philoxenian Syriac so 1 word not counted in the totals)

Rev 9:7 "like gold" vs. "golden"

Rev 9:13 "four horns" vs. "horns" (regardless, four is mentioned previously)

Rev 9:20 "neither" vs. "nor"

Rev 9:21 "sorcery" vs. "sorceries"

Rev 10:4 "when ... ?" vs. "as I was about"

Rev 10:6 "and the sea and the things in it" vs. (absent) (7 words)

Rev 10:7 "of themselves slaves the prophets" vs. "of the prophets themselves of slaves" vs. "of Himself slaves the prophets"

Rev 11:1 "staff" (p47, original Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, Byzantine Lectionary, Sahidic Coptic, Bohairic Coptic, Ethiopic) vs. "staff and the angel stood" (2nd corrector of Sinaiticus, so not counted in the totals) (4 words)

Rev 11:2 "outside" vs. "inside" (1 letter difference)

Rev 11:9 "bodies" vs. "body"

Rev 11:12 "they heard" (original Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, Ephraemi Rescriptus) vs. "I heard" (p47, corrected Sinaiticus, Sahidic Coptic, Bohairic Coptic)

Rev 11:17 "because" vs. "and because"

Rev 11:19 "that in Heaven" vs. "in Heaven"

Rev 12:18 "And it stood" vs. "And I stood"

Rev 13:1 "named of blasphemy" vs. "names of blasphemy"

Rev 13:6 "those in Heaven" vs. "And those in Heaven"

Rev 13:7 "to make war" vs. "war to make"

Rev 13:7 "saints" vs. "saints and overcame them" (2 words)

Rev 13:8 "whom (repeated)" vs. "of whom"

Rev 13:8 "belonging to Him" vs. (absent)

Rev 13:10 "into captivity, into captivity he goes" vs. "into captivity leads, into captivity he goes" vs. "into captivity he goes" vs. "into captivity gathers, into captivity he goes"

Rev 13:10 "killed, he" vs. "kill, he"

Rev 13:15 "might even speak and cause" vs. "speak, and he will cause"

Rev 13:17 "Even that not any" vs. "That not any"

Rev 13:18 "six hundred sixty-six" (spelled-out) vs. "666" vs. "616" (Irenaeus, who wrote about 182-188 A.D., in Against Heresies book 5 chapter 30 says "616" is most likely a copyist error and it is really "666".

Rev 14:1 "having the name" (Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, Ephraemi Rescriptus) vs. "having name" (p47, Sahidic Coptic, Bohairic Coptic, Byzantine Lectionary) vs. "having the name of Him and His father's name (only in textus receptus and KJV according to New Age Bible Versions Refuted p.6)

Rev 14:3 "sing as a song" vs. "sing a song"

Rev 14:5 "unmarked" vs. "unmarked for"

Rev 14:6 "another angel" vs. "angel another"

Rev 14:8 "angel sound" vs. "second angel sound" vs. "second" vs. "angel"

Rev 14:13 "Yes says" vs. "says yes"

Rev 14:18 "went forth out of the altar" vs. "out of the altar went forth"

Rev 14:19 "great" (same meaning and the same grammar except a different declension)

Rev 15:3 "nature" vs. "all the natures" vs. "nations" vs. "ages" vs. "saints" (2 words)

Rev 15:4 "no not fear" vs. "you not fear" vs. "no not fear you" vs. "you no not fear"

Rev 15:6 "linen" vs. "linens"

Rev 16:3 "thing" vs. "thing. things in the sea" (3 words)

Rev 16:4 "it became" vs. "they became"

Rev 16:17 "temple from the throne" vs. "temple of heaven from the throne" vs. "Temple of God" (Sinaiticus - not counted in the totals) (2 words)

Rev 16:18 "man came into being" vs. "came into being man"

Rev 17:4 "fornication (porneia) of her" vs. "fornication (porneia) of the earth"

Rev 17:8 "will go" vs. "goes"

Rev 18:2 "demons, and a haven from every spirit unclean," vs. "demons," (5 words)

Rev 18:3 "of the wine of the anger" vs. "of the anger of the wine" vs. "of the wine" (3 words)

Rev 18:3 "have drunk of" vs. "have fallen by"

Rev 18:8 "Lord the God" vs. "God the Lord"

Rev 18:11 "in/on him" vs. "in/on me"

Rev 18:12 "of wood" (Sinaiticus, Ephraemi Rescriptus, Bohairic Coptic, Sahidic Coptic, Byzantine Lectionary, Armenian) vs. "of stone" (Alexandrinus, not counted in the totals)

Rev 18:17 "and those on" vs. "those passengers on"

Rev 18:22 "every craftsmen of every craft" vs. "every craftsman"

Rev 19:5 "and those fearing" vs. "those fearing"

Rev 19:6 "Lord our God" vs. "Lord God"

Rev 19:7 "let us have" (1st plural subjunctive) vs. "having" (1st plural indicative) vs. "we will give"

Rev 19:11 "being called faithful" vs. "faithful"

Rev 19:12 "him, as" vs. "him"

Rev 19:13 "having been dipped" vs. "having been passed"

Rev 20:6 "the" vs. (absent)

Rev 20:9 "from/out from/because" [ek] vs. "from/away from/since" [apo]

Rev 21:3 "peoples" vs. "people"

Rev 21:3 "with them will be their God" vs. "will be with them, God of them" vs. "will be with them, God of them" (order of 2 words)

Rev 21:4 "for the things first" vs. "things first"

Rev 21:5 "He says" vs. "He says to me"

Rev 21:12 "and the names" (Alexandrinus) vs. "and names" (Byzantine Lectionary) vs. "and" Sinaiticus, Armenian) (2 words)

Rev 22:14 "those who wash their robes" (Sinaiticus, Alexandrinus, Vulgate, Sahidic Coptic, Ethiopic) vs. "those doing his commands" (Byzantine Lectionary, Italic, Philoxenian Syriac, Bohairic Coptic, Tertullian, Cyprian, Armenian)

Rev 22:19 "take away their part in the tree of life" vs. "take away their part in the book of life" ("book" is only in the Vulgate and one or two Greek manuscripts, so it is nearly certain "book" was a copyist error.)

Rev 22:21 "Lord Jesus" vs. "Lord"

Rev 22:21 "with all" vs. "with all of you" "the saints / God's people"

Rev 22:21 (absent) (Alexandrinus) vs. "amen" at the end (Sinaiticus)

Discrepancies from what? Different manuscripts? Textual criticism is hardly the means of documenting a person or group who deliberately changed the book of Revelation.

You have to have a record of who and when. Certainly not the comparison of thousands of manuscripts 1800 years after the fact.

 

[Hobie]

That means either dead people can experience the plagues or there is a resurrection of the dead in order for them to experience the plagues. Which is it?

It's called the resurrection of the unjust or damnation by Christ, and this is after the 1000 years and the first resurrection of the saints at the Second Coming. Now the real issue is it added at the Lake of Fire at the Second death..

 

[grafted branch]

Discrepancies from what? Different manuscripts? Textual criticism is hardly the means of documenting a person or group who deliberately changed the book of Revelation.

You have to have a record of who and when. Certainly not the comparison of thousands of manuscripts 1800 years after the fact.

Where do you draw the line on what’s considered altering the book? Did you even look at the list?

One example is Revelation 13:7, one version is “and it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them”. The other version is “and it was given unto him to make war with the saints”. Do you think it doesn’t really matter whether the beast overcomes or not?

Clearly there have been alterations to the book, we obviously can’t know if they were intentional or not because those who did these alterations are now dead. Let’s move on to more modern times.

Here is a direct quote from the churchofjesuschrist.org website.

“This explanatory revelation was, of course, not the only contribution the Prophet Joseph Smith made to our understanding of the book of Revelation from his translation of the Bible. As he worked, he sometimes was inspired to simply render the text more clearly,' but often he also was inspired to add or revise text in order to draw links to other scriptures so that they reinforce one another.”

There is no record of Joseph Smith receiving any of the literal plagues in the book of Revelation. Why do you suppose that was?

 

[grafted branch]

It's called the resurrection of the unjust or damnation by Christ, and this is after the 1000 years and the first resurrection of the saints at the Second Coming. Now the real issue is it added at the Lake of Fire at the Second death..

Hold on a minute, you said in post #108 “The plaques are at the end, and probation closes as each case is decided as saints or sinners, and then the Second Coming of Christ.”
Now you’re saying the unjust aren’t resurrection until after the millennium.

Do the plagues happen before the millennium or after the millennium? If the plagues happen before the millennium then the un-resurrected unjust people who have added to the book have to experience those plagues. How can a dead person experience the plagues?

 

[Timtofly]

Where do you draw the line on what’s considered altering the book? Did you even look at the list?

One example is Revelation 13:7, one version is “and it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them”. The other version is “and it was given unto him to make war with the saints”. Do you think it doesn’t really matter whether the beast overcomes or not?

Clearly there have been alterations to the book, we obviously can’t know if they were intentional or not because those who did these alterations are now dead. Let’s move on to more modern times.

Here is a direct quote from the churchofjesuschrist.org website.

“This explanatory revelation was, of course, not the only contribution the Prophet Joseph Smith made to our understanding of the book of Revelation from his translation of the Bible. As he worked, he sometimes was inspired to simply render the text more clearly,' but often he also was inspired to add or revise text in order to draw links to other scriptures so that they reinforce one another.”

There is no record of Joseph Smith receiving any of the literal plagues in the book of Revelation. Why do you suppose that was?

Yes, even Jesus is overcome by Satan per Revelation. But not being explicit enough, seems to be John's point by using a lot of symbolism. Should we know that point with or without those explicit words?

I read them. It is a list of textual differences. But you have not documented how these are deliberate changes. Even a translation can change the meaning, but not the words of the book of Revelation.

To keep a meaning, a translator will have to change the words. Some manuscripts are the results of several language changes.

If you are using Joseph Smith as an example, what about every poster who deliberately "corrects" the book of Revelation on these online platforms? For all we know he could have been judged before he died.

 

[DeHare]

Ok thanks for that, we have something to work with here.

From Wikipedia the origin of the black plague is disputed but genetic analysis suggests about 600 BC on the China border. How many outbreaks in the early years isn’t known but it was introduced to Europe in 1347. After the initial wave of the plague it remained and there were repeated outbreaks in Europe and the Mediterranean throughout the 14th to 17th centuries.
Another wave started in China in 1855 and spread to all inhabited continents. It killed 10 million in India alone.
The plague continued on in various areas of the world, sometimes the outbreaks affected small areas while other outbreaks affected multiple regions.
The first epidemic of the plague in the US occurred in San Francisco in 1900 to 1904, a second wave started in 1907.



I can see your point on the reformation and how it might align with the plague in Europe but the plague has resurfaced several times since then and it may have caused an epidemic elsewhere prior to the European outbreak, we simply don’t know.

Have you tried to align all the various waves of this particular plague with the rise and fall of questionable doctrine in the church?

We are dealing with plagues attributed to those who add or subtract the word of God. Therefore, it applies to (nominally) Christian settings. Pleague outbreaks in China and India are outside the ambits of this particular warning.

 

[grafted branch]

I read them. It is a list of textual differences. But you have not documented how these are deliberate changes. Even a translation can change the meaning, but not the words of the book of Revelation.

Oh really, which translation has 616? Which translation doesn’t have the saints being overcome? People in the past worked diligently to sort through these differences in the various manuscripts to give us what we consider the “words” of the book of Revelation. I personally think this work should be held in high regard.

Whether the differences in the manuscripts was intentional or not, neither of us knows. I can’t document how these differences were deliberate but neither can you document how they weren’t. It’s a stalemate, as I have said in the previous post we can’t know, these people are all dead now. But what we can know are things such as all the living souls in the sea haven’t literally died in the last 2,000 years.

If you are using Joseph Smith as an example, what about every poster who deliberately "corrects" the book of Revelation on these online platforms? For all we know he could have been judged before he died.

Are you saying for all you know a person may have had the plagues added to them in the past, before they died? If so how can the plagues be literal? Shouldn’t we be able to literally see the evidence of Revelation 16:3 where every living soul died in the sea?

 

[grafted branch]

We are dealing with plagues attributed to those who add or subtract the word of God. Therefore, it applies to (nominally) Christian settings. Pleague outbreaks in China and India are outside the ambits of this particular warning.

Ok, if three people all got the bubonic plague at the same time, with one being a true believer, one being a person who added to Revelation, and one who was an atheist, you would conclude that the reason the person who added to the Bible got the plague was solely due to their action of adding to the Bible, while the other two got the same plague for unknown reasons because they were outside the ambits of the Revelation 22 warning?

What’s the difference if it literally didn’t matter if a person added to the Bible or not, they all got the same plague. In order to be convincing it needs to be shown that at least the believers who didn’t add to the Bible never got the plague, else believers get the plagues added regardless of the warning, the warning becomes meaningless.

 

[Timtofly]

Oh really, which translation has 616? Which translation doesn’t have the saints being overcome? People in the past worked diligently to sort through these differences in the various manuscripts to give us what we consider the “words” of the book of Revelation. I personally think this work should be held in high regard.

Whether the differences in the manuscripts was intentional or not, neither of us knows. I can’t document how these differences were deliberate but neither can you document how they weren’t. It’s a stalemate, as I have said in the previous post we can’t know, these people are all dead now. But what we can know are things such as all the living souls in the sea haven’t literally died in the last 2,000 years.


Are you saying for all you know a person may have had the plagues added to them in the past, before they died? If so how can the plagues be literal? Shouldn’t we be able to literally see the evidence of Revelation 16:3 where every living soul died in the sea?

How can you stop a future event, by declaring there are no signs of that future event?

You say to hold those who spent tireless hours, sifting through thousands of manuscripts, in high regard, yet that work does not prove your point at all. One point does not prove the other point.

Your point seems to be since no one in the past has been recorded as actually experiencing a future plague then no such plague is actually real. So when it really happens, what was the point of this thread?

 

[grafted branch]

How can you stop a future event, by declaring there are no signs of that future event?

I’m not saying the plagues can’t happen in the future, I’m saying they can’t be literal unless you can show how those who have already disobeyed the warning participate in literal plagues, the plagues written in the book of Revelation.

You say to hold those who spent tireless hours, sifting through thousands of manuscripts, in high regard, yet that work does not prove your point at all. One point does not prove the other point.

What it shows is that the book of Revelation was altered in the past. In post #113 you stated that you didn’t even know of a case where theology has changed Revelation other than my alleged 616. I gave you a list and now you’re saying it doesn’t prove my point. I’m not sure if you’re paying attention here or not, my point was you need to admit there have been changes.

When we look at Joseph Smith he openly and admittedly altered the Bible. I don’t know why you seem to be having a hard time with this other than it debunks literal plagues happen when a person deliberately adds to the book.

Your point seems to be since no one in the past has been recorded as actually experiencing a future plague then no such plague is actually real. So when it really happens, what was the point of this thread?

The point would be that you need to be spiritually aware of what’s going on and not thinking you’re somehow going to be safe from the plagues by stocking up on water, food, batteries, and bandages for your grievous sores.

 

[Timtofly]

I’m not saying the plagues can’t happen in the future, I’m saying they can’t be literal unless you can show how those who have already disobeyed the warning participate in literal plagues, the plagues written in the book of Revelation.


What it shows is that the book of Revelation was altered in the past. In post #113 you stated that you didn’t even know of a case where theology has changed Revelation other than my alleged 616. I gave you a list and now you’re saying it doesn’t prove my point. I’m not sure if you’re paying attention here or not, my point was you need to admit there have been changes.

When we look at Joseph Smith he openly and admittedly altered the Bible. I don’t know why you seem to be having a hard time with this other than it debunks literal plagues happen when a person deliberately adds to the book.


The point would be that you need to be spiritually aware of what’s going on and not thinking you’re somehow going to be safe from the plagues by stocking up on water, food, batteries, and bandages for your grievous sores.

You gave a list of manuscript discrepancies based off of copying errors or translation differences from one language to another.

You provided an example of the number 666 some how changed to 616.

What you have not done is given documented deliberate changes to the book of Revelation, and why people at the time changed their entire understanding of what John wrote that would lead to God's punishment.

Joseph Smith allegedly received a whole new different "Revelation", not the book, an entire new "Bible" from an angel. Not saying he did nor did not. That writing from the "angel" was called a Revelation, not that Joseph Smith himself changed the book of Revelation. Not the deliberate changing of John's writings. Many posters today claim to "correct the book of Revelation". Is that a deliberate change to John's writings?

Is there a difference between interpretation, opinion, and theology loosely based on Revelation and a person forcing people to give up what is written and place a totally differently worded book as the book of Revelation? As far as I know, no one has altered the book of Revelation under church authority, so that what we have today, is not even what John wrote, despite manuscript discrepancies.

You have not proven that John wrote 616, and now every one can only read 666. You have not proven that a person deliberately tried to change 666 so that now we can only read 616. All you pointed out is that it happened. Even if that person actually was punished, we do not know one way or the other.

Your point was not that is has happened. Your original point was that they would return to suffer the plagues when they happened in the future or those plagues could not be literal, but only spiritual. Which means literally nothing, if no one can define a spiritual plague.

Has there been a literal plague pop up after each new translation comes out that does change other Scripture, other than, or along side of the book of Revelation? I have seen some translations that have changed Scripture to make "it say" their doctrinal point. Does the warning in Revelation cover all of the Bible? Is even you saying they are not literal plagues, but something else, a change in what John wrote? That is my point. Where is the line drawn between opinion, and forcing the entire world to now read a different book than the one John wrote?

Besides, what if some people do have to suffer more in the LOF, than other people? People have no real understanding of what the LOF even is, much less can they define it outside of what we read about it in Scripture. I don't see a person who is born from above having any desire to change God's Word. Punishment could extend beyond what little time we have on this earth.

 

[Timtofly]

The point would be that you need to be spiritually aware of what’s going on and not thinking you’re somehow going to be safe from the plagues by stocking up on water, food, batteries, and bandages for your grievous sores.

This is a whole different topic, though.

You now point out we need spiritual discernment to avoid literal plagues.

If the book of Revelation was altered in the past, that point has nothing to do with being prepared for the future, does it?

Being prepared for anything is having the second birth, and accepting God's gift of redemption. That is the only preparation that one can do.

 

[grafted branch]

You gave a list of manuscript discrepancies based off of copying errors or translation differences from one language to another.

You provided an example of the number 666 some how changed to 616.

What you have not done is given documented deliberate changes to the book of Revelation, and why people at the time changed their entire understanding of what John wrote that would lead to God's punishment.

As I’ve said those people who penned out the manuscripts are now dead, we can’t know for certain what their intentions were. If someone were to say today that they have an eighth bowl of wrath, then they are adding to the book of Revelation. Almost no one is going to change any of the trusted translations, we are simply going to say the person with the eighth bowl is incorrect.

The Revelation 22 warning is meant for an individual that adds to the book, it doesn’t mean there has to be wide spread acceptance of the addition, only that the addition was intentional. We trust that the book of Revelation is correct and no believer is going to simply start accepting additions. I suppose as long as you don’t consider it adding to the book then the warning doesn’t apply, so you’ll just keep saying the book hasn’t been added to.

You have not proven that John wrote 616, and now every one can only read 666. You have not proven that a person deliberately tried to change 666 so that now we can only read 616. All you pointed out is that it happened. Even if that person actually was punished, we do not know one way or the other.

Right, we don’t know if that person was punished or not, but we do know that person wasn’t punished literally with all the living souls in the sea dying, which is one of the plagues. In fact nobody has been punished literally with all the souls in the sea dying, as of yet, which is a glaring problem for the plagues being literal.

If the book of Revelation was altered in the past, that point has nothing to do with being prepared for the future, does it?

Your Question is assuming that our current book of Revelation may have been altered. Past alterations haven’t made it into our current Bible, they were rejected.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I would say these plagues have to be non-literal, spiritual events that have happened to those who have added to the scriptures in the past and are now dead.

They are literal and will soon take place, however, for the unbelievering souls of the dead, not til after the Millennial Kingdom. Of course if you are an Amillennialist, then just know that at the Great White Throne Judgment, Gid will resurrect all the unbelieving souls in Hafes, they will be judged, suffer the plagues and destroyed in the Lakebof Fire.

If these plagues are literal and still future events then it would seem that those who have added and are dead would have to be resurrected in order to have the plagues added to them, however I don’t know of anyone who holds the view of people being resurrected in order to experience the plagues.

. In Acts 24:15 Paul says, "There shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." John 5:28-29 says, "For an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

Now you know someone who believes in this view, me! And btw, many other Christians actually believe on thise words, literally. Some Christians that are confused, find scriptures hard to accept or don't fit well with their theology, sometimes assume " this must be meant to be taken symbolically". Preterists symbolize quite a bunch of scripture.

 

[Hobie]

Hold on a minute, you said in post #108 “The plaques are at the end, and probation closes as each case is decided as saints or sinners, and then the Second Coming of Christ.”
Now you’re saying the unjust aren’t resurrection until after the millennium.

Do the plagues happen before the millennium or after the millennium? If the plagues happen before the millennium then the un-resurrected unjust people who have added to the book have to experience those plagues. How can a dead person experience the plagues?

The judgement of the saints is done first and probation closes, then the wicked.
1 Peter 4:17
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

At the lake of fire is where punishment is meted out for the wicked, the seven last plagues fall on everyone, its not just for those who have 'added to the book', which is a preconceived idea not supported by scripture.

 

[grafted branch]

They are literal and will soon take place, however, for the unbelievering souls of the dead, not til after the Millennial Kingdom. Of course if you are an Amillennialist, then just know that at the Great White Throne Judgment, Gid will resurrect all the unbelieving souls in Hafes, they will be judged, suffer the plagues and destroyed in the Lakebof Fire.

. In Acts 24:15 Paul says, "There shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." John 5:28-29 says, "For an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

Now you know someone who believes in this view, me! And btw, many other Christians actually believe on thise words, literally. Some Christians that are confused, find scriptures hard to accept or don't fit well with their theology, sometimes assume " this must be meant to be taken symbolically". Preterists symbolize quite a bunch of scripture.

So are you saying that the last plagues literally happen twice? Once before the millennium and again after the millennium?

Revelation 16:13-14 spirits come out of the beast and false prophet and go forth to the kings of the earth. In Revelation 19:20 the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. If the plagues happen twice then it appears that it is possible to escape the lake of fire.

 

[grafted branch]

The judgement of the saints is done first and probation closes, then the wicked.
1 Peter 4:17
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

At the lake of fire is where punishment is meted out for the wicked, the seven last plagues fall on everyone, its not just for those who have 'added to the book', which is a preconceived idea not supported by scripture.

I agree, it’s not just those who have added to the book that get the plagues.

If I’m understanding you correctly then you have the last plagues/bowls being poured out after the millennium and the second coming also taking place after the millennium. We do see the rest of the dead live again after the thousand years in Revelation 20:5. Ok, this does make sense to me, as far as I can see.

What about the beast and false prophet during the millennium? We know Satan will be bound but what about the beast and false prophet, are they still loose during the millennium or are they also bound along with Satan?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So are you saying that the last plagues literally happen twice? Once before the millennium and again after the millennium?

Revelation 16:13-14 spirits come out of the beast and false prophet and go forth to the kings of the earth. In Revelation 19:20 the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. If the plagues happen twice then it appears that it is possible to escape the lake of fire.

Satan is locked up for 1000 years along with his demonic horde THEN released once again to do pretty much the same thing. People are born during the MK and so their faith will need to be tested. Many remain loyal to their King, but some are tempted by Satan and become reprobate. Judgments as plagues would be just for those who forfeit their soul and rebel against God. Why should they receive less of a judgment then anyone else?

 

[grafted branch]

Satan is locked up for 1000 years along with his demonic horde THEN released once again to do pretty much the same thing. People are born during the MK and so their faith will need to be tested. Many remain loyal to their King, but some are tempted by Satan and become reprobate. Judgments as plagues would be just for those who forfeit their soul and rebel against God.

What about Revelation 19:20? When are the beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire, before the millennium or after the millennium?

Why should they receive less of a judgment then anyone else?

I agree that all the unbelievers are going to be judged, no one will escape that. What ever the punishment that is determined will be just.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

What about Revelation 19:20? When are the beast and false prophet cast into the lake of fire, before the millennium or after the millennium?

Imagine a super volcanic eruption, splitting the crust of the earth open with a crack/cavern descending down to the Abyss. 200 million demon locusts come out to torture mankind for 5 months, then later appear as horsemen during the battle of Armageddon. The volcanic eruption also creates a massive lava lake ( lake of fire). Elements of volcanic lava are mentioned in the scripture: brimstone.

Key scriptures that describes this event.
> Rev. 8:8 "Then the second angel sounded: And something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood."
> Deut. 32:22 "For a fire is kindled by my anger, and it burns to the depths of Sheol, devours the earth and its increase, and sets on fire the foundations of the mountains."

People are thrown into this pit where there is a lake of fire. Whether it is formed close to the surface or it is deep within the crust of the earth, it is a literal fire that consumes. I liken it to the scene in the Lord of the RIngs when Golum falls into the lava lake/river.
So people from the surface are thrown into the PIT by angels:
 Isaiah 25:17-20 "
Fear and the pit and the snare
Are upon you, O inhabitant of the earth.And it shall be
That he who flees from the noise of the fear
Shall fall into the pit,
And he who comes up from the midst of the pit
Shall be caught in the snare;
For the windows from on high are open,
And the foundations of the earth are shaken.
The earth is violently broken,
The earth is split open,
The earth is shaken exceedingly. The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard,
And shall totter like a hut;
Its transgression shall be heavy upon it,
And it will fall, and not rise again."

So the Antichrist and false prophet are cast into this and destroyed. Notice not everyone is. JESUS kills the rest who are cast into Sheol to await their final at the second resurrection.
However, this event after the MK will be greater, total destruction of all reprobates and the entire planet, sun, moon and universe as well.
> 2 Peter 3:10 "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."
Then the new heaven/earth ( New Jerusalem) will replace the first heavens and first earth. No need for sun, no more darkness ( nights).
Talk about a big bang ( great noise).
Death and Hades itself are destroyed in this Lake of Fire that this time encompasses the entire earth.