'God working' question

[2ndRateMind]

You do understand that parables are stories with a spiritual meaning? The rich man and Lazarus is no exception...it’s not about real individuals but about a real life situation involving those who were represented by the characters. To take it literally it would be ridiculous. Are heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another? And can a drop of water cool the tongue of someone in flames?

You are quite right, but that was not the point I was making. Which is simply that, according to Jesus, both Heaven and Hell are elements of our reality we need to take into our ethical calculus.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Aunty Jane]

You are quite right, but that was not the point I was making. Which is simply that, according to Jesus, both Heaven and Hell are elements of our reality we need to take into our ethical calculus.

"Ethical calculus"....not heard that one before....:smlhmm:I'm not sure that the apostles would have known what "ethical calculus" could possibly be...?

Anyhow, we have to have a concept of what "heaven" and "hell" actually are, because the concepts outlined in the scriptures are not what is taught in Christendom's churches.....the exact opposite in fact.....so what do you believe about "heaven and hell" in your own understanding?
Let's start there....

 

[2ndRateMind]

so what do you believe about "heaven and hell" in your own understanding?
Let's start there....

OK. I have already started to discuss this, when I said that both Heaven and Hell are being in the presence of God. The difference being, our attitude to that. The good, of course, will find themselves vindicated. The evil will have a tough row to hoe. God, in my experience, is no pushover.

"Ethical calculus"....not heard that one before....:smlhmm:I'm not sure that the apostles would have known what "ethical calculus" could possibly be...?

Ah. Well, for that idea, I am indebted to the English utilitarian philosopher, Jeremy Bentham, (1748-1832 AD) who thought that the greatest happiness of the greatest number determined what was ethical, and further that the solution could be derived from a 'felicitous calculus'. These days, philosophers are somewhat more cautious, but the concept of a more general 'ethical calculus' does not seem controversial. I said we had made philosophical progress since the ancient Jews!

That's it, for tonight. I am aware you have raised some other points, and will endeavour to address these, tomorrow. But for now, it's way past my bedtime!

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I hope you have a good night. These will be part of tomorrow's discussions then....
I am looking forward to your comments....

Nearly, but not quite. One can believe the Earth is flat (apparently some still do!) but faith is on a different level. And, once we have faith in Him, God provides us a myriad of confirmations.

I agree he does, but then I don't understand why you then dismiss the OT narrative in Genesis as being Jewish myth....why would you believe that as if God only sometimes tells the truth? Was Moses real? Who informed Moses of all that transpired before he was born so that he could write it all down? Genesis is where the story begins....so how can it be myth if the rest isn't? When does reality start?
How did Jesus come to pay for the debt that Adam left for his children if Adam never really existed? Help me out here....

For me, the biggest of these was that I suddenly began to understand the world in a holistic, rather than piecemeal, way.

Isn't this where the "big picture" comes in?...the holistic view is the one God has always taken.
What do you think the Promised Land pictured? What do you think God's choosing of Israel pictured? Why were they wandering in the wilderness where most of them died before they even got there? Only two individuals out of that whole nation who were liberated from Egypt made it into the Promised Land. God is telling us so much about himself and his purpose for us.

And, as I heard one bishop say 'when I start to lose my faith, coincidences stop happening'.

I'm not sure that I could trust a bishop who was in danger of losing his faith...'being "faithful unto death" means not wavering in doubt. (James 1:5-8)
It means understanding what the Bible teaches and teaching others with conviction....the Bible explains itself if you let it.
There should not be a reasonable biblical question that a genuine student of the Bible cannot answer.
Where do we get the idea that we don't have to know what the Bible teaches? (according to our individual capacity)

How do we "preach the gospel of the Kingdom" if we have no real idea of what it is and what it will accomplish? (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20)

 

[2ndRateMind]

I'm not sure that I could trust a bishop who was in danger of losing his faith...'being "faithful unto death" means not wavering in doubt. (James 1:5-8)

But, even bishops are human (allegedly)! And, as the Archbishop Desmond Tutu pointed out, the opposite of faith is not doubt. It is certainty. But to be fair to the good bishop, I thnk he was just trying to explain some of what sustained him in his faith.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Individually, for our life spans. As a species, presumably until the death of the sun. (some 7 billion years away). Unless we do something incredibly stupid, like start chucking nukes around, or otherwise destroy the ecosphere on which we depend for our sustenance.

This was your response to the question...."And how long were they [we humans] to live on the earth?" But from a biblical perspective, you didn't answer it. If you consult Genesis you will see exactly how long humans were supposed to live on this earth....

The two trees specifically mentioned in the garden were opposites....the partaking of one fruit would lead to everlasting life (in mortal flesh) and the other would take life away.....permanently. That was the benefit of not being created "immortal" because immortals cannot die. Creating intelligent beings with free will would have been a nightmare if God could not eliminate them if they chose to disobey him. Hell was a concept created to give the impression that souls were immortal, but they aren't so "hell" must mean something else. What do you think "sheol" (Hades in Greek) meant to the Jews?

Since the Bible does not teach that we have an immortal soul, the concept of hell is not biblical. "Souls" are mortal (Ezekiel 18:4) and since the word in Hebrew simply means a "breather", we can see in Genesis 2:7, that Adam was not "given" a soul but "became" one when God started him breathing. Animals are also called souls in the creation account.
Solomon wrote about the futility of man's superiority over the animals if we all ended up in the same place...?
"for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20)

This is what Adam was told too.....
"In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19)
No 'heaven or hell' is mentioned there, and no 'heaven or hell' was taught in any of the Hebrew scriptures. So where did the concept come from.....?

Who was it who said..."you surely will not die"?....it wasn't God.

There was significance in the eating of "bread" because that had never been part of man's diet up to that point.....an abundance of various fruit trees were what they had free access to, so to till the soil on cursed ground in order to make bread, was diametrically opposite to what they had in the garden. Life was no longer going to be a piece of cake...or fruit....

So judging by the presence of "the tree of life" and God's declaration before he evicted the the rebels from the garden...
"Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—” 23 With that Jehovah God expelled him from the garden of Eʹden to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. 24 So he drove the man out, and he posted at the east of the garden of Eʹden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning continuously to guard the way to the tree of life."....

Man was apparently meant to live forever on earth in his mortal flesh. There was no promise of heaven, or threat of hell, just "obey and live....or disobey and die". That's it. Everything humans and all other living things needed to sustain their lives indefinitely, was provided in abundance. But in order to go on enjoying the pleasures of the garden, the humans had to stay away from "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"....that knowledge was placed in God's exclusive jurisdiction. It was the only thing that was withheld from them. A small test of their respect for God's authority and Sovereignty.

The original Paradise was here on earth, and it was man's job to have children and to spread the boundaries of their paradise home until the whole world looked like the garden of Eden....imagine if they had simply done as they were told....?

 

[Aunty Jane]

OK. I have already started to discuss this, when I said that both Heaven and Hell are being in the presence of God. The difference being, our attitude to that. The good, of course, will find themselves vindicated. The evil will have a tough row to hoe. God, in my experience, is no pushover.

Can I ask you where you got this idea? How are both heaven and hell in the presence of God"?
The Bible tells us that heaven is where God resides, as noted by Jesus in the Lord's Prayer...."Our Father who art in Heaven"...

But nowhere is it written that "Hell" is being in the presence of God.

The words mostly translated "hell" in the Bible are "sheol", "hades", Gehenna.
Sheol is a Hebrew word for the place where the dead are buried.....it is the common grave and according to Jewish belief they were to be raised from their tombs once Messiah had established his Kingdom on earth. Since Jesus was Jewish, he also promoted that idea when he said...
John 5:28-29 KJV...
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

The hope of the resurrection has been swallowed up by the error of an immortal soul.....there never was such a thing. The dead are called from their graves and those who have been faithful to God will be granted life, but the unrighteous ones will have a judgment period.

The word "damnation" is misleading here....it means "judgment" and those judged adversely after they are given a chance to learn about God, will simply forfeit their lives.....And God doesn't have to be a fiend, torturing people for all eternity....

"Hades" is the Greek equivalent of "sheol", so hades is just man's common grave. No one is alive in there....and there is no immortal soul to leave the body to go elsewhere anyway. (Ecclesiastes 9:5. 10)

"Gehenna" has been completely misconstrued to mean something it never did. It was the garbage dump outside the walls of Jerusalem and used for the disposal of trash...including the human kind, not considered worthy of a decent burial. Fires were kept burning day and night with the addition of brimstone (sulfur)....what the flames missed the maggots finished off. Nothing alive was ever cast into Gehenna.

 

[2ndRateMind]

I agree he does, but then I don't understand why you then dismiss the OT narrative in Genesis as being Jewish myth....why would you believe that as if God only sometimes tells the truth? Was Moses real? Who informed Moses of all that transpired before he was born so that he could write it all down? Genesis is where the story begins....so how can it be myth if the rest isn't? When does reality start?
How did Jesus come to pay for the debt that Adam left for his children if Adam never really existed? Help me out here....

Hmmm. Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. I had to visit the doctor, and it turns out I am not at all well, and they put me in hospital.

So. My model of the construction of the scriptures goes something like this. God inspires. Maybe the clerics, who interpret that inspiration according to their learning and times, and then instruct the scribes as to what write. Or maybe the scribes directly, with the same proviso around interpretation. While we can be quite sure this is an honest process, we can also be sure that we know a lot more now than they did when the scriptures were written and subsequently compiled into the Bible. Though there obviously still remain many gaps in our knowledge. So, it's not that God only sometimes tells the truth, just that He has only us, imperfect and largely ignorant as we are, to work through.

As for Jesus paying Adam's debt, well, that is one theory of the crucifixion. But not the only one, and not my preferred, for the reason you offer. Adam never existed. Humanity's proximate provenance is other apes, not dust and the breath of God. So, Eden never existed, either, and there was no tree of knowledge or forbidden fruit. This realisation allows for a far more optimistic view of humanity and our nature than the corrupt-to-the-core model offered by conventional Christianity. Perhaps the important thing about our common story is not that we are in rebellion against God, (though doubtless some are), but that once life began, we have ever since been making progress towards Him.

Best wishes, 2RM.