'God working' question

[Aunty Jane]

I do have a big picture, but, I am not ashamed to admit, that picture is equally informed by science, my faith, and my readings around the faith.

Me too....I see Yahweh as the greatest Scientist in existence since science is the study of creation at its extreme boundaries and everything in between. My faith has been built around Bible study and the big picture for me is more to do with the reason why God put us here on this earth in the first place. He prepared it so beautifully and thoughtfully and then designed us with the senses needed to appreciate everything that he made for our enjoyment.

What would beauty be without sight, or sounds without hearing, or endless varieties of food without taste buds, or texture without touch, or aromas and perfumes without our sense of smell? How wonderfully made we are, as is this amazing spaceship that we inhabit that is moving through space at tremendous speed, and yet he are anchored by gravity. We have only scratched the surface in studying creation.....yet mankind in their wisdom has decided to eliminate God from his own work.....its all just a series of very fortunate coincidences.....how intelligent of them.

Was it to be a temporary home, in training for life in heaven, or was this to be our permanent home and something mucked it up?
What does your big picture tell you?

 

[MatthewG]

Any thoughts on what type of work God is always doing?

Jesus said- “My Father is always at his work to this very day..” (John 5:17)

Jeremiah 31
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

God is constantly working on the hearts of people who allow him to do so.

 

[2ndRateMind]

What does your big picture tell you?

Hmmm. My big picture (subject to subtle variation in detail) tells me we evolved our senses to escape predation, find prey and other foods, and maybe find and attract a gorgeous girl to have a family with. But, I also think, from the very initiation of the universe, some 14 billion years ago, God knew that would be the way it would be for us, and intended it that way.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Behold]

Any thoughts on what type of work God is always doing?

Jesus said- “My Father is always at his work to this very day..” (John 5:17)

Redemption and Restoration

 

[2ndRateMind]

Me too....I see Yahweh as the greatest Scientist in existence ...

Someone famous (I forget who) once said that all of science is thinking God's thoughts. After Him.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[marks]

Sorry to go off topic a bit here, but I am always amazed when people quote the KJV as if it is still the language of the 21st century....
Do any of you speak like that today?
Can you show someone unfamiliar with the Bible any passage from the KJV and have it make a lick of sense?

Sorry you don't like the KJV, myself, I do.

Seriously.....what is the attraction?

The Bible was not written in archaic English, and the purpose of a translation is to convey one language into another so that the readers can easily understand it in their language.....

Having spent quite a few years researching manuscripts and translations, and having spent quite a few years using various translations, I've come to prefer the KJV for it's simplicity of translation, and that reading it feels the most to me like reading the Greek. Which I'd certainly do if I were better at it but I'm not.

Having studied it so much, I know lots about the translation, and it's really easy when I'm sharing with someone else to say "sees" where we read "seeth". Lots of people like hearing the KJV, to them it "sounds like" Bible. I don't find it a problem at all.

I don't know what "they" would say now, but I remember 20 years ago, "they" would say, the King James Bible uses a 12th grade reading level.

The NLT has a very simple reading level but you lose a lot of the meaning. NASB is true to the Greek, maybe too true resulting in choppy reading. And it doesn't use the majority of manuscripts, it uses the selected few that differ. So many do. My study has led me to Majority Mss New Testament.

I've heard it said that when the Bible is translated into a language, it "sets" that language in it's highest form. I don't know if that's right. This "archaic English" has some advantages, for instance, singular and plural pronouns. These are used many times throughout the NT, and modern English translations don't show this. In modern English, you cannot tell when I say "you" whether I am saying you singular or you plural.

Greek has singular and plural, and so does the KJV. And this makes a big difference in the meanings of some passages. So either, you have to know this from the Greek text, or you can just read the KJV.

One quick example . . .

21) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will."

21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes."

Where the KJV puts "quickeneth", that is, "make alive", the NASB puts "gives life to". You could argue they say the same thing, but I don't think so. Quickeneth, to make alive, is to do an action upon another with direct result, life. To "give life to" is to confer something to another. It was yours, and you give it to them.

What is the Greek word here? Is it to "make alive" or to "give life to"?
zoopoiei, "is making live", "vivify", from "zoon", "a live thing", and "poieo", "to make or do". So "quickeneth" gives the more accurate idea of the Greek than does "give life to". Not that the NASB is a bad translation, and "give life" appears in some definitions of the word. But the word itself is better reflected in "made alive" than "give life to", and that's what I like about the KJV.

Much love!

 

[marks]

PS. I've just realised another reason I like to quote the KJV. When I speak in 'plain English', I am reporting my own opinion. When I quote Scripture from the KJV, I speak with the authority of Scripture. The switch in style, helps, I think, the reader to distinguish between the two.

That's a better way to say what I've been saying, "the KJV sounds like 'Bible' to many people." Better, what you said!

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

Any thoughts on what type of work God is always doing?

Jesus said- “My Father is always at his work to this very day..” (John 5:17)

I think the Age of Reconcilliation continues until the end. Lots of work to bring his chosen people to him, to ready their soul for the plans he has for them. Jer 29:11.

 

[2ndRateMind]

...Was it to be a temporary home, in training for life in heaven, or was this to be our permanent home and something mucked it up?
What does your big picture tell you?

Well, we need to distinguish between the temporal, and the eternal, or spiritual. The world is our temporal home, in which the idea is, over our lifespan, that we develop the virtues and rid ourselves of the vices, and so befit ourselves for all eternity in God's presence. Or so I see it, subject, as usual, to variations in detail, such as premature deaths. Otherwise, of course, if one doesn't avail oneself of the opportunity of our temporal world, one probably won't like very much an eternity in God's presence, but that, as they say, is their problem.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[ScottA]

Any thoughts on what type of work God is always doing?

Jesus said- “My Father is always at his work to this very day..” (John 5:17)

God is the same always. So when Jesus notice that people were under the impression that because the world seems to present gaps of time when He is not the same, He simply corrected them.

All of which is because by the miracles of God it would appear that the world is moving as if on a timeline, while God is not. Which is actually backwards--and it is just the opposite. The world is what has stopped and God has not. The scripture reference to this is:

Revelation 8:1
When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
​

Since in heaven there is "no shadow of turning", i.e. no time per se, in this same backward or opposing way, the silence is actually that dividing of time spoken of by Daniel ("a time, times, and half a time"). All of which is indeed viewed as if backwards...because, as it is written, the creation is an "image" as if in a mirror.

Thus, after the seventh seal was opened and there was seemingly silence in heaven, then came the Word.

 

[Aunty Jane]

My apologies to the OP for going off topic, but I believe that scripture used to define doctrine must be accurately conveyed in the translation we use. We need to test them.

Sorry you don't like the KJV, myself, I do.

In my own studies, I find that the problems with that translation outweigh whatever benefits some may see in it's poetry.

One’s native language is often called “the language of the heart” and so translation into “the language of the heart” is very important......if not then it’s “all Greek” to the reader. Right?

Having spent quite a few years researching manuscripts and translations, and having spent quite a few years using various translations, I've come to prefer the KJV for it's simplicity of translation, and that reading it feels the most to me like reading the Greek. Which I'd certainly do if I were better at it but I'm not.

I have been a student of God’s word for many decades, and I find scripture speaks to me when it is rendered in a way that speaks to my heart. Archaic English may have spoken to people a few hundred years ago, but the language of the KJV leaves many scratching their heads today......and today is when we live....and simplicity is not conveyed in a dead language. If you have to learn archaic English, you may as well learn Greek....you’d be better off....no? :smlhmm:

The NLT has a very simple reading level but you lose a lot of the meaning. NASB is true to the Greek, maybe too true resulting in choppy reading. And it doesn't use the majority of manuscripts, it uses the selected few that differ. So many do. My study has led me to Majority Mss New Testament.

I have never been convinced of anything just because everyone but a small minority accept it or believe it...
I like to do my own research and when I study scripture, it first of all has to fit into the Bible’s overall narrative. (not contradicting other passages or clearly stated truths) And secondly, it has to be consistently rendered, not rendered one way in one verse, and then rendered a different way in another to promote a belief.

Let me give you an example in the KJV....
John 1:1 is used to promote the trinity doctrine.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

But in verse 18 it says...
“No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

Even in the Mounce Interlinear it says.....
“In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos.”

“No one oudeis has horaō ever pōpote seen horaō God theos. The only monogenēs Son , himself God theos, the ho one who is eimi in eis the ho bosom kolpos of the ho Father patēr, he ekeinos has made him known exēgeomai.”

"Hyios" (son) is not in the Greek text at all there in verse 18. "Monogenes theos", literally means "only begotten god". How could trinitarians explain how "God" could be "begotten"? Easier to alter the text, apparently.

So, when you read that in Greek, it doesn’t say what is translated into English.....use of the word “theos” is rendered differently in each verse to promote the trinity. Yet “theos” according to its meaning in Greek, doesn’t mean that Jesus was “God” (with a capital “G”) because the word is applied to any “god or goddess...deities or divinities”. (Strongs)

To distinguish Yahweh from other “gods”, the Greeks used the definite article, ("ho") which if you consult the Mounce Interlinear online (quoted above) you will clearly see the definite article used with reference to Yahweh, but not with reference to the Word.....
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God (ho theos), and the Word was God (theos).”
That makes the Word “a god”...but not “The God”. If God’s name had still been in use, John 1:1 would have read....
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Yahweh, and the Word was divine .”

The word “theos” is also used with reference to Jesus’ words in John 10:31-36.....
“The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? (NASB1995)

In the Mounce, you can see the definite article and where it is missing in the English translation, in relation to Yahweh.....

"The ho Jews Ioudaios answered apokrinomai him autos, “It is not ou for peri a noble kalos work ergon that we intend to stone lithazō you sy but alla for peri blasphemy blasphēmia; · kai it is because hoti you sy, a mere man anthrōpos, are making poieō yourself seautou God theos.” 34 Jesus Iēsous answered apokrinomai them autos, · ho “ Is it eimi not ou written graphō in en · ho your hymeis law nomos, ‘ I egō said legō, you are eimi gods theos’? 35 If ei the scripture called legō them ekeinos ‘ gods theos’ to pros whom hos the ho word logos of ho God theos came ginomai— and kai scripture graphē cannot ou dynamai be annulled lyō · ho— 36 do legō you hymeis say legō regarding the one whom hos the ho Father patēr consecrated hagiazō and kai sent apostellō into eis the ho world kosmos, ‘ You are blaspheming blasphēmeō,’ because hoti I said legō, ‘ I am eimi the Son hyios of ho God theos’?

The Jews were not accusing Jesus of being "ho theos" (the God) but of claiming to be the son of God. ...."theos" (a god...a divine mighty one). The difference is clearly indicated in the Greek text, but conveniently left out by trinitarian translators. Don't you have to ask why?

If Yahweh said that human judges in Israel were “gods” (theos) then the word is not used correctly in its rendering at John 1:1 if John 1:18 renders the same word as “Son”. This is pure trinitarian bias at work here. Can you trust those who alter what God's word says on these very important issues?

“Theos” can be applied to any entity who displays power or has divine authority (human or not). Even satan is called “theos” in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This "archaic English" has some advantages, for instance, singular and plural pronouns. These are used many times throughout the NT, and modern English translations don't show this. In modern English, you cannot tell when I say "you" whether I am saying you singular or you plural.

Greek has singular and plural, and so does the KJV. And this makes a big difference in the meanings of some passages. So either, you have to know this from the Greek text, or you can just read the KJV

Can you give me an example of this where it was vital to distinguish the difference between singular and plural? The example below does not seem to me to convey this to me....

One quick example . . .
Where the KJV puts "quickeneth", that is, "make alive", the NASB puts "gives life to". You could argue they say the same thing, but I don't think so. Quickeneth, to make alive, is to do an action upon another with direct result, life. To "give life to" is to confer something to another. It was yours, and you give it to them.

What is the Greek word here? Is it to "make alive" or to "give life to"?
zoopoiei, "is making live", "vivify", from "zoon", "a live thing", and "poieo", "to make or do". So "quickeneth" gives the more accurate idea of the Greek than does "give life to".

But first you have to know what "quickeneth" means....don’t you?

Not that the NASB is a bad translation, and "give life" appears in some definitions of the word. But the word itself is better reflected in "made alive" than "give life to", and that's what I like about the KJV.

I guess it depends on the meaning one wants to see in these things.....the meaning of the word “Father” is essentially “life giver”....so how is Jesus able to “make alive” those whom he wants to?
It is by the power of his Father’s spirit that Jesus himself can be a life giver. He restored the lives of those he resurrected and so did his apostles, using the same power. He promises to restore many more lives once his Kingdom is established over the earth. (John 5:28-29; Revelation 21:2-4)
This also agrees with one of Messiah’s titles in Isaiah 9:6 “eternal father”....and also why he is called “mighty god” rather than “Almighty God”.

So IMO, the translation we use must be consistent in its rendering throughout.....because once you start messing with the meaning of the text, the truth disappears, and confusion reigns.

 

[marks]

whatever benefits some may see in it's poetry.

Maybe you need to review my comments before answering.

meaning one wants to see in these things

Maybe review logical fallacies also.

Can you give me an example of this where it was vital to distinguish the difference between singular and plural? The example below does not seem to me to convey this to me....

Many people say that if someone smokes cigarettes that they are destroying God's temple, and so God will destroy them, because of the harm done to the body by cigarette smoking.

The passage itself uses the plural there. "You are the temple of God" is 'you, collectively', the corporate church. And the context there is about causing division within the church. Paul speaks that way both before and after that passage. (1 Corinthians 3)

The passage is not about doing things to hurt your physical body, though some interpret it that way, failing to distinguish the plurality of Paul's address. It's not, all of you individually are the temple of God, what he's saying in this place is, All of you together are the temple of God, so don't create division, and in so doing destroy the unity that God is building.

Yes, you do have to know the word. I myself know, and I'm adding to my vocabulary all the time.

Here we are on the internet. How hard is it to look up a new word?

My example was not intended to address plural/singular, rather to show how the word, when you know it's meaning, gives a better presentation of the Greek wording used.

And you are right, this IS off topic, so I'll leave it there.

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well, we need to distinguish between the temporal, and the eternal, or spiritual. The world is our temporal home, in which the idea is, over our lifespan, that we develop the virtues and rid ourselves of the vices, and so befit ourselves for all eternity in God's presence.

Can you show me that concept from Genesis? What was the purpose of man's creation from the beginning?
The Bible does not start with the gospels. The story begins in Genesis....so what is the beginning of the story? What was God's first purpose in creating all that he did, and then finally creating humans "in his image"...what did he tell them to do? And how long were they to live on the earth?

Or so I see it, subject, as usual, to variations in detail, such as premature deaths. Otherwise, of course, if one doesn't avail oneself of the opportunity of our temporal world, one probably won't like very much an eternity in God's presence, but that, as they say, is their problem.

Can I also ask you to define what you mean by..."if one doesn't avail oneself of the opportunity of our temporal world, one probably won't like very much an eternity in God's presence"? What of new born infants who die shortly after birth....or very young children who succumb to cancer and have no opportunity to prove themselves to God?

What is your big picture then?
Why are we here? Accident of biology or purposeful creation?
Why did God need to send Christ to give up his life for ours? How does it work? What are the mechanics of the redemption? And why was it necessary?
Is the Bible the complete word of God or is it a book of myths given to an uneducated people?

Do you see this earthly life with all its problems and tragedies to be something deliberately planned by God to build character, so that we would be better citizens in heaven?

I would like to know what your "big picture" is, if you can explain it....?

Some scripture to back it up would also be good.

 

[APAK]

Any thoughts on what type of work God is always doing?

Jesus said- “My Father is always at his work to this very day..” (John 5:17)

God is pure Spirit life. the source of all visible and invisible energy and force.

God is eternally active in his (Holy) Spirit in this world and universe to maintain order, balance and continuity. He has already completed all tasks that we can view, know and comprehend, out of time's influence. And we are just seeing them all unfold in the present time, as we are always in the rear, always catching up to him in the future time.

Anything static or in motion or changes in our time has already been planned and executed, unaffected by the passage of time. To him, he has already done everything, he is at eternal rest. To us and even Yahshua, he is working every moment and every day as he spoke that his Father is now working as he is also working (John 5:17). We have to consider both our perspective and the Creator's infinite view of existence and life.

BL: He has already done all, a heck of a lot (infinite amount) of work beyond our comprehension for his own pleasure and the love he shows to his creation, including mankind.

 

[Dropship]

I think the Age of Reconcilliation continues until the end. Lots of work to bring his chosen people to him, to ready their soul for the plans he has for them. Jer 29:11.

Who are his "chosen people"?

 

[Dropship]

..He has already done all, a heck of a lot (infinite amount) of work beyond our comprehension for his own pleasure and the love he shows to his creation, including mankind.

Which raises the question- why is the world in such a mess?..

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sorry if I have stepped on your theological toes, but these questions are vital if we are to answer issues from the scriptures....the rendering has to be accurate, and I do not find the KJV to be accurate in all of its renderings. I have given you evidence and you are brushing me off....why?
Shouldn't we care about accuracy?

Many people say that if someone smokes cigarettes that they are destroying God's temple, and so God will destroy them, because of the harm done to the body by cigarette smoking.

The passage itself uses the plural there. "You are the temple of God" is 'you, collectively', the corporate church. And the context there is about causing division within the church. Paul speaks that way both before and after that passage. (1 Corinthians 3)

The passage is not about doing things to hurt your physical body, though some interpret it that way, failing to distinguish the plurality of Paul's address. It's not, all of you individually are the temple of God, what he's saying in this place is, All of you together are the temple of God, so don't create division, and in so doing destroy the unity that God is building.

And if you read that passage in the NASB or the Mounce Interlinear, that is obvious.....why would I need the KJV to make that clear? Just read the first couple of verses to see whom Paul is addressing.

"And so kagō, brothers adelphos, I could dynamai not ou speak laleō to you hymeis as hōs spiritual pneumatikos people , but alla rather as hōs people of the flesh sarkinos, as hōs infants nēpios in en Christ Christos."

The KJV says....
"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)

Is "ye" somehow a better way of saying "you"? Which one of the apostles thought Paul was addressing an individual?

Here we are on the internet. How hard is it to look up a new word?

Exactly, but when I show you what I have learned, using the same reference works that many have consulted for decades, it is waved off.

My example was not intended to address plural/singular, rather to show how the word, when you know it's meaning, gives a better presentation of the Greek wording used.

Your whole point was "singular verses plural" was it not? The example you gave did not substantiate that at all.

What does "quickeneth" mean to the average Bible reader? I ask this seriously...

And you are right, this IS off topic, so I'll leave it there.

I'd be happy to start another thread, just to examine those verses for the "KJV only" set....
I don't believe that it is the most accurate translation by a long shot.

I'll understand if you don't want to respond.....but when questions are asked about the Bible, its important to have an accurate translation....one that fits well with the Bible's narrative, and doesn't contradict other verses in the way it is translated.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Which raises the question- why is the world in such a mess?..

Psalm 110:1-2....(ASV)
"Jehovah saith unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
Until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 Jehovah will send forth the rod of thy strength out of Zion:
Rule thou in the midst of thine enemies."

King David wrote prophetically about the situation after his "Lord" (the Messiah) had completed his earthly mission....he was to sit at God's right hand until his enemies were placed 'as his footstool'.....which pictures them losing their power.....and then God would strengthen his appointed King to begin his rulership "in the midst of his enemies".

This is why the world is in such a mess....Christ now rules in the hearts of his true disciples, who are busy carrying out his final instructions. (Matthew 28:19-20) Christ's enemies are bound and determined to get rid of his followers and the devil will use what he has always used to mislead mankind. He has formed a veritable army of opposers who can take a variety of forms at this juncture in history.....look what he used to put Christ to death....he deceived God's own people into believing that he was another false Messiah....a threat to their spirituality and the coming of the real Messiah.
But the "real" one had already come, and was executed by his own people....do we imagine that satan would use some other means at this time of the end to oppose Christ's return? The worst persecution on the first Christians came from their own people.....the ones who claimed to serve the same God.

Revelation 12:7-12 also explains why the devil is so determined to see as many go down with him as possible....

"And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, 8 and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. 12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.” (NASB)

This is "the time of the end"......the time that the Revelation speaks about. This is the time when the devil has pulled out all the stops and is now 'roaring' in all of our faces. We need God's spirit to combat his constant harassment. In Job-like succession, the hits just keep coming. So in Job-like fashion we have to endure, whilst not being lured into the counterfeit religious systems, or the atheistic undercurrents that now prevail in this world that satan rules.

We have to heed the command in Revelation 18:4-5.....before its too late.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Can you show me that concept from Genesis?

No, I can't show you that concept in Genesis. If I could, I would have duly quoted the scripture (from the KJV, of course ). All I can do is humbly suggest that God gave each of us an intellect because He actually wants us to use it, and because He did, and people have, humanity has made scientific, social, philosophical and theological progress since the creation myths of the ancient, bronze age Jews.

Best wishes, 2RM.