'God working' question

[2ndRateMind]

What was the purpose of man's creation from the beginning?

Oh boy! You do ask some big questions! That's fine, though, I like big questions, provided it is understood that a) they can only be answered in general terms, and b) any answer I might attempt is just my current take on the topic. So, to attempt this one: God created us to love us, and to live with Him in eternity.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Who are his "chosen people"?

Good question. My opinion is that we are all God's people, from whatever race, nation, faith, sex, gender etc. And we are all chosen specifically to fulfil our vocations, which, in this life, is God's purpose for us.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

And how long were they [we humans] to live on the earth?

Individually, for our life spans. As a species, presumably until the death of the sun. (some 7 billion years away). Unless we do something incredibly stupid, like start chucking nukes around, or otherwise destroy the ecosphere on which we depend for our sustenance.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Can I also ask you to define what you mean by..."if one doesn't avail oneself of the opportunity of our temporal world, one probably won't like very much an eternity in God's presence"? What of new born infants who die shortly after birth....or very young children who succumb to cancer and have no opportunity to prove themselves to God?

If you read my post you will find I anticipated the 'premature death' objection. I suspect though, to elaborate, an omniscient God will be able to judge such on their potential, and see an early death as a mitigating circumstance.

But what I was really hinting at was the Hitlers, Stalins, Pol Pots and (I anticpate) Putins of the world, who, I suspect, really will not like an eternity in the presence of God. For the good people who, in my happy experience, abound in majority, it will be Heaven. For the evil, who freely chose evil, and did not develop virtue, nor rid themselves of vice, it will be Hell. But being a soft-hearted sort of a second rate mind, I hope that even then they will have the opportunity to repent, atone, and find forgiveness. If they can bring themselves to do that.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Is the Bible the complete word of God or is it a book of myths given to an uneducated people?

Somewhere in between. I think the Gospels fairly reliable, but find, for example, the laws in Leviticus entirely inconsistant with Jesus' concept of God as the loving Father of all mankind. I think one has to choose between the two.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

I would like to know what your "big picture" is, if you can explain it....?

I am explaining it, discursively, according to the matters that interest you. Otherwise, I would have to write a complete book, which I doubt anyone would read. But meanwhile, I am sure you have more comments to make, and questions to ask.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Which raises the question- why is the world in such a mess?..

Mainly, I think, because humanity is still learning.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[APAK]

Which raises the question- why is the world in such a mess?..

God is goodness of life and the balance and power to sustain it in this universe and on this earth. He also deliberately caused evil when he later created independent willed creatures. (Spiritual level) independent will(s) away from the Creator WILL ALWAYS eventually produce mischief, evil, and sin. In short, he knows already that his created beings are all required to be sustained by him directly, and be a part of himself for eternal life.

This is the reason for all the mess in this human dominated world. And now we have a salvage clean up job happening in the spiritual realm and background with his chosen ones being selected in our time, over every generation until his planned and already foreknown ending of all this mess, evil and death is totally defeated and brought to a final conclusion.

And this mess will only get worse until this end, because of the increased human population and the independent commonly shared carnal knowledge base of the flesh and senses expanding and permeating in all of society and within all people. In other words they are all becoming more and more like souless/ spiritless dead living creatures - the zombies infested with the evil disease of death. It is much harder to be a genuine believer or Christian today because of it all and it will only get worse.

 

[Dropship]

..the devil will use what he has always used to mislead mankind. He has formed a veritable army of opposers who can take a variety of forms at this juncture in history...

Yes, one of satan's tricks is to influence people to vote for useless politicians around the world in order to destroy countries that way, I won't mention names but we know who they are..

 

[Wrangler]

Who are his "chosen people"?

Without appearing to answer via circular reasoning, the chosen people are the people God choses to extend his grace to for our salvation is not by the earned justice of our merit.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, one of satan's tricks is to influence people to vote for useless politicians around the world in order to destroy countries that way, I won't mention names but we know who they are..

Isn’t it strange how people keep putting their faith in those who simply work the system for their own advantage? Nations are ruled by egotism and power that has thoroughly corrupted them.....there are none doing any lasting good, although they can give that illusion....

1 John 5:19 says....
“We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”

Over what part of “the whole world” is satan NOT exercising his power? His powerful influence is behind all world governments, so that means that there are no “good guys”....only those who know how to use deceptive propaganda to gain public support. No politician on earth should be able to gain our trust because we know who the puppet master is. Deception is his stock in trade.

If we have been fooled into taking sides in politics, we have been overreached by God’s adversary who has divided our loyalties and taken a part of our heart that should belong to God....he should be our only ruler, which rulership he exercises through the kingship of his precious son.

Jesus told us to be “NO PART” of that world....(John 17:14; John 18:36)...so in real terms what does that mean? True Christians are citizens of God’s Kingdom and will not allow the rulership of man to take from us what belongs to God. We are to “pay back to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, but God’s things to God”. (Matthew 22:17-21) We have to know the difference.

Remember that the human race has found itself in the mess it currently faces because of divided loyalties. Right at the beginning of man’s creation, Adam was forced to choose between remaining loyalty to God or being loyal to his wife....
“There is nothing new under the sun”, Solomon said....and as far as human nature is concerned, the devil had us pegged right from the start....he has no new tricks, because we keep falling for the old ones which are tried and tested over thousands of years.....

It’s time to step back....and look up....whose interests are we serving?

 

[2ndRateMind]

It’s time to step back....and look up....whose interests are we serving?

Agreed.

Best wishes, 2RM

 

[quietthinker]

So what have we learned....or should I say who has learned the lesson? Who has succeeded in understanding the reason why God allotted the 7th day to bring problems to the surface and to bring erring mankind back to his original purpose....to have the earth "filled" with people who are always mindful of others and will work towards making peace with everyone. Jehovah is a God of Peace, which is why his son bears the title "Prince of Peace". He is the appointed King of God's Kingdom who will deliver perfected, sinless mankind back to his Father, so that our purpose here can be fulfilled.

Don't we all want to live in paradise conditions forever? I know I do....who said it had to be in heaven? (Revelation 21:2-4)

'So what have we learned?' to quote you, AJ......well I don't know about the 'we' factor but I do know about the 'you' factor, ie, what you have learned. My observations tell me that you have learned to out those you don't agree with....both personally and organisationally. That's the go to. Those who disagree or have a different angle are cast out.....even demonised! ....Isn't that so?

An exclusive God has an 'exclusive' mindset in his followers. By it's very nature it has to 'out'
An inclusive God, ie, one who loves in the true sense of the word, 'holds no record of wrongs'.

This idea would tumble popular theology so it is discarded.....just like people who don't go along with popular theology.

 

[Aunty Jane]

If you read my post you will find I anticipated the 'premature death' objection. I suspect though, to elaborate, an omniscient God will be able to judge such on their potential, and see an early death as a mitigating circumstance.

But what I was really hinting at was the Hitlers, Stalins, Pol Pots and (I anticpate) Putins of the world, who, I suspect, really will not like an eternity in the presence of God. For the good people who, in my happy experience, abound in majority, it will be Heaven. For the evil, who freely chose evil, and did not develop virtue, nor rid themselves of vice, it will be Hell. But being a soft-hearted sort of a second rate mind, I hope that even then they will have the opportunity to repent, atone, and find forgiveness. If they can bring themselves to do that.

Can you tell me where from the beginning of mankind’s history (biblically speaking) that heaven and hell were ever offered to humans as opposite destinations? Was Adam told that hell awaited him if he overstepped the one boundary that God created for them?

Where do we get the idea that ‘good people go to heaven’ and ‘bad people go to hell’?
Reading about the biblical description of both places, there has emerged a supposed choice between eternity in heaven and an alternative eternity in a hell of torment....and yet the Bible does not teach this.....but that is what the majority have been led to believe....I am surprised that you entertain such a concept, seeing as how the Hebrew Scriptures are just the ancient myths of Bronze Age people....?

According to scripture there are two destinations all right....but the choice is between “everlasting life” or “everlasting death”....that’s it. (Matthew 7:13-14) These are opposites.

God did not create us to live in heaven, but he did so the angels, who never needed to live on earth as some kind of training ground to develop their character.

If you dismiss the reality of the creation account, you dismantle the entire reason why Christ came to the earth. If Adam wasn’t real then Christ’s death is meaningless. If the devil is not real, then we have no reason to be in the dire straits that planet earth and it’s inhabitants are facing right now.....extinction. Have you ever explored Bible prophesy? We are seeing the fulfilment right now....in all its amazing detail.

Agreed.

How do we do that, do you think?

 

[2ndRateMind]

How do we do that, do you think?

Through meditation, prayer, intellectual endeavour, and remaining current with the affairs of the day.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

If you dismiss the reality of the creation account, you dismantle the entire reason why Christ came to the earth. If Adam wasn’t real then Christ’s death is meaningless.

I don't think so. Jesus came to teach us, and to provide us the example of God's perfect love. The crucifixion is both the proof of His commitment to His teachings, and the epitome of the example He sets us - that no sacrifice is too great for those we love - for all of us, especially Christians, to follow as best we can.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Where do we get the idea that ‘good people go to heaven’ and ‘bad people go to hell’?

Seems to me that God is good, and because He is good, He is just. And that idea, for me, is simply natural justice. As for the reality of both Heaven and Hell, check out the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, (Luke 16:19-31 KJV)

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Through meditation, prayer, intellectual endeavour, and remaining current with the affairs of the day.

It has always been in my nature to ask questions, and apparently Jesus did too because it’s how you get to know things about the subjects that interest you, and in getting to understand what people believe and why they believe it.....and it’s a good way to challenge what they believe if they have no scriptural backing, despite a firm commitment to it.
Is “belief” the same as “faith”?

I don't think so. Jesus came to teach us, and to provide us the example of God's perfect love. The crucifixion is both the proof of His commitment to His teachings, and the epitome of the example He sets us - that no sacrifice is too great for those we love - for all of us, especially Christians, to follow as best we can.

All of that is true, but it’s only half the story. If Jesus is the “Redeemer” how does redemption work? Why was it prophesied that Messiah would be ill treated and have to die for the sins on mankind? How do the mechanics of that work coherently?

What did the Jews and later the Christians understand about the sacrificial death of the Christ? The Jews knew all too well about sacrifice, but the Jews who became Christians had their beliefs expanded when they understood what all the blood sacrifices in Israel represented....and why they needed to be offered regularly. Christ only needed to offer his blood “once for all time”.

Can you explain what you understand about these things?
Why was Jesus called “the last Adam? (1 Corinthians 15:45)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Seems to me that God is good, and because He is good, He is just. And that idea is, for me, is simply natural justice. As for the reality of both Heaven and Hell, check out the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, (Luke 16:19-31 KJV)

You do understand that parables are stories with a spiritual meaning? The rich man and Lazarus is no exception...it’s not about real individuals but about a real life situation involving those who were represented by the characters. To take it literally it would be ridiculous. Are heaven and hell within speaking distance to one another? And can a drop of water cool the tongue of someone in flames?

Who do you think is represented by the rich man who is not said to be wicked....and who is represented by the beggar who was not said to be righteous? Where and what, is “hades”?
What is “the bosom of Abraham”? And how do these individuals change places?
Luke 16:19-31....would you like to read it again and tell me....? The details are important....but not obvious. You have to dig for hidden treasures.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Is “belief” the same as “faith”?

Nearly, but not quite. One can believe the Earth is flat (apparently some still do!) but faith is on a different level. And, once we have faith in Him, God provides us a myriad of confirmations. For me, the biggest of these was that I suddenly began to understand the world in a holistic, rather than piecemeal, way. And, as I heard one bishop say 'when I start to lose my faith, coincidences stop happening'.

Best wishes, 2RM.