God's message on flying away to save our soul

[whirlwind]

Ezekiel 13:1-2 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, "Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, 'Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! What was this all about? What were/are those false prophets teaching that God terms a "lying divination," a "vain vision?" [13:7]13:16-17 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD. Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy People, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them. These false prophets teach of a false peace for...there is no peace and what do they teach "out of their own heart?" RAPTURE.13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

 

[Christina]

very nice Whirlwind to add a little more What are these pillows? Eze 13:18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the [women] that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive [that come] unto you? Hebrew keceth 1) band, fillet, covered amulets, false phylacteriesa) used by false prophetesses in Israel to support their demonic fortune-telling schemeskacah 1) to cover, conceal, hide2) to cover, concealto cover over, spread over We can see these were devices used in fortune telling demonic schemes So what is this demonic fortune telling scheme that hunts souls that that says it will save the souls alive ? that hunts Gods people (souls) Thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, God is against this doctrine of a secret demonic scheme that hunts souls promiseing to fly people away ... Only one doctrine says this its Rapture that promises a secret coming of the Lord to fly his people away ... God is against this doctrine ... He never said it never wrote it ...this doctrine is spread by prophets(teachers) that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing! in Gods words about this.

 

[whirlwind]

You know it's funny about those verses. The word "women" is inserted when it wasn't in the text, I guess because "sewing" is involved and because of.... Ezekiel 13:17 Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy People, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them,Even that use of "daughters" is questionable. When you go to the Strong's there is a slew of words that could have been translated for the Hebrew word #1129 ben. Remember "Ben Hur?" The normal usage is "son, builder of the family name." In the long list only once is it given as female, daughter and...that was what was chosen to represent the false and foolish prophets. Go figure!

 

[Christina]

LOL ...had to laugh Whirlwind I too wondered why they inserted that word and reaserched it and could find no real reason except what you have said it seems they just drew the conclusion on sewing ... Which seems a some what questionable conclusion. However it did occur to me that Rapture doctrine stemmed from the dream of a young women Margret Mcdonald (who later went insane) and was then spread by prophets(teachers) that follow their own spirit. 1830: During the spring a young woman in Scotland, Margaret Macdonald, declared that she had discovered in the Bible what had never been seen by others: a rapture of "church" members described as a "pre-Antichrist" (or pretrib) event. Her words: "one taken and the other left" before "THE WICKED [Antichrist] be revealed." She was a partial rapturist seeing only part of the "church" raptured and the rest of the "church" left on earth. When she wrote that the "trial of the Church is from Antichrist," she meant the part of the church not included in her pretrib rapture. Leading partial rapturists including Pember and Govett have always applied the word "church" to the ones "left behind." Robert Norton, Irvingite historian and on-scene witness of Margaret's utterances, wrote that Margaret was the "first" to privately teach pretrib. A September article in "The Morning Watch" (Irvingite journal) saw the "Philadelphia" church raptured before a "period of great tribulation" and the "Laodicea" church left on earth. Huebner's "Precious Truths" claimed that Philadelphia was seen raptured before only the "seventh vial" and not before "the great tribulation" even though the article writer added twice on following pages that this "period" was indeed "the great tribulation"! In the previous (June) issue the same writer had seen Philadelphia on earth until the final posttrib advent. In between these two issues, TMW writers had visited Margaret who explained her new "revelation" which was soon reflected on TMW pages without giving her credit! In December a published article by Darby was still defending the posttrib view!

 

[PhilWS]

try the translators "letter to the reader" kjv 1611. http://wordstudy.org/1611pref.htm for the inside "skinny" on some heavy duty political stuff about the translation of the kjv.... like who would translate "pasca" as easter ?????

 

[gumby]

Thank you and god bless you whirlwind, i have always firmly put my foot down with the rapture myth. Psalm 91:3 referes to the trapper witch is satan through man made lies. Keep preaching the truth :)

 

[Martin W.]

their own hearts[/U], 'Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing![/B] What was this all about? What were/are those false prophets teaching that God terms a "lying divination," a "vain vision?" [13:7]13:16-17 To wit, the prophets of Israel which prophesy concerning Jerusalem, and which see visions of peace for her, and there is no peace, saith the Lord GOD. Likewise, thou son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy People, which prophesy out of their own heart; and prophesy thou against them. These false prophets teach of a false peace for...there is no peace and what do they teach "out of their own heart?" RAPTURE.13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

WhirlwindYou have taken a chapter of the bible totally out of context , used it totally in the wrong era , given it an additional mighty twist , used an obscure English language with obscure words, all in order to promote your hatred of anything rapture related.I could care less about your views on the rapture , or mine for that matter. The Lord has a plan that will unfold exactly the way he has decided, in spite of what you or I think it should be.My biggest concern for you whirlwind is that you completely mis-understand Eze 13 . It is not a complicated scripture. Read it again carefully. Best wishes and sorry for sounding so harsh , I just don't know how else to say it.Martin W.

 

[Christina]

[quote name='Martin W.;74070]Whirlwind You have taken a chapter of the bible totally out of context ' date=' used it totally in the wrong era , given it an additional mighty twist , used an obscure English language with obscure words, all in order to promote your hatred of anything rapture related. I could care less about your views on the rapture , or mine for that matter. The Lord has a plan that will unfold exactly the way he has decided, in spite of what you or I think it should be. My biggest concern for you whirlwind is that you completely mis-understand Eze 13 . It is not a complicated scripture. Read it again carefully. Best wishes and sorry for sounding so harsh , I just don't know how else to say it. Martin W.[/QUOTE']Sorry Martain but it is you who are taking it out of context thats exactly what it says no matter what version you read The bible never says a thing about any pre trib rapture or secret coming it says we are all gathered to the Lord at the 7th and last trump after the man of sin (antichrist) as I posted rapture came from a mentally ill child and it may come as news to you but the scriptures were written in Hebrew and greek not modern english. Pre trib Rapture is a theroy of men not the Word of God and one has never been able to prove differnt it in scripture ...unless like you have done here just refuse to hear God for your traditions of men. Your choice, but do not claim its Gods Word

 

[gumby]

[quote name='Martin W.;74070]Whirlwind You have taken a chapter of the bible totally out of context ' date=' used it totally in the wrong era , given it an additional mighty twist , used an obscure English language with obscure words, all in order to promote your hatred of anything rapture related. I could care less about your views on the rapture , or mine for that matter. The Lord has a plan that will unfold exactly the way he has decided, in spite of what you or I think it should be. My biggest concern for you whirlwind is that you completely mis-understand Eze 13 . It is not a complicated scripture. Read it again carefully. Best wishes and sorry for sounding so harsh , I just don't know how else to say it. Martin W.[/QUOTE'] I agree with christina here the rapture is a fairytale dreamed up by a poor sick woman and the two preachers ran with it and poof we have the all powerfull rapture fairytale out of thin air. The bible states not to make one of gods children stumble, Matthew 18:6. Thats what your trying to do but i praise the good lord that whirlwind receives the truth gladly and agrees with what god says not some sick woman. I as well as christina have disproved the rapture time and time and time agian on this site but you still cling to it. Have your little rapture fairytale but leave me and the children of god who recognize the truth out of it.

 

[Martin W.]

I will spell it out once more.Eze 13 has absolutely nothing to do with rapture doctrine.God help us.

 

[Christina]

I will spell it out once more. Eze 13 has absolutely nothing to do with rapture doctrine. God help us.

Then please do enlighten us Martain if you are so sure what it doesnt mean surley you can tell us all what it does mean

 

[gumby]

I will spell it out once more. Eze 13 has absolutely nothing to do with rapture doctrine. God help us.

And i will spell it out once more as well, Jeremiah 5:26 clearly states that god is against soul hunting. Thats exacly what rapture is about is deceiving and hunting peoples souls and when antichrist comes he simply flies them away and deceives them robbing them from spending enernity with the almighty father. And yet we parade and fly the little rapture flag in our own churches when god tells us hes against soul hunting. Its a discrace to see the crooked traditions of men deceiving people.

 

[Christina]

Amen gumby

 

[lecoop]

I have seen some amazing threads on forums, but this one tops them all for craziness.

First, WHO started the rapture doctrine? Of course, the apostle Paul.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Can we just accept that this IS in the bible, in every translation ever made. Why fight it? You are fighting against God Himself, who is the author of this book. It does not take any deep study of Greek to understand: a beginning reader can understand the intent of the author here.

Coop

 

[HammerStone]

Not necessarily; the problem comes with how the word rapture is defined. If you define it as simply the rapture, Gr. harpazo then I don't think anyone will take issue with it. The problem is, rapture has come to mean explicitly the pretribulational rapture(pretrib), of which the Apostle Paul did not teach. We're basically in the midst of one of those word meaning shifts, so I think this may cause some confusion.

 

[lecoop]

Not necessarily; the problem comes with how the word rapture is defined. If you define it as simply the rapture, Gr. harpazo then I don't think anyone will take issue with it. The problem is, rapture has come to mean explicitly the pretribulational rapture(pretrib), of which the Apostle Paul did not teach. We're basically in the midst of one of those word meaning shifts, so I think this may cause some confusion.

I disagree: there is a very heated war about the rapture, divided between pretrib, prewrath, and post trib! All of these folks agree that there will be a rapture, but as you say, it is when that starts verbal wars.

I personally think the bible teaches a pre-70th week rapture clearly. I would certainly be open to any discussions on why I believe this. I know that the classical pretrib has left a HUGE barn door open in that they say the rapture is in Rev. 4:1, when that clearly is poor bible exegesis. They believe that the 70th week starts with the first seal, which again is simply poor bible exegesis. I see many weaknesses in pre wrath, and even more for post trib.

Coop

 

[gumby]

I have seen some amazing threads on forums, but this one tops them all for craziness.

First, WHO started the rapture doctrine? Of course, the apostle Paul.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Can we just accept that this IS in the bible, in every translation ever made. Why fight it? You are fighting against God Himself, who is the author of this book. It does not take any deep study of Greek to understand: a beginning reader can understand the intent of the author here.

Coop

I have seen this argumernt to many times to count by several people the real meat of the chapter and what its talking about in verse 16 goes back to 1st Thessalonians 4:13 concerning were the dead are. So yet agian as swampfox stated there is no rapture in verse 16 nor did paul ever ever endorse it.

 

[Martin W.]

Some time in the future Jesus Christ will come down to raise the dead Christians and then translate the living Christians and cause them all to meet him in the clouds in the air.

This translation of living Christians is commonly referred to as the rapture. This is clear.

What is not clear is the timing of this event , thus the debate from all sides.

If scripture does not clearly tell us exactly when it will happen , then we are not able to say for sure when it will happen or when it will not happen.

Using systematic theology a good case can be made for pre-trib timing. A few road blocks pop up along the way.

As well a good case can be made for pre-wrath (mid-trib) timing. A few additional roadblocks pop up.

A claim can also be made with some evidence of a post-trib timing of the event. A great many roadblocks pop up along the way.

We should prepare for all three possibilities , plus a wild card.

God has a history of catching people by surprise when he takes action, thus my reference to a wild card.

God also has a history of removing his people to safety before he pours out wrath.

I find that encouraging.

Martin W.

 

[Martin W.]

I have seen some amazing threads on forums, but this one tops them all for craziness.

First, WHO started the rapture doctrine? Of course, the apostle Paul.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Can we just accept that this IS in the bible, in every translation ever made. Why fight it? You are fighting against God Himself, who is the author of this book. It does not take any deep study of Greek to understand: a beginning reader can understand the intent of the author here.

Coop

I have seen this argumernt to many times to count by several people the real meat of the chapter and what its talking about in verse 16 goes back to 1st Thessalonians 4:13 concerning were the dead are. So yet agian as swampfox stated there is no rapture in verse 16 nor did paul ever ever endorse it.

Gumby

The rapture reference is in verse 17 , not 16. Thanks.

1st Corinthians 15: 51-52 says much the same:

......Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

I agree Gumby that the topics in Thess. & Corinth. have to do mainly with the dead Christians and Paul is assuring everybody that the dead will not miss out on the coming of the Lord.

While he is at it , Paul also describes what happens to Christians who are still alive at the coming of the Lord.

Thanks
Martin W.



ps:

The debate should be about the timing of the last trumpet , not whether there is a rapture or not. By rapture I mean the translation of living Christians to meet the Lord in the clouds in the air.

There are a lot of trumpets in Revelation , not necessarily in chronological order , it is a deep subject which requires careful study.

M.W.

 

[gumby]

I have seen some amazing threads on forums, but this one tops them all for craziness.

First, WHO started the rapture doctrine? Of course, the apostle Paul.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Can we just accept that this IS in the bible, in every translation ever made. Why fight it? You are fighting against God Himself, who is the author of this book. It does not take any deep study of Greek to understand: a beginning reader can understand the intent of the author here.

Coop

I have seen this argumernt to many times to count by several people the real meat of the chapter and what its talking about in verse 16 goes back to 1st Thessalonians 4:13 concerning were the dead are. So yet agian as swampfox stated there is no rapture in verse 16 nor did paul ever ever endorse it.

Gumby

The rapture reference is in verse 17 , not 16. Thanks.

1st Corinthians 15: 51-52 says much the same:

......Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

I agree Gumby that the topics in Thess. & Corinth. have to do mainly with the dead Christians and Paul is assuring everybody that the dead will not miss out on the coming of the Lord.

While he is at it , Paul also describes what happens to Christians who are still alive at the coming of the Lord.

Thanks
Martin W.



ps:

The debate should be about the timing of the last trumpet , not whether there is a rapture or not. By rapture I mean the translation of living Christians to meet the Lord in the clouds in the air.

There are a lot of trumpets in Revelation , not necessarily in chronological order , it is a deep subject which requires careful study.

M.W.

Ok lets talk timing then, whats the diffrence between the timing of the rapture as you like to call it and the timing of christ actual return. The pre trib myth plays right into taking the mark. In fact the whole rapture timing is what debunks the theory because the timeline of the rapture lie and the timeline of chrits actual return are two entirlry diffrent matters. Ones fact and another is fiction.