Good apologists

[Gill082]

Hello,

I am an odd one. I'm a philosophical theist. But I'd like to explore Christianity. Any recommendations for apologist vids, books, whatever, would we appreciated. Some people might say you can't come to faith in Christianity through arguments......fair enough, but I became a theist by reading philosophy so might as well try.

Thanks

 

[marksman]

Read anything by Charles Colson or Lee Strobel.

 

[theefaith]

The fathers know best!

very interesting subjects also

churchfathers.org

 

[ChristisGod]

Josh McDowell and Sean McDowell, Frank Turek, William Lane Craig, Norman Geisler, Gary Habermas, Michael Brown, Tim Keller, Hugh Ross, Wayne Grudem. These round out my top 10 but there are more. @marksman mentioned a couple of good ones as well but I wanted to add to his list.

 

[Brakelite]

Messages — Storyline Church

 

[Addy]

The title of this thread makes me laugh... I keep thinking of people who are GOOD at apologizing... Sorry... I couldn't help myself.

 

[Karl Peters]

Hello,

I am an odd one. I'm a philosophical theist. But I'd like to explore Christianity. Any recommendations for apologist vids, books, whatever, would we appreciated. Some people might say you can't come to faith in Christianity through arguments......fair enough, but I became a theist by reading philosophy so might as well try.

Thanks

Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

The fact is that no amount of reading, research, or argument will cause a person to believe in the Lord!! You have to hear from Him and open up to Him.


Rev 3:20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

"Anyone" would include "philosophical theist" - if the Bible is correct Jesus Christ must be actually trying to get people's attention - so the question is 'will they believe that and open the door to Him? Letting Him into their life so as to talk to Him over say - lunch or dinner - is not the same thing as going and trying to find a book about Christianity. If indeed the Lord Jesus Christ is real, you should be able to start picking up things from Him in your spirit. Of course He is not the only spirit, but He is the omni-present God so it should be possible by faith to figure this out! Remember - you are trying to seek Him who talks to us via His Holy Spirit.

Jn 6:63 “It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Now let me ask a question: Who tells us to check into Christianity? Is that not from the Holy Spirit???

But if a person needs a book to read and think about - try the Bible!! He did have it written for that reason. But if you are just unwilling to actually believe in an omni-present Supreme Being through Whom all things were created so as to be able to hear from Him, then what. And what is a "philosophical theist" except for someone who tells themselves that there is a Supreme Being but is unwilling to actually seek Him for what He has to say and instead wants to just lean on their own understanding. That person doesn't really believe in an omni-present Supreme Being at all!! Otherwise they would actually seek Him and His voice!!

 

[theefaith]

Josh McDowell and Sean McDowell, Frank Turek, William Lane Craig, Norman Geisler, Gary Habermas, Michael Brown, Tim Keller, Hugh Ross, Wayne Grudem. These round out my top 10 but there are more. @marksman mentioned a couple of good ones as well but I wanted to add to his list.

Not apostles no authority

 

[Karl Peters]

Not apostles no authority

It is God who gives authority!! And have you not read that His sheep hear His voice?

So it is that even any "apostles" has authority it comes from God - so what about any ministry??? Or even any position???

Did we read the book of Job? Did we notice that Satan had to get authorization from the Lord before he could do what he did to Job?

So saying "Not apostles no authority" is just a failure to understand authority and how it comes down from God. Satan is not apostles but has been given some authority for a time. We, as sons and daughters of the Most High, have greater authority given to us because we are sons and daughters of the Most High God. Yet I would suggest you actually do some talking to the Lord to get a better understanding about power and authority!!! Even king does not just put his newborn baby over his army. Some teaching, growing, and maturity is needed before you start just throwing around authority!

 

[theefaith]

It is God who gives authority!! And have you not read that His sheep hear His voice?

So it is that even any "apostles" has authority it comes from God - so what about any ministry??? Or even any position???

Did we read the book of Job? Did we notice that Satan had to get authorization from the Lord before he could do what he did to Job?

So saying "Not apostles no authority" is just a failure to understand authority and how it comes down from God. Satan is not apostles but has been given some authority for a time. We, as sons and daughters of the Most High, have greater authority given to us because we are sons and daughters of the Most High God. Yet I would suggest you actually do some talking to the Lord to get a better understanding about power and authority!!! Even king does not just put his newborn baby over his army. Some teaching, growing, and maturity is needed before you start just throwing around authority!

Jesus Christ established the authority of peter and the apostles and their successors
The so called quote reformers had no authority and are not apostles or successors of the apostles

 

[marksman]

Jesus Christ established the authority of peter and the apostles and their successors
The so called quote reformers had no authority and are not apostles or successors of the apostles

 

[Josho]

Hmmmm

"One can never apologise too much."

"To be a good apologist one must apologise often."

These are the 2 keys of wisdom to finding a good apologist.

 

[ChristisGod]

Not apostles no authority

No one is talking about authority of Apostles who ended at the death of John, we are discussing apologetics/apologists.

And the FALSE TEACHING of successors is pure fantasy not reality.

An Apostles was one who saw the Resurrected Lord and was appointed by Him personally. Paul said and last of all He appeared to me in 1 Corinthians 15. An Apostle was an eyewitness of seeing Jesus Resurrected.

Paul was the last hand picked Apostle of Jesus and the Apostles ended with Johns death at the island of Patmos sometime around 90 ad.


Proof below that after Jesus Ascension Paul had seen the Risen Lord. That Jesus had personally appeared to him in the flesh with a body.

Luke 1:1-2
Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.


Acts 5:29-32
Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! 30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead — whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."


Acts 9:3-9
he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

1 Corinthians 15:3-8
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

1 Corinthians 9:1
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?

Acts 1:22
beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."

Acts 22:14-15
14 "Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from His mouth.

Acts 22:17-18
17 "When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance 18 and saw the Lord speaking. 'Quick!' he said to me. 'Leave Jerusalem immediately, because they will not accept your testimony about me.'

Acts 22:21
21 "Then the Lord said to me, 'Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.'"

Acts 26:13-18
About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, a '
Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
15 "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?'
'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16 'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle — sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ

 

[ChristisGod]

Jesus Christ established the authority of peter and the apostles and their successors
The so called quote reformers had no authority and are not apostles or successors of the apostles

and popes have no authority

 

[Karl Peters]

Jesus Christ established the authority of peter and the apostles and their successors
The so called quote reformers had no authority and are not apostles or successors of the apostles

No - Jesus Christ is the King of kings according to the will of the Father!!

Ps 2:6“But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”

Have you ever considered that the Kingdom of God is in your midst, so that you could hear from the King of kings - our Lord Jesus Christ?

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

 

[theefaith]

Hmmmm

"One can never apologise too much."

"To be a good apologist one must apologise often."

These are the 2 keys of wisdom to finding a good apologist.

no apologetics means to defend

Jude 1:3 contend for thee faith

 

[theefaith]

No one is talking about authority of Apostles who ended at the death of John, we are discussing apologetics/apologists.

And the FALSE TEACHING of successors is pure fantasy not reality.

An Apostles was one who saw the Resurrected Lord and was appointed by Him personally. Paul said and last of all He appeared to me in 1 Corinthians 15. An Apostle was an eyewitness of seeing Jesus Resurrected.

Paul was the last hand picked Apostle of Jesus and the Apostles ended with Johns death at the island of Patmos sometime around 90 ad.


Proof below that after Jesus Ascension Paul had seen the Risen Lord. That Jesus had personally appeared to him in the flesh with a body.

Luke 1:1-2
Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.


Acts 5:29-32
Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! 30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead — whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."


Acts 9:3-9
he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

1 Corinthians 15:3-8
3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

1 Corinthians 9:1
Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?

Acts 1:22
beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."

Acts 22:14-15
14 "Then he said: 'The God of our fathers has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from His mouth.

Acts 22:17-18
17 "When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance 18 and saw the Lord speaking. 'Quick!' he said to me. 'Leave Jerusalem immediately, because they will not accept your testimony about me.'

Acts 22:21
21 "Then the Lord said to me, 'Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.'"

Acts 26:13-18
About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, a '
Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
15 "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?'
'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16 'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

Galatians 1:1
Paul, an apostle — sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ

The apostles have authority from Christ to send other apostles until Christ returns Jn 20:21-23

matt 28:19-20 I am with you (apostles) until the end

 

[Josho]

no apologetics means to defend

Jude 1:3 contend for thee faith

It was joke lolz

 

[theefaith]

and poops have no authority, I'm sorry I meant popes.

Read the Bible
Peter and his successors

Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Only the church has authority from Christ to define the truth and teach!
Matt 16:18 matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Jn 20:21-23 Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13

Successors of Jesus Christ!

Jesus already prepares His apostles to continue His mission with His power (binding and loosing) and with His authority (keys) matt 16:18 matt 18:18

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

John 4:1 when therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John...
Jn 4:2 Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples

Here we see Jesus delegating to His successors, Peter and the apostles!

Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing

There can be no unity of the spirit without obedience to the faith! Rom 1:5 eph 4:3

Matt 28 I am with you (the apostles)

The papacy based on Matt 16:18 and Isa 22:21-22

Matt 16:18-19
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Isa 22:21-22
21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Behold I am with you (the successors or the apostles until the end of the age, so the successors must remain until the end of the age) matt 28:19

(None of the so called reformers were apostles) (no man has authority to start a church)


Successors of Moses!

Matt 23 why does Jesus say to obey the successors of Moses?

The successors of Moses sit in the chair of Moses having the authority of the keys and the power to bind and loose Matt 23 and Jesus commanded them to be obeyed! Then the kingdom was taken from them matt 21:43 and given to Peter, Matt 16:18 the apostles, Matt 18:18 and their successors with the authority of the keys and the power to bind and lose!

Jesus said to obey the authority of the successors of Moses mt 23 authority of the keys and power to bind and loose and this power and authority was taken from them matt and given by Christ to Peter, the apostles and their successors, mt 16:18 18:18 this same authority and power must be obeyed!

mt 28:18-20 all authority is given to Peter, the apostles, and their successors requiring obedience, rom 1:5 obedience to the faith!
And Jesus say to Peter, the apostles, and their successors: behold I am with you even until the end of the world!!!
So the apostles have to remain until the end! Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and Priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Reign with kingdom authority (keys) power (bind loose) matt 16:18
The successors of Peter and the apostles have a valid jurisdictional authority (keys) and power (bind and loose) by Jesus Christ!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.


apostolic succession!

explicit and implicit in scripture

Judas was an apostle
Acts 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Matthias succeeded him as apostle

acts 1: 26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

now if it applies to judas how much more to Peter and the other apostles

Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus is with His church and His apostles until the end! So the apostles must remain until the end governing the church administering the kingdom

Mt 16:18 Peter received the keys of the kingdom: (jurisdictional authority of the universal church) and the power to bind and loose:

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter:

Jn 21:17
Peter commanded to Feed my sheep:

Isa 22 21-22 prime minister called father!
Holding the keys of the kingdom under the king Lk 1:32-33 in the line of david!
Matt 16:18

—————————-

Grace and law!

The great error of faith alone is that you believe you are saved and under grace and that you ARE NOT subject to the Mosaic law, (and that’s correct) but also you are not subject to the moral law and DO NOT need to pray, fast, give alms, practice virtue, suffer for Christ, or be righteous, or keep the commandments, even the commandments of Jesus, or maintain any standard of morality!
It’s a gross misunderstanding of law and Grace!

Misunderstanding
of grace!

Confuses the mosaic law with the moral law!

—————————-
—————————-

Authority in what they teach and not in a person in an office!

Jesus is not our salvation: only what He taught?

Lk 2:30 Matt 16:16 Jesus in His person is our salvation, not only in what He taught!
Matt 16:13 not what do people say about what I teach, but whom do people say the I am!

The teaching of the successors of Moses not their person?

The successors of Moses sit in the seat of Moses Matt 23:1 a teaching cannot sit in the seat of Moses!

Peters confession not Peters person? Matt 16:18

You give the keys to a person not to a confession!

Acts 1:26 they choose Mathias not the teaching of Mathias!




————


Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep:

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Heb 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they care for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

1 Tim 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Gal 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you

1 John 2
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

That makes Paul and John spiritual fathers, pastors of our souls!

 

[theefaith]

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 mph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15


Matt 16:17-19

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

You can’t give the keys or authority or power to a confession!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, so send in you. (The apostles) posses the same power mission and authority as Christ!
Peter, the apostles and their successors!

Christ and His church are one. Acts 9:4 we must be taught by the holy church by the apostles! Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 Lk 24:27 Acts 2:42 Acts 8, eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 thee faith not read scripture and make you’re own faith!

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.