Good Friday?

[Webers_Home]

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Hello;

Passover is just around the corner so this seems an appropriate time to
begin discussing its events as they pertained to Christ back in his day.

I suggest that the best way to begin sleuthing the chronology of Christ's
crucifixion and resurrection is to first define what constituters a Day and
what constitutes a Night. The Bible does this for us so it's a no-brainer.

†. Gen 1:3-5 . . And God said: Let there be light-- and there was
light. God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light
from the darkness. God called the light Day and the darkness He
called Night.

In essence: Day and Night simply label two physical conditions-- the
absence of light, and/or the absence of darkness. Labeling those physical
conditions may seem like a superfluous detail, but when analyzing crucifixion
week in the New Testament, it's essential to keep those physical conditions
separate in regards to the Lord's burial and resurrection if one is to have any
hope of deducing the correct chronology.

†. Gen 1:14-18 . . God said: Let there be lights in the expanse of the
sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs
to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the
expanse of the sky to give light on the earth. And it was so. God
made two great lights-- the greater light to govern the day and the
lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set
them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern
the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness.

On the first day; God decreed Day as a condition of light; and Night as a
condition of darkness. Then in Gen 1:14-18, He further decreed that days on
the earth are when the sun is up; and nights on the earth are when the sun
is down. These rules occur so early in the Bible that they easily escape the
memories of Bible students as they slip into the reflexive habit of always
thinking of days as periods of one earth rotation of 24 hours. That's okay for
calendars but can lead to gross misunderstandings when interpreting biblical
schedules, predictions, and/or chronologies.

†. John 11:9 . . Jesus answered: are there not twelve hours in the
day? A man who walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this
world's light.

A day divided into twelve equal periods was regulated by what's known as
temporal hours; which vary in length in accordance with the time of year.
There are times of the year at Jerusalem's latitude when days on earth
consist of less than 12 normal hours of daylight, and sometimes more; but
when Jesus was here; the official number of hours was always 12 regardless.
I don't exactly know why the Jews of that era divided their work day into
twelve equal periods regardless of the seasons, but I suspect it was just a
convenient way to operate the government and conduct civil affairs;
including the Temple's activities (e.g. the daily morning and evening
sacrifice)

Anyway; the point is: it's best to comply with God's decrees and let days be
daytime and nights be nighttime; viz: Days are when the sun is up, and
Nights are when the sun is down.

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[Webers_Home]

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†. Matt 12:40 . . Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly
of the sea monster, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights
in the heart of the earth.

†. John 2:19-22 . . Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
The Jews therefore said: It took forty-six years to build this temple, and will
you raise it up in three days? But he was speaking of the temple of his body.
When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that
he said this.

The preponderance of New Testament evidence attests that Christ didn't
recover on a fourth day after the third was completely over, but on the third
day; viz: during the third day.

†. Matt 17:22-23 . . And while they were gathering together in Galilee, Jesus
said to them: The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of
men; and they will kill him, and he will be raised on the third day.

†. Mark 9:31 . . For he taught his disciples, and said unto them: The Son of
man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after
that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.

†. Luke 9:22 . . And he said: The Son of Man must suffer many things and
be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must
be killed and on the third day be roused.

†. Luke 24:12-24 . . Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending
over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away,
wondering to himself what had happened. Now that same day two of them
were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem.
They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. As
they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came
up and walked along with them; but they were kept from recognizing him.

. . . He asked them: What are you discussing together as you walk along?
They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked
him: Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that
have happened there in these days? What things? he asked.

. . . About Jesus of Nazareth; they replied. He was a prophet, powerful in
word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our
rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him;
but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And
what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.

†. Luke 24:41-46 . . And while they still could not believe it for joy and were
marveling, he said to them: Have you anything here to eat? And they gave
him a piece of a broiled fish; and he took it and ate it before them. Now he
said to them: These are my words which I spoke to you while I was still
with you, that all things which are written about me in the Law of Moses and
the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled. Then he opened their minds
to understand the Scriptures, and he said to them: Thus it is written, that
the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day

†. Acts 10:39-41 . . And we are witnesses of all the things He did both in the
land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And they also put him to death by
hanging him on a cross. God raised him up on the third day

†. 1Cor 15:4 . . He rose again the third day

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[Webers_Home]

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After Christ's burial, he wasn't seen alive till the first day of the week. (Matt
28:1, Mark 16:2, Luke 24:1, and John 20:1) which is the day following the
regular seventh-day sabbath. (Matt 28:1, Mark 16:1)

So, if we allow Sunday to be the first day of the week, and also the day upon
which Christ revived, it's pretty easy to work backwards and identify the
three days and three nights that Christ predicted at Matt 12:40.

The three days are Sunday, Saturday, and Friday. The three nights are
Saturday night, Friday night, and Thursday night.

Q: Is it certain that Christ didn't rise from the dead on a Saturday instead of
a Sunday?

A: According to Matt 17:22-23, Mark 9:31, Luke 9:22, Luke 24:12-24, Luke
24:41-46, Acts 10:39-41, and 1Cor 15:4, Christ revived on the third day.

The third day fell on the day that Christ met with two men traveling on the
road to Emmaus.

†. Luke 24:21 . .We had hoped that he was the one who was going to
redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.

According to the events recorded in Luke 24:1-21, the self same day that
Christ met with the men traveling to Emmaus is the day when the women
went out to the cemetery. That day was not the seventh day of the week; it
was the first.

†. Luke 24:1 . . On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the
women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.

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[Webers_Home]

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†. Matt 12:40 . . Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly
of the sea monster, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights
in the heart of the earth.

Christ was correct: Jonah's ordeal did last for three days. (Jon 1:17)

Jonah was alive for a time in the sea monster's tummy, but his prayer
reveals that he was not alive the whole time. For some of the time, Jonah
was in a place called sheol.

†. Jon 2:1-2 . .Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the stomach of
the fish, and he said: I called out of my distress to the Lord, and He
answered me. I cried for help from the depth of sheol.

Jonah sited sheol underground.

†. Jon 2:5-6 . .The great deep engulfed me, weeds were wrapped around my
head. I descended to the roots of the mountains.

Needless to say: the roots of the mountains are not located in the tummy of
a sea monster; they're situated deep in the earth; which is why Jonah said:
The earth with its bars was around me forever. (Jon 2:6)

Jonah's next words reveal that he underwent a resurrection.

†. Jon 2:6 . . Thou hast brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.

The Hebrew word for "pit" isn't a hole dug in the ground for a funeral, but
one that hunters dig for capturing animals. shachath is a common Old
Testament colloquialism for putrefaction, which is the decay that carrion
undergoes. It's used again at Psalm 16:10, which Peter said at Acts 2:23-32
refers to Christ.

But was Christ's corpse interred in the heart of the earth? No, it was interred
on the surface of the earth. How then was he in the heart of the earth? Well,
the same way that Jonah was in a place that he called the roots of the
mountains.

In other words: while the men's corpses reposed in their respective graves,
the men themselves parted company with their bodies and went down into
the earth. On the third day of their deaths; the men were re-united with
their bodies and came back to life.

Both men revived while inside their graves. Jonah was vomited out of his;
while apparently Christ strolled out.

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[Webers_Home]

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I don't think The Church ever meant for Friday to be historically accurate;
but rather, simply convenient for both the laity and the hierarchy. The thing
is: according to Ex 12:1-20, Passover and the Feast Of Unleavened Bread
are joined at the hip. In point of fact, Passover is supposed to be eaten on
the very first night of the feast. Well; according to Ex 12:16, that night is a
sabbath; meaning of course that Passover is a sabbath too; and I sincerely
believe it would mess with people's heads were the Church to attempt to
explain the ramifications of that to the average rank and file pew warmer
who knows little to nothing about Jewish holy days.

The trickiest part of the explanation would involve the timing of the weekly
seventh-day sabbath relative to the feast's special sabbath because it just so
happens that a regular seventh-day sabbath, and a special sabbath are in
such close proximity crucifixion week that it's very easy to mistake them as
one and the same sabbath.

Consecutive sabbaths like that happen on occasion due to Yom Kippur, the
Feast of Trumpets, and the Feast of Unleavened Bread being floating holy
days; thus requiring pious Jews to observe two sabbaths in a row the years
when special sabbaths run back to back with a weekly seventh-day sabbath.

Another difficulty associated with explaining the chronology of crucifixion
week is that the Lord's religious calendar was running a day ahead of the
local religious calendar. Christ consumed his lamb on the night of his arrest.
The Jews didn't eat theirs till the next night (John 18:28, John 19:14). Well;
I trust that Christ, being a prophet, was privy to the correct date; which is
very important seeing as how it is a serious sin to deviate from God's
instructions.

†. Num 9:12 . .They shall offer it in strict accord with the law of the
Passover sacrifice.

†. Deut 27:26 . . Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this Law and
observe them.

Apparently it was God's wishes that Christ be crucified on the very first day
of the feast; so it was necessary to allow the Jews to think they had a day to
go before the feast commenced or they wouldn't have crucified him on time.

†. Matt 26:3-5 . .Then the chief priests and the elders of the people
assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, and
they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him. But not during the
Feast-- they said --or there may be a riot among the people.

As it turned out; the day that Christ was crucified was the day that the Jews
were preparing for their own Passover meal by slaughtering lambs in the
afternoon and roasting them ready to eat by sundown (John 19:14, John
19:31 & John 19:42). Perfect timing. They killed their lambs, and the lamb
of God, both on the same day.

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[Webers_Home]

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Here's couple of important tips:

1• It's tempting to count the afternoon of Christ's burial as one of the days
as per Matt 12:40 and John 2:19-22, but don't do it. Wait until the Jews'
preparation for Passover comes to an end and they're ready to dine upon
their lambs before starting to tally the days and nights or your chronology
won't come out right. It's essential to leave crucifixion day set aside for the
slaughtering of lambs; including the one on the cross.

2• Avoid counting the three hours of darkness on the cross as one of the
nights. That won't work because Christ lived all the way through it. The
three days and nights predicted in Matt 12:40 are for when he was dead and
in the heart of the earth; not for when he was alive on the surface of the
earth.

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[zeke25]

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The three days are Sunday, Saturday, and Friday. The three nights are
Saturday night, Friday night, and Thursday night.

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Webers_Home,

There are a number of points you made that need clarifying. It would be much simpler to take one at a time. The three days cannot include Sunday. He rose from the dead prior to Sunday sunrise, therefore, He rose from the dead on Saturday night.

Zeke25

 

[Webers_Home]

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The three days cannot include Sunday. He rose from the dead prior to
Sunday sunrise, therefore, He rose from the dead on Saturday
night.

Had Christ risen from the dead before sunrise, his recovery would have
taken place at night; but according to Matt 17:22-23, Mark 9:31, Luke
24:41-46, Acts 10:39-41, and 1Cor 15:4 his recovery didn't take place
at night; rather, during day.

Below is a popular "proof text" among night-resurrection proponents.

†. John 20:1 . . Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark,
Mary Magdalene went to the tomb; and saw that the stone had been removed
from the entrance.

But that isn't the only information we're given. There's more.

†. Matt 28:1 . . After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week,
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

†. Mark 16:2-3 . .Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise,
they were on their way to the tomb and they asked each other: Who will roll
the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?

†. Luke 24:1 . . On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the
women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.

By combining Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John it's readily seen that the
women left home as the sun was coming up, and by the time they arrived at
the cemetery, it was full up. In other words: John doesn't say Magdalene
arrived in the dark; only that she went in the dark.

BTW: We're talking about holy women here; not kooks. Normal women
don't, as a rule, prowl graveyards at night. None I know anyway.

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[zeke25]

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Had Christ risen from the dead before sunrise, his recovery would have
taken place at night; but according to Matt 17:22-23, Mark 9:31, Luke
24:41-46, Acts 10:39-41, and 1Cor 15:4 his recovery didn't take place
at night; rather, during day.

Below is a popular "proof text" among night-resurrection proponents.

†. John 20:1 . . Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark,
Mary Magdalene went to the tomb; and saw that the stone had been removed
from the entrance.

But that isn't the only information we're given. There's more.

†. Matt 28:1 . . After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week,
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

†. Mark 16:2-3 . .Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise,
they were on their way to the tomb and they asked each other: Who will roll
the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?

†. Luke 24:1 . . On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the
women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.

By combining Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John it's readily seen that the
women left home as the sun was coming up, and by the time they arrived at
the cemetery, it was full up. In other words: John doesn't say Magdalene
arrived in the dark; only that she went in the dark.

BTW: We're talking about holy women here; not kooks. Normal women
don't, as a rule, prowl graveyards at night. None I know anyway.

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You must discern what day means in context each time it is used. Sometimes it refers to only to the daylight portion of a day, sometimes it is used to mean both the daylight and nighttime portion of a day, and other times it is used to refer to a time period that is more than one day. It is no different than the way we use “day” in these modern times.

Let’s look at your Scriptures.

Matthew 17:23 KJV, “And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.” This verse includes both the day and night time portions of a day, unlike Matthew 12:40 which specifies that the day and night times are used distinctly for daylight and nighttime.

Mt. 12:40 KJV, “For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” Since He died during the day time, that counts as day 1. The following night is night 1. By the time we get to night 3, all of the days have already been used up; therefore, we cannot possibly go into a 4th day. Mt. 12:40 specifically tells us that the count begins in the daytime and ends in the nighttime.

Mark 9:31, Luke 24:26, Acts 10:40, and 1 Corinthians 15:4 are the same as Mt. 17:23. The 3rd day in these Scriptures is Saturday, which begins on Saturday at sunrise and continues past sunset which brings us into

Saturday night. Now the requirement of 3 days has been met and the requirement of 3 days and 3 nights has also been met.

Here is what Matthew 28:1 one means:

Matthew 28:1 TIB, "After the sabbaths, at the dawning (Strong's G2020 epiphosko) into the first of the sabbaths, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the grave." "After the sabbaths" refers to the two sabbaths of (1) Passover and (2) the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which was an annual sabbath as well as a weekly sabbath. "At the dawning" means that there was evidence on the eastern horizon that the sun was soon to rise. In fact, the Greek word for dawning is epiphosko and its meaning is to begin to grow light. "Into the first of the sabbaths" means that the coming day was Sunday Abib 16 (Sheaf Wave Day*), and that it was the first day of the first week in which the counting of seven perfect* sabbaths was to begin. What all of this shows is that it was still Saturday night Abib 15, prior to Sunday Abib 16 sunrise.

Here is what Mark 16:2 means:

Mark 16:1-2 TIB, "1 And the sabbath passing, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Salome, bought spices so that coming they might anoint Him. 2 And very early (Strong's G4404 proi) on the first of the sabbaths, the sun rising, they came upon the tomb." "And the sabbath passing" means that it was the Saturday sabbath that was passing and sunrise was approaching but the new day had not yet dawned. "And very early on the first of the sabbaths" means that the coming day was Sunday Abib 16, and that it was the first day of the first week in which the counting of seven perfect sabbaths was to begin. But we need to look specifically at the Greek word proi that was translated as early. Proi is Strong's G4404 and it means the day-break watch. In other words it was still the fourth watch of the night, which in our time was approximately 3 AM to sunrise. There can be no mistaking that the Marys arrived at the tomb prior to Sunday sunrise on Abib 16. "The sun rising" means that there was evidence on the eastern horizon that the sun was soon to rise. What all of this shows is that it was still Saturday night Abib 15, prior to Sunday Abib 16 sunrise.

Here is what Luke 24:1-2 means:

Luke 24:1-2 KJV, "1 Now upon the first day of the week, very (Strong's G901 bathus) early (Strong's G3722 orthros) in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. 2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre." "Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning" really has no different meaning than Mark 16:1-2. "Very early in the morning" means that sunrise had not yet taken place. Actually, the two Greeks words inserted into the passage above mean deep dawn. Strong's G901 bathus means deep and G3722 orthros means dawn. Therefore, the beginning of this verse could have been translated as "Now upon the first of the week, at deep dawn, they came unto the sepulchre…". The meaning of deep dawn is that it was just beginning, and the evidence of the sun starting to rise was barely perceptible. In other words, it was the beginning of dawn, not the middle, not a full blown dawn, not the last few seconds prior to sunrise - instead, it was deep dawn.

Here is what John 20:1 means:

10.f. John 20:1 TIB, "But on the first of the sabbaths Mary Magdalene came early (Strong's G4404 proi) to the tomb, darkness yet being on it. And she saw the stone had been removed from the tomb." John's gospel helps us understand, perhaps more than the other three, exactly how this scene played out. But remember, as we are doing, all the Scriptures, the full counsel of God must be consulted, before we have the full story. John's gospel is not in opposition to the other gospels, it is complimentary to them. So, that the fours gospels together give us the complete picture that we need. "But on the first of the sabbaths" means that the coming day was Sunday Abib 16, and that it was the first day of the first week in which the counting of seven perfect sabbaths was to begin. "Came early" means that the sun had not risen and the new day had not yet officially begun. Remember that we just explained above that proi translated as early means the day-break watch. "Darkness yet being on it" leaves zero doubt about the position of the sun - it had not risen yet because it was still dark. This parallel passage in John affirms the exegesis that I have given all along in all the four gospels regarding the time markers used to describe the time of day in which the Marys arrived at the tomb.

The conclusion of the matter is not as you posed. The sun was not up when the women arrived at the tomb. John 20:1 is very clear about that. But, in fact, if you understand how people referred to time in the 1st century you would see that all 4 gospels are very clear that it was still dark at the tomb upon their arrival.

Here is an example of proper discernment of time markers in Scripture:

So, why call it the first day of the week, which is Sunday? Let us suppose that sunrise was at 6 AM. We are arriving at the tomb at 5:30 AM. Even though it is not officially Sunday yet, would it not be acceptable to express that it was the first day of the week, very early in the morning? What wording would you prefer? Possibly, the sun was rising and any minute the Sabbath would be over and we are now arriving at the tomb. Even today, if we got up to go fishing at 3 AM, we would say early in the morning we will go fishing, not at all meaning that it was sunrise yet. Likewise, if the following morning we got up at 3 AM because we got sick from eating rotten fish, we would tell our fishing buddy that we got up in the middle of the night. So, which is it? Is 3 AM the middle of the night or is it early in the morning? Both answers are acceptable, depending upon the circumstances. So, Luke is consistent with the other three gospels in describing an event that began on Saturday Abib 15.

Let us place ourselves into the first century. Was time told in minutes? This is a highly doubtful proposition, even ridiculous. What technical capabilities did they possess to enable them to estimate time in minutes? The answer is none that they could carry around with them - no wristwatches or cell phones. So, in a society that must use time markers, instead of a watch to indicate time, we can expect that one would say things such as, "Now on the first of the week, very early in the morning", or better still "Now on the first of the week, at deep dawn". And this would not mean that the previous day was officially over (because the sun had not risen yet), it would mean that a new day is coming on, or approaching.

But please remember this. This scene being described in these four gospels is not a static scene. The Marys were indeed arriving at the tomb prior to sunrise. At this time the stone was already rolled away and the tomb was empty. Even though they arrived prior to sunrise, it is easy to see that sunrise probably occurred while they were at the tomb. After all the scene is not static, it is active and moving, time is progressing. The resurrection must have taken place prior to sunrise and therefore it took place on the night of Saturday Abib 15.

The reality is however, that you must have a whole toolbox full of the proper tools in order to understand the timing of it all. Understanding “time markers” all by themselves is not enough.

Here are some more tools you will need:

1. Time markers in Scripture.
2. A day start is sunrise.
3. The correct definition of sunrise.
4. The correct definition of sunset.
5. The correct definition of between the evenings.
6. That even/evening is our modern day afternoon.
7. What a perfect week is.
8. How to count 7 perfect weeks to Shavuot.
9. The difference between Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread.
10. Passover is one day.
11. Feast of Unleavened Bread is 7 days.
12. When the word feast is used, you need to know what it means.
13. When the words unleavened feast are used, you need to know what that means.
14. Feast and Unleavened Feast do not always mean the same thing each time they are used.
15. The correct definition of a “high sabbath”.
16. The correct definition of preparation day.
17. Need to know that Rabbinic Judaism does not override Scriptures, it is the other way around.
18. Need to know that the Last Supper cannot be the Passover feast. If it were, then Christ has sinned.
19. Those who teach that the Last Supper was the Passover feast have blasphemed Christ 3 times over and need to know what those 3 blasphemies are.


All four gospels teach that the Last Supper was Wednesday Abib 12; that the crucifixion was Thursday Abib 13; Passover was Friday Abib 14; and the resurrection was Saturday night (Abib 15) prior to Sunday sunrise (Abib 16). If one finds a Scripture that one thinks teaches something different, that is because they have not the 19 tools, as listed above, at their disposal. Therefore, that one has misinterpreted the Scripture.

Zeke25

 

[Webers_Home]

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You must discern what day means in context each time it is used.

†. Jonah 1:17 . . And the Lord appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah, and
Jonah was in the stomach of the fish three days and three nights.

†. Matt 12:40 . . Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly
of the sea monster, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights
in the heart of the earth.

According to Gen 1:3-5, Gen 1:14-18, and John 11:9; Day is when the sun
is up, and Night is when the sun is down.

Had Christ risen from the dead before sunrise, his recovery would have
taken place at night; but according to Matt 17:22-23, Mark 9:31, Luke
24:41-46, Acts 10:39-41, and 1Cor 15:4 his recovery did not take place
at night; rather, during day.

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[zeke25]

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†. Jonah 1:17 . . And the Lord appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah, and
Jonah was in the stomach of the fish three days and three nights.

†. Matt 12:40 . . Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly
of the sea monster, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights
in the heart of the earth.

According to Gen 1:3-5, Gen 1:14-18, and John 11:9; Day is when the sun
is up, and Night is when the sun is down.

Had Christ risen from the dead before sunrise, his recovery would have
taken place at night; but according to Matt 17:22-23, Mark 9:31, Luke
24:41-46, Acts 10:39-41, and 1Cor 15:4 his recovery did not take place
at night; rather, during day.

==================================.

Webers_Home,

Webers said: Had Christ risen from the dead before sunrise, his recovery would have
taken place at night

zeke25: Yes, exactly, He rose from the dead during the night portion of the day. So, now you are admitting that you have no understanding of what a day is in the Bible. You can try to force the Scriptures to say what you want them to say, or you can submit to what they actually teach. That's your choice.

Gen 1:3-5, Gen 1:14-18, and John 11:9 do not teach that which you claim. Which denominational teaching are you trying to promote? If you refuse to answer this question, then you reveal yourself as one with a hidden agenda.

Zeke25

 

[Webers_Home]

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†. Luke 24:46 . . He said to them: Thus it is written, that the Christ should
suffer and rise again from the dead the third day

According to Luke 24:1-24, the third day fell on the first day of the week;
viz: a Sunday.

Well; seeing as how Gen 1:3-5 and Gen 1:14-18 declare it to be God's edict
that Night be when the sun is down, and Day be when the sun is up, and
Christ stated at John 11:9 that Day is no more than twelve hours; then it
seems clear enough to me that Christ rose from the dead on Sunday when the
sun was up rather than when the sun was down.

=================================

 

[zeke25]

The rest of my posts are addressed to those who may be reading or may decide to weigh in on this discussion. Webers_Home has confirmed that he has a hidden agenda and is unwilling to be straightforward. Furthermore, he is refusing to read my posts and , like a broken record, continues to promote the same heresy that a day refers only to the daylight portion of a day 100% of the time - common sense should tell a body otherwise, but there are Scriptures that confirm this as well which I will share here. In other words, W-H is refusing to engage in this conversation that he started. Fine, since he refuses to engage, I can still post to others who may be interested.

An example of W_H refusing to read my posts is his last statement about what Luke 24:1-24 means. He claims it means the resurrection occurred on Sunday. But in post #9 I gave an exegesis of Luke 24:1-2 that shows that the resurrection occurred on Saturday night, prior to Sunday sunrise. And I further explained that all four gospels are in agreement regarding a Saturday night resurrection.

Here are some verses that talk about the night time of a day.

Mark 14:30 KJV, “And [Yahoshua] saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.” Yahoshua identifies that “this day”, which began at sunrise on Wednesday Abib 12 and ends at sunrise on Thursday Abib 13, that Peter would deny Him. And when would Peter deny Him? He would deny Him during the night time of the day, prior to the coming sunrise.

Genesis 1:5 KJV, “…And the evening and the morning were the first day.” In other words, day 1 during creation week began with the creation activity during the daylight hours. Then evening came, which is the sunset time of the day. This continued all night, but it was still day 1. Then morning came, it was sunrise, and day 1 was over. So, day 1 of creation week (as well as all six days) had a daylight portion of the day and a night portion of the day.

Proverbs 7:9 KJV, “In the twilight (Strong’s H5399 nesheph), in the evening (Strong’s H3117 yowm and H6153 ereb), in the black (Strong’s H380 iyshown) and dark (Strong’s H653 aphelah) night (Strong’s H3915 layil)[.]” You will notice that both words - day and evening (yowm and ereb) are used together, but the KJV translators did not translate the word day, instead they ignored it. Yowm means day and there is no word “day” in the translation. Why would they make such an omission? They made this omission because they didn’t have a clue what it meant when used in conjunction with evening (ereb). And they didn’t know what ereb means either. Many translations follow the lead of the KJV translation on Proverbs 7:9. Here is what yowm and ereb used together means: I would translate these two words as “the after even time of the day” or “the after sundown time of the day” or “the night time of the day”.

There are other verses as well that show that a day can sometimes be referring to both the day light hours and the night time hours that follow.

Zeke25

 

[Webers_Home]

-
A normal chronology of evening and morning delineates night. However,
according to Gen 1:5, Gen 1:8, Gen 1:13, Gen 1:19, Gen 1:23, and Gen
1:31, evening and morning delineate day.

The Hebrew word for "evening" is ambiguous. It essentially means twilight.
However, there is no specific word for "afternoon" in the Bible, so sometimes
the Hebrew word for evening suffices for the hours between high noon and
sundown. Conversely, the Hebrew word for morning suffices for the hours
between sunrise and high noon; so that the combo "evening and morning"
used like that, delineate the hours of daytime rather than nighttime.

You can avoid the confusion by sticking with God's edicts at Gen 1:3-5 and
Gen 1:14-18 that Day is when the sun is up and Night is when the sun is
down. You can further avoid confusion by sticking with John 11:9 where
Christ's statement limits Days to periods of sunlight; and seeing as
how the predictions recorded at Matt 12:40 and John 2:19-22 are his
statements too, then I suggest we go with what he said at John 11:9 and
define the days of those predictions as periods of sunlight.

======================================

 

[zeke25]

“Evening” is not an ambiguous word at all in the Bible. Go to the thread at http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/20367-twilight-versus-between-the-evenings/ and you can see for yourself.

The reason afternoon is not in the Bible is because the biblical “evening” is identical to our modern day afternoon. This is one of the tools that is necessary for one to have to properly exegete the Scriptures.

Evening never means twilight anymore than our modern day afternoon means twilight. Twilight is after sunset, evening is prior to sunset.

Evening and morning are always defined by the context. Together they never mean day or night. Morning is from sunrise to high noon. Evening is from high noon to sunset. Morning can refer to the fact that the sun has just risen. Evening also has several other meanings regarding the 2nd half of the daylight hours. It can mean sunset, but not after sunset. See the link in the first paragraph.

John 11:9 certainly does not limit “day” to the daylight period. Only the biblically illiterate would make such a statement. The biblically illiterate refuse to think for themselves, nor do they inquire of the Holy Ghost. Instead, they defend a denominational teaching and refuse to identify that denomination because they have a hidden agenda. I have a pretty good guess which denomination that is. But an honest person would come forth and give the information for all to see.

Zeke25

The following is an extract from my writings on this subject:

HOW LONG WAS YAHOSHUA'S BODY DEAD

5.a. What does the Bible teach about how long Yahoshua the Christ will be in the heart of the earth when crucified until His resurrection? Let us look at all the Scriptures that give us time markers. Remember, we must consider the whole counsel of God, not just a Scripture or two taken out of context. The context is that all of the Scriptures addressing this subject should be considered as a whole. Some provide more complete information that others do not; such as, Matthew 12:40. But all of the information given by all the various Scriptures must be taken into account in order for us to receive a proper understanding of the topic at hand.

Matthew 12:40 KJV "For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." It does not get any clearer than this. It was three days and three nights. No other combination can qualify. The time marker of “day” in this verse refers to only the daylight portion of a day. The time marker of “night” in this verse refers to only the night portion of a day. Please note that since Christ Yahoshua died during the day, so when one counts three days and three nights, the count ends on the third night. The count does not end during the day.

Matthew 16:21 KJV, "From that time forth began [Yahoshua] to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day." Being raised on the third day necessitates that this time marker of “day” means both the daylight portion of a day followed by the night portion of the day as well (see Matthew 12:40 above). We know this because we accumulate information as we go through the Scriptures, we do not place the Scriptures in opposition to one another. Since He began His sojourn in the heart of the earth on the first day, how can he complete three days and three nights except that His sojourns ends during the third night. Therefore, this third night is part of the third day.

Matthew 17:23 KJV, "And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry.” As in Matthew 16:21, this third day means both the daylight portion of a day followed by the night portion of the day as well, since it has already been established that He will rise during the night time portion of a day.

Matthew 20:19 KJV, "And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.” As in Matthew 16:21, this third day means both the daylight portion of a day followed by the night portion of the day as well, since it has already been established that He will rise during the night time portion of a day.

Matthew 26:61 KJV, "And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days." Even though this was a false witness speaking, this part of his testimony was true. Refer to John 2:19-20 below. By cross referencing with Mark 14:58 below, we know that when Yahoshua said He would build the temple in three days that He was referring to the temple of His body. He was prophesying that He would rise from the dead on the third day (the nighttime portion of the third day).

Matthew 27:40 KJV, "And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the [execution stake].”

Matthew 27:62-64 KJV, "62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate. 63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. 64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first." Since His body died on preparation day, Thursday Abib 13, then after 3 days would be Saturday Abib 15. Thursday is day one, Thursday night is night one; Friday is day two, Friday night is night two; Saturday day is day three, Saturday night is night three. If one tries to count, for even one minute or one second, into Sunday Abib 16 then we are speaking of day four. Matthew 12:40 and Matthew 27:63 must be in agreement with each other. Matthew 12:40 does not support a fourth day of being in the heart of the earth.

5.b. But there is more to be said about Matthew 27:64. The time marker "be made sure until the third day" shows us that the Pharisees apparently believed Yahoshua's prophecy. One day and night had already passed. It was now the second day of His death and they obviously were not concerned about His body being stolen the first night. They were concerned about the day of Saturday both the day time hours and the night time hours that followed. So, when they made known their request to Pilate, it was Friday (Passover). When they requested the tomb be made secure until the third day, they were counting from Friday and going forward in time until Sunday. Yahoshua's prophecy was that He would rise sometime Saturday night, if the Pharisees secured the tomb until Sunday then they felt that they had it covered. In reality, this group of demonized Pharisees were looking to the power of Rome to stop the resurrection power of God. Ignorant men!

Mark 8:31 KJV, "And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.” The word day has several meanings and it must be determined from the context which of those meanings apply. We know that Matthew 12:40 sets the stage regarding the count of days and nights in which Yahoshua’s body will be dead. Since He died during the daylight hours, then He must have risen during the nighttime hours of a 24-hour day. Matthew 12:40 uses the word day to mean the daylight portion of a day only.

Mark 9:31 KJV, "For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.” As in Matthew 16:21, this third day means both the daylight portion of a day followed by the night portion of the day as well, since it has already been established that He will rise during the night time portion of a day.

Mark 10:34 KJV, "And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.” As in Matthew 16:21, this third day means both the daylight portion of a day followed by the night portion of the day as well, since it has already been established that He will rise during the night time portion of a day.

Mark 14:58 KJV, "We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands."

Mark 15:29 KJV, "And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days[.]"

Luke 9:22 KJV, "Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day."

Luke 18:33 KJV, "And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again."

Luke 24:7 KJV, "Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again."

Luke 24:46 KJV, "And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day[.]"

John 2:19-20 KJV, "19 [Yahoshua] answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?" Yahoshua, of course, was speaking of the temple of His body that He would raise up.

Acts 10:40 KJV, "Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly[.]"

1 Corinthians 15:4 KJV, "And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures[.]"

5.c. There is a possible problem with Matthew 27:63 wherein the Pharisees are reported to have said "after (Strong's 3326 meta) three days". My concern is about the word after. Let us assume that the Greek word meta was the valid choice that the translators had to use. This phrase means to us in modern day English that Christ was not going to rise on the third day, but after the third day, which is the fourth day. If this is exactly what the Pharisees spoke and meant, then they were lying to Pilate. These Pharisees have already shown themselves to be men of low degree without integrity, without the love of God, and actually full of hate for God. So, if they embellished their story to Pilate to suit their own desires, that is not hard for us to believe. What is important for us today, as we study these Scriptures, is not to be confused and believe that we have a verse that claims that Christ will rise on the fourth day, when we know that is not true. At the most we have a Scripture that shows the Pharisees claimed that Christ said the fourth day, when in actuality He never said anything other than the third day.

Zeke25

 

[Webers_Home]

-

“Evening” is not an ambiguous word at all in the Bible.

I didn't say evening is ambiguous; I said the Hebrew word for evening is
ambiguous.

Technically 'ereb (eh'-reb) means dusk; which the Oxford dictionary defines
as the darker stage of twilight.

Well; chronologically, from dusk till morning defines night; but in the first
chapter of Genesis it clearly defines day, which, strictly speaking, would
mean that days are dark.

Do you understand this as I have explained it to you; or might you require
additional assistance?

=====================================

 

[zeke25]

-

I didn't say evening is ambiguous; I said the Hebrew word for evening is
ambiguous.

Technically 'ereb (eh'-reb) means dusk; which the Oxford dictionary defines
as the darker stage of twilight.

Well; chronologically, from dusk till morning defines night; but in the first
chapter of Genesis it clearly defines day, which, strictly speaking, would
mean that days are dark.

Do you understand this as I have explained it to you; or might you require
additional assistance?

=====================================

W_H,

What I understand is that you refuse to identify your denomination. And, therefore, that your teachers have you in a mind trap and you are unable to understand the subject you so arrogantly espouse.

Zeke25

For those who may be looking on, please note that Webers_Home has little or no concern for the Bible, nor does he understand it. He continues to ignore sound Bible teaching and definitions. So, what is his authority?

Very simple, his authority is his hidden teachers and even more than that, he actually appeals to the Oxford dictionary. Now there is a gem for you, we now have a worthless Bible in our hands. However, Oxford can straighten it all out for us. Oh happy day. We don't need the Bible, we don't need Christ, all we need is Oxford. How in the world did Christ ever make it when He walked among us without Oxford around to help Him out?

Zeke25

 

[Webers_Home]

-

he actually appeals to the Oxford dictionary.

I speak the English language, my Bibles are translated into the English
language, and most everybody here on the forum composes their posts in
the English language. Therefore I think it is sensible to utilize a standard to
define English words lest we fall prey to a Tower of Babel syndrome.

†. 1Cor 14:19-20 . . In the church I would rather speak five words with my
understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a
tongue. Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice
be babes, but in understanding be mature.

=========================================

 

[zeke25]

-

I speak the English language, my Bibles are translated into the English
language, and most everybody here on the forum composes their posts in
the English language. Therefore I think it is sensible to utilize a standard to
define English words lest we fall prey to a Tower of Babel syndrome.

†. 1Cor 14:19-20 . . In the church I would rather speak five words with my
understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a
tongue. Brethren, do not be children in understanding; however, in malice
be babes, but in understanding be mature.

=========================================

W_M,

Like I said, you're caught in a mind trap. You actually believe that an English dictionary is a reliable source to obtain definitions of biblical words and doctrines. Regarding your quote of 1 Corinthians - it only condemns you.

Who are your teachers?

zeke25
W_M,
We could go back to the beginning. If you ever want to understand the chronology of crucifixion week, you are going to have to change your preconceived notions. A day is not just the day light time of the day. Day has multiple meanings. I have showed you the Scriptures, why do you ignore the Scriptures? You have failed to challenge even one Scripture that I have shared with you about that which day means.

Also, ereb/opsios/evening are defined by the Bible, not by a dictionary or even a lexicon. You're going to have to let go of your false notions about what evening means. Why have you failed to object to even one Scripture I have shared with you on this? Repeating the Scriptures, like a broken record, that you believe define evening, does not define it at all. I have shown the Scriptures that define what evening really means. Bring a valid objection against those Scriptures and I will continue to dialogue with you.

And what is this obstinate holdout you have about identifying your teachers' doctrine? Are you ashamed of them?

Zeke25

 

[heretoeternity]

Zeke you raise some good Biblical points on this subject....
"Good friday" and "easter" are non Biblical and are man made creations brought to us by the pagan based Roman church, along with a lot of other counter, non Biblical teachings and doctrines.