Grace First

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marks

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If you can't see what I wrote in the OP I don't expect you will search the bible though.

Is it necessary or useful or beneficial to share your low expectations of others? Can we avoid this kind of posting? What would you call this? Contempt?

I point to this to appeal to your better nature, in the hope that goodness will follow.

Much love!
 
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amadeus

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Nevermind the above. This answers well for itself.

Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

It's perfectly plain that athiests aren't included.

You may wish to reconsider.

Much love!
Yes, a real atheist with no interest in looking beyond where he is will not be included. But... we should not be too quick to decide a person has no hope nor any real desire for God simply because he calls himself an atheist or an agnostic or any of the other various names people may apply to themselves. Sometimes they may have been waiting for just you [without even really knowing it themselves] and the Word God will put in your mouth just for them.

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear" I Peter 3:15
 

Philip James

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But that is only in believing in Him. How does that apply to the athiest?

The athiest does not believe in God, therefore does not fear Him, and whatever may pass for works of righteousness on their own part, outside of God, are truly defiled works, and not works of actual righteousness.

Much love!

Everyone who loves is born of God

Peace!
 

VictoryinJesus

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God is able to make us stand, 2 Corinthians 12:9 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

Yes, He is able to make us stand! 1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Amazing 2 Corinthians 10:7-10 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's. [8] For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:That I may not seem as if I would terrify you by letters. For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

Yet...Greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Acts 3:16
[16] And his name through faith in his name has made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
...2 Corinthians 12:9 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."
 

WalterandDebbie

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God is able to make us stand, 2 Corinthians 12:9 9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

After reading the above post, and amen to it again, I was thinking of the scripture that I used in that post, it is all about His Grace upon Grace that has brought us this for in life. And every time that I think about that scripture His Grace get better and better. :)
 
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Helen

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But that is only in believing in Him. How does that apply to the athiest?

The athiest does not believe in God, therefore does not fear Him, and whatever may pass for works of righteousness on their own part, outside of God, are truly defiled works, and not works of actual righteousness.

Much love!

That is only what we can see in them now...but the end is not yet.
We have not seen "the end of the matter" for anyone ...yet.

"There is hope of a tree...." a great verse in Job...
...
" Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
"

Rom 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. "

We ourselves could not have believed if it wasn't so...

And I'm still believing for the atheists that I know... :)
 
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farouk

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Rom 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. "
We ourselves could not have believed if it wasn't so...
Good verse; we do indeed need to stay humble.
 

marks

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That is only what we can see in them now...but the end is not yet.
We have not seen "the end of the matter" for anyone ...yet.

"There is hope of a tree...." a great verse in Job...
...
" Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
"

Rom 12:3 "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. "

We ourselves could not have believed if it wasn't so...

And I'm still believing for the atheists that I know... :)
I agree with everything you say here, nonetheless do we say that the athiest pleases God and is accepted by God?

It's one thing to hope with all our beings that it will be so, that God will accept them and receive them, though they never believe.

My sister. My son.

But when God tells us that we can only receive by receiving in faith what then? The command of the Gospel is Be Believing. That is what we must obey.

Much love!
 

atpollard

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If a person acts by his/her conscience to do that which is pleasing to God...then that person is operating inside the grace of God...whether that person is a theist or not.

God is not a respecter of beliefs or persons. (Remember He is God and can do as He chooses)
Balderdash.

[John 3:16-18 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[John 14:6 NASB] 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

[Acts 4:12 NASB] 12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
 

marks

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we should not be too quick to decide a person has no hope nor any real desire for God simply because he calls himself an atheist
I'm not talking about "giving up hope on someone who may just be confused."

Rather, I'm discussing the Biblical teaching towards the one who refuses and denies the existance of God his entire life long, are we then going to say that God saves him regardless? It seems that some do say this, but I do not find that in the Bible.

What I find in the Bible is that those who receive from God, more than the common grace given to all men, that is, sunlight, rain, so forth, but to receive rebirth, to receive salvation, to receive sanctification, to receive eternal and everlasting life, what we receive, we receive through faith, by believing, and not any other way.

Much love!
 

Episkopos

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Balderdash.

[John 3:16-18 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[John 14:6 NASB] 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

[Acts 4:12 NASB] 12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Grace on one level (universal) doesn't negate grace on another level (for holiness). People do that...not God.
This response of yours is to confuse entering into Christ now...with God's mercy later. It is also to confuse what grace is. The bible doesn't say that anyone who is not born again will go to hell. That is a religious dogma created by men. God has made a 2 tier process on purpose to weed out the religious ones.

We will all be judged by our works...not our beliefs. We will be judged by what we have been given. But the religious will never admit that. These seek a belief system for advantage and personal justification leading to security for themselves. But that is a trap.
 
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Helen

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I agree with everything you say here, nonetheless do we say that the athiest pleases God and is accepted by God?

It's one thing to hope with all our beings that it will be so, that God will accept them and receive them, though they never believe.

My sister. My son.

But when God tells us that we can only receive by receiving in faith what then? The command of the Gospel is Be Believing. That is what we must obey.

Much love!

Hey there.

What I believe is too complicated to respond to here.
I am just reminding you that I am a believer in Colossians 1 19-20

19 "For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell.
20 And, having made peace through the blood of His cross,
by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. "

I side step debates. :)
 

atpollard

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Grace on one level (universal) doesn't negate grace on another level (for holiness). People do that...not God.
This response of yours is to confuse entering into Christ now...with God's mercy later. It is also to confuse what grace is. The bible doesn't say that anyone who is not born again will go to hell. That is a religious dogma created by men. God has made a 2 tier process on purpose to weed out the religious ones.

We will all be judged by our works...not our beliefs. We will be judged by what we have been given. But the religious will never admit that. These seek a belief system for advantage and personal justification leading to security for themselves. But that is a trap.

[John 3:1-21 NLT]
1 There was a man named Nicodemus, a Jewish religious leader who was a Pharisee. 2 After dark one evening, he came to speak with Jesus. "Rabbi," he said, "we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are evidence that God is with you." 3 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God."

4 "What do you mean?" exclaimed Nicodemus. "How can an old man go back into his mother's womb and be born again?" 5 Jesus replied, "I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. 7 So don't be surprised when I say, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit."

9 "How are these things possible?" Nicodemus asked. 10 Jesus replied, "You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don't understand these things? 11 I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won't believe our testimony. 12 But if you don't believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.

16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. 18 "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."


  • I choose to believe that God and only God makes dead people alive ... and Jesus Christ is the only Way, Truth and Life through which He accomplishes this miraculous transformation.
 
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Episkopos

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[John 3:1-21 NLT]
1 There was a man named Nicodemus, a Jewish religious leader who was a Pharisee. 2 After dark one evening, he came to speak with Jesus. "Rabbi," he said, "we all know that God has sent you to teach us. Your miraculous signs are evidence that God is with you." 3 Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God."

4 "What do you mean?" exclaimed Nicodemus. "How can an old man go back into his mother's womb and be born again?" 5 Jesus replied, "I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. 6 Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. 7 So don't be surprised when I say, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can't tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can't explain how people are born of the Spirit."

9 "How are these things possible?" Nicodemus asked. 10 Jesus replied, "You are a respected Jewish teacher, and yet you don't understand these things? 11 I assure you, we tell you what we know and have seen, and yet you won't believe our testimony. 12 But if you don't believe me when I tell you about earthly things, how can you possibly believe if I tell you about heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.

16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. 18 "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."


  • I choose to believe that God and only God makes dead people alive ... and Jesus Christ is the only Way, Truth and Life through which He accomplishes this miraculous transformation.

Wilfull disobedience and unbelief is not to be equated with they who have never been given the opportunity to learn of Jesus Christ.

In your religion would you condemn to hell a young girl who honoured her Hindu parents (as God commands she ought to) and then dies before a Western preacher can reach her remote village so as to even hear about Jesus?

Just one case in a million.

At what precise age does a person burn in hell who dies before coming to the same conclusion as someone who has lived much longer and seen much more?
 

amadeus

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Wilfull disobedience and unbelief is not to be equated with they who have never been given the opportunity to learn of Jesus Christ.

In your religion would you condemn to hell a young girl who honoured her Hindu parents (as God commands she ought to) and then dies before a Western preacher can reach her remote village so as to even hear about Jesus?

Just one case in a million.

At what precise age does a person burn in hell who dies before coming to the same conclusion as someone who has lived much longer and seen much more?
"Much is given... much is required"

"according to your faith..."

This is why the final judgment against anyone never belongs to us. There is too much that we do not know!