GRACE ... is more than unmerited favor!

[Eternally Grateful]

You are conflating salvation and grace, a gift and a reward.

I don't agree that your existence is a matter of grace. That sets the baseline for grace so low that no one could escape it. But, the folks in Noah's day DID escape God's grace. Why? They chose to walk a different way. The way they chose was evil, and because of that evil, God destroyed them, showing literally NO grace. Noah walked with God. He found grace. Why? He found grace because he chose to listen to YHVH and walk according to his instructions, whatever they were. Favor from YHVH is given to his obedient children.

If YHVH had saved any of the evil people, he would have been a respecter of persons. THAT would be unmerited favor.

Now, someone can be the worst sinner ever. When they say, "I surrender," to YHVH, they are as saved as they are ever going to get. It was free. They did not earn it. They asked for it, and got it.

If that person wants to walk in the favor of YHVH, obedience is the key. They can claim that they are in grace because they exist. Or, they can claim they are walking in grace because they have a huge church and world-wide ministry. The meaning of the word is being lost.

Titus 2 says that grace teaches us to walk godly in this wicked world. It does NOT say grace teaches us we can ignore God's instructions because Jesus saved us.

The definition of "reward" is something that is earned. Jesus is returning with "rewards" as well as free salvation, even for the new convert. Salvation is free. Rewards are earned. Free admission to a school is useless if we don't read the instructions.

A Crown of Righteousness is not going to be given to disobedient children.

Salvation is not a reward. It is of Grace we have been saved.

You deserve hell, In fact, You deserve to not even live, God had every right to snap his fingers and wipe mankind off the face of the earth. so the very fact he allowed you to be born and to continue to live after you sin is of grace.

And I would be very careful in what you say, If you claim obedience is required to walk in grace and be saved, You are teaching works, and teaching that grace is a reward, which it is not..

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You sound like you believe after being born again we still retain the sin nature of Adam. We don't

You don't understand the word impute, which is used by a myriad of scholars for hundreds of years. So now you are distorting what you think I know and believe. Please spare me. If you don't like the word, simply don't use it. Don't try to discredit my knowledge and beliefs.

The nature that Jesus gives us is real, not the old man of Adam's glossed over with Jesus' righteousness

Absolutely, we are a new creature. Where did I imply otherwise?

Don't you know that Jesus came to free us from Adam's sin and to destroy the works of the devil in us?

Please stop. First century ladies did not behave this way. You are now being disrespectful with your false accusations.
Where is your grace?
How about if I meet you half way and agree that righteousness wasn't imputed to you?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The "righteousness of Christ ... is imputed to [believers] — that is, treated as if it were theirs through faith." It is on the basis of Jesus' righteousness that God accepts humans.

What I objected to specifically was "as if." That to me is what is said by those who believe in just a covering, like the OT sacrifices, which you did mention.

Yes our spiritual nature is in Christ so we are righteous as well as possessing a whole list of attributes.

I agree.

"Imputation is based on Old Testament sacrificial structures seen in places such as the Day of Atonement, where the sins of the people are transferred to a scapegoat.

Correct: Old Testament, specifically before the law as to Abraham, and after the law as to David, Romans 4 and Romans 5. But you seemed to add born again Christians. Did you mean to? You just got defensive instead of pointing out specifically what I wrote. You act like you agree with everything I said and taking offense that I can't see that you are. Correct me if I'm wrong. What you said about imputed is to mankind; but their is a huge difference when we are born again in Christ. You have not addressed the difference, but still using the terms for the OT saints. Understand? I want a discussion, not taking offense.

Please stop. First century ladies sid not behave this way. You are now being disrespectful with your false accusations.
Where is your grace?
How about if I meet you half way and agree that righteousness wasn't imputed to you?

I was speaking to Enoch and marks also and was addressing also what they have said, who liked your posts and not mine (no surprise. LOL)

 

[Happy Trails]

Salvation is not a reward. It is of Grace we have been saved.

You deserve hell, In fact, You deserve to not even live, God had every right to snap his fingers and wipe mankind off the face of the earth. so the very fact he allowed you to be born and to continue to live after you sin is of grace.

And I would be very careful in what you say, If you claim obedience is required to walk in grace and be saved, You are teaching works, and teaching that grace is a reward, which it is not..

Once again, you conflate "salvation" and "grace," and "gifts" and rewards."
The grace that allows you to exist is completely unremarkable. It is the first grade kind of grace.

The grace that empowers requires discipline and diligence. But, as is so often the case, you want to blend all good things together in one pile and all bad things in another.

No. It does NOT require works to be saved. It takes works to grow. It takes works to walk in grace. That is what walking is! Walking is the works associated with obedience to God. It is not simply walking around. Sanctification is a progressive work in the heart of the believer. The Torah is college for believers. Grace is what teaches us to obey the instructions God gave us for our works.

I would be careful if I were teaching people that grace means you don't have to obey the Father. I would be careful if I were teaching that accepting Jesus means I can do whatever I want and claim that the Holy Spirit is leading me. I'm not teaching either one. I leave that up to the self-proclaimed followers of Jesus.

Noah found grace because he walked with Elohim.

Why didn't everyone who died find the same grace?

Explain to me.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

What I objected to specifically was "as if." That to me is what is said by those who believe in just a covering, like the OT sacrifices, which you did mention.

That was a quote from Wikipedia, that I agreed with. We are justified by faith, credited with righteousness "as if" we fulfilled the requirements of the Law. But we didn't, Christ did.

Correct: Old Testament, specifically before the law as to Abraham, and after the law as to David, Romans 4 and Romans 5. But you seemed to add born again Christians. Did you mean to?

"In Reformed theology, "imputation" most often refers to the legal (or forensic) crediting of Jesus’ perfect righteousness to believers by faith for justification (another important theological term). Imputation communicates that believers are made right with God (or justified) on the basis of the obedience of Christ (both active and passive—again, key theological terms). By Jesus’ active obedience he meets the demands of perfect righteousness God has always required of humanity. By Jesus’ passive obedience, he pays the penalty due to humanity on account of sin. Additionally, beyond the imputation of Christ’s full obedience to believers, imputation may also refer to the counting of believers’ sins to Christ as the sin-bearing substitute.
Imputation thus refers to the way that Jesus’ full obedience that meets the demands for what is required for peace with God can count on behalf of his people. Imputation describes the legal means by which our perfect representative’s actions can benefit us by faith. Apart from the perfect obedience of Christ imputed to us, we are not able to meet the demands of a holy, just, and perfect God. Imputation is therefore at the heart of the gospel message: the requirements for acceptance with God cannot be met by sinful humanity, but the eternal Son of God—who condescended and took on flesh for our sake—has accomplished in the likeness of sinful flesh what sinful humanity could never do. Indeed, Adam’s first sin is imputed to all humanity descending from him naturally, and therefore Adam’s sin has legally binding consequences for all who are born “in him.” Likewise—but better—Christ’s entire righteousness has legal consequences for all those who are “in him,” and this is explained by means of imputation (cf. Rom. 5:12–21). The Bible’s “in him” language also points to the importance of union with Christ, which is another key piece of the puzzle that explains how Christ’s full righteousness benefits believers (on which see the helpful discussion of John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion 3.1.1).
To conclude, the Westminster Shorter Catechism captures the essence of imputation for justification well:
Q. What is justification?
A. Justification is an act of God’s free grace, wherein he pardons all our sins, and accepts us as righteous in his sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and received by faith alone. [Italics added; edited for style.]"
By Brandon Crowe
Maybe you have a problem with Calvin? Luther taught it too. I believe Augustine did ... if you are Catholic.

I was speaking to Enoch and marks also and was addressing also what they have said, who liked your posts and not mine (no surprise. LOL)

Mark and I usually agree, Enoch sometimes. It doesn't matter, we aren't taking sides. We agree that we are justifed by His Grace through faith ... and this faith itself is a gift.
Let's just agree that everything good comes from God and we did not earn it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Once again, you conflate "salvation" and "grace," and "gifts" and rewards."

Why do you keep mentioning the term rewards. rewards has never left my mouth.

The grace that allows you to exist is completely unremarkable. It is the first grade kind of grace.

Yet without it You would not be here, nor would I. No one would be.. So I would not shove it away so quickly

The grace that empowers requires discipline and diligence. But, as is so often the case, you want to blend all good things together in one pile and all bad things in another.

Ah discipline. So we need to earn this grace by our own power. by doing something. And you want to try to say I am the one wiht the issue.

No. It does NOT require works to be saved. It takes works to grow. It takes works to walk in grace. That is what walking is! Walking is the works associated with obedience to God. It is not simply walking around. Sanctification is a progressive work in the heart of the believer. The Torah is college for believers. Grace is what teaches us to obey the instructions God gave us for our works.

excuse me sir but we are talking about salvation and justification. Sanctification has never crossed my lips in this conversation. I request you stop assuming things and just stick to the conversation please?

Sanctification still requires grace. You still do not deserve to walk this earth. Let alone learn to grow from the spirit and Christ. But lets stick to the discussion ok?

I would be careful if I were teaching people that grace means you don't have to obey the Father.

And there yu go putting words in my mouth again, I never stated such a thing, what I stated is we will not be saved by our works. If you think we have to work to earn or maintain salvation, then you sir are the one who needs to be careful. You also need to be careful to accuse someone of saying they they have never said. I have to love when peope talk about obedience, then insist on bearing false witness, Last I saw that was a sin.

I would be careful if I were teaching that accepting Jesus means I can do whatever I want and claim that the Holy Spirit is leading me. I'm not teaching either one. I leave that up to the self-proclaimed followers of Jesus.

Noah found grace because he walked with Elohim.

Why didn't everyone who died find the same grace?

Explain to me.

Never even said anything remotely close to this, Once again, You are bearing false witness, You hurting your own argument and your own testimony. I would suggest you stop trying to assume things, And stick to the point at hand.

 

[marks]

Yet without it You would not be here, nor would I. No one would be.. So I would not shove it away so quickly

Creation itself is an enormous act of grace.

Much love!

 

[Happy Trails]

Why do you keep mentioning the term rewards. rewards has never left my mouth.

I asked a question which addresses the issue at hand:

"Noah found grace because he walked with Elohim.

Why didn't everyone who died find the same grace?"



Explain why Noah found grace and everyone else drowned.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I asked a question which addresses the issue at hand:

"Noah found grace because he walked with Elohim.

Why didn't everyone who died find the same grace?"



Explain why Noah found grace and everyone else drowned.

Noah found grace because he BELIEVED in God. His FAITH in God caused him to WALK with God up to and including BUILDING THE ARK

His WORK did not save him. HIS FAITH DID

His WORK was a RESULT of his FAITH.

You sit here and tell me you do not preach salvation by works. But it seems to be all you are talking about. WORKS WORKS WORKS.

The pharisees did that. And crucified Christ because Christ told them their works were meaningless..

 

[Robert Gwin]

Grace is kindness and I did say that, but that is not all it is. Grace is without measure and so to put it on trial with a popular vote would be cheap. The scriptures describe what Grace is and how it transcends into our lives as blessings. We are blessed in many ways by the love of GOD.

We believe that the original word leaned toward unmerited, hence the reason why it it translated undeserved kindness in the NWT, however I would have personally left it out as it is deroggatory to God in my opinion, it makes it seem as if He haughtily does not care. We believe Him to be love, and therefore I believe that kindness is the best rendering without any add ons. Grace is definitely misunderstood, that is why I use the easily understood modern rendering kindness when I speak to others and it is included in the verse or conversation.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

We believe that the original word leaned toward unmerited, hence the reason why it it translated undeserved kindness in the NWT, however I would have personally left it out as it is deroggatory to God in my opinion, it makes it seem as if He haughtily does not care. We believe Him to be love, and therefore I believe that kindness is the best rendering without any add ons. Grace is definitely misunderstood, that is why I use the easily understood modern rendering kindness when I speak to others and it is included in the verse or conversation.

So when you pray to Jehovah, part of your prayer contains praise and thankfulness for His "kindness - "nothing more and nothing less"?
And then your description of Jesus would be what, just kind? Or do you attribute the source of kindness from Jesus? Probably not, you would say the Father is the source of Grace and Jesus is just being obedient to deliver whatever the Father says and so Jesus doesn't get the thanks. ?
Jesus is the radiance of God, full of Grace. He is the expression of Grace that is the Life (physically and spiritually), the Light, the Way, the Truth, the Good Shepherd, the Vine, the Bread of Life, the Resurrection, who is Holy, Love, Peace, Joy, Patient, Kind, Gentle, Good, Faithful, Sovereign, and the ALL Mighty God who provides us with all our needs. And soon the world of the ungodly will experience His Judgment and wrath.
My main objection is that JW's do not recognize Jesus for who He truly is nor do you pray to or thank Him. You thank the Father for the Son, but don't directly worship, thank or praise Jesus with the honor and capacity that 2.64 billion Christians do. Why? Because you think He is Michael, an angel and angels are not to be worshipped. I think that will be Jesus first order of revelation to all JW's, to introduce you to Michael.

 

[Happy Trails]

Noah found grace because he BELIEVED in God. His FAITH in God caused him to WALK with God up to and including BUILDING THE ARK

His WORK did not save him. HIS FAITH DID

His WORK was a RESULT of his FAITH.

You sit here and tell me you do not preach salvation by works. But it seems to be all you are talking about. WORKS WORKS WORKS.

The pharisees did that. And crucified Christ because Christ told them their works were meaningless..

Noah found grace because he BELIEVED in God. His FAITH in God caused him to WALK with God up to and including BUILDING THE ARK

Without hesitation, you literally changed the meaning of what is written, and are now building your philosophical argument on the BASIS of that change. That philosophy undermines the facts regarding WHY obedience is CONSTANTLY discussed in the NT.
It still does not address, "why didn't everyone who died find the same grace?"
Colossians 2:8

His WORK did not save him. HIS FAITH DID

He knew he was already saved. His motivation for walking with YHVH was love. 1 John 5:3
Noah's motivation was pleasing his Elohim.
The obsession with "what gets ya saved" is fascinating to me. It presents all motivation as some kind of transaction for salvation. If you are doing stuff to get saved, it's all about you. If you are doing what the Father says pleases him, it's all about him.
But, I still want to know, "why didn't everyone who died find the same grace?"

His WORK was a RESULT of his FAITH.

Modern Christianity espouses that "faith" is a mental acknowledgement of their accepted list of facts about Jesus. However, in exactly the same way they do not grasp "walk," they destroy the meaning of "faith." Faith is the motivation for the walk. My walk is the outward manifestation of my faith. If I have no walk, I have no faith. "Faithfulness" is about reliability. Faith without works is dead. So, yeah. his work was the result of his faith.
But, "why didn't everyone who died find the same grace?"

You sit here and tell me you do not preach salvation by works. But it seems to be all you are talking about. WORKS WORKS WORKS.

I sit here and tell you that I got past the salvation issue 40 years ago. I have never doubted that I am just as saved now as I ever was, and unless I do something extraordinary and foolish, I am sure I will continue being just as saved. You might want to review the NT regarding "obedience" and "works." Literally, HUNDREDS of verses in the NT talk about obedience and works. The difference is "what is being obeyed?"
Romans 6 tells us that we should not sin, that we should obey God, and that we should NOT obey the man-made regulations that the religious leadership imposes on us.

There are only TWO KINDS of "walking." I walk according to the instructions the Father gave, or I don't. I am trying to please my Father, or I am not. I am obeying the instructions that introduce the pollution of idols, or I stick to what the Father said to do. I do EXACTLY what Jesus did, or I don't bother even trying.

Romans 8 The carnal mind cannot please God. Why? It WILL NOT and CANNOT submit to the authority of YHVH's Law. The carnal mind cannot please God.

But, I still don't know from you, "why didn't everyone find the same grace?"

You claim grace is "unmerited." Then, why did those people drown?


The pharisees did that. And crucified Christ because Christ told them their works were meaningless..

No. The Pharisees added to the Law. Salvation was never an issue.
Jesus said they added to the Law and taught the traditions of men as if they were the Torah.
In Matthew 23:1-4, Jesus tells His disciples to obey what the Pharisees say when they sit in Moses' seat. But, don't follow the things they do because that is what they are adding to the Law. When they sit in Moses' seat, they are reading the Law. Jesus said to obey THAT. He certainly did.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Noah found grace because he BELIEVED in God. His FAITH in God caused him to WALK with God up to and including BUILDING THE ARK

Without hesitation, you literally changed the meaning of what is written, and are now building your philosophical argument on the BASIS of that change. That philosophy undermines the facts regarding WHY obedience is CONSTANTLY discussed in the NT.
It still does not address, "why didn't everyone who died find the same grace?"
Colossians 2:8

His WORK did not save him. HIS FAITH DID

He knew he was already saved. His motivation for walking with YHVH was love. 1 John 5:3
Noah's motivation was pleasing his Elohim.
The obsession with "what gets ya saved" is fascinating to me. It presents all motivation as some kind of transaction for salvation. If you are doing stuff to get saved, it's all about you. If you are doing what the Father says pleases him, it's all about him.
But, I still want to know, "why didn't everyone who died find the same grace?"

His WORK was a RESULT of his FAITH.

Modern Christianity espouses that "faith" is a mental acknowledgement of their accepted list of facts about Jesus. However, in exactly the same way they do not grasp "walk," they destroy the meaning of "faith." Faith is the motivation for the walk. My walk is the outward manifestation of my faith. If I have no walk, I have no faith. "Faithfulness" is about reliability. Faith without works is dead. So, yeah. his work was the result of his faith.
But, "why didn't everyone who died find the same grace?"

You sit here and tell me you do not preach salvation by works. But it seems to be all you are talking about. WORKS WORKS WORKS.

I sit here and tell you that I got past the salvation issue 40 years ago. I have never doubted that I am just as saved now as I ever was, and unless I do something extraordinary and foolish, I am sure I will continue being just as saved. You might want to review the NT regarding "obedience" and "works." Literally, HUNDREDS of verses in the NT talk about obedience and works. The difference is "what is being obeyed?"
Romans 6 tells us that we should not sin, that we should obey God, and that we should NOT obey the man-made regulations that the religious leadership imposes on us.

There are only TWO KINDS of "walking." I walk according to the instructions the Father gave, or I don't. I am trying to please my Father, or I am not. I am obeying the instructions that introduce the pollution of idols, or I stick to what the Father said to do. I do EXACTLY what Jesus did, or I don't bother even trying.

Romans 8 The carnal mind cannot please God. Why? It WILL NOT and CANNOT submit to the authority of YHVH's Law. The carnal mind cannot please God.

But, I still don't know from you, "why didn't everyone find the same grace?"

You claim grace is "unmerited." Then, why did those people drown?


The pharisees did that. And crucified Christ because Christ told them their works were meaningless..

No. The Pharisees added to the Law. Salvation was never an issue.
Jesus said they added to the Law and taught the traditions of men as if they were the Torah.
In Matthew 23:1-4, Jesus tells His disciples to obey what the Pharisees say when they sit in Moses' seat. But, don't follow the things they do because that is what they are adding to the Law. When they sit in Moses' seat, they are reading the Law. Jesus said to obey THAT. He certainly did.

This response exposes a few things.

1. You have utterly no idea what I think faith is. Faith is not mental acknowledgement, It is deeper than this, If you would read my posts. You would see this. But for whatever reason, You think you are all knowing. Thus you know what I believe/

2. In saying this

I sit here and tell you that I got past the salvation issue 40 years ago. I have never doubted that I am just as saved now as I ever was, and unless I do something extraordinary and foolish, I am sure I will continue being just as saved.

You prove my point that your focus is on works. No matter how you deny it. You claim you have faith in God. But your faith is in your works. You claim you can not be saved by works, Yet you claim if you do not work hard enough to not do whatever it is you think would cause you to lose salvation. That you will in effect lose eternal life (which means it was never eternal to begin with.

3. You claim the carnal mind can not please God. I agree.. Yet the lost has no basis for having a non carnal mind, everything they do, whether it be a good deed. Or sin, comes from a carnal mind, Its why they can do no good. Because it is who they are. Scripture says we love because God first loved us, You have no capacity to love unless you are saved. Because you have self love fleshly love, Not spiritual love which comes from God.

You ask why people can drown if they are shown Grace. Its easy. Grace was offered to them, They rejected it. They did not believe the one sent to rescue could or would save them. Their pride kept them from trusting, or they trusted self. They either acted like the pharisee, who praised how good he was. Or act like th earthiest, who says their is no God. Or make up their own God (romans 1)

None of these people are saved. A religious person can look saved, Act saved, Do all these great christian works. Yet in the end, As jesus said, On that day many will come and say did I not do all these great works in your name

Jesus will say, depart. For I never knew you.

You want to talk about sanctification and christian growth, We can talk about it. But until we talk about how one will be raised from God on the last day, as apposed to delivered to him for judgment, Then all talk of personal sanctification is meaningless

 

[farouk]

This response exposes a few things.

1. You have utterly no idea what I think faith is. Faith is not mental acknowledgement, It is deeper than this, If you would read my posts. You would see this. But for whatever reason, You think you are all knowing. Thus you know what I believe/

2. In saying this
You prove my point that your focus is on works. No matter how you deny it. You claim you have faith in God. But your faith is in your works. You claim you can not be saved by works, Yet you claim if you do not work hard enough to not do whatever it is you think would cause you to lose salvation. That you will in effect lose eternal life (which means it was never eternal to begin with.

3. You claim the carnal mind can not please God. I agree.. Yet the lost has no basis for having a non carnal mind, everything they do, whether it be a good deed. Or sin, comes from a carnal mind, Its why they can do no good. Because it is who they are. Scripture says we love because God first loved us, You have no capacity to love unless you are saved. Because you have self love fleshly love, Not spiritual love which comes from God.

You ask why people can drown if they are shown Grace. Its easy. Grace was offered to them, They rejected it. They did not believe the one sent to rescue could or would save them. Their pride kept them from trusting, or they trusted self. They either acted like the pharisee, who praised how good he was. Or act like th earthiest, who says their is no God. Or make up their own God (romans 1)

None of these people are saved. A religious person can look saved, Act saved, Do all these great christian works. Yet in the end, As jesus said, On that day many will come and say did I not do all these great works in your name

Jesus will say, depart. For I never knew you.

You want to talk about sanctification and christian growth, We can talk about it. But until we talk about how one will be raised from God on the last day, as apposed to delivered to him for judgment, Then all talk of personal sanctification is meaningless

Hi @Eternally Grateful Interesting that 2 Peter 3.18 speaks of both grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Growing in Him involves both.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

That was a quote from Wikipedia, that I agreed with. We are justified by faith, credited with righteousness "as if" we fulfilled the requirements of the Law. But we didn't, Christ did.

Wikipedia quotes church father beliefs. But I haven't found many of the later church fathers to agree with scripture. And it seems to me that many of their followers are not Berean enough to see if what their favorite church father teaches is what the apostles taught, rather than only sounds good (itching ears). Paul taught that "imputed" sin of Adam, and "imputed" righteousness were before Christ who came to solve the initial problems from Adam's sin. And their sins were not accounted to them - Abraham and David being loved of God in the midst of blatant sin. Sin was the issue and Jesus TOOK AWAY our inherited sin nature so that now with God's laws written on our hearts, we can naturally (new NATURE) be righteous, all because of the power Jesus has given us that the OT saints didn't have, thus it could only be "imputed" to them because they believed in God. That was the Old Covenant promises and benefits. We are in a better Covenant with better promises, and imputed anything doesn't apply. We don't have to become a law keeper on our own; in fact, our acknowledgement of how weak we are in comparison to Christ is what is needed to repent. THEN Jesus makes us into His likeness. And what He starts in us, He will finish, but what He first takes away is SIN - sanctification. We are not fully knowledgeable of all aspects of God's perfection, but the sins unto death are gone. The rest of the process of glorification happens throughout life as we continue perfecting the steps 2 Peter 1:5-7 so that we never stumble. 2 Peter 1:2-11.

"In Reformed theology, "imputation" most often refers to the legal (or forensic) crediting of Jesus’ perfect righteousness to believers by faith for justification (another important theological term). Imputation communicates that believers are made right with God (or justified) on the basis of the obedience of Christ (both active and passive—again, key theological terms). By Jesus’ active obedience he meets the demands of perfect righteousness God has always required of humanity. By Jesus’ passive obedience, he pays the penalty due to humanity on account of sin. Additionally, beyond the imputation of Christ’s full obedience to believers, imputation may also refer to the counting of believers’ sins to Christ as the sin-bearing substitute.
Imputation thus refers to the way that Jesus’ full obedience that meets the demands for what is required for peace with God can count on behalf of his people. Imputation describes the legal means by which our perfect representative’s actions can benefit us by faith. Apart from the perfect obedience of Christ imputed to us, we are not able to meet the demands of a holy, just, and perfect God. Imputation is therefore at the heart of the gospel message: the requirements for acceptance with God cannot be met by sinful humanity, but the eternal Son of God—who condescended and took on flesh for our sake—has accomplished in the likeness of sinful flesh what sinful humanity could never do. Indeed, Adam’s first sin is imputed to all humanity descending from him naturally, and therefore Adam’s sin has legally binding consequences for all who are born “in him.” Likewise—but better—Christ’s entire righteousness has legal consequences for all those who are “in him,” and this is explained by means of imputation (cf. Rom. 5:12–21). The Bible’s “in him” language also points to the importance of union with Christ, which is another key piece of the puzzle that explains how Christ’s full righteousness benefits believers (on which see the helpful discussion of John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion 3.1.1).
To conclude, the Westminster Shorter Catechism captures the essence of imputation for justification well:
Q. What is justification?
A. Justification is an act of God’s free grace, wherein he pardons all our sins, and accepts us as righteous in his sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and received by faith alone. [Italics added; edited for style.]"
By Brandon Crowe
Maybe you have a problem with Calvin? Luther taught it too. I believe Augustine did ... if you are Catholic.

Hi Ronald,

My life of religious background was first Seventh-day Adventist for 23 years until I had one of those light-bulb, life-changing experiences in 1970. Basically the change in doctrine had to do with grace vs law, and going from a staunch Cessationist, to someone who was open to everything they had in the first century, the start of THIS New Covenant that doesn't change. What we see displayed and what we don't see displayed in the gifts of the Spirit now has everything to do with faith and acceptance of everything God wants to give us to empower us. Some Christians will never experience even one gift. As for RCC and Orthodox, there was only one thing Augustine said, that I totally agree with, and was exstatic over in the midst of the dark ages. I don't know what else he taught, and for the most part the whole Mary devotion is over the top and unscriptural to set up any human being in a place to bow down to them and give them the place that only Jesus should have, like as mediator. And that goes for praying to any of their saints, or dead loved ones.

I want to copy a couple sentences here to highlight it for you to expound on a little.

"the counting of believers’ sins to Christ as the sin-bearing substitute."

"Apart from the perfect obedience of Christ imputed to us, we are not able to meet the demands of a holy, just, and perfect God. Imputation is therefore at the heart of the gospel message: the requirements for acceptance with God cannot be met by sinful humanity, but the eternal Son of God—who condescended and took on flesh for our sake—has accomplished in the likeness of sinful flesh what sinful humanity could never do."

What is not mentioned in the above section of yours is how much change in us actuality happens. You only mention how God sees Jesus. But what about the sins we made in the past? What about the sins we commit in the present? What about the sins we commit in the future? How do WE overcome sinning?

Mark and I usually agree, Enoch sometimes. It doesn't matter, we aren't taking sides. We agree that we are justifed by His Grace through faith ... and this faith itself is a gift.
Let's just agree that everything good comes from God and we did not earn it.

The three of you do not agree much with how I see what Paul is actually saying, nor John nor any of the other apostles. Enoch is the most sarcastic though, and fruitless. You and marks handle yourselves as if you were clones. LOL

I only even learned what Calvinists and Lutherans believed in my senior years, and on Christian forums. Before that I had no idea, and frankly was shocked how much I adamantly disagreed with based on a lifetime of Bible study. And I've gone through the most change and refinement in my personal beliefs when about 10 years ago I prayed and asked God to erase any denominational doctrines that may have leaked into the denominations I was in in the past that stuck. What I have now and continue to grow in is Scripture based on what the Author meant, and from no man. So I am no longer in a denomination, and now go to church to teach the pastors what scripture actually means, and to give them the only Bible commentary that agrees with most of the new doctrines I have learned in these past 10 years, the Abingdon Bible Commentary, c. 1929.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Paul taught that "imputed" sin of Adam, and "imputed" righteousness were before Christ ...

Really?
Romans 3:21 - righteousness is "manifested"
1 Corinthians 1:30 - "in Christ we "become righteous"
Romans 4:5 - " the one who does not work but believes in Him, his faith is "credited as righteousness"
Romans 3:26 "through Christ we ate "made righteous"
2 Corinthians 5:21 - our sins were imputed to Christ- HE BECAME SIN
Manifested, become, made, credited are all words that descri e imputation.

The rest of the process of glorification happens throughout life as we continue perfecting the steps 2 Peter 1:5-7 so that we never stumble. 2 Peter 1:2-11.

WHAT? We will not be glorified until we are resurrected! We are sanctified and are being transformed into the Likeness of Christ.

the counting of believers’ sins to Christ as the sin-bearing substitute."

2 Corinthians 5:21

What is not mentioned in the above section of yours is how much change in us actuality happens. You only mention how God sees Jesus. But what about the sins we made in the past? What about the sins we commit in the present? What about the sins we commit in the future? How do WE overcome sinning?

We are instantly spiritually changed and given Life. Our spirit is pure and separate from our sarx. Remember the wkrd is sharper than a two-edged sword ... able to divide soul and spirit. If they were the same, they could not be divided. So it is if a newborn Christian suddenly dies, his spirit is separated from his fleah and he goes directly to the Lord, pure white as snow and all the sin that dwells in the members of our flesh is left behind.
Christ died for past present amd future sins - not just past sins. He took them all. He is outside of time. This is how His righteousness is immediately imputed to us EVEN THOUGH WE MAY BE IMMATURE CHRISTIANS. Do you think that criminal next to Jesus was a mature Christian? No he just became ine and was promised be would be in Paradise today. He confessed being a sinner in godly sorrow, believed and Jesus forgave him.
For the rest of us who remain and wait until our redemption, certainly we must grow our knowledge of the Bible, cooperate, serve, practice, persevere, love our neighbor - like it says in 2 Peter 1:5-7.

I only even learned what Calvinists and Lutherans believed in my senior years, and on Christian forums. Before that I had no idea, and frankly was shocked how much I adamantly disagreed with based on a lifetime of Bible study.

I just think you have a problem with that word and I think a desdain for Reformed theology that
causes some resentment and mental blocks. I am not a Calvinist
nor Lutheran but hold common beliefs. Luther was the man who God used to send a message to the RCC.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Really?
Romans 3:21 - righteousness is "manifested"
1 Corinthians 1:30 - "in Christ we "become righteous"
Romans 4:5 - " the one who does not work but believes in Him, his faith is "credited as righteousness"
Romans 3:26 "through Christ we ate "made righteous"
2 Corinthians 5:21 - our sins were imputed to Christ- HE BECAME SIN
Manifested, become, made, credited are all words that descri e imputation.

Yes. All of those chapter in the middle of the whole 8 chapter teaching of Law vs. Spirit had to do with before Christ about people before and after the law. (Abraham was before the law, and David was after the law.

Imputed is not in 2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

WHAT? We will not be glorified until we are resurrected!

Jesus is giving us His glory now, Ron. John 17. I've heard on these forums the theory that glorification is after we are resurrected, but that is strictly a post-apostolic teaching. Where did you hear that teaching if you are not in a denomination that teaches it? It is false. You will grow further if you can open your mind to just what is in scripture and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you and not a man-made denomination.

We are sanctified and are being transformed into the Likeness of Christ.

YES!!! That transformation is called glorification. Right now it is only our inner nature called the divine nature. 2 Peter 1:2-4. Romans 8:29-30

We are instantly spiritually changed and given Life. Our spirit is pure and separate from our sarx. Remember the wkrd is sharper than a two-edged sword ... able to divide soul and spirit. If they were the same, they could not be divided. So it is if a newborn Christian suddenly dies, his spirit is separated from his fleah and he goes directly to the Lord, pure white as snow and all the sin that dwells in the members of our flesh is left behind.
Christ died for past present amd future sins - not just past sins. He took them all. He is outside of time. This is how His righteousness is immediately imputed to us EVEN THOUGH WE MAY BE IMMATURE CHRISTIANS. Do you think that criminal next to Jesus was a mature Christian? No he just became ine and was promised be would be in Paradise today. He confessed being a sinner in godly sorrow, believed and Jesus forgave him.
For the rest of us who remain and wait until our redemption, certainly we must grow our knowledge of the Bible, cooperate, serve, practice, persevere, love our neighbor - like it says in 2 Peter 1:5-7.

I have an entirely different interpretation of scripture based on these.

Our spirit and soul together are what is born again and what was referred to as "the flesh." The spirit/mind and soul/heart are inside of us. They are separate, but inseparable, like the Trinity.

The flesh is our nature. Before Christ it was the old-man where sin dwelt. But according to Romans 6:6-7 they were crucified with Christ and we are raised up Spirit. Romans 8:9 We are no longer in the flesh (the old nature). The spirit and soul are separate from the body which does not hold sin so doesn't need to be born again now to be sinless and like Christ. Christ was sinless because of His divine NATURE, that is given to those who are born again now. 1 John 3:5-9; 1 John 5:18.

There is a false teaching that says because we as born again Christians are "in the flesh," we will always sin until we die and are raised up new in the resurrection. Do you believe that? Whoever started that teaching didn't know what was born again, nor how it affected us, except Augustine. I was surprised that he knew. It had not yet been totally obliterated from the teachings of the whole Church.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Our nature is made blameless when we are born again. That again is our spirit and soul - our new nature. The body is blameless because the body cannot sin on its own without our heart and mind telling it what to do, so it is already blameless, but because of Adam, must still die. Romans 8:10

I just think you have a problem with that word and I think a desdain for Reformed theology that causes some resentment and mental blocks. I am not a Calvinist nor Lutheran but hold common beliefs. Luther was the man who God used to send a message to the RCC.

Yes, they had a good reputation. But what Jesus said to them was "you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." Revelation 3:1

It wasn't until I heard what they teached through being on the forums that I finally understood why Jesus thought the doctrines that came out of the Reformation was only death to the hearers. But then 200 years after the beginning of that church age, Jesus writes, You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

Knowing church history, one of those it is obviously referring to is John Wesley, the founder of the holiness group. He was against Calvinism too, as was Jesus. I only listen to Jesus, not to man. If you haven't studied them, you should see what Jesus says to the seven church ages from the 2000 to the last age, Laodecia. I'm a Philadelphian, and am wondering if that last church age has started yet, or is after the strong delusion is put on the rest of mankind that didn't believe when they had the chance. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Yes. All of those chapter in the middle of the whole 8 chapter teaching of Law vs. Spirit had to do with before Christ about people before and after the law. (Abraham was before the law, and David was after the law.

Imputed is not in 2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.



Jesus is giving us His glory now, Ron. John 17. I've heard on these forums the theory that glorification is after we are resurrected, but that is strictly a post-apostolic teaching. Where did you hear that teaching if you are not in a denomination that teaches it? It is false. You will grow further if you can open your mind to just what is in scripture and allow the Holy Spirit to teach you and not a man-made denomination.



YES!!! That transformation is called glorification. Right now it is only our inner nature called the divine nature. 2 Peter 1:2-4. Romans 8:29-30



I have an entirely different interpretation of scripture based on these.

Our spirit and soul together are what is born again and what was referred to as "the flesh." The spirit/mind and soul/heart are inside of us. They are separate, but inseparable, like the Trinity.

The flesh is our nature. Before Christ it was the old-man where sin dwelt. But according to Romans 6:6-7 they were crucified with Christ and we are raised up Spirit. Romans 8:9 We are no longer in the flesh (the old nature). The spirit and soul are separate from the body which does not hold sin so doesn't need to be born again now to be sinless and like Christ. Christ was sinless because of His divine NATURE, that is given to those who are born again now. 1 John 3:5-9; 1 John 5:18.

There is a false teaching that says because we as born again Christians are "in the flesh," we will always sin until we die and are raised up new in the resurrection. Do you believe that? Whoever started that teaching didn't know what was born again, nor how it affected us, except Augustine. I was surprised that he knew. It had not yet been totally obliterated from the teachings of the whole Church.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Our nature is made blameless when we are born again. That again is our spirit and soul - our new nature. The body is blameless because the body cannot sin on its own without our heart and mind telling it what to do, so it is already blameless, but because of Adam, must still die. Romans 8:10



Yes, they had a good reputation. But what Jesus said to them was "you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead." Revelation 3:1

It wasn't until I heard what they teached through being on the forums that I finally understood why Jesus thought the doctrines that came out of the Reformation was only death to the hearers. But then 200 years after the beginning of that church age, Jesus writes, You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

Knowing church history, one of those it is obviously referring to is John Wesley, the founder of the holiness group. He was against Calvinism too, as was Jesus. I only listen to Jesus, not to man. If you haven't studied them, you should see what Jesus says to the seven church ages from the 2000 to the last age, Laodecia. I'm a Philadelphian, and am wondering if that last church age has started yet, or is after the strong delusion is put on the rest of mankind that didn't believe when they had the chance. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12.

It seems this conversation is spreading out too far and wide.
I do not agree with some of the views you hold. I have given sufficient reasons and scriptures on the initial comment but we have reached an impasse. It's becoming redundant. You are set in your ways - stay where you are. I don't think Jesus himself could come down and persuade you about the word impute. I'm bored with this.

Is God's grace blessing our lives in every way? Can I get an Amen?
Happy Resurrection Day! Two more weeks away. I am resting in His peace, love and comforted all by the Grace of God.

 

[Robert Gwin]

So when you pray to Jehovah, part of your prayer contains praise and thankfulness for His "kindness - "nothing more and nothing less"?
And then your description of Jesus would be what, just kind? Or do you attribute the source of kindness from Jesus? Probably not, you would say the Father is the source of Grace and Jesus is just being obedient to deliver whatever the Father says and so Jesus doesn't get the thanks. ?
Jesus is the radiance of God, full of Grace. He is the expression of Grace that is the Life (physically and spiritually), the Light, the Way, the Truth, the Good Shepherd, the Vine, the Bread of Life, the Resurrection, who is Holy, Love, Peace, Joy, Patient, Kind, Gentle, Good, Faithful, Sovereign, and the ALL Mighty God who provides us with all our needs. And soon the world of the ungodly will experience His Judgment and wrath.
My main objection is that JW's do not recognize Jesus for who He truly is nor do you pray to or thank Him. You thank the Father for the Son, but don't directly worship, thank or praise Jesus with the honor and capacity that 2.64 billion Christians do. Why? Because you think He is Michael, an angel and angels are not to be worshipped. I think that will be Jesus first order of revelation to all JW's, to introduce you to Michael.

We are speaking about one word in the Bible sir. It means what it means, and as I stated it is best translated kindness in today's English. Like you mentioned there are many more titles and words that describe things and persons in the Bible, that is why it is so beneficial to take the Bible as a whole.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hi @Eternally Grateful Interesting that 2 Peter 3.18 speaks of both grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Growing in Him involves both.

I praise God for his grace in allowing me the opportunity to get to know him more. And grow in knowledge of who he is..