Grace or Law...are they really contradictory, or complimentary?

[brakelite]

There is a common underlying theme to so many discussions which touch on the Ten Commandments, OSAS, salvation by faith, the Sabbath, works, obedience , antinomianism etc,etc, and that common thread is the nature of sin, and God's method of dealing with it. Following that theme, I would like to post my thoughts on the underlying purpose of God's plan of salvation...the ultimate purpose in preparing us and making it possible for us to receive that most precious gift of eternal life.

Quoting from Paul's letter to the Romans chapter 8.....
1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

(now see why Christ condemned sin in the flesh....)

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death (why is it that to be carnally minded leads to death? Because the wages of sin is death); but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

(Note that the carnal mind is not subject to God's laws...the carnal mind cannot obey God...it is in fact at war with God)

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

(But note the very next word).....

9 But ....BUT....ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.

(Note this carefully.The born again Spirit filled believer in Christ is set in direct contradistinction to the carnal flesh minded unsaved unregenerated non-believer. The latter cannot obey God...but the former..what can He do??? Surely he can obey the law...he was even re-created for that very purpose!!!)
The creative power of God, the same power that created the universe and everything in it, and the same power that raised Jesus from the dead, it is often claimed is not powerful enough to make such a change in your life that you cannot overcome sin!

As Christians we are required to obey all God's commandments. As far as I am concerned that's a given. However, it is how we accomplish this seemingly impossible task that makes all the difference between the Jews of the OT and we of the NT. Let us not make the same mistake as did Israel of old. They made a rash promise at Sinai, one which they paid for throughout their ensuing history. After God gave the law, Israel pronounced: Ex 19:8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD. It was this weak promise that is alluded to in the book of Hebrews, and which inspired the Lord to establish a new covenant based on 'better promises'. Israel attempted to obey in their own strength. They said we will do. In the NT God has promised that He will do. How? By writing His laws upon our hearts and minds. Thus we as Christians are not to go about our lives trying constantly to obey, no no. The just shall live by faith! (An OT recommendation btw) It is as we abide in Christ...as we absorb the life giving power that comes through the vine....power that grows fruits of obedience (Phil. 1:11)....it is as we focus on our Savior Jesus, that our obedience to the laws of God become a living reality in our lives. And the key force, the key virtue that unlocks all of this is LOVE. Love is the fulfilling of the law. (Romans 13:9,10) Love enables us to demonstrate the righteousness of Christ in our day-to-day living. It is love, the very nature and character of God imparted to our hearts and minds, bringing to us the image of our Savior, the very same character that Jesus demonstrated throughout His walk on earth, that fulfills every single requirement of the law. For when we love, we cannot be offending either God or man. This is why Jesus said unto him, (the lawyer)

Matt 22:37Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Romans 5:17 For if by one man’s offense death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

The only thing that impedes God's ability to create in us His own righteousness...to make true obedient disciples...to make us experientially holy, righteous, virtuous, "not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that we (the church) should be holy and without blemish." ......is our unbelief.
It is therefore never God's plan to remove or change the law, but to remove our fleshly nature, and change us that we may walk in harmony with the law.

 

[Barrd]

I think it is vital that we understand that the law referred to in Jeremiah's prophecy (Jer 31:31-34), and in Hebrews (Heb 6; 8-12) can only be the Ten Commandments...the Law written by the hand of God, Himself.

 

[mjrhealth]

I guess one must ask one these questions,

1. Without teh law would I steal,
2. Without the law would I murder.
3. Without the law would I covette my neighbours property.
4. Without the law would i not love God
5 Without the law would you serve other Gods
6 Without the law would you bear false witness

Etc etc,

Of course if teh answer is yes than teh law is for you,

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Of course there is this bit.

Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Joh_1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Your choice

Love or the law
Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I think its vital we not neglect the power of God, It seems God is gettin g a raw deal...

 

[Raeneske]

I guess one must ask one these questions,

1. Without teh law would I steal,
2. Without the law would I murder.
3. Without the law would I covette my neighbours property.
4. Without the law would i not love God
5 Without the law would you serve other Gods
6 Without the law would you bear false witness

Etc etc,

Of course if teh answer is yes than teh law is for you,

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Of course there is this bit.

Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Joh_1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Your choice

Love or the law
Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I think its vital we not neglect the power of God, It seems God is gettin g a raw deal...

You cannot love without obeying the law. It is impossible. No human being has an understanding on what love is until God writes His law upon their heart. Never can we get a full conception on true love, until His law is written upon our very hearts. Some may come to an understanding that they should not steal, but fail upon the point of hating their neighbors, though they kill them not. However, as a whole, to love God and our neighbors is completely foreign to the sinful mind and heart. Sin and love are on opposite ends of the spectrum. If you love someone, you will not sin. Actually, you will do the opposite of sin, you will love them. The opposite of sin, is love. For example:

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

The commandment says, thou shalt kill. To kill is to commit sin. Now, you can refuse to kill, which shows your love for your neighbor. But take it a step further. Do the opposite of sin. Instead of taking life, give life. Assist God in maintaining life. Give to your neighbor that which will give them life. Even eternal life. Give them the Word of Life. Do the opposite of sin.

The law is truly spiritual, and is truly great, and the end of the commandment is indeed charity. But spiritual things are spiritually discerned. And the carnal minded cannot see all the beauty in the law of God. All one may see is "rules". I see my a guide. I see a clear lamp unto my feet, that will bring me into the arms of Jesus. I see written in 10 simple commandments the love which Christ has had for me, in showing me mercy, giving His life for my life, the opposite of thou shalt not kill. I see Jesus in the law. And no marvel, for it is written:

Isaiah 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

No, the law cannot save me. It lacks in the ability to die for my sins. But Jesus died for my sins. And Jesus condemned transgression of the law, while being in the flesh. Satan had nothing in Christ. Christ lived a life that was the polar opposite of sin. "Thou shalt not steal" was exemplified in not only refusing to steal things from others, but He walked the opposite way, in giving His services to others, and His life as a service to others. The Law literally describes the character of God. But again, spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

 

[brakelite]

mjrhealth said....
I guess one must ask one these questions,

1. Without teh law would I steal,
2. Without the law would I murder.
3. Without the law would I covette my neighbours property.
4. Without the law would i not love God
5 Without the law would you serve other Gods
6 Without the law would you bear false witness

The answer to that is simple. No. Without the law written on my heart, I would not have any more power to with-hold my hand, heart or mind from transgressing against at least one of God's commandments than did Israel. One must not forget that as the poster said previous, the law is the detail of the concept of love...and the opposite to love is selfishness. All sin is an expression of selfishness. Without the law...without love...we are all utterly selfish and therefore transgressors against God's law.

 

[Barrd]

You cannot love without obeying the law. It is impossible. No human being has an understanding on what love is until God writes His law upon their heart. Never can we get a full conception on true love, until His law is written upon our very hearts. Some may come to an understanding that they should not steal, but fail upon the point of hating their neighbors, though they kill them not. However, as a whole, to love God and our neighbors is completely foreign to the sinful mind and heart. Sin and love are on opposite ends of the spectrum. If you love someone, you will not sin. Actually, you will do the opposite of sin, you will love them. The opposite of sin, is love. For example:

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

The commandment says, thou shalt kill. To kill is to commit sin. Now, you can refuse to kill, which shows your love for your neighbor. But take it a step further. Do the opposite of sin. Instead of taking life, give life. Assist God in maintaining life. Give to your neighbor that which will give them life. Even eternal life. Give them the Word of Life. Do the opposite of sin.

The law is truly spiritual, and is truly great, and the end of the commandment is indeed charity. But spiritual things are spiritually discerned. And the carnal minded cannot see all the beauty in the law of God. All one may see is "rules". I see my a guide. I see a clear lamp unto my feet, that will bring me into the arms of Jesus. I see written in 10 simple commandments the love which Christ has had for me, in showing me mercy, giving His life for my life, the opposite of thou shalt not kill. I see Jesus in the law. And no marvel, for it is written:

Isaiah 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

No, the law cannot save me. It lacks in the ability to die for my sins. But Jesus died for my sins. And Jesus condemned transgression of the law, while being in the flesh. Satan had nothing in Christ. Christ lived a life that was the polar opposite of sin. "Thou shalt not steal" was exemplified in not only refusing to steal things from others, but He walked the opposite way, in giving His services to others, and His life as a service to others. The Law literally describes the character of God. But again, spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

DGenesis, this is beautiful. Thank you for posting this.

 

[ATP]

I always found this passage to ring true..1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

 

[brakelite]

We seem to diverting away from the intent of the OP...perhaps I didnt make it clear enough...that is to define God's purpose for man in relation to grace and His laws. Are they mutually incompatible, or as I believe I showed, co-dependent?

 

[Barrd]

We seem to diverting away from the intent of the OP...perhaps I didnt make it clear enough...that is to define God's purpose for man in relation to grace and His laws. Are they mutually incompatible, or as I believe I showed, co-dependent?

What Christian would tell us that it is now okay to worship other Gods besides our own Christian God? Or that it would be cool to make a wooden idol and worship it, the way people used to do? Or to use God's name as a curse?
Yes, I know...most Christians think the Sabbath is no longer valid...more is the pity...
Would any Christian say that it's okay to disrespect parents? Hmmm....scratch that. We have a thread somewhere where a young husband is not only disrespecting his own father, but his wife's parents as well.
Okay...so what about murder, adultery, theft, or lies? What about longing for something that belongs to someone else?

I think we all know that these things are not permissible...and I would go so far as to say that none of the things listed here are permissible, including ignoring God's Sabbath.

This is the law that God has written in our hearts...

 

[mjrhealth]

Hi Brakelite, I had to reread your first post and it is spot on. But how was it put,

Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Now us gentile never had teh law, we never had that schoolmaster, we came to Christ under grace.

But the devil would have us running to the law because that than becomes a work of the flesh and than forfits grace.

Once we truly come to Christ, born of God we are and must be filled with His love, love needs no law to do what is right.

In all His Love

 

[brakelite]

Okay, thanks for the approbation for my first post. And yes, you rightly point out that the law is a schoolmaster to point us to Jesus Christ, who is the "end" or goal of Torah. Which is why Jesus gave a Bible study to the two disciples on the road to Emmaus "showing from all Moses and the prophets the things concerning Himself". But that leads me to a question....in my OP there was revealed the purpose of Christ's dying in the flesh, that being "that the righteousness of the law might be revealed in us" (Romans 8:4)....so, is that accomplished by our works, or by grace?

 

[mjrhealth]

And yes, you rightly point out that the law is a schoolmaster to point us to Jesus Christ

You missed the point, it never was our schoolmaster it belonged to the Israelite's. We came to Christ under Grace, after pentecost, first to the Jews than to the gentiles. Some kep insisting the Jews are still under the law but,

Understand this.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

See if you say you are His than go to the law you are committing adultry, rebeling against your husband who is Christ.

It is the power of God that saves not our works.

In all His Love

 

[Raeneske]

You missed the point, it never was our schoolmaster it belonged to the Israelite's. We came to Christ under Grace, after pentecost, first to the Jews than to the gentiles. Some kep insisting the Jews are still under the law but,

Understand this.

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

See if you say you are His than go to the law you are committing adultry, rebeling against your husband who is Christ.

It is the power of God that saves not our works.

In all His Love

You make is sound as if the grace of Christ causes us to utterly forsake that law. Yes, we are become dead to law, but not in the way you are defining it. Let Paul define it himself.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

A few verses later, Paul says that we serve in the newness of the spirit, instead of the oldness of the letter. And then, in conclusion of the entire chapter, Paul declares that he serves the law of God with his mind. Paul is admitting to now serving the law inside and out, instead of just serving it only outwardly, the oldness of the letter. Starting with the mind, he is obedient to that very law. There is no rebellion to Christ by Paul in declaring his service to the law now. Paul serves it, and so are we. Not in the oldness of the letter, that is, "Thou shalt not steal" not only outwardly stealing items. But we cannot steal hearts, we cannot steal service. We do not steal in our minds, and in our hearts that which is due to others, for example, glory due to God, we take to ourselves. We do not take these things, for this is theft. We do not take or steal, but rather, we serve in the newness of spirit, refusing to take that which is not our own, but we move forward and give that which we have been given, and give that which is our own. So Paul served the law, and so I serve the law. And if this is rebellion, then I confess that which Paul confessed:

Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

 

[Raeneske]

DGenesis, this is beautiful. Thank you for posting this.

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Praise the Lord God of the God head. Praise our Father, His Son, and His Holy Spirit for all the truth, and wisdom, and goodness bestowed upon the human race. Praise God for His kindness, and everlasting mercy!

 

[DPMartin]

Everyone forgets that God (Elohim) is not only Creator of all things, but also Judge of all things. Hence without Grace and Mercy that supercede the law, it’s the law. And if you read
Ex:40:20: And he took and put the testimony into the ark, and set the staves on the ark, and put the mercy seat above upon the ark:
It is easy to see that Mercy has been set over the law, (testimony). That testifies that you are not Christ, (fall sort and unacceptable in the Presence of God) and testifies that Jesus is the Christ. Hence Jesus meeting the law’s testimony of who and what the Christ is, had no need of mercy. Therefore risen by the power He has.
Also one man sinned and all are born into sin in the case of all the sons of Adam, but Noah found Grace in God’s sight therefore all sons of Noah may find Grace just as all sons of Abraham Isaac and Jacob may have the faith of Abraham, until Christ came. Now all born of the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus Christ have the same Spirit and Power to become sons of God.
So the Judgement is plain to see without the Grace and Mercy what is left is, the law that testifies that you are not justified to be in God’s Presence. But receiving the Life of Christ, is your justification because Jesus is already justified and it was God’s Grace and Mercy to accept Jesus as our justifier for us, seeing us through Jesus by being born of the same Spirit.

Even the Torah verifies by Grace through Faith. There was Adam who put us into the born into sin, then ten generations to Noah who found Grace. The first place in the bible Grace is mentioned. Then ten generations to Abraham then "Abram" and it was his faith (he believed) that was accounted as righteousness in God’s sight.

 

[mjrhealth]

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

The law is a burden that some choose to bear, it is not theirs.

No they are not compatible

 

[heretoeternity]

Paul in Romans "do we sin more so grace abounds? God forbid". Sin is described in 1st John as "transgression of the law"...

 

[justaname]

I think this is a better translation of 1 John 3:4
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
New American Standard Bible: 1995 update. (1995). (1 Jn 3:4). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.


I agree as we walk in the Spirit we are in harmony with the two commandments, love God and others. Love fulfills the Law. By writing His Royal Law, love, on our hearts we experience His divine nature working in us. Although we are still perfecting our walk as we battle against our carnal minds we are empowered by Him. The battle and struggle is real moment to moment day to day yet greater is He who is in us than he who is in the world.

 

[heretoeternity]

Act 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

The law is a burden that some choose to bear, it is not theirs.

No they are not compatible





Grace and works are complimentary, they work together..we are saved by God's grace, and after salvation we strive to keep God's law the Ten commandments....Paul said in Romans "do we make void the law through faith? God forbid. We establish the law" and he also said "do we sin more so grace abounds? God forbid."....John in 1st John defines sin as "transgression of the law"....it is easy to connect the dots and see where grace and obedience to God's law work together...
The problem arises when confuse the 600+laws of Moses, the sacrificial, ceremonial laws with the Ten commandments...Acts 15 says the sacrificial, ceremonial etc law of Moses are gone, with the exception of the 4 mentioned.
This does NOT refer to God's law, the Ten commandments which are entirely separate, as they were written by God Himself, and are the moral law to live by, and will stand unto eternity, as He wrote them on stone.

Remember always, salvation is through the Son of God, God's grace and commandments, and NOT the sungod/satan and his doctrines and days of sunday, dec 25th and easter, all of which are non Biblical and of pagan origin.

 

[Barrd]

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Praise the Lord God of the God head. Praise our Father, His Son, and His Holy Spirit for all the truth, and wisdom, and goodness bestowed upon the human race. Praise God for His kindness, and everlasting mercy!

Now let me whisper in your ear:

1Co 13:4 Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
1Co 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

(Notice how I replaced that word "charity" with "love")

What else does love not do?
Love is never conceited....and love is never rude.

Of course, we are all still stuck in these flesh bodies...and we still do get frustrated with one another, and sometimes we let that creep into the posts that we type.
I'm certainly not perfect in that regard

But with God's help, and a couple of precious brothers as my example, I am working on it.

And I am praying for you, too. You're too good a guy to give in to your temper. When we do such things, we bring shame to Christ's church...