Grace requires works to bear fruit!

[St. SteVen]

And it’s odd but even unbelievers can see the wrong in the doctrines...

Atheist Dan Barker definitely won this debate against Christian Thomas Ross. IMHO
Ross even stooped to defaming Barker in an attempt to win. Fighting dirty. Such a shame.
It was a strange place to be, siding with the atheist. But he clearly had a better argument.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I’ll take a look at that! I learn from things like it.

 

[St. SteVen]

What's the % of people that go to Heaven ? Not many I gather.

Quite a plan for humankind, created in God's image.
With full knowledge, forethought, and intent.
Are you saying God is a cosmic tyrant?

At the end of each day in the creation week, God saw that it was good.
Did He slip up somehow? Things were out of His control?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Quite a plan for humankind, created in God's image.
With full knowledge, forethought, and intent.
Are you saying God is a cosmic tyrant?

At the end of each day in the creation week, God saw that it was good.
Did He slip up somehow? Things were out of His control?

Ah, but men read that many are called but few are chosen, and they think to not be chosen means “off with your head.” Called is the righteous, chosen is the holy. It is true that few enter holiness on earth. They are the saints. But it is NOT true that to not attain to that holiness necessarily means off with your head. And this can be clearly and repeatedly shown from scripture.
God accepts and makes a place for the righteous, despite the protestations of indoctrinated religious men! And in the millennium, the holy rule over the righteous.
So…religious men need to explain just exactly WHO are the righteous counted among the nations and WHO are the holy who rule over them, because their scheme has a few ruling over…no one.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I’ll take a look at that! I learn from things like it.

Yikes! I can’t. I got about 45 torturous minutes in. I might try some more of it later. If the first guy wins, the second guy must go completely off the rails! Lol.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thanks.
Perhaps a means OF Grace? The Eucharist as spiritual food, for instance.
Still...
The Sacraments (Grace) require works to bear fruit? ???

The sacraments can be seen from two different directions depending on whether the Sacraments are understood be the "cause" of God's grace or are understood to be the effect of God's grace.

Grace:
I have read many explanations of Sacramentalism, and all of them mention God's grace. But almost none of them mention how God's grace is objectified or actualized in the believer. Some of them hint at holiness or sanctification.

Assuming God's grace is the sanctification of the believer, some groups believe that the sacraments are the predicate or prerequisite to sanctification. Other groups believe that the sacraments are the believer's response to having already been sanctified.

Cause:
In this case, one must practice the rites in order to be qualified to receive sanctification, which God will grant to those who perform the rites.

Effect:
In this case, God sanctifies the believer first, granting the believer a new heart and in response to a newness of inwardness, the sanctified believer will desire to perform the sacraments as God directs.

Salvation:
Some teachers would go so far as to say that performance of the rites are the prerequisite to salvation and anyone who refuses the rites are anathema.

Catholics argue with Protestants over the Reformation slogan, "Salvation by grace alone." The Catholics will argue, "You may say that salvation is by grace alone, but what you don't understand is that the sacraments are the Biblical means to obtaining Salvation from God. Apart from the rituals and the sacraments, one can not obtain grace and ultimately salvation.

I don't believe the Bible teaches this, but many Catholics do. So we sort this out and hear all sides to make up our minds. :) Thank God for this opportunity.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Ah, okay. I didn’t know that.

@theefaith argues for the efficacy of grace, suggesting that grace is necessary for our works to "bear fruit".

He says for instance, "United to Christ in faith and baptism we are called to employ the grace of God that makes us saints!"
He certainly doesn't need me to clarify his position, but I believe that when a Catholic speaks about "employing grace" he speaks of the sacraments, which are the means to Grace.

The term "saint" comes from the Latin word "sanctus", which means "holy". In the Catholic view, if I am not mistaken, the objectification or actualization of God's grace is holiness.

theefaith doesn't indicate the "fruit" produced by employing grace, but one of the scriptures he quoted stands out as the prime example:

"2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."

"Fruit" is what the farmer expects from the plants he planted. If he plants an apple tree, for instance he expects it to produce apples. What "crop" was Paul expecting to produce? Converts to the Gospel of Christ. And Paul seems to deny that he is ulitmately responsible for the crop of new converts, relying on the power of Christ instead.

theefaith seems to imply that Paul was employing the grace of God, which is why his ministry was effective, i.e. produced fruit -- many converts. But I could be wrong about what theefaith meant to say.

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't believe the Bible teaches this, but many Catholics do. So we sort this out and hear all sides to make up our minds. :) Thank God for this opportunity.

Wow. That's a gem.
Thanks for the very informative post. Most helpful.
I appreciate the effort. Detailed, organized, and understandable. Wow again!

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

HahQuite a plan for humankind, created in God's image.
With full knowledge, forethought, and intent.
Are you saying God is a cosmic tyrant?

At the end of each day in the creation week, God saw that it was good.
Did He slip up somehow? Things were out of His control?

Yes I am saying God is a cosmic tyrant. haha ! oh boy, who thinks up such a thing, but it's good for a laugh.

Oh bagging St Stephen are you.

 

[Gottservant]

The point is Grace completes works by faith, which inspire works in addition to Grace.

Not only are we saved, but we are rewarded for things we haven't even done!

God trusts us, to do what we can!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

@theefaith argues for the efficacy of grace, suggesting that grace is necessary for our works to "bear fruit".

He says for instance, "United to Christ in faith and baptism we are called to employ the grace of God that makes us saints!"
He certainly doesn't need me to clarify his position, but I believe that when a Catholic speaks about "employing grace" he speaks of the sacraments, which are the means to Grace.

The term "saint" comes from the Latin word "sanctus", which means "holy". In the Catholic view, if I am not mistaken, the objectification or actualization of God's grace is holiness.

theefaith doesn't indicate the "fruit" produced by employing grace, but one of the scriptures he quoted stands out as the prime example:

"2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me."

"Fruit" is what the farmer expects from the plants he planted. If he plants an apple tree, for instance he expects it to produce apples. What "crop" was Paul expecting to produce? Converts to the Gospel of Christ. And Paul seems to deny that he is ulitmately responsible for the crop of new converts, relying on the power of Christ instead.

theefaith seems to imply that Paul was employing the grace of God, which is why his ministry was effective, i.e. produced fruit -- many converts. But I could be wrong about what theefaith meant to say.

Yeah, Im kind of seeing that from your last few posts. So then, Catholics might believe (from what you’ve said) that unless you do the rituals outwardly, you don’t experience them in spirit and truth? Because they think the performing outwardly is…the actual thing…?
I’d hazard a guess that a lot of Catholics don’t actually think that but…I only base that on Catholics I’ve actually read like John of the cross and Teresa of Avila.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The point is Grace completes works by faith, which inspire works in addition to Grace.

Not only are we saved, but we are rewarded for things we haven't even done!

God trusts us, to do what we can!

When I see the word grace, I think (mostly) = the power of God to overcome.
So when I read your first sentence here, it leaves me scratching head and I come up with (in my thoughts):
The point is the power of God(grace) does works through our trust(faith), which inspire works in addition to Gods power.
I can’t quite understand what you said…

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yeah, Im kind of seeing that from your last few posts. So then, Catholics might believe (from what you’ve said) that unless you do the rituals outwardly, you don’t experience them in spirit and truth? Because they think the performing outwardly is…the actual thing…?
I’d hazard a guess that a lot of Catholics don’t actually think that but…I only base that on Catholics I’ve actually read like John of the cross and Teresa of Avila.

I found this in Wikipedia
The Catholic Church indicates that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, though not every sacrament is necessary for every individual. The Church applies this teaching even to the sacrament of baptism, the gateway to the other sacraments.


Some web sites say all of them are required. Other websites say that at least two of the sacraments are required: Eucharist and Baptism.

Contrary to Catholic teaching Jesus never taught that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, because Jesus repudiated religion altogether.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Grace requires works to bear fruit!?

This has me interested lately - what, specifically, are those good works, in your opinion? Just like, a brief list to give me an idea.

I don't think Grace requires anything to operate, As God "Gives It Freely".

I do think Scriptural "bearing of fruit" would be a brief "Simplicity Of Christ" list:

1) "Walking In The Spirit, bearing The 'Fruit Of The Spirit'" (Galatians 5:22-23)

2) "Christ Living In us," To Fulfil:

All Of His Law, In ONE Word: ►► love ◄◄ thy neighbor
as thyself!" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)​

Much More Preferable than long (and disagreeing) religious does and don'ts lists. Amen?

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I found this in Wikipedia

Wikipedia isnt the most accurate source, of course you knew that already. :)

The Catholic Church indicates that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, though not every sacrament is necessary for every individual.

We better hope so! At least half of Catholics are women so if circumcision was necessary for salvation…oh wait, I’m going to hazard a guess that they maybe don’t have circumcision as a sacrament because…doctors now perform it and because they would have to come up with something re the women…
If I’m right that they don’t have circumcision as a sacrament, it wold be interesting to see if they EVER did…

Some web sites say all of them are required. Other websites say that at least two of the sacraments are required: Eucharist and Baptism.

Contrary to Catholic teaching Jesus never taught that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, because Jesus repudiated religion altogether.

Well, yeah! Of course HE knew the spirit of the sacraments. we are the ones who are dull and insist on the letter!