Grace

[OzSpen]

I have tried to explain this to some of the Calvinists I know.
I'm sure you also know about how successful I was.

I like the way Paul put it...Christ was in the world, reconciling the world unto Himself.

Thanks.

Whew.
That guy is one ugly dude.
I'm glad to know that isn't you.
I've never been able to figure out why some folks who claim that they don't believe in God, fight so hard against Him...

Right back atcha Sweetie.

In His Love,

The Barrd

The Barrd,

In my last post, I forget to mention a few details about John Dominic Crossan whom you said you had not heard of. He was a former RCC priest who left the priesthood to marry and who taught biblical studies at DePaul University, Chicago for a quarter of a century. He was one of the founders of a liberal and radical Christian organisation, the Jesus Seminar, back in 1985. Crossan has devoted much of his study to the history of the origins of Christianity. His leading publications have been:

• The Historical Jesus (1991. HarperSanFrancisco)
• Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography (1994. HarperSanFrancisco)
• Who Killed Jesus? (1995 HarperSanFrancisco)
• The Birth of Christianity (1998. HarperSanFrancisco)
• Will the Real Jesus Please Stand Up? Debate between William Lane Craig and John Dominic Crossan. Paul Copan (ed) (1998. Baker Books)
• The Power of Parable (2012. HarperOne)
• Etc

However, it’s his anti-biblical, extreme theology of Jesus that gets him lots of publicity – especially around Christmas and Easter. He’s the one who claims,

• Jesus was not buried in Joseph of Arimathea tomb but in a shallow grave and the scavenging dogs were waiting.
• The NT resurrection narratives were not historical documents. History is defined as postmodern reconstruction.
• The divine manifestation of Christianity for a postmodern world needs to be done over and over. So you won't see a permanent view of Christianity but a moving target.
• There was no bodily resurrection of Jesus; the resurrection appearances were apparitions (i.e. ghosts or ghost-like images of a person; like the spirit of a dead person).
• It doesn’t matter if a person believes Jesus’ tomb was full or empty. What is important is the meaning and that is independent of factuality.

Those are the kinds of issues I challenged in my dissertation.

Christian blessings from the bloke with an Aussie accent,
Oz

 

[Barrd]

The Barrd,

In my last post, I forget to mention a few details about John Dominic Crossan whom you said you had not heard of. He was a former RCC priest who left the priesthood to marry and who taught biblical studies at DePaul University, Chicago for a quarter of a century. He was one of the founders of a liberal and radical Christian organisation, the Jesus Seminar, back in 1985. Crossan has devoted much of his study to the history of the origins of Christianity. His leading publications have been:

• The Historical Jesus (1991. HarperSanFrancisco)
• Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography (1994. HarperSanFrancisco)
• Who Killed Jesus? (1995 HarperSanFrancisco)
• The Birth of Christianity (1998. HarperSanFrancisco)
• Will the Real Jesus Please Stand Up? Debate between William Lane Craig and John Dominic Crossan. Paul Copan (ed) (1998. Baker Books)
• The Power of Parable (2012. HarperOne)
• Etc

However, it’s his anti-biblical, extreme theology of Jesus that gets him lots of publicity – especially around Christmas and Easter. He’s the one who claims,

• Jesus was not buried in Joseph of Arimathea tomb but in a shallow grave and the scavenging dogs were waiting.
• The NT resurrection narratives were not historical documents. History is defined as postmodern reconstruction.
• The divine manifestation of Christianity for a postmodern world needs to be done over and over. So you won't see a permanent view of Christianity but a moving target.
• There was no bodily resurrection of Jesus; the resurrection appearances were apparitions (i.e. ghosts or ghost-like images of a person; like the spirit of a dead person).
• It doesn’t matter if a person believes Jesus’ tomb was full or empty. What is important is the meaning and that is independent of factuality.

Those are the kinds of issues I challenged in my dissertation.

This Crossan guy seems to be lacking in wisdom. He needs challenging, and I wish you much success with your dissertation, my Aussie friend.

Christian blessings from the bloke with an Aussie accent,
Oz

Aye, an' I thank ye much, me boyo.
An' here is an auld Welsh blessing that I wish for thee:

May those who love you, love you well.
And those who dinna' love you,
May God turn their hearts;
And if He will na' turn their hearts,
May He turn their ankles,
So you may know them by their limping.

llawer o gariad i chi

Mae'r Barrd

 

[James W]

We hear the word a lot, but are we quite sure we know what it really means?

The best description of Grace that I ever heard follows:



There is a story told from Civil War days before America’s slaves were freed, about a northerner who went to a slave auction and purchased a young slave girl. As they walked away from the auction, the man turned to the girl and told her, “You’re free.”
With amazement she responded, “You mean, I’m free to do whatever I want?”
“Yes,” he said.
“And to say whatever I want to say?”
“Yes, anything.”
“And to be whatever I want to be?”
“Yep.”
“And even go wherever I want to go?”
“Yes,” he answered with a smile. “You’re free to go wherever you’d like.”
She looked at him intently and replied, “Then I will go with you.”
That's grace, and that's the response that only grace can produce.

__________________

I wish I could claim credit for this...it comes from another friend of mine.

Your comments are welcome.

Geetings,
We have all heard and read Grace as unmerited favor but I wanted to add the one example that I love best.
Grace - Gods overwhelming desire to treat us as if sin never happened.
Just wanted share my favorite
God Bless
James

 

[Barrd]

Geetings,
We have all heard and read Grace as unmerited favor but I wanted to add the one example that I love best.
Grace - Gods overwhelming desire to treat us as if sin never happened.
Just wanted share my favorite
God Bless
James

That is so beautiful, James...thanks for posting it.

 

[James W]

That is so beautiful, James...thanks for posting it.

No Problem The Barrd,
Is T.B ok ? Lol I keep wanting to say that when I write something in response to you.
I am blessed knowing it blessed you as it blessed me so bless you !!
Have a great night
James

 

[Zachary]

[SIZE=12pt]"We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]not to receive the grace of God in vain." (2 Corinthians 6:1)[/SIZE]

 

[H. Richard]

And you are quite right....faith without works is dead. And dead faith cannot save anyone.

No such thing as dead faith. A person either has faith that his/her car will start or they don't. And, if a person has faith in the car starting it certainly isn't a dead faith if the car starts. In this the car represents grace.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

The truth is that until a person understands Jesus' revelations to Paul they will never be able to know that grace can't exist with a requirement of works.

The Great You have to take it debate: (I wonder who will read the rest?

It is said that faith is not faith unless it has works as a result. Many use the statement “you have to reach out and take it” as an example of having to do the work of taking the free gift of salvation. --- That is the way a man might see it. However;

“Faith is the substance of things not seen:” Heb 11:1-2 NKJV
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
How can you reach out, with human hands,, and take something that is not seen with the human eye? A child of God does not reach out and take the free gift of salvation, by God’s grace, by physical human actions (works).

An example: ----- A friend of mine knows I need a car to get me to the store and back so he puts his car in my driveway with gas and keys in it. He then calls me to tell me about it. --- I don’t have to look in the driveway to see if there is a car there because I trust in my friend. He wouldn’t tell me it was there if it wasn’t. In other words I have faith, trust, and confidence in my friend. --- The car is a gift, given to me by a friend. It is there ready for me to use. But I don’t need to use it right now. My friend has been a wonderful friend and now I am going to tell everyone I know about him.

----- My friend is Jesus. The car is His salvation and it is not a physical thing that can be obtained physically. ---
Two important things to think about:

1. What if my wife tells me “how can I be sure the car is there unless I go and see.” If I listen to her, and go see, then I have lost my faith, trust, confidence in what my friend told me. My efforts to go and see has not proved my faith, “”It has proven my lack of faith.””

2. What if my wife tells me I need to go and pay my friend some money for the use of his car and I do as she asks? Now I have replaced my friend's offer of a gift with a payment and that makes his gift a paid for item. It is no longer a gift. I have put him in the car rental business.

I believe, I have faith, I trust, I have confidence, in the work that God’s Son, Jesus, accomplished on the cross. When I pass from this life into the next, His work on the cross will allow me to be in heaven with my heavenly Father. It is then that I will need to use His free gift of salvation. It is always mine to use when I pass from this life into the next.

If a person thinks that God owes them something for what they do, then to them, God owes them a payment. It is a work that creates a debt that they think must be paid by God to the worker. This is law. If a person does a work and DOES NOT expect a payment in return then that is a gift. This is grace.

Jesus’ work on the cross was under law and has resulted in God giving Him all power and authority. That is the payment for the work that Jesus did on the cross. Jesus did that work for us, so that we can become children of God “”by faith in His work.””

Today we are not saved under the law of debt and payment. We are saved by God’s grace given to us by the work of His Son on the cross. Given to us by Jesus because He loves us enough to make a plan of salvation that saves sinners and all of mankind are sinners.

 

[Barrd]

No such thing as dead faith. A person either has faith that his/her car will start or they don't. And, if a person has faith in the car starting it certainly isn't a dead faith if the car starts. In this the car represents grace.

Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

The truth is that until a person understands Jesus' revelations to Paul they will never be able to know that grace can't exist with a requirement of works.

The Great You have to take it debate: (I wonder who will read the rest?

It is said that faith is not faith unless it has works as a result. Many use the statement “you have to reach out and take it” as an example of having to do the work of taking the free gift of salvation. --- That is the way a man might see it. However;

“Faith is the substance of things not seen:” Heb 11:1-2 NKJV
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.
How can you reach out, with human hands,, and take something that is not seen with the human eye? A child of God does not reach out and take the free gift of salvation, by God’s grace, by physical human actions (works).

An example: ----- A friend of mine knows I need a car to get me to the store and back so he puts his car in my driveway with gas and keys in it. He then calls me to tell me about it. --- I don’t have to look in the driveway to see if there is a car there because I trust in my friend. He wouldn’t tell me it was there if it wasn’t. In other words I have faith, trust, and confidence in my friend. --- The car is a gift, given to me by a friend. It is there ready for me to use. But I don’t need to use it right now. My friend has been a wonderful friend and now I am going to tell everyone I know about him.

----- My friend is Jesus. The car is His salvation and it is not a physical thing that can be obtained physically. ---
Two important things to think about:

1. What if my wife tells me “how can I be sure the car is there unless I go and see.” If I listen to her, and go see, then I have lost my faith, trust, confidence in what my friend told me. My efforts to go and see has not proved my faith, “”It has proven my lack of faith.””

2. What if my wife tells me I need to go and pay my friend some money for the use of his car and I do as she asks? Now I have replaced my friend's offer of a gift with a payment and that makes his gift a paid for item. It is no longer a gift. I have put him in the car rental business.

I believe, I have faith, I trust, I have confidence, in the work that God’s Son, Jesus, accomplished on the cross. When I pass from this life into the next, His work on the cross will allow me to be in heaven with my heavenly Father. It is then that I will need to use His free gift of salvation. It is always mine to use when I pass from this life into the next.

If a person thinks that God owes them something for what they do, then to them, God owes them a payment. It is a work that creates a debt that they think must be paid by God to the worker. This is law. If a person does a work and DOES NOT expect a payment in return then that is a gift. This is grace.

Jesus’ work on the cross was under law and has resulted in God giving Him all power and authority. That is the payment for the work that Jesus did on the cross. Jesus did that work for us, so that we can become children of God “”by faith in His work.””

Today we are not saved under the law of debt and payment. We are saved by God’s grace given to us by the work of His Son on the cross. Given to us by Jesus because He loves us enough to make a plan of salvation that saves sinners and all of mankind are sinners.

Take it, James:

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

And now we know...

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

On another forum I found what someone had posted about what the Greek word charis means:

The piece is from a book called "Moral Transformation: The Original Christian Paradigm of Salvation" by AJ Wallace.

quote:

Grace', a mistranslated word and misunderstood concept
The word charis, often translated 'grace' is quite heavily used in the New Testament. For many Christians and denominations, particular understandings of 'grace' shape their understanding of Christianity. Even though it means different things to different Christians, 'grace' (charis) is commonly heavily used and an important theological and emotional term. It is therefore, in my view, immensely important to accurately understand the meaning of the Greek word charis as it was understood by the original writers and readers of the New Testament. A multitude of sins, eisegesis, and bad theology, can be built on a misunderstanding of this word.

Amongst Classics scholars there is no debate as to what this word means. Surviving documents from the ancient world contain hundreds of passages that give us great clarity about their understanding of charis and the role this word and its concepts played in their society. Charis was the key-word in what scholars call "the reciprocity system". This system operated according to time-delay exchanges where goods were given and then at a later time goods of relatively equal value were returned to the giver. These goods could be tangible (money, material goods) or intangible (public acclaim, authority). An obligation existed to repay favors owed, they were not 'free' in the sense we would understand it - it is just like when a bank gives you a loan the money is not 'free'. (It is due to this reciprocal nature of the transactions that scholars label it the Reciprocity System.) Essentially the system was an informal system of economics. The word charis itself is best translated with the English "favor" in the sense of talking about favors given and favors repaid. Greek makes no linguistic distinction between the first favor given and the second favor to repay it, calling each a charis. Greek also uses charis to refer to a positive attitude toward someone - we would speak in English of this as "regarding them favorably" or "having their favor".

Of course, a century or more ago, such information simply wasn't available. People interpreting charis in the Bible had to use what information they had and try to make some sense of it. Reformation Christianity is famous for seeing charis as being "free grace" and being the opposite of human effort. These concepts have heavily influenced many Christians' understandings of 'grace' today, but have nothing to do with the actual meaning of charis in Greek. The translation 'grace' is not a good one, it is not 'free', and it isn't the opposite of human effort.

These historical misinterpretations of 'grace' have led to correspondingly incorrect interpretations of passages that use charis. Romans 4, for example, contrasts the Reciprocity System to a Contractual system (a rather subtle contrast) which has historically been exegeted as the difference between human effort and reliance on 'grace'. Similarly Ephesians 2:8, due to the ambiguity in Greek about givers and receivers of favors clarifies that God is the giver of the favor and we the receiver, and yet this has historically been exegeted as speaking about lack of human effort.

So the Greek word charis translated 'grace' refers to economics and a system of reciprocity where favor is extended AND favor is returned.

Biblical application of this would be that God extended favor to man by sending Christ to die on the cross for man's sins (Hebrews 2:9). The favor returned by man is being obedient to Christ (Hebrews 5:9)

God extended favor to Noah to save his household (Hebrews 11:7) and Noah returned the favor by building the ark as instructed.

Some have no problem with the idea that grace means favor extended by God but they do not like the idea man is to return favor. They want God to extend favor to man and man does nothing in return. Returning a favor earns nothing and it an essential part of Bible grace.

 

[brakelite]

On another forum I found what someone had posted about what the Greek word charis means:

The piece is from a book called "Moral Transformation: The Original Christian Paradigm of Salvation" by AJ Wallace.

quote:

Grace', a mistranslated word and misunderstood concept
The word charis, often translated 'grace' is quite heavily used in the New Testament. For many Christians and denominations, particular understandings of 'grace' shape their understanding of Christianity. Even though it means different things to different Christians, 'grace' (charis) is commonly heavily used and an important theological and emotional term. It is therefore, in my view, immensely important to accurately understand the meaning of the Greek word charis as it was understood by the original writers and readers of the New Testament. A multitude of sins, eisegesis, and bad theology, can be built on a misunderstanding of this word.

Amongst Classics scholars there is no debate as to what this word means. Surviving documents from the ancient world contain hundreds of passages that give us great clarity about their understanding of charis and the role this word and its concepts played in their society. Charis was the key-word in what scholars call "the reciprocity system". This system operated according to time-delay exchanges where goods were given and then at a later time goods of relatively equal value were returned to the giver. These goods could be tangible (money, material goods) or intangible (public acclaim, authority). An obligation existed to repay favors owed, they were not 'free' in the sense we would understand it - it is just like when a bank gives you a loan the money is not 'free'. (It is due to this reciprocal nature of the transactions that scholars label it the Reciprocity System.) Essentially the system was an informal system of economics. The word charis itself is best translated with the English "favor" in the sense of talking about favors given and favors repaid. Greek makes no linguistic distinction between the first favor given and the second favor to repay it, calling each a charis. Greek also uses charis to refer to a positive attitude toward someone - we would speak in English of this as "regarding them favorably" or "having their favor".

Of course, a century or more ago, such information simply wasn't available. People interpreting charis in the Bible had to use what information they had and try to make some sense of it. Reformation Christianity is famous for seeing charis as being "free grace" and being the opposite of human effort. These concepts have heavily influenced many Christians' understandings of 'grace' today, but have nothing to do with the actual meaning of charis in Greek. The translation 'grace' is not a good one, it is not 'free', and it isn't the opposite of human effort.

These historical misinterpretations of 'grace' have led to correspondingly incorrect interpretations of passages that use charis. Romans 4, for example, contrasts the Reciprocity System to a Contractual system (a rather subtle contrast) which has historically been exegeted as the difference between human effort and reliance on 'grace'. Similarly Ephesians 2:8, due to the ambiguity in Greek about givers and receivers of favors clarifies that God is the giver of the favor and we the receiver, and yet this has historically been exegeted as speaking about lack of human effort.

So the Greek word charis translated 'grace' refers to economics and a system of reciprocity where favor is extended AND favor is returned.

Biblical application of this would be that God extended favor to man by sending Christ to die on the cross for man's sins (Hebrews 2:9). The favor returned by man is being obedient to Christ (Hebrews 5:9)

God extended favor to Noah to save his household (Hebrews 11:7) and Noah returned the favor by building the ark as instructed.

Some have no problem with the idea that grace means favor extended by God but they do not like the idea man is to return favor. They want God to extend favor to man and man does nothing in return. Returning a favor earns nothing and it an essential part of Bible grace.

Agreed. Romans 12:1 is our response to Calvary.