Has the church got Genesis all wrong?

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Wick Stick

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The church views Genesis as a single, literal, historical, chronological, mostly first-hand account stretching from the beginning of the universe to the beginning of the nation of Israel. The academic community disagrees. It sees Genesis as a compilation of works, some of them mythological, and cobbled together well after-the-fact. Who is right?

Here, I'd like to explore some of the ideas coming from academic disciplines - archaeology, anthropology, Assyriology, Biblical criticism, and comparative religion.

Idea #1 - The Kenite Hypothesis

When God laid the foundations of the earth, and made the clouds its garments, and when the morning stars sang together (Job 38)... Moses wasn't there. When Noah brought the animals into the ark 2-by-2, and the door was shut and the fountains of the deep broke forth... Moses wasn't sitting in the crow's nest taking notes. And when Abraham met the LORD of all creation and cut a covenant in which he was promised to become a father of nations... Moses was absent.

But Moses writes about all these things. How did he know? He must have got information from someone else. But who?

The Kenite Hypothesis supposes that the whole religion of Moses - the worship of Yahweh - comes from the Kenites, along with many/most of the foundational documents that make up the book of Genesis. That's a big claim. Why?

Exodus 3:1 tells us that Moses married the daughter of Jethro, who was "The Priest of Midian." In Judges 1, we find out that Jethro was not a Midianite, but a Kenite. 1Ch 2:55 tells us that his descendants included 3 clans of scribes. It seems likely that a clan of scribes had written records. And Moses, as the son-in-law of the priest... he had access. He lived as part of their tribe for 40 years.

When Moses encountered God on Mt Horeb, it was in their territory. When he was sent back to Egypt to liberate his people... it was as a priest, like his father-in-law. Once the Israelites come out of Egypt, Moses marches them straight back to that same mountain, and before they meet God... they meet Jethro. Upon the meeting, Moses himself says, "the God of my father was mine help, and delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh." (Exodus 18) It seems that the father in question was Jethro, and so the God in question is the God of Jethro.

The rest of Exodus 18 is worth a read. Moses does obeisance to Jethro. Jethro blesses Moses. Jethro offers sacrifices for Moses and Aaron (who won't be anointed priest for about 12 more chapters). Jethro gives Moses the Israelites whole system of judges, and...

Exodus 18:14 - So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said.

And this continues with the later Kenites. They seem to have allied themselves to Israel in the wilderness (Judges 1). When each tribe of Israel sent a spy into the Promised Land (Numbers 13), the representative for Judah... Caleb... was actually a Kenite (Judges 1). When Judah had been conquered, Caleb and his family were allotted cities alongside the Jews, including Hebron, which then became the first capital of Judah. The first Judge of Israel in the book of Judges, Othniel, was a Kenite (Judges 3).

Other parts of the Bible seem to confirm a southern origin for the Lord Himself. Habakkuk 3 says "God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran." But Teman is the region of the Kenites, and Mt Paran is a stronghold of Edom; not Israel. The Kenites are one of the tribes of the Edomites (Genesis 36, Numbers 24). In Zechariah 9, the Lord is seen to come from Teman on whirlwinds. The whole book of Job is set in the land of Uz, again a part of Edom. Job's friend Eliphaz comes to comfort him, and Eliphaz is also from Teman, the Kenite homeland.

Archaeology lends support to the idea as well. In the 1970's, inscriptions were found at Kuntillet Ajrud (in the Sinai peninsula) that refer to "Yahweh of Teman."

But this creates a problem. If the history that Moses delivered to us comes from the Kenites, then how can it be the history of Israel?

The claim that all-of-the-things that come to us from Moses and Israel, really come from Jethro and his Kenites, isn't so easily dismissed.
 

Papa Smurf

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Hello @Wick Stick, I'll have to wait until later to comment, but I thought having Exodus 18 posted here would be beneficial to the discussion, so here it is.

Exodus 18 (NASB 95')
1 Now Jethro, the priest of Midian, Moses’ father-in-law, heard of all that God had done for Moses and for Israel His people, how the LORD had brought Israel out of Egypt.
2 Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, took Moses’ wife Zipporah, after he had sent her away,
3 and her two sons, of whom one was named Gershom, for Moses said, “I have been a sojourner in a foreign land.”
4 The other was named Eliezer, for he said, “The God of my father was my help, and delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh.”
5 Then Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, came with his sons and his wife to Moses in the wilderness where he was camped, at the mount of God.
6 He sent word to Moses, “I, your father-in-law Jethro, am coming to you with your wife and her two sons with her.”
7 Then Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and he bowed down and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare and went into the tent.
8 Moses told his father-in-law all that the LORD had done to Pharaoh and to the Egyptians for Israel’s sake, all the hardship that had befallen them on the journey, and how the LORD had delivered them.
9 Jethro rejoiced over all the goodness which the LORD had done to Israel, in delivering them from the hand of the Egyptians.
10 So Jethro said, “Blessed be the LORD who delivered you from the hand of the Egyptians and from the hand of Pharaoh, and who delivered the people from under the hand of the Egyptians.
11 “Now I know that the LORD is greater than all the gods; indeed, it was proven when they dealt proudly against the people.”
12 Then Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God, and Aaron came with all the elders of Israel to eat a meal with Moses’ father-in-law before God.
13 It came about the next day that Moses sat to judge the people, and the people stood about Moses from the morning until the evening.
14 Now when Moses’ father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he said, “What is this thing that you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge and all the people stand about you from morning until evening?”
15 Moses said to his father-in-law, “Because the people come to me to inquire of God.
16 “When they have a dispute, it comes to me, and I judge between a man and his neighbor and make known the statutes of God and His laws.”
17 Moses’ father-in-law said to him, “The thing that you are doing is not good.
18 “You will surely wear out, both yourself and these people who are with you, for the task is too heavy for you; you cannot do it alone.
19 “Now listen to me: I will give you counsel, and God be with you. You be the people’s representative before God, and you bring the disputes to God,
20 then teach them the statutes and the laws, and make known to them the way in which they are to walk and the work they are to do.
21 “Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens.
22 “Let them judge the people at all times; and let it be that every major dispute they will bring to you, but every minor dispute they themselves will judge. So it will be easier for you, and they will bear the burden with you.
23 “If you do this thing and God so commands you, then you will be able to endure, and all these people also will go to their place in peace.”
24 So Moses listened to his father-in-law and did all that he had said.
25 Moses chose able men out of all Israel and made them heads over the people, leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens.
26 They judged the people at all times; the difficult dispute they would bring to Moses, but every minor dispute they themselves would judge.
27 Then Moses bade his father-in-law farewell, and he went his way into his own land.

--Papa Smurf
.
 

Gottservant

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The church views Genesis as a single, literal, historical, chronological, mostly first-hand account stretching from the beginning of the universe to the beginning of the nation of Israel.

[...]


The claim that all-of-the-things that come to us from Moses and Israel, really come from Jethro and his Kenites, isn't so easily dismissed.
I don't understand, why can Israel not accept that its history was adopted?

Do Gentiles object to being grafted on with Israel, because Israel had faith already?
 

BeyondET

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When Moses encountered God on Mt Horeb, it was in their territory. When he was sent back to Egypt to liberate his people... it was as a priest, like his father-in-law. Once the Israelites come out of Egypt, Moses marches them straight back to that same mountain, and before they meet God... they meet Jethro. Upon the meeting, Moses himself says, "the God of my father was mine help, and delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh." (Exodus 18) It seems that the father in question was Jethro, and so the God in question is the God of Jethro.
Why wouldn't Amram be Moses father. It does have a interesting meaning.
 

St. SteVen

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Great topic. thanks.
the God in question is the God of Jethro.
Wow. That's a heavy thought.

But this creates a problem. If the history that Moses delivered to us comes from the Kenites, then how can it be the history of Israel?

The claim that all-of-the-things that come to us from Moses and Israel, really come from Jethro and his Kenites, isn't so easily dismissed.
Yes. So little is said about the Kenites. Odd, given the importance.
 
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Wick Stick

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I don't understand, why can Israel not accept that its history was adopted?

Do Gentiles object to being grafted on with Israel, because Israel had faith already?
I don't think Judaism has a problem with this. Judaism prioritizes tradition over truth. I kinda hate how that sounds, but unfortunately I think it's true.

The problem is for those who hold to the idea that Genesis is literal. It isn't obvious in my original post, but it calls into question a few parts of Genesis. I'll probably make another post to explain that more.
 
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BeyondET

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In the chapter it's Jethro who becomes a true believer in the LORD. And might be an example of how long it takes for God to use someone for His purposes.

Exodus 18
1Now Moses’ father-in-law Jethro, the priest of Midian, heard about all that God had done for Moses and His people Israel, and how the LORD had brought Israel out of Egypt.

9 And Jethro rejoiced over all the good things the LORD had done for Israel, whom He had rescued from the hand of the Egyptians. 10 Jethro declared, “Blessed be the LORD, who has delivered you from the hand of the Egyptians and of Pharaoh, and who has delivered the people from the hand of the Egyptians.

11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for He did this when they treated Israel with arrogance.”
 

Wick Stick

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Why wouldn't Amram be Moses father. It does have a interesting meaning.
It isn't explicit, but... context.

Nobody thinks it's talking about Pharoah here, even though he is Moses' adopted father. Context steers us away from that interpretation.

The context here should point us strongly towards Jethro. This aim of the chapter seems to be to impress on us the greatness of Jethro. Moses does obeisance to him. Jethro blesses Moses, demonstrating his higher position. Jethro is the one who offers the sacrifices, though Aaron is with them.

So, did the author decide to throw in a random quip about Moses "real dad" right at the moment he was meeting Jethro? Or, is the comment about Jethro?.. in which case it supports the author's thesis.
 
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BeyondET

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It isn't explicit, but... context.

Nobody thinks it's talking about Pharoah here, even though he is Moses' adopted father. Context steers us away from that interpretation.

The context here should point us strongly towards Jethro. This aim of the chapter seems to be to impress on us the greatness of Jethro. Moses does obeisance to him. Jethro blesses Moses, demonstrating his higher position. Jethro is the one who offers the sacrifices, though Aaron is with them.

So, did the author decide to throw in a random quip about Moses "real dad" right at the moment he was meeting Jethro? Or, is the comment about Jethro?.. in which case it supports the author's thesis.
Jethro was a preist in the Druze religion of that Time. And yes he became a believer and offered sacrifices with witnesses people with him.

Jethro had some good advice for Moses nothing wrong with that.

The sayings have to do with Moses sons,

Both Gershom and Eliezer were born during the time Moses had taken refuge in Midian and had married Jethro’s daughter, Zipporah

Amram means a people exalted
 
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Wick Stick

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Jethro was a preist in the Druze religion of that Time. And yes he became a believer and offered sacrifices with witnesses people with him.
The Druze religion I've heard of didn't exist til two thousand years later. Is there another Druze religion? Or, where did you read that?

Also, I went to the Druze wikipedia page and remembered being there before. I may need to go touch grass.

Jethro had some good advice for Moses nothing wrong with that.

The sayings have to do with Moses sons,

Both Gershom and Eliezer were born during the time Moses had taken refuge in Midian and had married Jethro’s daughter, Zipporah

Amram means a people exalted
Jethro means "his excellency." Haha it sounds like a contest now. :jest:
 
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BeyondET

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The Druze religion I've heard of didn't exist til two thousand years later. Is there another Druze religion? Or, where did you read that?

Also, I went to the Druze wikipedia page and remembered being there before. I may need to go touch grass.


Jethro means "his excellency." Haha it sounds like a contest now. :jest:
Yes Jethro does mean that. I don't think Hebrew leaders of those times were called preist, though I could be mistaken.

In Islam he is mentioned in the Quran as a prophet who was sent to the city of Midian. His people were destroyed because of their corruption.
 
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Wick Stick

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I don't think Hebrew leaders of those times were called preist, though I could be mistaken.
They were called kohen from the beginning, which is usually translated priest.
In Islam he is mentioned in the Quran as a prophet who was sent to the city of Midian. His people were destroyed because of their corruption.
In the Bible, his descendants join the invasion of the Promised Land, where they are singled out for their bravery and awarded important cities in Judea as their portion among the Israelites inheritance.

Also, when you say "his people", do you mean the Midianites or the Kenites?
 
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BeyondET

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They were called kohen from the beginning, which is usually translated priest.

In the Bible, his descendants join the invasion of the Promised Land, where they are singled out for their bravery and awarded important cities in Judea as their portion among the Israelites inheritance.

Also, when you say his people, do you mean the Midianites or the Kenites?
It appears that time with moses He was converted. Interestingly the Quran says Midian was a place of corruption. I'm thinking the Jewish faith was spreading. After Jethro heard of all what the Lord did for Isreal the exodus and meeting with Moses he says this below "Now he knows". Went back to Midian and the word spread.


11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for He did this when they treated Israel with arrogance.”
 
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Wick Stick

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It appears that time with moses He was converted. Interestingly the Quran says Midian was a place of corruption. I'm thinking the Jewish faith was spreading. After Jethro heard of all what the Lord did for Isreal the exodus and meeting with Moses he says this below "Now he knows". Went back to Midian and the word spread.

11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for He did this when they treated Israel with arrogance.”
Jethro wasn't a Midianite.

He was a Kenite, and because he was a priest he was living among the Midianites. Kind of like how the priests of Judah were actually Levites rather than Jews...
 

BeyondET

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Jethro wasn't a Midianite.

He was a Kenite, and because he was a priest he was living among the Midianites. Kind of like how the priests of Judah were actually Levites rather than Jews...
I didn't say he was,

He excepted the other gods concept until he learned there was only one great God.

11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for He did this when they treated Israel with arrogance.”
 

quietthinker

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The church views Genesis as a single, literal, historical, chronological, mostly first-hand account stretching from the beginning of the universe to the beginning of the nation of Israel. The academic community disagrees. It sees Genesis as a compilation of works, some of them mythological, and cobbled together well after-the-fact. Who is right?

Here, I'd like to explore some of the ideas coming from academic disciplines - archaeology, anthropology, Assyriology, Biblical criticism, and comparative religion.

Idea #1 - The Kenite Hypothesis

When God laid the foundations of the earth, and made the clouds its garments, and when the morning stars sang together (Job 38)... Moses wasn't there. When Noah brought the animals into the ark 2-by-2, and the door was shut and the fountains of the deep broke forth... Moses wasn't sitting in the crow's nest taking notes. And when Abraham met the LORD of all creation and cut a covenant in which he was promised to become a father of nations... Moses was absent.

But Moses writes about all these things. How did he know? He must have got information from someone else. But who?

The Kenite Hypothesis supposes that the whole religion of Moses - the worship of Yahweh - comes from the Kenites, along with many/most of the foundational documents that make up the book of Genesis. That's a big claim. Why?

Exodus 3:1 tells us that Moses married the daughter of Jethro, who was "The Priest of Midian." In Judges 1, we find out that Jethro was not a Midianite, but a Kenite. 1Ch 2:55 tells us that his descendants included 3 clans of scribes. It seems likely that a clan of scribes had written records. And Moses, as the son-in-law of the priest... he had access. He lived as part of their tribe for 40 years.

When Moses encountered God on Mt Horeb, it was in their territory. When he was sent back to Egypt to liberate his people... it was as a priest, like his father-in-law. Once the Israelites come out of Egypt, Moses marches them straight back to that same mountain, and before they meet God... they meet Jethro. Upon the meeting, Moses himself says, "the God of my father was mine help, and delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh." (Exodus 18) It seems that the father in question was Jethro, and so the God in question is the God of Jethro.

The rest of Exodus 18 is worth a read. Moses does obeisance to Jethro. Jethro blesses Moses. Jethro offers sacrifices for Moses and Aaron (who won't be anointed priest for about 12 more chapters). Jethro gives Moses the Israelites whole system of judges, and...

Exodus 18:14 - So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said.

And this continues with the later Kenites. They seem to have allied themselves to Israel in the wilderness (Judges 1). When each tribe of Israel sent a spy into the Promised Land (Numbers 13), the representative for Judah... Caleb... was actually a Kenite (Judges 1). When Judah had been conquered, Caleb and his family were allotted cities alongside the Jews, including Hebron, which then became the first capital of Judah. The first Judge of Israel in the book of Judges, Othniel, was a Kenite (Judges 3).

Other parts of the Bible seem to confirm a southern origin for the Lord Himself. Habakkuk 3 says "God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran." But Teman is the region of the Kenites, and Mt Paran is a stronghold of Edom; not Israel. The Kenites are one of the tribes of the Edomites (Genesis 36, Numbers 24). In Zechariah 9, the Lord is seen to come from Teman on whirlwinds. The whole book of Job is set in the land of Uz, again a part of Edom. Job's friend Eliphaz comes to comfort him, and Eliphaz is also from Teman, the Kenite homeland.

Archaeology lends support to the idea as well. In the 1970's, inscriptions were found at Kuntillet Ajrud (in the Sinai peninsula) that refer to "Yahweh of Teman."

But this creates a problem. If the history that Moses delivered to us comes from the Kenites, then how can it be the history of Israel?

The claim that all-of-the-things that come to us from Moses and Israel, really come from Jethro and his Kenites, isn't so easily dismissed.
History passed down orally is probably likely, but tell me, what is it that you think is mythological ?
 

Windmillcharge

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Here, I'd like to explore some of the ideas coming from academic disciplines - archaeology, anthropology, Assyriology, Biblical criticism, and comparative religion.
It5 always good to examine ideas from multiple view points, but one has to be aware of the biases and prejudices of the authors.
You are looking at largely atheist academics who start from a position of disbelieving the bible.

Two suggestions, 1, the Israeli test knew about God from his speaking to Abraham and to Joseph, there first e counter with God was not through Moses etc.
2nd check out the writtings of Prof Robert ' dick' Wilson and his studies of the language, grammar and development of words etc as found in the middle East inscriptions and in the penituch.
 

Wick Stick

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He accepted the other gods concept until he learned there was only one great God.
I'm pretty sure that isn't in the Bible. Are you getting that from somewhere else?
11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all other gods, for He did this when they treated Israel with arrogance.”
You're putting too much into the word "now" in this verse. Jethro had been a priest of God for many years before this.

I think if you look at the word "know" closely, you'll find that the Hebrew has this as perfect tense (usually translated in past tense but apparently not this time).

The sense of the verse is more like "now I have seen it!" rather than "gosh darn I didn't know that!"

Jarrod
 
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Wick Stick

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History passed down orally is probably likely, but tell me, what is it that you think is mythological ?
Have you ever heard of Euhemerism? It's when a myth has a basis in history. Kind of what I would expect from history that had been orally transmitted for a while.

So anyway, if most of Genesis comes from the Edomites and Kenites... the names Adam & Cain look an awful lot like the names Edom & Ken.

The stories are similar too.

Adam gets kicked out of Eden. Edom is sent away from his his homeland because he sells his birthright.
Adam's wife leads him into sin. Edom marries a couple foreign wives and they turn out to be a problem (Gen 28).
Cain is sent out into the Wilderness to wander because of his sin. The Kenites live in the Wilderness of Zin.
The ground is cursed because of Adam's sin. The Kenites' descendants have sworn an oath against farming (Jer 35).

There's a non-zero chance that the stories of Adam & Eve and Cain & Abel recap the history of the Edomites & Kenites. In which case, they aren't the history of the beginning of mankind, just of the Edomites.

-Jarrod