Has the church got Genesis all wrong?

[St. SteVen]

You might be missing the fact also that Moses was an adult when he fled Egypt. He was raised and educated in Pharaoh's royal household, no doubt taught the histories and mysteries from the Egyptian library records by the finest instructors. Your assumption that his source material came to him from Edomites, Kenites or Midianites is premised on the idea that he wasn't taught the Genesis story even as a boy in Egypt.

Have you ever heard of the Shabaka Stone?

Interesting.
Are you saying that the Egyptians had a Genesis account?
Wasn't their primary god the Sun?

/

 

[Mr E]

Interesting.
Are you saying that the Egyptians had a Genesis account?
Wasn't their primary god the Sun?

/

The Egyptians it seems, were able to hold seemingly contradictory views of the creation events at the same time. Much like our world today where there are opposing views of how things came to be, with some people recognizing a creator-God, the presence of competitive-- 'lessor gods,' a 'big bang' or some natural evolution. In Egypt, we see evidence of a variety of explanations concerning the means employed by the creator-gods in their creation, and the condition of the primordial state at the beginning of creation.

It's quite all-encompassing, just as things remain today- quite unsettled and mostly unexplained in any sort of manner that might settle the matter. But neither is it weird. Genesis (the Moses account) itself gives two distinct creation stories, one different from the other.

There are three ancient Egyptian narratives, all three of which precede Moses, who would have been taught all three understandings. Aspects of each of these three elements have parallels in the Moses creation account as recorded in Genesis.

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic available. (shameless self-promotion)

If our interpretation of scripture sidesteps common sense, did we get it right?

/

 

[Wick Stick]

You might be missing the fact also that Moses was an adult when he fled Egypt. He was raised and educated in Pharaoh's royal household, no doubt taught the histories and mysteries from the Egyptian library records by the finest instructors.

This is explicit in the Bible. No quarrels from me.

Your assumption that his source material came to him from Edomites, Kenites or Midianites is premised on the idea that he wasn't taught the Genesis story even as a boy in Egypt.

The hypothesis that Moses' source material came from the Edomites/Kenites (which is not my idea) is based on critical analysis of the text of Genesis paired with history, archaeology and comparative religion studies.

In the Bible, there is more than the explicit relationship between Moses and Jethro. There is also a coincidence of names. Adam and Edom are the same word in Hebrew... only the translator has made them different. Kenites and Kenazites and Kennizites are all similar. There is a coincidence of stories. The relationship between Adam & Cain and Edom & Kenaz is similar. Both inhabit the same area geographically (southern Lebanon), and then are exiled from that area for similar reasons (they sinned), and are then sent into the same geographic area (the Negev wilderness). The ground is cursed because of Adam. The Edomites have a vow against farming. Cain means "smith." The Kenites were literally copper smiths. How many coincidences does it take before we stop calling it a coincidence?

As touches archaeology, the name YHVH has been found in Egyptian records as a deity of Edom, specifically of the city of Teman. The Bible also declares "the LORD came from Teman" (Habakkuk 3). Teman was a grandson of Esau/Edom (Gen 36), and the city bearing his name was the most prominent in Edom for a time.

Comparative religion tells us that the stories in Genesis didn't come from Egypt. We have the Egyptian's stories and myths. They don't look like the Bible stories. On the other hand, we also have the stories and myths of Ugarit, Urartu, Assyria, Babylon and Sumer. These look very similar to the stories in Genesis. It's a virtual certainty that they have common origins.

Have you ever heard of the Shabaka Stone?

View attachment 37680

Not til today. I went and read the wikipedia article. I'm guessing you have more to say about it than that, though?

 

[Wick Stick]

The Egyptians it seems, were able to hold seemingly contradictory views of the creation events at the same time. Much like our world today where there are opposing views of how things came to be, with some people recognizing a creator-God, the presence of competitive-- 'lessor gods,' a 'big bang' or some natural evolution. In Egypt, we see evidence of a variety of explanations concerning the means employed by the creator-gods in their creation, and the condition of the primordial state at the beginning of creation.

It's quite all-encompassing, just as things remain today- quite unsettled and mostly unexplained in any sort of manner that might settle the matter. But neither is it weird. Genesis (the Moses account) itself gives two distinct creation stories, one different from the other.

There are three ancient Egyptian narratives, all three of which precede Moses, who would have been taught all three understandings. Aspects of each of these three elements have parallels in the Moses creation account as recorded in Genesis.

Can you expand on this? I've read somewhat on the religion of Egypt/Kemet and Nubia and Kush, and I didn't identify much of anything in common with the Bible?

 

[Zao is life]

This is explicit in the Bible. No quarrels from me.

The hypothesis that Moses' source material came from the Edomites/Kenites (which is not my idea) is based on critical analysis of the text of Genesis paired with history, archaeology and comparative religion studies.

In the Bible, there is more than the explicit relationship between Moses and Jethro. There is also a coincidence of names. Adam and Edom are the same word in Hebrew... only the translator has made them different. Kenites and Kenazites and Kennizites are all similar. There is a coincidence of stories. The relationship between Adam & Cain and Edom & Kenaz is similar. Both inhabit the same area geographically (southern Lebanon), and then are exiled from that area for similar reasons (they sinned), and are then sent into the same geographic area (the Negev wilderness). The ground is cursed because of Adam. The Edomites have a vow against farming. Cain means "smith." The Kenites were literally copper smiths. How many coincidences does it take before we stop calling it a coincidence?

As touches archaeology, the name YHVH has been found in Egyptian records as a deity of Edom, specifically of the city of Teman. The Bible also declares "the LORD came from Teman" (Habakkuk 3). Teman was a grandson of Esau/Edom (Gen 36), and the city bearing his name was the most prominent in Edom for a time.

Comparative religion tells us that the stories in Genesis didn't come from Egypt. We have the Egyptian's stories and myths. They don't look like the Bible stories. On the other hand, we also have the stories and myths of Ugarit, Urartu, Assyria, Babylon and Sumer. These look very similar to the stories in Genesis. It's a virtual certainty that they have common origins.


Not til today. I went and read the wikipedia article. I'm guessing you have more to say about it than that, though?

I don't think there is a coincidence between the similarities between what God said to ishah (the woman) about her seed (Gen.3:15) and the worship of ishtar and her seed either.

Because I believe the Bible, I believe there is an original revelation handed down from Adam to Seth to Noah to Abraham, and to Moses. The nations surrounding Babel have their own versions of it.

 

[Wick Stick]

I don't think there is a coincidence between the similarities between what God said to ishah (the woman) about her seed (Gen.3:15) and the worship of ishtar and her seed either.

Well, here's a perplexing thing for you to ponder.

Normally, when the Bible is translated, names are exempt from translation (they are transliterated instead).

Not Eve. When Genesis was translated into Greek (1st century BC), instead they translated her name as Zoe, which is the name of a Greek goddess. Now why did they do that?

 

[Zao is life]

Well, here's a perplexing thing for you to ponder.

Normally, when the Bible is translated, names are exempt from translation (they are transliterated instead).

Not Eve. When Genesis was translated into Greek (1st century BC), instead they translated her name as Zoe, which is the name of a Greek goddess. Now why did they do that?

Would be good to know what the translator's reasons were. Wasn't it Jews who translated the Bible into the Greek Septuaginta?

 

[The Learner]

The church views Genesis as a single, literal, historical, chronological, mostly first-hand account stretching from the beginning of the universe to the beginning of the nation of Israel. The academic community disagrees. It sees Genesis as a compilation of works, some of them mythological, and cobbled together well after-the-fact. Who is right?

Here, I'd like to explore some of the ideas coming from academic disciplines - archaeology, anthropology, Assyriology, Biblical criticism, and comparative religion.

Idea #1 - The Kenite Hypothesis

When God laid the foundations of the earth, and made the clouds its garments, and when the morning stars sang together (Job 38)... Moses wasn't there. When Noah brought the animals into the ark 2-by-2, and the door was shut and the fountains of the deep broke forth... Moses wasn't sitting in the crow's nest taking notes. And when Abraham met the LORD of all creation and cut a covenant in which he was promised to become a father of nations... Moses was absent.

But Moses writes about all these things. How did he know? He must have got information from someone else. But who?

The Kenite Hypothesis supposes that the whole religion of Moses - the worship of Yahweh - comes from the Kenites, along with many/most of the foundational documents that make up the book of Genesis. That's a big claim. Why?

Exodus 3:1 tells us that Moses married the daughter of Jethro, who was "The Priest of Midian." In Judges 1, we find out that Jethro was not a Midianite, but a Kenite. 1Ch 2:55 tells us that his descendants included 3 clans of scribes. It seems likely that a clan of scribes had written records. And Moses, as the son-in-law of the priest... he had access. He lived as part of their tribe for 40 years.

When Moses encountered God on Mt Horeb, it was in their territory. When he was sent back to Egypt to liberate his people... it was as a priest, like his father-in-law. Once the Israelites come out of Egypt, Moses marches them straight back to that same mountain, and before they meet God... they meet Jethro. Upon the meeting, Moses himself says, "the God of my father was mine help, and delivered me from the sword of Pharaoh." (Exodus 18) It seems that the father in question was Jethro, and so the God in question is the God of Jethro.

The rest of Exodus 18 is worth a read. Moses does obeisance to Jethro. Jethro blesses Moses. Jethro offers sacrifices for Moses and Aaron (who won't be anointed priest for about 12 more chapters). Jethro gives Moses the Israelites whole system of judges, and...

Exodus 18:14 - So Moses hearkened to the voice of his father in law, and did all that he had said.

And this continues with the later Kenites. They seem to have allied themselves to Israel in the wilderness (Judges 1). When each tribe of Israel sent a spy into the Promised Land (Numbers 13), the representative for Judah... Caleb... was actually a Kenite (Judges 1). When Judah had been conquered, Caleb and his family were allotted cities alongside the Jews, including Hebron, which then became the first capital of Judah. The first Judge of Israel in the book of Judges, Othniel, was a Kenite (Judges 3).

Other parts of the Bible seem to confirm a southern origin for the Lord Himself. Habakkuk 3 says "God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran." But Teman is the region of the Kenites, and Mt Paran is a stronghold of Edom; not Israel. The Kenites are one of the tribes of the Edomites (Genesis 36, Numbers 24). In Zechariah 9, the Lord is seen to come from Teman on whirlwinds. The whole book of Job is set in the land of Uz, again a part of Edom. Job's friend Eliphaz comes to comfort him, and Eliphaz is also from Teman, the Kenite homeland.

Archaeology lends support to the idea as well. In the 1970's, inscriptions were found at Kuntillet Ajrud (in the Sinai peninsula) that refer to "Yahweh of Teman."

But this creates a problem. If the history that Moses delivered to us comes from the Kenites, then how can it be the history of Israel?

The claim that all-of-the-things that come to us from Moses and Israel, really come from Jethro and his Kenites, isn't so easily dismissed.

what books is all that coming from?

 

[Wick Stick]

what books is all that coming from?

I don't exactly have a comprehensive bibliography that I've been preparing.

The Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible would definitely be on the list, though. Other than that it mostly comes from conversations on forums like these, and /r/AcademicBiblical, and reading archaeological reports. Oh! Midian, Moab and Edom (Sawyer) is a good archaeological reference for Midianite pottery. There's a report on Timna (not sure if in this book or elsewhere) that seems important.

 

[The Learner]

I don't exactly have a comprehensive bibliography that I've been preparing.

The Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible would definitely be on the list, though. Other than that it mostly comes from conversations on forums like these, and /r/AcademicBiblical, and reading archaeological reports. Oh! Midian, Moab and Edom (Sawyer) is a good archaeological reference for Midianite pottery. There's a report on Timna (not sure if in this book or elsewhere) that seems important.

Thank You Brother, friend

 

[Mr E]

Can you expand on this? I've read somewhat on the religion of Egypt/Kemet and Nubia and Kush, and I didn't identify much of anything in common with the Bible?

Sure-

Let me offer just a few samplings of ideas that Moses grew up with...

In Memphis (the other Memphis) -Memphite theology has the god Ptah create the world by divine word. The world comes into existence by divine command. It is spoken, and it is done. The parallel is between Egyptian cosmology and Genesis 1:1-2:3 where in the Genesis account we read over and over, that God said it and so it was done.

Then, as a second example- Khnum creates man on his potter’s wheel. Stop me if you've heard this one.

The motif is God as the potter and man as the clay, and we see this idea in Genesis as God forms Adam from earth. While Genesis doesn't explicitly state that God is a potter, the parallel is impossible to miss. Furthermore, the idea is developed in precisely these terms elsewhere in the Old Testament in places like Job which concludes that everyone is formed like clay on a potter's wheel. Following that forming, both the Egyptian and the Hebrew texts use the phrase “breath of life” to describe the life-giving force that the deity infused into the nostrils of the clay figure. While the earlier Genesis passage I mentioned shows God creating by divine word, Genesis 2:4-25 offers a completely different perspective where God creates by forming.

Finally, as the third theological concept introduced by Egyptian precedence to Moses- this one is a little more obscure and nuanced. Atum, "seeds" the world into existence by means of self-copulation. It has no direct parallel to anything similar in the Genesis account (unless you are willing to infer). Here's the rub. It's not a stretch to see the Ptah theology combined with the Khnum understanding and these two mesh together in this Atum example. The world is imagined, commanded to be, then formed. If one simply dismisses the idea of the Genesis God seeding mankind, one would have to dismiss much of scripture including the very teachings of Jesus, the Christ.

 

[Mr E]

This is explicit in the Bible. No quarrels from me.

The hypothesis that Moses' source material came from the Edomites/Kenites (which is not my idea) is based on critical analysis of the text of Genesis paired with history, archaeology and comparative religion studies.

In the Bible, there is more than the explicit relationship between Moses and Jethro. There is also a coincidence of names. Adam and Edom are the same word in Hebrew... only the translator has made them different. Kenites and Kenazites and Kennizites are all similar. There is a coincidence of stories. The relationship between Adam & Cain and Edom & Kenaz is similar. Both inhabit the same area geographically (southern Lebanon), and then are exiled from that area for similar reasons (they sinned), and are then sent into the same geographic area (the Negev wilderness). The ground is cursed because of Adam. The Edomites have a vow against farming. Cain means "smith." The Kenites were literally copper smiths. How many coincidences does it take before we stop calling it a coincidence?

As touches archaeology, the name YHVH has been found in Egyptian records as a deity of Edom, specifically of the city of Teman. The Bible also declares "the LORD came from Teman" (Habakkuk 3). Teman was a grandson of Esau/Edom (Gen 36), and the city bearing his name was the most prominent in Edom for a time.

Comparative religion tells us that the stories in Genesis didn't come from Egypt. We have the Egyptian's stories and myths. They don't look like the Bible stories. On the other hand, we also have the stories and myths of Ugarit, Urartu, Assyria, Babylon and Sumer. These look very similar to the stories in Genesis. It's a virtual certainty that they have common origins.


Not til today. I went and read the wikipedia article. I'm guessing you have more to say about it than that, though?

The Shabaka stone is a telling of the creation story where Ptah speaks the world into existence. He is depicted wearing a skull cap on his head.... interesting concept that relates to household idols (see Genesis 31:19 --teraphim).

As far as parallel names are concerned- how about Adam and Atum? Most people recognize the Egyptian supreme god as Ra-- but it's actually Atum Ra. God, the sun, while Adam becomes the son (and seed) of God.

 

[Cassandra]

When God laid the foundations of the earth, and made the clouds its garments, and when the morning stars sang together (Job 38)... Moses wasn't there. When Noah brought the animals into the ark 2-by-2, and the door was shut and the fountains of the deep broke forth... Moses wasn't sitting in the crow's nest taking notes. And when Abraham met the LORD of all creation and cut a covenant in which he was promised to become a father of nations... Moses was absent.

But Moses writes about all these things. How did he know? He must have got information from someone else. But who?

(Raises hand )

Let me guess!!
How ab0ut the One who created all of it, and who talked to Abraham Himself!

 

[Wick Stick]

In Memphis (the other Memphis) -Memphite theology has the god Ptah create the world by divine word. The world comes into existence by divine command. It is spoken, and it is done. The parallel is between Egyptian cosmology and Genesis 1:1-2:3 where in the Genesis account we read over and over, that God said it and so it was done.

Then, as a second example- Khnum creates man on his potter’s wheel. Stop me if you've heard this one.

The motif is God as the potter and man as the clay, and we see this idea in Genesis as God forms Adam from earth. While Genesis doesn't explicitly state that God is a potter, the parallel is impossible to miss. Furthermore, the idea is developed in precisely these terms elsewhere in the Old Testament in places like Job which concludes that everyone is formed like clay on a potter's wheel. Following that forming, both the Egyptian and the Hebrew texts use the phrase “breath of life” to describe the life-giving force that the deity infused into the nostrils of the clay figure. While the earlier Genesis passage I mentioned shows God creating by divine word, Genesis 2:4-25 offers a completely different perspective where God creates by forming.

Super interesting! Where can I read more?

Finally, as the third theological concept introduced by Egyptian precedence to Moses- this one is a little more obscure and nuanced. Atum, "seeds" the world into existence by means of self-copulation. It has no direct parallel to anything similar in the Genesis account (unless you are willing to infer). Here's the rub. It's not a stretch to see the Ptah theology combined with the Khnum understanding and these two mesh together in this Atum example. The world is imagined, commanded to be, then formed. If one simply dismisses the idea of the Genesis God seeding mankind, one would have to dismiss much of scripture including the very teachings of Jesus, the Christ.

This story is very similar to the creation myths of ancient Persia and the Asian steppe, and the hypothetical Proto-Indo-European mythology.

 

[Wick Stick]

(Raises hand )View attachment 37735

Let me guess!!
How ab0ut the One who created all of it, and who talked to Abraham Himself!

You're not the first to say so. Philo of Alexandria suggested the same thing in the 1st century AD.

But there are problems.

First... nobody before Philo said so. There was over a thousand years between Moses and Philo in which NOBODY held that view or at least nobody wrote about it.

Second... Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy all contain a bunch of places where the books tell us that God told Moses... stuff. The fact that God told us something directly is important. Attributing words directly to God gives those words extra significance. If God told Moses things in Genesis, why doesn't Genesis attribute them to God?

 

[Mr E]

Super interesting! Where can I read more?

This story is very similar to the creation myths of ancient Persia and the Asian steppe, and the hypothetical Proto-Indo-European mythology.

» Creation myths and form(s) of the gods in ancient Egypt

Egypt’s mythic world, rich with creative imagery, was deeply informed by the natural world that surrounded them.

smarthistory.org

The three major variations of the Egyptian creation story are commonly referred to today by the cult locations where these variations were most heavily promoted: Hermopolis (Khemnu), Heliopolis (Iunu), and Memphis (Ineb-hedj).

Trinity concept???

There were also many other types of groupings of deities, especially triads. These father-mother-child groupings, like the Theban Triad of Amun, Mut, and Khonsu, were viewed collectively in certain contexts but each still maintained their individuality. Rather different was a practice known as syncretism where different deities were merged into one body. This appears to have been an effort to acknowledge when a deity was dwelling “within” another deity when performing roles that were primarily functions of the other. Often these were combinations of similar deities or different aspects of the same god, such as Atum-Khepri, which combined the dusk and dawn manifestations of the sun god. Other examples merged deities of very different nature, such as Amun-Ra, where the “hidden one” (mentioned above) was combined with the visible power of the sun to create the “King of the Gods.”

Heliopolis —cult center of Atum



Memphis—cult center of the great craftsman Ptah

 

[Mr E]

Super interesting! Where can I read more?

This story is very similar to the creation myths of ancient Persia and the Asian steppe, and the hypothetical Proto-Indo-European mythology.

 

[St. SteVen]

The sun god thing reminds me of this.

1 Timothy 6:16
who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

/

 

[Cassandra]

First... nobody before Philo said so. There was over a thousand years between Moses and Philo in which NOBODY held that view or at least nobody wrote about it.

Nobody believed God told Moses what to write? Cites, please.