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Hath God cast away his people

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Insight, Oct 25, 2011.

  1. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. Rom 11:1
     
  2. Foreigner

    Foreigner New Member

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    Hath the reasonable parameters of an understandable question been discarded?
     
  3. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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    I am a bit lost here as per the "discussion". I read that as a statement, not something which Paul is questioning!

    "NO" God is ever reaching out to His people.
     
  4. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Paul answered his own question quite well if you are willing to see it:

    Romans 11:5 "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

    Speaking of those blinded beyond that remnant of elect., Paul said: Romans 10:1 "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

    Who can blame him for desiring to see that.

    But in saying "might be" he told us plainly he was not saying that they will be.

    Did Paul entertain hopes of that whole nation being saved as so many preach today? Romans 11:14 "If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them."


    Romans 9:1 "I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
    2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart."

    Romans 9:33 "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:"

    accursed = <G0331> anathema -- pronounced: an-ath'-em-ah

    from 394; a (religious) ban or (concretely) excommunicated (thing or person): KJV -- accused, anathema, curse, X great.
     
  5. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Please note that Romans 9:33 above in my last post should be Romans 9:3


    The word "ambiguity" means that a statement or even a phrase lends itself (by the way it is worded) to being understood more than one way.

    It is difficult enough for us to avoid all ambiguity even when it is something that was originally written in our own language.

    Ambiguity is an even more difficult problem for translators between languages to surmount.

    For that reason we must be willing to step back from our preconceived beliefs or from what we may prefer that it says, and deliberately look to see other ways of interpreting a particular passage or even a phrase in that passage.

    A simple question like, "Hath God cast away his people?' has what is know as perspective. And that perspective can be seen differently by different people.

    In that simple question is Paul asking if the fleshly nation was cast off? Or, is Paul asking only if God cast the people of that nation off?

    Those are two different perspectives of that same question, both which work equally well to how it is worded. And if the latter perspective be true, (that Paul is asking only if God cast the people of that nation off), then it does not really tell us anything about whether God intends or does not intend to use the nation itself anymore. All it may be telling us is that those people have the same hope that we all have.

    Pondering what I put in that previous post (#4), which way seems to fit the best and why?
     
  6. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    I (Paul) am a descendant of Abraham

    Firstly, one must fully understand the magnitude of the Apostle Pauls calling and the sinful position he has been redeemed. His persecution of the early believers to the death was always front of mind.

    Therefore, Paul’s personal standing in Christ when writing this was in itself a great witness and type that all Israel were not cast off.

    His reference to his own tribe Phi 3:5 is also worthy of noting which we shall consider further in due course.

    This entire Chapter is a revelation through Paul of how God will restore natural Israel bringing them into the New Covenant in Christ.

    I hope you enjoy the discussions.

    Insight
     
  7. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    In Chapter 9 Paul outlined God's doctrine of election, that is how and why He chooses or rejects individuals and nations. In Chapter 10 the apostle reveals why the Jews deserved their rejection, since they rejected God and His Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Because of their action in bringing about the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ, God had withdrawn their exclusive and peculiar privileges, and had opened the gospel message to the Gentiles. So the question has been asked:

    What is the divine purpose with Israel?

    Has the disobedience of the Jewish nation caused God to cast off His people (for good) whom once He had chosen, scattering and regathering along with the great and precious promises given unto the Fathers?

    Paul shows in Romans 11 that Yahweh’s purpose remains constant; that a remnant will finally be recovered, and that Israel will ultimately be restored to divine favour.

    As we move through this chapter many prophecies come to life.

    The recovery of Israel nationally is its subject and the events that deliverer them will soon be provided.

    As stated by Prentis and Nomad, we shall see the emergence of a faithful remnant, both of Jew and Gentile, to the honour and glory of Yahweh’s name.

    “I will be Whom I will be”

    Insight

    p.s Vengle, how do you propose we have this discussion, take one verse at a time? and see where it heads?
     
  8. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    If you read the whole chpater of romans 11, Paul is speaking to gentile christians. He is explaining why they have been accepted into Gods kingdom and why some Isrealites have not. He explains that because some of the jews were unfaithful, God had cast them off and this action has made it possible for people of the nations to take a position which were originally set aside for the jews.

    17 However, if some of the branches were broken off but you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the olive’s root of fatness, 18 do not be exulting over the branches. If, though, you are exulting over them, it is not you that bear the root, but the root [bears] you. 19 You will say, then: “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 All right! For [their] lack of faith they were broken off, but you are standing by faith. Quit having lofty ideas, but be in fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you

    So really, its not that Isreal had been cast aside...its just that many of them refused to put faith in the messiah and for that reason they could not be taken into Gods kingdom. But a remnant of them were faithful...Pauls opening words exclaim "Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite" So obviously as a whole, they were not discarded. God only removed the unfaithful branches.
     
  9. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Hi Pegg,

    It is (really) important you understand that natural Israel's rejection was only temporary.

    That is what Paul is teaching in Rom:11:1-10

    Insight
     
  10. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Paul went on in Romans 11:2-5 to speak to the Roman Gentile church about 1 Kings 19:14-18.

    Paul’s reasoning was that God had showed that a remnant would be saved. And Paul knew all of the many prophecies concerning that remnant.

    Paul never doubted that remnant would be saved.. He even told them: Romans 11:29 "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

    Paul therefore would not have been in grief over that remnant as we see him grieve at Romans 9: 1-3. And that means he had to be in grieving for those of his flesh who were not of that remnant.

    Also, when Paul said at Romans 10:1 and Romans 11:14 that his heartfelt hope was that he "might save some of them", Paul could not have been speaking about that remnant of whom he had no doubt would be saved.

    So, yes, it could only be those who were blinded that Paul grieved for as seen at Romans 9:1-3 and, YES AND, Paul could not have viewed them as being part of that foretold remnant else he would not be in grief for them.

    The remnant are not the blinded ones. We need to distinguish between those who God gave a spirit of slumber and that remnant.

    Notice the difference between the election and the blinded Paul speaks of here:

    Romans 11:7 "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

    Also, notice who the remnant was at 1Kings 19: 18 as to whether they were blind ones:

    1 Kings 19:18 “Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.”

    They were not blind ones. The remnant is about the elect of God. They are not now nor ever where blinded. They are always the first to come into the church in all generations. They are men and women like as Abel and Enoch and Noah and Abraham. They are the loyal ones God finds in the earth which keeps him from having to destroy us.

    Genesis 6:7-8 “And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”

    Genesis 6:9 “These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.”


    Some will try to jump at this point to say that it is different with this foretold remnant of the New Covenant; that they would be blinded for good purpose that the Gentiles receive grace.

    They will try to get your mind from off of really thinking about the connotations of the points I am making.

    Never-the-less, I am going to pause here to give you a chance to ponder and absorb those points if you will.

    I will leave this particular post with this final thought:

    In Paul’s generation, “The election obtained ... the rest were blinded.”

    In every generation it is the election that obtains and the preaching work lead by the elect is about saving some of the rest that are blinded; but the election who are the true keepers of God’s word know that they can expect only that they “might save some of them.”


    The remnant of the natural Jews and of that natural Israel are always the first fruit with Christ.

    They are never the last fruit as is being preached by many.
     
  11. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Vengle,

    I perceive we are drawing to the same conclusion which is comforting if a meeting of minds resulted from this study.

    I can see you are taking a macro view of the subject. If you don’t mind I will consider the micro and see if they both agree.

    The question is of interest don’t you think?

    "Hath God cast away His people?"

    The Gk "cast away" is apotheo meaning "to thrust from oneself, to cast off, by way of rejection".

    Should the answer be YES this would negate all His promises to the fathers, and to bring discredit upon His holy Name.

    And we both know this will not do!

    "Yahweh will not forsake His people for His great Name's sake: because it hath pleased Yahweh to make you His people"

    This is an important principle which must always be front of mind!

    While the door has been opened to the Gentiles, we have NOT replaced Israel, ABSOLUTLEY NOT!!!

    God's righteousness demands that He disciplines all His people when their actions require it (See Heb. 12:5,6,7), He does so in love and for their development and not evidence of His rejection of their position of privilege.

    As you have said Vengle - God will fulfil His purpose with Israel, a principle witnessed by His faithfulness in creation: Jer. 33:20,21.

    In no way can this be argued.

    Insight
     
  12. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    I do appreciate the spirit of love you show in the way you tell me this.

    What I see though is that you are confusing God's loyalty to his people with loyalty to that fleshly nation.

    The nation came through the man Jacob but the true people of God came through Israel.

    Ponder that.

    Here is a key:

    Promises to the flesh came always with conditions.

    Promises to the perpetual seed were guaranteed.

    Search and see that the promise to multiply Abraham's seed that does not come through Christ was conditional.

    Search and see that the promise to multiply Abraham's seed through Christ was guaranteed.
     
  13. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    At this point in time I am only speaking to natual Israel, as you say, those of Jacob.

    Today there are religious organisations, such as the British Israelites and Jehovah's Witnesses, who reject wholesale God's future purpose in natural Israel; they teach the very thing that Paul here rejects: that God has entirely cast away His people.

    This study will without doubt reveal their error.

    Paul argues (not I) that if God had cast away His people, natural Israel, then as a member of that nation, he would have been excluded from any benefits.

    Again, one must be able to acknowledge the example of Paul himself. Consider his previous blasphemy against God's Son, and his violent way of life against the Christians, and then consider the mercy that he received. This alone is sufficient evidence to refute any suggestion that God had cast off natural Israel.

    This issue goes to the heart of what we are teaching. Paul received mercy in abundance through repentance, so also applies to natural Israel who will eventually be brought to their knees Rom 11:26; Zech. 12:10-13:1.

    Of course it would be foolishness to suggest that Rom 11:26 has already taken place.

    And I should add "Why did Paul use Jacob in Rom 11:26?"

    Insight
     
  14. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    We will get around to the rest of what you said at the right time for it.

    As to the answer of your question above:

    Because there is no ungodliness in the true Israel as it is only God's proven true Israel once ungodliness is banished from Jacob and his flesh. That flesh is being destroyed. In that way all who really are Israel are saved. Romans 9:6-8

    Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
    23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
    24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

    Why do you think that John keeps telling us: 1 John 3:6 "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."


    Jacob also pictures Jesus the son of Man who bore the world's sins that in him sin might be destroyed.

    There is more to learn than most are even aware of. Most have not even gotten a glimpse yet.

    1 Peter 1:16 "Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy."
     
  15. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    For clarity when do you see Rom 11:26KJV fulfilled? i.e "shall"

    This may help my next post.

    Insight
     
  16. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    hi,

    ok so why do you say it is only temporary? There must be some scriptural evidence to suggest this?
     
  17. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Well,

    Firstly you should heed the emphasis in which he answers the question. It was as an fervent denial by him as possible. Almost like his is horrified of the very thought of Israel's permanent rejection. (Rom 3:4).

    I like how Rotherham’s translates this "Far be it!".

    If it were true Pegg you would have Yahweh openly denying His character and have Him ignoring his purpose with Israel..

    Paul goes on to prove his point by providing us three facts about himself which need considering:
    1. I am an Israelite
    2. Of the Seed of Abraham
    3. Of the Tribe of Benjamin
    I do hope to explore this in more detail.


    Might I add this Pegg.

    Why do you think Paul introduces this personal note into his narrative? Rom 11:1?

    With love in the Master
     
  18. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    yes, it denotes that we must go through a period of becoming holy.

    it is literally "do you become holy"

    It is a causative action future tense verb (of course I am referring to the Greek text)

    what that means is it is not simply telling us that in the future we will be holy

    It is demanding that we be holy in the future because he is holy.

    So the rendering "must be holy" is accurate.

    So "shall" would not be correct.

    "Shalt" would be correct.

    I have more trouble with this editor :lol:
     
  19. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Why do you think Paul has begun his thoughts emphasizing his association of natural Israel

    1. Physical Nation
    2. Abrahams natural "seed"
    3. the natural tribe of Benjamin
    What foundation is he laying for the rest of the chapter. [​IMG]

    Vengle you have thrown a curve ball?

    I think we need to discuss Rom 11:26 sooner rather than later.

    Actually, you may like to go and study Isa 59:20 where Paul is quoting first. Its good to grasp where he has his mind in the OT to better understand how he is applying it here in Rom 11:26.

    Insight
     
  20. brionne

    brionne Active Member

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    i thought his purpose for Isreal was to make them a nation in order to bring the Messiah into the world. The 'seed of promise' was made to Abraham before there was a nation.

    But the whole context of Romans 11 doesnt seem to be saying that Isreal will still have a purpose. To me, it appears that Paul is reasoning on why the gentiles were being 'grafted in'


    i think that to understand why he says "I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? Never may that happen! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham," we need to go back and look at the previous chapters because it is all the same subject.

    just going by vs 2 we can see that Paul is using the example of Elijah to show that, even back then, not all Isreal were faithful to God. But God knew exactly who the faithful Isrealites were "God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized. Why, do YOU not know what the Scripture says in connection with E‧li′jah, as he pleads with God against Israel? ...4 Yet, what does the divine pronouncement say to him? “I have left seven thousand men over for myself, [men] who have not bent the knee to Ba′al..."

    Now if you go back to chpter 9, we see Paul stating that not all Isreal are faithful to God, but a remnant of them are faithful:
    3 For I could wish that I myself were separated as the cursed one from the Christ in behalf of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, 4 who, as such, are Israelites, to whom belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises;...6 However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.”

    We cannot expect the entire nation of Jews to turn to Christ...it didnt happen in ancient times and its not going to happen today. The sad fact of the matter is that not all 'people' will accept God and Christ...and that includes jewish people. So Paul is saying that Gods word has not failed, his promises to the jews will still be fulfilled on that 'faithful remnant'...Paul being one of that faithful remnant.

    Not all who spring from Abraham are really Abrahams children because they do not all have the faith that Abraham had. Some of them do, but not all of them.
     
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