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Hath God cast away his people

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Insight, Oct 25, 2011.

  1. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    That you do not know the flesh can be completely lain to rest at the foot of the cross now proves you have no conception of the power of the spirit of the life that is in Jesus Christ our Lord.

    I get the feeling that you care more about being a respected teacher of religion than you are willing to actually consider what I or anyone presents to you (which is why I have held back with you) but if you do have the heart to, ponder these verses. really ponder them. Toss your own wisdom to the wayside so that you do nothing but listen to what they say.

    The conclusion of the matter, all things having been considered, is this:

    Romans 9:15-16 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

    Ephesians 1:4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."

    2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

    James 2:5 "Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?"

    1 Peter 2:1 [ASV] "Putting away therefore all wickedness, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
    2 as newborn babes, long for the spiritual milk which is without guile, that ye may grow thereby unto salvation;
    3 if ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious:
    4 ¶unto whom coming, a living stone, rejected indeed of men, but with God elect, precious,
    5 ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
    6 Because it is contained in scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: And he that believeth on him shall not be put to shame.
    7 For you therefore that believe is the preciousness: but for such as disbelieve, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner;
    8 and, A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    9 But ye are a elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
    10 who in time past were no people, but now are the people of God: who had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy."

    1 Corinthians 1:27-28 "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are."

    Romans 9:22 "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
    25 ¶As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
    26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
    27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
    28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
    29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
    30 ¶What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
    31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
    32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
    33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

    Just listen. That is all it takes to know.

    Your own wisdom only prevents you from knowing.
  2. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    In Romans 11:30-32, Paul insists that the blindness that God imposed
    upon the vast majority of Israelites was for a good purpose. Specifically,
    it was to benefit the rest of the world.

    30 For just as you [ethnos] once were disobedient to God,
    but now have been shown mercy because of their [the
    sraelites] disobedience,
    31 so these [Israelites] also now have been disobedient,
    in order that because of the mercy shown to you, they
    also may now be shown mercy.
    32 For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might
    show mercy to all.

    The disobedience of the ethnos, dating back to Adam, ultimately brought
    about the call to Abraham as an individual and later Israel as a nation. It
    was on account of the world's disobedience (particularly manifested
    through the rebellion of Nimrod and his city, Babylon) that God chose to
    work with one man to bring about the necessary change.

    Then later, when Israel fell into the same rebellion and lawless behavior
    that characterized the rest of the ethnos, God scattered them into the
    "field" (world) in order to bring forth a much greater harvest of souls. But
    Paul tells us that it was God's intent and plan to disperse the Israelites into
    the world. For this reason, God blinded Israel. It was to bring about the
    failure of the Old Covenant, so that it could be set aside in favor of the New

    The blindness upon Israel worked in favor of the ethnos, even as in earlier
    times the disobedience of the ethnos had brought about the call of Abraham
    to benefit Israel. Paul makes it clear that "God has shut up ALL in disobedience,"
    so we understand that the ethnos were blinded from the beginning as much as
    the Israelites were blinded later.

    Few understand this, nor can they bring themselves to believe that God would
    do such a thing. God's use of His sovereign power in such a manner is only
    righteous if God intended to have mercy upon all of them in the end. If the plan
    were to destroy or to torture those whom God had blinded, then God could
    hardly be just and good. The divine plan is hardly believable apart from an
    understanding of the truth of the reconciliation of all men set forth in Romans 5.
    In Romans 11:33-35, Paul makes some astounding statements,

    33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and
    knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments
    and unfathomable His ways!
    34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who
    became His counselor?
    35 Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid
    back to Him again?

    Paul here refers to various Scriptures without quoting any of them directly.
    Perhaps the key Scripture is from Job 41:11,

    11 Who has given to Me that I should repay Him? Whatever
    is under the whole heaven in Mine.

    The story of Job, as everyone knows, is the story of how God gave permission
    to Satan to afflict him (Job 1:12). The entire book is about the purpose of evil
    and how God allowed Job to be afflicted for a good purpose as revealed in the
    end of the story. It is a story of God's sovereignty and how He appears to use
    that power to inflict evil upon men, but in the end we discover that God's intent
    was for good.

    This is the same principle by which God has blinded all mankind. It is to bring
    mercy upon all in the end. God will not allow His temporary injustices to stand
    forever. He will always bring restoration, if not in this life, then certainly in the
    next. In the end, all things will work together for good (Rom. 8:28).

    36 For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things.
    To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

    Paul's view was that all things came out of God Himself. Paul tells us that
    because all things came out of God, all things must inevitably return to Him.
    This is his way of expressing the divine plan.

    All things go THROUGH Him as well. This is what we call history. It is the
    outworking of the divine plan, and it includes the imposition of blindness
    upon humanity.

    Finally, all things go back TO Him in the restoration of all things. If any part of God
    is left unrestored, if any part of God is cut off from Him forever, then God will
    forever remain incomplete and imperfect. All must truly go back TO Him in order
    for all things to work together for good, and for the divine plan to be complete.

    Only in such an event could Paul conclude with his doxology, "To Him be the glory
    forever. Amen."

  3. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    I was all “Amen” and sadly you went pear shaped with the below diatribe of nonsensical mythological fantastical and every other “cal” imaginable.


    I implore you to revisit Job to see your supernatural being is not some fiery make believe monster but an adversary of Job's who is only introduced for three chapters and disappears of the scene without a mention.

    Who do you think brought the evil upon Job?

    Provide verses.


    How can one listen to someone who denies Israel's natual existence - you would need to have rocks in your head and be without any comprehension of OT prophecy to even give your teaching the slightest of hearing.

    Ezekiel 20:33,34,35,36,37,38

    Explain this prophecy to us?

    And please dont run off to any unrelated verses - please speak to this section alone.


    You must read one thing and percieve another?

    Are you able to show me one (1) post where I have stated the flesh profits, just one Prentis?

    You are way offline Prentis - again show me the post. Personal attacks are empty and they come from empty vessles.

    Show me one post that I have stated a divided Kingdom.

    All the winks and smilies and subtle little jabs but where is your evidence.

    Everything you have states are blatant lies or misrepresenting my posts which is almost as poor form.
  4. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    You said:
    In other words, you are judging and making a standard of your own, you measure everything in comparison to yourself.

    You have also made it very clear that you divide between the Jews and the Gentiles, who have been made one in Christ, hence a divided kingdom. This divided kingdom is divided according to something of the flesh. Hence the flesh profiting something...
  5. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Prentis, you are misinformed my friend. And it appears for all your ranting’s you were unable to support your unfounded claims.

    What is factual about natural Israel is there eventual regrafting back into the Olive Tree – even you yourself I believe have admitted this fact. Only one person here is in denial for holding onto something which he himself is yet to let go.

    Prentis – how will Israel be regrafted back in? Who will teach them the Gospel?

    Read Jer 3:15NET Jer 3:15KJV

    If you reject this role please explain why? And on what grounds would you not desire to bring them back in and train them in righteousness?

    I have just revealed to you your position description and the duty of being a shepherd of Christ and it appears odd you would openly reject this duty.

  6. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    I have clearly said I believe us to be one in Christ, and yes, if we follow Christ, by this he will bring them to jealousy that they would be ONE with us.

    But according to my understanding of what you said, you are dividing according to the flesh, saying God has a different purpose for Jews than he has for Gentiles. The truth is we are all called into oneness in Christ.
  7. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    I asked you to show where I stated God had a different purpose with natural Israel? If you hadn't noticed this thread is solely concerning "natural Israel" is it not? With this in mind you must show where in this thread are we discussing the calling in of Gentiles?

    We are discussing the "natual" branches, not the wild olive branch.

    Which leads me to question why you cannot distinguish (as Paul) the difference between these two branches?

    I am sure you dont need to to define them once more.

    Next time, just ask, before you jump to conclusions.

  8. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    It was necessary that the actual descendants of Jacob be the ones who
    would give back the land to Esau. For this reason, God allowed Britain to
    gain control of Palestine and Jerusalem in 1917 toward the end of World
    War 1. Britain's flag is called "Union Jack," which is a contraction for the
    name Jacob. In fact, even the name Brit-ain is Hebrew for Covenant Land,
    and Brit-ish is Hebrew for Covenant People.

    So the grand parable saw Jacob take control of Palestine in 1917 in order
    to give it back to Esau in 1948.

    Likewise, on a secondary level, the Church also represents Jacob. Jacob
    was the deceiver and usurper who had not yet learned sufficient faith to
    be an Israelite overcomer. Jacob had a measure of faith, but thought God
    needed help from the arm of flesh. In that way, Jacob foreshadowed the
    carnal side of the Church. Only the overcomers are true Israelites.

    So while God used Britain to represent political Jacob, God also used the
    carnal Church to represent religious Jacob in returning the birthright to
    Esau in 1948. It was thus necessary for God to blind the church, so that it
    would support the Israeli state as a representative of Jacob.

  9. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    Joseph's birthright is about Sonship, for Jacob blessed him with the words,
    Joseph is a fruitful Son” (Gen. 49:22). Thus, 1948 is really when the modern
    Sonship movement began. However, most of the people remained ignorant of
    the Jewish connection with Edom, and so when the Israeli state was formed,
    they considered it to be the fulfillment of the biblical prophecies of Israel.

    Thus, they generously supported it and thus gave away the birthright,
    which is the fruitfulness mandate. In calling this new state Israel, they
    recognized them as the inheritors of the birthright, for Israel is the birthright
    name given to Joseph and his sons (Gen. 48:16).

    Then they wondered why the Sons of God did not manifest as they expected.
    The simple fact is that they gave away the right to be the generation that
    would see the manifestation of the Sons of God. They gave it to people who
    were not even believers in Jesus Christ, people who had no business claiming
    the throne of Judah, much less the birthright of Joseph.

    In other words, the Church sold the birthright, even as Esau had done many
    years ago. The Church despised its birthright, and this has disqualified them
    from Sonship. In betraying Christ in the matter of the birthright, the Church
    has assumed the modern role of Judas—unknowingly, of course, but ignorance
    is only a partial excuse.

    Jesus' disciples (other than Judas) did what was required of them, for they
    recognized that Jesus was the rightful Heir of the Throne of David. Thus, the
    believers were the only ones remaining to continue the tribe of Judah. This is
    why Paul tells us in Romans 2:28, 29 that the true Jews are not those who
    claim it by an outward circumcision, but rather those who have the circumcision
    of the heart. To be of the tribe of Judah in the sight of God, one must be a
    Christian believer.

    To this greatly reduced tribe of Judah were added many others from other
    parts of the world, as they came to put their faith in the King of Judah. There
    is no such thing as a Judahite (“Jew”) who does not believe that Jesus is the
    Christ. But, of course, man's definition of terms may say otherwise.

    The problem is, in the year 1948 the Church (Judah) became a Judas, a betrayer
    of Christ, in the controversy around the birthright and the name of Israel. Jesus is
    the Heir of Joseph's birthright, for His robe is dipped in blood (Rev. 19:13), even
    as Joseph's robe was dipped in blood (Gen. 37:31).

    Regardless of who the Church believes is the rightful Heir of the birthright, I myself have
    joined the company of disciples that recognizes Jesus Christ as the Heir of Joseph. In the
    year 2000 Pope John Paul II made a trip to “Israel” and FOR THE FIRST TIME called them by
    that name. This was no accident. It was the moment when the Roman Church joined with
    the Evangelical and Pentecostal churches in selling the birthright to non-Christian people.

    In a way, this is what has delayed the manifestation of the sons of God, to say nothing of
    the second coming of Christ. The controversy still has not been resolved. The usurpers
    have not yet been judged, nor have the Scepter and Birthright been forcibly taken from
    them. David has not yet returned, nor has Absalom yet died in battle.

    But the day is fast approaching when the prophecy will be fulfilled, and the biblical story
    repeated. Then the Israeli state will cease to exist, and men will understand that the Jews
    are neither Judah nor Israel in the sight of God. They will come to see that only believers
    in Christ are recognized by God as Judahites. They will also come to see that only the Sons
    of God are recognized by God as Israelites. They will begin to see these terms applied
    according to the provisions of the law, rather than according to mere ethnicity or genealogy.

  10. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    That's not how that Gen.49 passage about Joseph is meant in regards to God's Birthright. We're told back in history how Reuben lost the Birthright and it went to Joseph's two sons...[/font]

    1 Chr 5:1-2
    1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
    2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:)

    So Joseph's two sons (Ephraim and Manasseh) had the Birthright long before the establishing of a modern state of Israel in 1948.

    God's Birthright involves His Promises He first gave through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. And one of the first and main promises was that of the Promise by Faith, which Apostle Paul later revealed was the promise of Salvation by Faith through Christ Jesus (Gal.3). Per that 1 Chron.5 Scripture, God's Birthright was split in two parts, because Judah was to keep the royal scepter and as giver of God's laws (Gen.49:10). The other promises contained in God's Birthright went to Joesph's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh, where it still dwells today, reason being because you won't find any later Scripture in God's Word where His Birthright was transferred from Joseph's two sons.

    As far as support of the modern state of Israel, yes, but that's as far as it goes, for the modern state of Israel has never been a bulwark of The Gospel of Jesus Christ to the nations. Instead, the western Christian nations have been, and still are to a large degree. Yet the establishing of a modern state of Israel in the holy land is per God's decree. They can claim all they want that they are the only Israel, but Christians who know God's Word well know better, since The Gospel of Jesus Christ is central to God's children of Israel per His Birthright promises regardless of their geographic location. Just so happens, that's been in the Christian west with Christian Israelites and Gentile believers, not in the modern state of Israel, and not with orthodox Judah living in the west that still refuse Christ Jesus.

    If all the remnant of Israel according to the election of grace had given up their heritage as part of Israel, then someone like myself (a Gentile), wouldn't even know about God's establishing of Israel in the West in regards to The Gospel of Jesus Christ. What's often preached in many Churches is mostly the 'milk' of God's Word, not the "strong meat" of His Word. There's still a remnant of the children of Israel in the Christian west today that well understand what the migrations of the ten tribes under Ephraim was about. By some of the writings of America's founding fathers, bits of that even comes out in their speech. Per Old Testament prophecy, God promised there would always exist a remnant among scattered Israel that would know the Truth. And that's the only way any of us would know about Israel's establishing in the west under The Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's obvious that's not a popular idea among Judah, and especially a hated idea among orthodox Judah, and by Esau and Ishmael. But it's something that throughout the generations of the Christian west, it still keeps popping up among some Churches (mainly Churches that teach The Bible line upon line, chapter by chapter).

    As long as there exists a remnant that knows the Truth, then the 'real' Church has not given up God's Birthright, for The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the 'main' part of that Birthright. That's why among what peoples God's Birthright promises are so easy to find, once one understands what God's Birthright really is in connection with The Gospel. If you'll note per last days prophecy, there's to be a remant that will make a 'stand' in the 'evil day' concerning testimony in The Gospel, all the way up to Christ's return. It's the testimony of The Gospel of Jesus Christ that the devil really wants to destroy, but it will never happen, not even during the coming tribulation upon the saints. Here we are today on the verge of the coming tribulation, and we're giving testimony of The Gospel of Jesus Christ. If The Gospel were not allowed through any method of modern media, we would still be on the rooftops shouting It out. Have Faith, we already have the Victory through Christ Jesus.

    Well, there's been debates on that from Romans 11 where Paul revealed that God has not cast away the blinded of Israel either, but that their blindness away from Christ would be until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. So I wouldn't be so ready to cast away unbelieving Judah yet, since God has not. When their 'blindness' is removed by Christ, then they will see, and hopefully many of them will believe. But until then... I wouldn't be too ready to cast them off.

    Christ's Salvation of The Gospel going to the western Christian nations formed out of Asia Minor (7 Churches) and western Europe (through the Apostles) reveals those called in that preaching were not of Judah only. Many of them were Israelites of the ten scattered tribes, which were not of the tribe of Judah. Let's not forget that they would have a duty in The Gospel, for God didn't (Amos 9:9; Hosea; Isaiah 49; Isaiah 60:9; Jer.31:18-21).

    Maybe some Churches did, those that are really just 'beth-avens' (houses of vanity) that do the same kind of traditions of men that the Pharisees do. But there's still enough true Beth-el's (houses of God) that have continued in the 'strong meat' to this day. True, when Christ returns, He will sit upon His throne, which is the throne of David. But until His second coming, another of Judah still sits upon that throne here on earth as God promised His servant David, and which Jacob also revealed to his son Judah for the last days (Gen.49).

    Christ indeed is The Heir Apparent. When Christ returns, then they'll understand all this. But consider those you speak of have been blinded by God, for there will be a group of foolish virgins at His coming like He revealed in Matthew 25. If God has blinded them, who are we to go against God in that?

    On the contrary, I think everything is right on schedule per God's Plan in His Word. And I would suggest you look deeper about that royal scepter and Birthright, as to who actually still has it today. The end time events are ordained to make it 'appear' like others have it by the locust working, even when unbelieving Judah sets up their fake "king of the world" in Jerusalem in our near future. All of that is going to make the delusion upon them all the more apparent when Christ's coming does occur.

    Once again, don't forget Paul taught differently about the eventual fate of many of unbelieving Judah, per Rom.11. We cannot condemn them for the Judgment is not yet. Bible study in more of the future millennium events per OT Scripture will help understand more of that.
  11. logabe

    logabe Active Member

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    I agree Veteran... God will open their eyes in the future but we can't be
    sucked in by believing that the Jewish State is Israel. When we do, we
    become Judas... unknowingly of course.

    I'm not condemning them at all. I know God will give them another chance
    and they will accept the invitation but, we as Christians need to understand
    we can't get caught up in thinking they are the birthright people because
    that disqualifies us from receiving our birthright at the First Resurrection.

  12. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    Those who listen to The LORD in His Word will not be deceived by the coming strong delusion by the Antichrist-pseudo Messiah set to occur upon the unbelieving. There are several here that are already well sealed by God against that working. But I feel the same way as you, and wish all the brethren were sealed in that.

    Our Lord Jesus foretold how the unbelievers in Judea would receive one coming in his own name...

    John 5:43
    43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

    Thus most of those deceived in that in Jerusalem really don't have a chance, for the strong delusion is set to occur upon them, and the majority of the world that are deceived with them.
  13. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    By the way, the ESV translation of Gen.49:10 is wrong.

    Gen.49:10 The mscepter shall not depart from Judah,
    nor the ruler’s staff nfrom between his feet,
    until tribute comes to him;1
    and to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.

    Gen 49:10
    10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

    It's because the Hebrew contains a preposition (translated as "and unto him") often used for pronouns (a person). The parallel Scripture to this is in Ezekiel 21, which also points to this KJV translation of Gen.49:10 being more accurate...

    Ezek 21:26-27
    26 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Remove the diadem, and take off the crown: this shall not be the same: exalt him that is low, and abase him that is high.
    27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn, it: and it shall be no more, until he come whose right it is; and I will give it him.

    The KJV "it shall be no more" in the above is actually a bad translation, since "more" was added, and the subject is about it's being moved, not done away with altogether. This is easily seen since the later phrase "and I will give it him" reveals its existence does not stop until that 'he' comes to receive it.