Have All Really Sinned?

[Ekul7291]

Let us take a true look at this and see if we can prove this one way or another as to if it is true or false.

We all know Jesus did not sin.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Did Melchizedek king of Salem the priest of the most high God, sin and come short of the glory of God?

A. yes

B. no

Can a child of God with the Spirit of God dwelling within them tell a lie?

A. yes

B. no

When a soul is born again and becomes a new creature, are they not without sin?

Can you prove any of this to be false?

Would it not be the devil that would want you to believe you can never be without sin?

I do believe so.

 

[biggandyy]

Sinless perfection is heresy. (Council of Carthage 418 AD)

 

[Ekul7291]

Do you believe that all things are possible to those who can believe?

 

[biggandyy]

No, just as it is impossible for God to sin, there are likewise such logically absurd assertians made about Christians and the "force of their belief/faith."

 

[Ekul7291]

No, just as it is impossible for God to sin

That is an excellent point. Thank you for opening the door for me.

Now, if a body is the temple of the Holy Ghost. According to you it is impossible for them to sin. Do you believe this?

That is with the understanding that God is a Spirit.
You do believe that God is a Spirit do you not?

This being true I can say it is of a truth, there are a countless
number of people who are under the assumption they have the Spirit of God dwelling in them.
When in all actually they do not.

I am pretty sure that this is the work of the devil.

To trick people into thinking they have the Spirit of God in them.

And that everyone still does evil ans ins.

Yeah, pretty good trick don't you think.

If you do not know any better you are surly going to fall for it.

I know better.

 

[biggandyy]

Then you know very little.

 

[Ekul7291]

What little I know, is all correct.

You just cannot win 1 can you?

 

[Foreigner]

What little I know, is all correct.

-- Actually, in this case, you are indeed incorrect.


Paul said to the Romans: "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," - Rom 3:23
Paul was speaking present tense, after Christ had already been murdered and rose again.
In order for you to be correct, that post-Resurrection "God breathed" scripture would have to be incorrect.


Also, "as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;" - Rom 3:10
Jesus Christ alone was righteous. No one else.
Yet if a Christian could, via the Holy Spirit inside him, never sin, how could he NOT be considered righteous?
Or are you saying that a person completely free of sin......is not really righteous?


I would challenge you to present any evidence whatsoever of any Christian who has not sinned at all, once filled with the Holy Spirit.
I have yet to read, hear, or see anywhere where Holy Spirit filled Christian has made the claim that the Holy Spirit inside him has prevented him from ever sinning in thought word or deed.
Surely you're not making that claim for yourself......are you?
If you aren't then the next question would be, why not? Why haven't you yourself attained it if it is a realistic possibility?

I challenge you to provide any scriptural teaching or given sermon or instruction that states that with the Holy Spirit inside you, it can guarantee that you will never sin again. Paul himself - filled with the Holy Spirit - said, "The very things I hate, I end up doing. The things I want to do I just don't do."


Peter said, "Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins."
If a Christian, by the Holy Spirit inside him, could totally and completely be free of sin, why would Peter not mention the need to attain that, instead of warning about sin to these Christians?


Why - if being totally and completely free of all sin in thought, word, and deed from now on is a realistic expectation - is that not taught (or even mentioned) in the Bible?

 

[Ekul7291]

None of this proves anything. Please condense these unproven opinions and unproven accusations
of yours down to exactly what you can prove to be correct. You cannot ask me to prove what I said with out you not proving what you have said to me first. I have proved everything I have said already. If you think not...then by all means cut and paste exactly what you say is false and then PROVE IT.

And try to ask me only 1 question at a time. Not 10 at a time. Thank you

Rule of thumb when you debate. Making a statement without any proof
to validate that statement is worthless. It will not work on me.

And giving another unproven opinion to prove your previous unproven opinion...is worthless.

 

[Foreigner]

You cannot ask me to prove what I said with out you not proving what you have said to me first. I have proved everything I have said already.

-- You started the thread. Should you not then actually support what you post?
The very things I posted show that you have proven nothing.
Don't like what I posted? Awesome. Show where what I said was incorrect.

And try to ask me only 1 question at a time. Not 10 at a time. Thank you

-- Did you really miss the fact that your first post contained FIVE seperate questions? :lol:
Try to live up to the things you demand of others. Not demand what you yourself don't deliver. Thank you.

Rule of thumb when you debate.

-- I wasn't debating you. I was proving you are wrong.
You provided nothing to debate.


What you appear to put forward is that if a person truly has the Holy Spirit in them then they couldn't lie, and that if a Christian does happen to tell a lie then that is proof that the Holy Spirit actually did not reside in them.

Let's end this, shall we?

1.) Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to dwell inside of Christians.
2.) The Holy Spirit living inside Christians can be grieved.
3.) The Holy Spirit living inside a Christian is grieved when that Christian commits a sin.

Ergo:
1.) A Christian has the ability to sin while the Holy Spirit is dwelling inside them.
- and -
2.) If a Christian sins, that is not proof that the Holy Spirit does not reside in them.


Or, to put it another way:

Paul said: "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."

So here we have the born again, Holy Spirit filled Paul confessing that he still deals with sin.

In order for your hypothesis to be correct, either:
A.) Paul didn't actually have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside him at the time he wrote this divinely inspired letter to the Romans.
- or -
B.) This "God breathed" Scripture is wrong and Paul never actually sinned


Game.
Set.
Match.




.

 

[lforrest]

Does Ekul7291 believe Paul is a genuine Spirit filled apostle of Jesus? Paul wrote many of the scriptures that disagree with the heresy of sinless perfection.

 

[biggandyy]

Ekki, your statement "Making a statement without any proof to validate that statement is worthless" is self refuting and thus, worthless in and of itself since you provide no validation statement to support it.

You don't get to set the ground rules under which you will grace us with your vast knowledge and secret understanding of scripture. This is the debate forum and Roberts Rules of Order do not apply.

 

[HammerStone]

Unfortunately this poster will no longer be with us. You're welcome to return to the topic at hand.

 

[rand]

I think you're all missing the point. We are under grace and not under the law. Sin is not taken into account when there is no law (Romans 5:13). God took the law ( the ministry of death and condemnation) and nailed to the tree (2 Cor 3:6-11). We all need to stop looking at the law, which causes us to look at ourselves instead of looking at Christ. Your flesh will be flesh but that is not the real you, the new creation is the real you, and 1 John 4:17 tells us that as Jesus is, so are we while we are in this world.