Have All The Signs Been Filled To Expect A Rapture Any Day?

[veteran]

Ah, the sign of a "sudden destruction" (1 Thess.5).

In 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul revealed that "sudden destruction" will come with a time when the deceived will say, "Peace and safety".

In Matt.24 and Mark 13, our Lord Jesus said when you hear of wars and rumours of wars, don't be troubled, for those things must be, but the end is not yet.

The opposite of a time of wars and rumours of wars is that time of fake "Peace and safety". That has to occur first.

The globalist's plan for one world government is to bring world peace (they claim). The time of "Peace and safety" Apostle Paul mentioned reveals the globalist's plans for the joining of all nations under one system of government will come to pass, and it will produce that warm and fuzzy feeling of "Peace and safety" for the deceived. Paul also used the metaphor of their being drunk in the night, and in spiritual darkness for that time.

And that false world peace must be in effect when the "sudden destruction" comes. So what would a war in the middleast in our near future point to? Not Armageddon, but just another war and rumours of war event used to bring in that fake "Peace and safety". Jerusalem is going to be used during that time of "Peace and safety" for the "strong delusion" (false messiah coming to claim he is God, requiring the whole world to bow in worship to him).

The "sudden destruction" event is about the final battle for this world, the battle of Armageddon on the 7th vial (Rev.16). The false one will in final lead the nations of Ezek.38 upon God's people to try and wipe them off the face of the earth once and for all. That's when The LORD will step in to stop it, and is what the "sudden destruction" will be about. It is His cup of wrath poured out upon them, a 7th trumpet, 7th vial event.

 

[Foreigner]

"You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains. Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me." -- Matt 24:6-9


-- Not trying to make waves here.
Simply curious as to how we as Christians are going to be "handed over to be persecuted" if we have already been Raptured.

 

[veteran]

"You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains. Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me." -- Matt 24:6-9


-- Not trying to make waves here.
Simply curious as to how we as Christians are going to be "handed over to be persecuted" if we have already been Raptured.

If you've been 'raptured', then how will you make that stand for Christ by being delivered up to councils and synagogues? If our gathering to Christ was before the "great tribulation", then we wouldn't be here on earth to make that stand, now would we? So which is correct, men's doctrines that preach we're gathered prior to the tribulation, or God's Word like the Matthew 24 Scripture you quoted?

The time of Christ's saints who remain faithful being delivered up in the end, is during that time of fake "Peace and safety" Paul mentioned. That's when the majority of the world will be deceived into thinking false messiah is Christ having returned. And they will worship that false one in place of God, most will do that unknowingly, not aware at all who that false messiah really is. But when Christ does return to defeat that false messiah, that's when the deceived will wake up to know what they had done. That's why our Lord Jesus will even say to deceived foolish virgins, depart from Me, I never knew you.

So if those deceived will do something like that when false messiah comes, what will they think to do to the saints who refuse that false messiah? That's why those of us who remain faithful to Christ all the way to the end will be hated by all nations.

 

[Foreigner]

If you were to reread the original post I was commenting on, you would see I wasn't making an argument FOR the Rapture.

 

[HeroOfGod]

The Rapture will be a real eye-opener for the backslidden, lukewarm, and fence-straddling Christians. NOT all the Christians will get raptured! Those Christians who find themselves left behind will probably become true and born-again Christians and these are the ones who will have to face severe persecution.

 

[veteran]

The Rapture will be a real eye-opener for the backslidden, lukewarm, and fence-straddling Christians. NOT all the Christians will get raptured! Those Christians who find themselves left behind will probably become true and born-again Christians and these are the ones who will have to face severe persecution.

That's not written in God's Word. Here's what's written...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

 

[omnicopy]

There is not going to be a rapture as the churches teach there is. The churches teach a lot of incorrect and false doctrine now. That is all incorrect and false doctrine to soothe the souls of the deceived people in the churches. Most everyone is going to go through the tribulation, I think.

Very few will be sealed to go through the tribulation.

Kim

 

[fivesense]

If you've been 'raptured', then how will you make that stand for Christ by being delivered up to councils and synagogues? If our gathering to Christ was before the "great tribulation", then we wouldn't be here on earth to make that stand, now would we? So which is correct, men's doctrines that preach we're gathered prior to the tribulation, or God's Word like the Matthew 24 Scripture you quoted?

Gentiles were not allowed into synagogues in Paul's day, nor will they ever be likely to attend them. Any reference to a synagogue in the Scriptures is out of context if not applied to Judaism alone. If you speak "synagogue", you are speaking to Jews, not Gentiles. The Lord was speaking to Jews, the only people He was sent to minister to.

An ecclesia is one thing, which we are, but to assign us to being participants in Jewish worship, in a building that was never intended for us to be in, cannot be satisfactorily explained by the Divine Record.

However, this is not true in the case of those who "spiritualize" what they do not understand when they wrestle with the Scriptures. They apply equally, without discernment, God's revelations to the Patriarchs to all who trust in Christ, and will not acknowledge God has a chosen people that He has made promises to that He intends to keep, and those promises will never be given to any other nation on earth.
fivesense

 

[veteran]

Gentiles were not allowed into synagogues in Paul's day, nor will they ever be likely to attend them. Any reference to a synagogue in the Scriptures is out of context if not applied to Judaism alone. If you speak "synagogue", you are speaking to Jews, not Gentiles. The Lord was speaking to Jews, the only people He was sent to minister to

Not true.


Acts 14:1
1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
(KJV)

Acts 18:4
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.
(KJV)

It is written there how Apostle Paul went into the synagogues of the Jews and preached The Gospel both to Jews and Greeks. So yes, Gentiles were allowed in the Jewish synagogues per God's Word.. Who was allowed inside the temple was a different matter. There were many synagogues in that time, but only one temple. The synagogues were for all peoples, for learning.

Thus Christ's warning for the end of this world that some would be delivered up for His sake, to synagogues and prisons, definitely can apply to Gentile Christians too, for the non-believing Jews did not just persecute Jewish converts to Christ like Apostle Paul, but Gentile Christians also. None of the Body of Christ is exempt from that persecution.

 

[teleiosis]

What has been filled so far? And what is left?

It sais beggining of sorrows (sorrows trans- birth pangs) So beggining of birth pangs correct? And what are the birth pangs mentioned. And the beggining of them wouldnt require them to be in full motion right?

Well, I don't know if you're still reading this, but allow me to offer a different perspective from a literal mode of interpretation.

As far as the end-times themselves, the one 'seven' has yet to begin. I think the stage is set for it, but now it is a matter or politics. I think if you read about the "Roadmap" and the "Quartet," you will find that forces heading nations have been trying to "solve" the Middle East problem surround Jerusalem for nearly two decades now. They may try to "force" this on Israel, like they "prevailed" in handing the Gaza Strip over to the PLO. This unfortunate decision then saw Israeli soldiers forcibly evicting Israelis out of their homes. This type of political coercion, backed up by military might is exactly the type of action which is conveyed in the Hebrew word: gabar, which is mistranslated for us as the positive "confirm" a covenant. gabar as an adjective means to be strong, especially militarily, but as a verb, it means to prevail. Confirm usually has a more positive connotation to us in the modern English, but we're kind of stuck with it from Shakespearean times.

There is a very interesting article today in the Jerusalem Post about Netanyahu's efforts towards peace. I think it would behoove us to follow what is going on in Israel:
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=186341&newsletter=100829&utm_source=Pulseem&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=JPost%20Newsletter%2029/08

As far as the beginning of birth pains, I implore you to compare all three Synoptic Gospels of the Olivet Discourses' opening broad overview (Mt 24:4-14) to the first four Seals of Revelation 6. (Only Luke has the fourth Seal disease aspect.) I think there is a strong correlation between them. I also differ from most commentators in that I do not ascribe a strict 1:1 correlation between the years of the one 'seven' and the Seals. I think that is a matter or coincidence of number; nothing, absolutely nothing in the Bible dictates that construct. Viewed in this manner, we can look historically backward and I can provide evidence that the first four Seals have already been opened and that the conditions which they establish, allow for the rapid takeover by the beast of a man.

As far as Daniel 11:40 - 12:1, which is another linear narrative about the end-times, I would say that the King of the South has already attacked the King of the North in America, England, Spain, and Russia. And I would say that in response, the King of the North has sped out and invaded the King of the South. I think the War on Terror is the major cultural conflict which sets the stage for the end-times. This North/South battle will rage through the one 'seven' and will only be concluded at Armageddon, the final battle of the one 'seven,' but that the King of the North's victory there is Pyrrhic, being captured instead by Jesus and His army (and the 144,000 never leave His side) and finally brought to justice in Heaven after the one 'seven' is over.

So things are afoot.

I'd say we have a case of we're almost there but not yet. Keep watching and keep reading.

Please respond if you're still following this thread.

 

[fivesense]

Not true.

Acts 14:1
1 And it came to pass in Iconium, that they went both together into the synagogue of the Jews, and so spake, that a great multitude both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed.
(KJV)

Greeks are not Gentiles, the nations. This is an easy study that most students already acknowledge and understand.

AV Jn 12:20 . And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:

AV Ac 6:1 . And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

Gentiles were never allowed to eat with the Jews, so the Twelve's decision to cease distributing food to minister the word instead, is evidence that Hellenists were Jews. The masses of believing Jews would never have sat at the same table with Gentiles. Peter got trashed by them for obeying God in Cornelius' case, and Cornelius was already a devout proselyte to Judaism.

Acts 6:1, speaking of Hellenists, which the KJV interprets as Greeks and Grecians, are Jews, from outside the land and Jerusalem, who were traders, travelers, and from other countries, who were immersed in the Greek culture and ways. All Hellenists were Jews, or proselytes to the Jewish religion. Gentiles, ethnos, are always clearly declared as such, the nations.

fivesense

 

[Paul]

Greeks are not Gentiles, the nations. ...

Gentile (G1672)

G1672
Ἕλλην
Hellēn
hel'-lane
From G1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Jew: - Gentile, Greek.

 

[fivesense]

Gentile (G1672)

G1672
Ἕλλην
Hellēn
hel'-lane
From G1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Jew: - Gentile, Greek.

The excellent Dr. Strong has proven his worth to all. His works, however, are not beyond scrutiny and comparison with the revealed word of God.

Jn 7:34-35 ye will seek me, and ye shall not find; and where I am, ye are not able to come.'The Jews, therefore, said among themselves, 'Whither is this one about to go that we shall not find him?-to the dispersion of the Greeks is he about to go? and to teach the Greeks;

dispersion=G1290 diaspora dispersion, i.e.(specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries:--(which are) scattered (abroad)

Ac 9:26 And Saul, having come to Jerusalem, did try to join himself to the disciples, and they were all afraid of him, not believing that he is a disciple,

Ac 9:28-29 And he was with them, coming in and going out in Jerusalem, and speaking boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus, he was both speaking and disputing with the Hellenists, and they were taking in hand to kill him,

The Gentiles had no place to argue with Saul in Jerusalem, they would have been thrown out on their ear. There is no warrant for assuming, as did Dr. Strong, that Hellenas primarily meant Gentile. The evidence is powerful against such a conclusion.

Hellenist here is the same word Strong interprets, not translates, as Greek elsewhere. BE REMINDED: Dr. Strong's Concordance is based upon the King James Version of the Scriptures. It is not based upon the oldest Manuscripts available to us today, and the tremendous advancement of knowledge we now have about Greek language. It is limited to that version in its scope, and is biased accordingly. In fact, Dr Strong attests to its true meaning in his own work:

G1675 Hellenistes; a Hellenist or Greek-speaking Jew;--a Grecian

I recant," never" may be an error. I should have said, rarely is a Hellenist in the Scriptures identified as one of the Gentile nations. In those few cases where is seems to be true, there is sufficient reason to assume it does not mean Gentile, since nations (ethnos) is the word used consistently to describe the non-Jew.

This misunderstanding of the differences of the actors in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles cannot be removed without a concordant study of the words, and the illumination of Holy Spirit

fivesense

 

[Paul]

....the illumination of Holy Spirit

fivesense

Unfortunately most of the tribes of Israel also think they are gentiles.

 

[veteran]

Acts 13:42-43
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
(KJV)

Religious proselytes refer to Gentile converts to Judaism. This is why it is impossible to infer no Gentiles were allowed inside the synagogues at that time, or even today.

Those Jews who left the synagogue were probably those who rejected Paul's Message of The Gospel. Verse 43 reveals that some of the Jews along with those Gentile coverts did want to hear more. And that my friend is an early revelation of how Christ's Church was to manifest, of both believing Jew and believing Gentile, together as one Body.

Israel had this makeup in OT times, for God told Israel to not oppress the stranger that sojourned among them, for Israel were once strangers in Egypt (Exo.12:48-49; Exo. 22:21; Lev.19:33-34).

 

[veteran]

The excellent Dr. Strong has proven his worth to all. His works, however, are not beyond scrutiny and comparison with the revealed word of God.

Jn 7:34-35 ye will seek me, and ye shall not find; and where I am, ye are not able to come.'The Jews, therefore, said among themselves, 'Whither is this one about to go that we shall not find him?-to the dispersion of the Greeks is he about to go? and to teach the Greeks;

dispersion=G1290 diaspora dispersion, i.e.(specially and concretely) the (converted) Israelite resident in Gentile countries:--(which are) scattered (abroad)

Strong's no.1675 you quoted has another part you left out.

1675 Hellenistes
from a derivative of 1672;

1672 Hellen
from 1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek-speaking person, especially a non-Jew.

John 7:35
35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will He go, that we shall not find Him? will He go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles (1672), and teach the Gentiles (1672)?
(KJV)

The KJV translators were correct in translating that Greek word Hellen to "Gentiles" in the context of the John 7:35 verse. The Diaspora ("dispersed") in that verse is specifically about Jews that were scattered among the Gentile nations, living among the Gentiles.

But what you're trying to say creates an automatic contradiction, for if Hellen in that verse is meant as only Greek-speaking Jews, it would mean the Diaspora was only about Jews being scattered among other Jews, which does not make sense, and is definitely not the context of the John 7:35 verse, and not the prophecy God foretold Israel of how they would be scattered through the nations for disobeying Him. So Dr. Strong was correct in his definition of Hellen, being one from Hellas, the country of Greece.


Concerning the KJV translation, I would rather have a translation from the Greek manuscripts that are the majority of existing texts used over the widest geographical area rather than from texts like the Alexandrian which had a narrow dispersion and were few in number, and which has Gnostic corruptions. Just because the Alexandrian texts are a little older than the Byzantine texts usef for the KJV NT does not mean they are better. The KJV is still the most accurate English translation to date.

http://www.studytoan...ns/gnostic.html

 

[Rach1370]

Hello everyone, Im kinda new to christianity. Was saved a little over a month ago.

I read the Bible. And have learned a WHOLEEE lot by going to church and just learning. But im very interested in prophecy now, and would like to know what signs need to be filled or if they have already all been filled to expect a coming rapture.

What has been filled so far? And what is left?

It sais beggining of sorrows (sorrows trans- birth pangs) So beggining of birth pangs correct? And what are the birth pangs mentioned. And the beggining of them wouldnt require them to be in full motion right?

Kinda confused.. Help plz.

Hi grapplerforchrist! I just wanted to say how happy I am that you are now a brother/sister in Christ. I know you started this thread to get some clarity.....ahem! Hows that going? :blink:Yeah, everyone has a different idea on 'last days'. And while its a secondary issue, people tend to get very passionate about the subject!
I'm not going to tell you what I think, simply because I'm still trying to decide!
So....I would suggest a few things: pray! Find a really good church/bible teacher, a really good bible study group, and really grow in your faith!
As far as eschatology goes (the study of prophecy, the last days), I would suggest you finding pastors, teachers that you trust, that you KNOW are biblically sound, and find out what they think of this subject.
Honestly, you can find anything online, as well as in pages of books, so it is important that you know that the info you are getting is from someone who claims Jesus is Lord and God.
Also, keep an eye on the news, world wide. As you read your bible and talk to other Christians, it helps to keep in mind what's really going on out there.

Hope any of that helps!
Rach