He doesn't lead us blindly

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robert derrick

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You wrote:



Christ - who we call Jesus, and whose name is called "The Word of God (Rev 19:13) because He speaks to us and He reproves us (Rev 3:19) which is the "godly conviction given by Christ to all men. So you were right about Christ giving all men entering into the word conviction/reproof, but He does that by speaking to us, and His words our not our words - so His reproof is not our conscience!! It is His words of reproof to all men, but His words our not our words so not our conscience - LIKE YOU SAID!!!

Our conscience is our reproof to ourselves. So it ourselves decided what we are going to do. That is to say we reason in ourselves about what to do!

For example we reason in ourselves like: Do we want to take a change and park illegally when we could get a ticket or pay the parking fee and spend the money to make sure we don't get the ticket even though it will surely cost us now? We reason and usually come to the conclusion that we will pay the money for the parking ticket because it is the right thing to do. And we like to think we are good people - or maybe we need the money more than we need to be right. None of that is God speaking to us - but it is our reasoning, and our learning has a lot to do with that. If we were brought up in a household whose parents never paid a parking ticket but always tried to get away with things, our reasoning is different. It is more likely going to be not to get the ticket if we are pretty sure they never ticket there, and that is ok to some people and their consciences (reasoning) does not bother them because they are making the best decision.

Of course, they might also find religion and wind up being taught against it and taught to consider others and make attempts to abide by the Law. Still, that is following the Law, and the Lord passed down the Law when the people would not listen to Him.

A good example of this might be:

Acts 10:13-16 A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!”
But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.”
Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider [unholy.”
This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the [sky.

In the above example Peter's conscience was telling Peter not to listen to the Lord's voice, because Peter was going to do what he had learn to be right. So the voice of the Lord reproves Peter, and look "This happen three times" before Peter could get himself to go against his "conscience"!!!! So there is absolutely a difference between us going by what our conscience (our reasoning about what is right) and actually listening to the voice of the Lord.

And the "godly conviction" was not Peter's conscience but came from the Lord speaking to him!!!

So what you did actually write down " I say it is the godly conviction given by Christ" is wrong!! The 'godly conviction given by Christ' is not our conscience, it is Christ talking to us! Our conscience is our understanding of what's right and wrong, and that is learned!
And so, let's hear the end result of your doctrine:


Are you still sinning with works of the flesh, or are you now doing the righteousness of God as He is righteous?
 

amigo de christo

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And so, let's hear the end result of your doctrine:


Are you still sinning with works of the flesh, or are you now doing the righteousness of God as He is righteous?
this one love stuff is evil . We must contend for the truth and the true faith while there still be time to do so .
So many are now going under this false love we are one ruse .
 

robert derrick

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this one love stuff is evil . We must contend for the truth and the true faith while there still be time to do so .
So many are now going under this false love we are one ruse .
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
 
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Karl Peters

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Not always by words of voice. Sometimes we are convicted about something, and we don't even know why. Scripture says not to defile our conscience, whether we know why or not.
I could go though each of your points and show them wrong, but here are a few:

Not always by words pretty much means we don't listen with our spiritual ears to the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sin!!!

Over and over in the Bible we read about how people don't ear with their ears - when that happens the conviction of the Holy Spirit does not come by words of a voice - still Jesus explains that He reproves those He loves and that He stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears His voice and opens the door He will come into them..

So what's describe above is a person aware of the knock but unwilling to open up to the Lord

If we are convicted about something, we just don't do it. Any 'reasoning' is simple arguments to override our conscience.

Our conscience is not our mind, but is the brakelight of our heart.

If we lack wisdom in a certain matter, then we ask God, and go not by our own understanding. But that is not a matter of conscience, but only what is best to do in our affairs of life.

Reasoning is done in our "MIND" Now the word of God we preach is found in our heart and mouth, but that is the word of God not your conscience!!!

Now your conscience (our learned understanding of right and wrong) if you have come to know that Jesus Christ is indeed always tell you to seek the Lord for understanding!! So if you do know the Teacher/Wonderful Counselor/Word of God. Jesus Christ, then you conscience (that reasoning in your mind) will tell you about the "brakelight of our heart" and that He is Jesus Christ the Word of God!

The fact that someone's conscience does not tell them that means they are taking the Word of God and giving themselves credit for being God and not listening to God. So they are just leaning on their own understanding and not seek the words our Lord has for us

So contrary to what was written above our conscience, for those who do know the Lord, tells them to seek the Lord and that they are indeed doing that!

1 Tim 3:9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.

So as can be seen in the above verse, the Christian who knows the Lord holds on to faith that Jesus Christ is there to be inquired of by hearing Him with faith. If a person is indeed doing that, their conscience (their learned understanding of what is right and wrong) tells them that they are right to keep seeking the Lord Jesus Christ by faith!!

So the person whose conscience (their learned understanding) tells them it is right to lean on their own understanding and that they only need to seek the Lord if they lack wisdom, needs to learn a bit more! Paul said He tool all thoughts captive to Jesus Christ!!
This is not reasoning over what is good or evil, but is trying to change our conscience about it.

We can change our conscience by arguing against it, until it is seared.

God never changes our conscience by having us sear it, especially not by any spirit nor voice within.
Now that is funny - you argue that we can't change our conscience because it is somehow a fixed bit of understanding given to all men by God, then you argue that we are trying to change our conscience??

Either your first position was correct, that our conscience is a fix bit of understanding that God gave us, or it is our learned understanding modified by reasoning with in us. You are arguing against yourself!! However it is nice that your conscience seems to be adjusting to this conversation. Perhaps you will realize that and get better understanding. Still, to really get that you do need to actually take your thoughts to Jesus Christ.

When we don't do that, and we usually don't, the devil gets an opportunity to make us stubborn about not seeking the Lord and he tells us to lean on our on understanding.


Correct. It is us arguing against our conscience and God.

God never speaks to anyone about changing their conscience, except by first transforming our minds to be renewed with His knowledge of good and evil, that is only found in Scripture.

And while our minds are being transformed, our conscience remains pure and undefiled.
The above is the real problem!! The knowledge of good and evil if found from listening to the Lord and hearing His voice, which comes to us via the Holy Spirit!! It does not come from leaning on our understanding of the Bible!! The Scriptures are able to give us the wisdom to seek Jesus Christ, because they are a testimony about Jesus Christ and that we people can hear from Him, but understanding and knowledge come from His voice and not His book!!

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Note that they are able to, but that does mean they do, give a person the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Jesus Christ!!

And not that the Scriptures do not claim to give you wisdom that leads to leaning on your own understanding, and again your conscience is YOUR conscience!! So, it contains YOUR understanding of right and wrong, not His. If you indeed know Him (Jesus Christ the Word of God - but He who is not your Bible but the One your Bible tells you about) then your understanding of right and wrong (your conscience) will be telling you to seek Him and that you are trying to honestly do that!

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

The above scriptures proves you wrong in thinking your conscience is where you find knowledge and understanding. If the Lord has given you wisdom and the knowledge and understanding that comes from His mouth (not His writings but mouth) then you would be seeking His mouth and not your conscience for knowledge.

So where you write "
God never speaks to anyone about changing their conscience, except by first transforming our minds to be renewed with His knowledge of good and evil, that is only found in Scripture." You are wrong in several places!!

First: The Scriptures don't "renew" us - Jesus Christ does!!

Second: He does that by teaching us - which is why He is the Teacher!! Having the textbook does not mean you are taking the class the Teacher teachers!!

Third: Because our conscience is our learned underrstanding and Jesus Christ our Teacher, then our conscience is change by Him speaking to us. That in fact is what make our conscience good!! Only God is good (like the Scriptures explain) so the only good conscience is the conscience that has learned clearly that only God is good - so that it tells us to take all thoughts captive to Him and listen to what He tells us!! The Jews did not understand this which explains why Jesus told them:

Jn 5:39,40 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

And that is what we are reading about here. Someone thinks, " His knowledge of good and evil, that is only found in Scripture." Thereby testify that they don't go to Him so that they may have life! And so their conscience has not lead them to Jesus Christ and His words spoken to them personally, but rather their conscience lead the ONLY to the Scriptures!!
 

Karl Peters

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And so, let's hear the end result of your doctrine:


Are you still sinning with works of the flesh, or are you now doing the righteousness of God as He is righteous?
We are all sinners - those who actually believe in Jesus Christ who is the Word of God come to quickly understand this so they listen to Him believe that He is there! That is counted to them as righteousness!! So only those who believe in Him are saved!!

Let me help you with a few verses, because the Scriptures are good for reproof!!

Gen 15:1 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you; Your reward shall be very great.”

Gen 15:6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Abram didn't have a Bible - not one iota of Scriptures, but he did hear from the Lord and believe it was the Lord, who was the very great reward! That belief was "reckoned" to him as righteousness

Yet you have this testimony of the Lord written in the Bible and you don't believe in hearing Him - instead you wrote: " His knowledge of good and evil, that is only found in Scripture."

That is not what is written in the Scripture!!! Indeed the Scriptures show us that we are "reckoned" as being righteous if we believe in Him and that faith comes from hearing a word from Him!

1 Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Is that not what we see from you by the question you asked - that you somehow think the others are "still sinning with works of the flesh" implying that you are not! If so, and it seems so, then according to the Scriptures you are deceiving yourself adn the truth is not in you! Jesus Christ the Truth, and He said He reproves those He loves! It seems you don't understand this, or how else can we explain what you wrote? That "His knowledge of good and evil, that is only found in Scripture."

I find it amazing, that you claim to know the Bible and have not read: Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Good and evil is in the spiritual realm around us! We are talking God and the heavenly host that serve Him verses, Satan and those who fell with him. And just like we find that the Kingdom of God is in our midst, we also find the principle that evil is present in us!!

Rom 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

Paul the Christan man who knew the Lord wrote that!! Saul, that Pharisee who did not know the Lord and by his understanding, and according to his conscience, was heading to Damascus to help protect God against those early Christian who did actually know the Lord.

Therefore, the Christian who really does actually know the Lord understand the battle with good and evil! They understand that battle is in them. They understand the principle that evil is present in them. So, they do not deceive themselves into thinking that don't have sin!!!

That is what the man who like the Pharisees, tell themselves they are right by following their conscience (what they learned was right and wrong) They don't even know about the battle with good and evil in their midst! So they judge others to be those " still sinning with works of the flesh", and fail to see the log in their own eye!! They say the Scriptures have all that God ever spoke to me, thereby deny the presence of Jesus Christ! So they write things like "His knowledge of good and evil, that is only found in Scripture." - not realizing that both good and evil is found in their midst.

Now then, all they have to go by is their conscience (there understanding of good and evil), because with their ears they barely hear and with their eyes they don't see. They have no discernment of spirit (good and evil) They think they are good and fail to realize that only God is good. So they don't repent and seek Him. They don't even want any reproof that might tell them to seek the voice of the Lord for His reproof!!

Is there even any hope for them??? Yes - there is still the hope that at sometime they might really need the Lord
 

robert derrick

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Not always by words pretty much means we don't listen with our spiritual ears to the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sin!!!
Now you are talking about convicting our conscience by voice of the spirit, which is absolutely true

That's not the same as giving instruction by the Spirit, that could require defiling our conscience.

God does no compel liberty of conscience, and forbids the stronger in conscience to do so with the weaker, and wound his conscience.

But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?


But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

Until you understand these Scriptures, you will not understand what I am teaching.

There's only one question here: do you say that spiritual growth can come by obeying the voice of spirit, even if we have to override and defile our conscience to do so?

Peter didn't.
 

Karl Peters

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Now you are talking about convicting our conscience by voice of the spirit, which is absolutely true

That's not the same as giving instruction by the Spirit, that could require defiling our conscience.

God does no compel liberty of conscience, and forbids the stronger in conscience to do so with the weaker, and wound his conscience.

But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?


But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.

Until you understand these Scriptures, you will not understand what I am teaching.

There's only one question here: do you say that spiritual growth can come by obeying the voice of spirit, even if we have to override and defile our conscience to do so?

Peter didn't.
The only question here is whether you are seeking the voice of the Lord and listening to Him!!

That is really the only question of importance!!

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Luke 10: 41,42 But the Lord answered and said to her, “Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things; but only one thing is necessary, for Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her.”

Silly man - God made us so He does not defile us, even our conscience, He teaches us!!!

You like writing "what I am teaching", but I am trying to turn people to the Lord's teaching!!! And if you are being taught of God then you should know that it is not "Until you understand these Scriptures", but rather it is "Until you actually start listening to the Teacher!"

Amazing - it was the Teacher who explained to me that as people our conscience it our learned understanding of right and wrong. Not His but ours, and He gave us come ability to learn, because it was always part of His plan to teach us - and especially about right and wrong. But you thought our conscience was a fix bit of understanding and it was good - when if you had been listening to Him you would have understood that only God is good, and that understanding not from reading the Scriptures but from just hearing Him talk to you. Anyone spending just a little bit of time would understand that, because He reproves those He loves. He does that - if you listen to Him!

So the person saying "what I am teaching you", has got a serious problem in their understanding! It is always about Him teaching us, and Him doing that makes our understanding, even the understanding of our conscience (which is our understanding of right and wrong) better.

So where did you get the idea "instruction by the Spirit, that could require defiling our conscience"???

Who told you that???

Instructions from our Lord Jesus Christ via His Holy Spirit, who does not ever speak on His own imitative but He takes the words of God which belong to the Son and brings them to our spirit so that we hear the words of our Lord Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit, and those words give us life - they do not defile us!!! They improve us!!

So if the Lord, being good and our Teacher, helps improve and doesn't defile us - Who would be the being or beings telling us that God defiles us??? Any discernment of spirits here??


Ok - I understand that we are all works of God in progress, and me too, but it is not that hard to understand. God loves us and wants to help us, but we don't want to listen!
 

robert derrick

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The above is the real problem!! The knowledge of good and evil if found from listening to the Lord and hearing His voice, which comes to us via the Holy Spirit!! It does not come from leaning on our understanding of the Bible!! The Scriptures are able to give us the wisdom to seek Jesus Christ, because they are a testimony about Jesus Christ and that we people can hear from Him, but understanding and knowledge come from His voice and not His book!!

If the Scriptures are not necessary to know good from evil, then you are teaching how to be as gods, knowing good and evil for yourself by your own spiritual voice.

The Spirit of truth guides us into all truth of Scripture. Any voice not confirmed by Scripture as true, is not the voice of the true Spirit of Christ.

Nor does it lead us to Christ, nor as Christ:

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


You want to tell me about Jesus? Quote the Scriptures as written, even as He does of Himself.

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Note that they are able to, but that does mean they do, give a person the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Jesus Christ!!
Sophistry.

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Which are written in Scriptures by the prophets and apostles.

First: The Scriptures don't "renew" us - Jesus Christ does!!

Scripture renews our minds by the Spirit of truth.
Second: He does that by teaching us - which is why He is the Teacher!! Having the textbook does not mean you are taking the class the Teacher teachers!!

And so, the Bible is just a textbook to you, that may even be in the wrong class.

Jn 5:39,40 “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.



And that is what we are reading about here. Someone thinks, " His knowledge of good and evil, that is only found in Scripture." Thereby testify that they don't go to Him so that they may have life! And so their conscience has not lead them to Jesus Christ and His words spoken to them personally, but rather their conscience lead the ONLY to the Scriptures!!

Jesus was speaking to the unbelieving Jews, that were making their own doctrine and commandments out of scripture, not believing the Scriptures as written.


but rather their conscience lead the ONLY to the Scriptures!!

Their unbelief lead them to corrupt the Scriptures and reject Jesus as Lord and Savior


We are all sinners -

Sorry, but I already knew how to sin against God before I got saved.

And I don't see anything new in your OSAS teaching.

Let's just say that the apostle Paul was not the chiefest of sinners, and he didn't empathize with those in the bondage of double heartedness in Romans 7, in order to make it a life-long endeavor by grace.

Look, I know you are passionate and much learned, and have it all sorted out for yourself, and you say some fascinating things.

But unfortunately, the moment we depart from scripture as the final authority on all voices and spirits, then we give ourselves into the hands of a spirit that knows exactly how to lead us into a great darkness, that we think is great light:

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.


God never says a single word out of His mouth, that is not found as true in Scripture.

Now, if you want to talk about being personally led by the voice of Jesus through faith, without defiling the conscience to do so, as did Abraham, then I'd be glad to.

I can also instruct you by Scripture how to stop doing the sinful works of the flesh, beginning with:

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


We can also go further with your near correct teaching on spiritual warfare within.

It's not yet completed in your mind, which is why you still fall and do sinful works of the flesh.
 
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robert derrick

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So where did you get the idea "instruction by the Spirit, that could require defiling our conscience"???

Who told you that???

That as opposed to actually listening to the small voice of Jesus Christ our Lord and believing that because He is Lord we need do what He askes even when we don't understand of even think it is the right think to do!
Are you saying you misspoke here?

Or is it not the same thing as going against our own conscience?

And, Peter didn't obey God to do what he didn't think was right.
 

robert derrick

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The only question here is whether you are seeking the voice of the Lord and listening to Him!!

That is really the only question of importance!!

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Luke 10: 41,42 But the Lord answered and said to her, “Martha, Martha, you are worried and bothered about so many things; but only one thing is necessary, for Mary has chosen the good part, which shall not be taken away from her.”

Silly man - God made us so He does not defile us, even our conscience, He teaches us!!!

You like writing "what I am teaching", but I am trying to turn people to the Lord's teaching!!! And if you are being taught of God then you should know that it is not "Until you understand these Scriptures", but rather it is "Until you actually start listening to the Teacher!"

Amazing - it was the Teacher who explained to me that as people our conscience it our learned understanding of right and wrong. Not His but ours, and He gave us come ability to learn, because it was always part of His plan to teach us - and especially about right and wrong. But you thought our conscience was a fix bit of understanding and it was good - when if you had been listening to Him you would have understood that only God is good, and that understanding not from reading the Scriptures but from just hearing Him talk to you. Anyone spending just a little bit of time would understand that, because He reproves those He loves. He does that - if you listen to Him!

So the person saying "what I am teaching you", has got a serious problem in their understanding! It is always about Him teaching us, and Him doing that makes our understanding, even the understanding of our conscience (which is our understanding of right and wrong) better.

So where did you get the idea "instruction by the Spirit, that could require defiling our conscience"???

Who told you that???

Instructions from our Lord Jesus Christ via His Holy Spirit, who does not ever speak on His own imitative but He takes the words of God which belong to the Son and brings them to our spirit so that we hear the words of our Lord Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit, and those words give us life - they do not defile us!!! They improve us!!

So if the Lord, being good and our Teacher, helps improve and doesn't defile us - Who would be the being or beings telling us that God defiles us??? Any discernment of spirits here??


Ok - I understand that we are all works of God in progress, and me too, but it is not that hard to understand. God loves us and wants to help us, but we don't want to listen!
I appreciate you. I really do. I think you have a fine mind for discerning and learning. Unfortunately, it is not disciplined enough by scripture.

When every word you speak, is confirmed by Scripture, then your words will be from the mouth of God every time.

Without Scripture to prove our thoughts, then our spiritual understanding gets sloppy at best, and diving into a pit at worst.
 

Karl Peters

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I appreciate you. I really do. I think you have a fine mind for discerning and learning. Unfortunately, it is not disciplined enough by scripture.

When every word you speak, is confirmed by Scripture, then your words will be from the mouth of God every time.

Without Scripture to prove our thoughts, then our spiritual understanding gets sloppy at best, and diving into a pit at worst.
Is 6:10 “Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed.”

Mat 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

Everything you write shows that with your ears you scarcely hear!!!

Let's take a look at the things you wrote - they all show this problem - so I will take a few:

If the Scriptures are not necessary to know good from evil, then you are teaching how to be as gods, knowing good and evil for yourself by your own spiritual voice.

The Spirit of truth guides us into all truth of Scripture. Any voice not confirmed by Scripture as true, is not the voice of the true Spirit of Christ.

Nor does it lead us to Christ, nor as Christ:
Have you not read that discernment is a gift from the Holy Spirit?

1 Cor 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

The Pharisees studied the Scriptures and thought Jesus had a demon - so Jesus had to explain to them that their father was the devil. If they were hearing from the Holy Spirit they would know to seek Jesus Christ as their Lord and listen to Him, but they didn't know Him even though He stood in front of them. And Jesus is still in front of us!! So if anyone (this could include you but doesn't according to you testimony), because you don't hear from Him. It does not read "The Spirit of truth guides us into all truth of Scripture" it reads:

Jn 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Jesus Christ is the Truth, not the Scriptures!! The Scriptures also have words from the Liar, Satan! It has others lying and doing wrong also. Yes - they are used as an example of what not to do - Like Jesus telling the Jews:

Jn 5:39,40 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

So you read the Scriptures, which explain that they testify about Jesus Christ and that people make the mistake of thinking the Scriptures are going to save them, so they don't turn to Jesus Christ - the Truth!

Jn 14:6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

So it's not all "truth of Scriptures" but simply "into all the truth" - You got it wrong - meaning not the truth! You would know that if you actually listened to Him!! He doesn't just talk to you about the Scriptures, He talks to you about all parts of your life!! You would know that if you really knew Him!!
Scripture renews our minds by the Spirit of truth.

Jesus was speaking to the unbelieving Jews, that were making their own doctrine and commandments out of scripture, not believing the Scriptures as written.
Making your own doctrine out of the scripture, is exactly what you are doing!! The way to not do that is to stop leaning on your own understanding and seek Him in all you do!!

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.

What happens is that you take a verse like the above, thinking that the Lord is not around to actually talk to us today, so you lean on your own understanding of the scriptures, even though the scriptures say "Trust in the LORD" and not trust in the Scriptures. So the scriptures are right, in telling you to trust in Him, but to trust in Him you first have to seek Him and hear from HIm, but you don't believe in Him - that He is always their to talk to you! Paul put it like this:

Rom 10:3-8 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

That is what's happening with you. You say in your heart that Jesus Christ is either still dead and not risen or He is in a far off place called heaven, so that you can actually hear words from Him so instead you think the Bible has all the words from God we have! So the word of God you preach is in the writings instead of in your heart. Perhaps you tell your self that you can memorize the Bible and get the word in your heart, but that is still saying that Jesus is either still dead of in a far off place called heaven - it is still saying that you can't hear from Him - That is not the word of God we are preaching, but you can't understand it because you don't hear His words!!

Jn 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

Their unbelief lead them to corrupt the Scriptures and reject Jesus as Lord and Savior

You are rejecting Jesus Christ - as pointed out above. And it is you who has corrupted the Scriptures, because you don't believe in Jesus Christ!! Believing in Jesus Christ means believing in Him who said He would never leave us, and said He lead us with His voice, but you keep thinking you are to be lead by the Scriptures. You don't know what it is like to say "Good morning Lord" and hear Him respond with that small voice of His. You don't know what it is like to go to the grocery store and have Him help you pick out what to get. And you certainly don't know what it is like to work in a ministry and hear Him tell you that the person inf ront of you has a bad elbow or shoulder, or... so that you asked them about it, find out they He told you the truth again, and you then pray and He heals it. I can tell you, and testify about it, but you won't accept our testimony about Him.

Jn 3:11 “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

So it is all explained in the Scriptures, but to understand you have to actually listen to Him. It doesn't come by leaning on your own understanding, but by actually listening to what comes out of His mouth - just like it is written in the Scriptures!

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

Let's just say that the apostle Paul was not the chiefest of sinners, and he didn't empathize with those in the bondage of double heartedness in Romans 7, in order to make it a life-long endeavor by grace.
Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

You just don't get it!! Of course Paul was not " chiefest of sinners", but he was a man who because he knew the Lord actually realized that he was a "Wretched man", and thus was asking the question "Who will set me free from the body of this death?"

Now Saul, l that Pharisee who didn't know the Lord, and was thinking pridefully that he was doing God a great service by heading off to put Christians in jail, based on his own understanding of right and wrong. He had no idea that he was a "Wretched man" needing the help of the Lord. Saul didn't understand, but Paul did!!

If you know the Lord what you find out is that He is God and you are not!! That He is right, and you are not!! That He knows what should be done and you don't! That you are so far off from being righteous that you have to talk to Him! And the closer you get to Him, and the more you talk to Him, but more certain of all this you become. Yes, Paul was not the "" chiefest of sinners"! Saul was much closer to that. Yet Paul was better because he knew that he was a sinner in need of Jesus Christ - which Saul didn't know!

Again - you don't get it. Because we know the perfect One, we know we are "wretched men", need Him. So we seek Him and advise others to do the same! We also try harder not to be so bad, though out best efforts are never going to be good enough. The knowing how you are (a sinner) means you try to do better and seek the Lord!
 

Karl Peters

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The thread was that He doesn't lead us blindly - the reason He doesn't lead us blindly is that He gives us ears to hear and eyes to see.

Since God is spirit, what we are talking about is spiritual senses, not physical senses. Most everyone has physical senses and thus physical eyes to see and physical ears to hear. What most people do not have is spiritual eyes to see, and spiritual ears to hear what is going on around them in the spiritual realm.

Now God has given you spiritual eyes and ears, and other spiritual senses too - the problem is that we don't use them!!

If a person does start to use their spiritual sense; the first thing they would find out is that God is omni-present! And quickly they would also find out that the Spirit of God is not the only spirit around. There are also angels and demons - meaning spirits that serve the Lord and don't serve the Lord.

Now there are more (spirits) with you than are against you, and the Lord is the King of kings and Lord or lords - meaning that He is in control, even when we don't think so. Still, He also gave men freewill - the ability to make choices! He explained to men that He has put in front of us both good and evil, and that we should choice good! It is also explained that only God is good, and of us it is written, "If you being evil...."

This is what I am talking about when I say that God does not lead us blindly!!

He makes you aware of all this - That our battle is not with flesh and blood - meaning other people! The Lord our God, Jesus Christ, does not want any person to perish! Indeed, He has paid the price Himself for our sins, so that only one thing is truly needed! That one thing is to believe in Him - and they will mean that you will seek Him and what He has to say to you. You don't believe in Him if you don't believe He is always with you!! He is and always has been the great I AM, so if you seek Him you will find Him! You will not be left blind and deaf, but He will have His Holy Spirit bring you His words to your spirit.

It is a relationship with us the He wants!! You and Him will going walking and talking together!! Meaning that you will speak to Him personally about the personal things that you think about in your life. He will respond as a friend would respond, and give you wonderful advice, teachings, and instructions that help you. He will give you wisdom - and that gives you understanding and knowledge - like about what is going on around you in the spiritual realm.

You find out that it is you who is battling with the dark spiritual forces of this world!!

Yes, you also become aware that other people are, like you, also battling with the dark spiritual forces of this world too! Yet it is you who needs help, the kind of help that only comes via the Kingdom of God - thus through the King of kings. And yes, you will want to help others by trying to make them aware so that they turn to the King (Jesus Christ) also,

Sadly, too often people are not willing to seek the Lord Jesus Christ!! Because of their pride in themselves, they don't want to listen to Him, so they are not willing to actually seek Him. So they not only don't believe in Him, they refuse to believe in Him!!

When that happens people often lie to themselves, and by doing that they tell themselves the God is not omni-present - that He must still be dead or in a far-off place called heaven. So when they refuse they usually tell themselves that the Scriptures will save them - which just means they will proclaim themselves to be an expert on the Scriptures and that means they believe in Jesus Christ. Thus the word of God to them become the line on line of text in the Scriptures, which was written order on order by the men who did actually hear from the Christ as the word of God, and they study the Scriptures a little here and there to convince themselves they are godly men.

None of that 'line on line, here a little there a little,' studying of the orderly lines in the Bible will help them! zndeed it has just made them more blind to what is going on around them. So they are snared by the demons and taken captive by those religious spirits! They are fully and truly blind, and their pride they have accumulated from seeking their own wisdom instead of God's makes it very hard to actually turn them back to Jesus Christ. Their pride makes them twice as stubborn as before. Perhaps they have to be dragged down so low that they have to reconsider their own thinking and so that they may start seeking our Lord Jesus Christ.

God did make sure that is covered in the Scriptures:

Is 28: 12,13 He who said to them, “Here is rest, give rest to the weary, ”And, “Here is repose,” but they would not listen.
So the word of the LORD to them will be, “Order on order, order on order, Line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there,” That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.

This is why we see so many people preaching the Bible as the Word of God - when the Bible quite clearly explains that Jesus is the Word of God!

Jn 1:1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
Rev 19:13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision, saying, “Do not fear, Abram, I am a shield to you;
Your reward shall be very great.”

Jesus Christ is named the Word of God because His sheep do hear His voice. He is indeed our very great reward for believing in Him!!!

We get Him as our Saviour, as our Teacher, as our Wonderful Counselor, as our Friend we walk and talk with, as our Healer and we see the miracles, as our Provider, as our King who is over the Kingdom of God - and most importantly we come to know Him as the One who loves us soooooo much that we cannot even understand the depths of His love for us. He did not leave us blind. He does not lead us blindly.

So we sing songs like "What a Friend we have in Jesus" - Yeah, those people stuck in their pride who call the Bible the Word of God instead of Him also are seen singing that same song, but He is not their friend or they would be talking back and forth with them. So they just give is lip service. That is also covered in the Scriptures, but reading it didn't help them because it wasn't followed up with faith in Jesus Christ as the Word of God and great I Am. They just will not believe He wants to talk to them.

Is 29:13 Then the Lord said,
“Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service,
But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,

PEOPLE - WHEN YOU DRAW NEAR TO THE KING DO SO WITH THE INTENT TO LISTEN TO HIM. THEN HE WILL TREAT YOU AS A SERVANT, A FRIEND, A SON, AND EVEN LIKESOMEONE HE LOVES

HE WON'T LEAVE YOU BLIND AND SO HE WON'T LEAD YOU BLINDLY - LIKE A PERSON WHO OPENS THE BOOK AND CAN NOT SEE THAT GOD IS ALWAYS WITH THEM TO BE HEARD FROM.
 

robert derrick

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Is 6:10 “Render the hearts of this people insensitive, Their ears dull, And their eyes dim,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed.”

Mat 13:15 FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL, WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS, AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN, AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.'

Everything you write shows that with your ears you scarcely hear!!!

Let's take a look at the things you wrote - they all show this problem - so I will take a few:


Have you not read that discernment is a gift from the Holy Spirit?

1 Cor 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

The Pharisees studied the Scriptures and thought Jesus had a demon - so Jesus had to explain to them that their father was the devil. If they were hearing from the Holy Spirit they would know to seek Jesus Christ as their Lord and listen to Him, but they didn't know Him even though He stood in front of them. And Jesus is still in front of us!! So if anyone (this could include you but doesn't according to you testimony), because you don't hear from Him. It does not read "The Spirit of truth guides us into all truth of Scripture" it reads:

Jn 16:13 “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Jesus Christ is the Truth, not the Scriptures!! The Scriptures also have words from the Liar, Satan! It has others lying and doing wrong also. Yes - they are used as an example of what not to do - Like Jesus telling the Jews:

Jn 5:39,40 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

So you read the Scriptures, which explain that they testify about Jesus Christ and that people make the mistake of thinking the Scriptures are going to save them, so they don't turn to Jesus Christ - the Truth!

Jn 14:6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

So it's not all "truth of Scriptures" but simply "into all the truth" - You got it wrong - meaning not the truth! You would know that if you actually listened to Him!! He doesn't just talk to you about the Scriptures, He talks to you about all parts of your life!! You would know that if you really knew Him!!



Making your own doctrine out of the scripture, is exactly what you are doing!! The way to not do that is to stop leaning on your own understanding and seek Him in all you do!!

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.

What happens is that you take a verse like the above, thinking that the Lord is not around to actually talk to us today, so you lean on your own understanding of the scriptures, even though the scriptures say "Trust in the LORD" and not trust in the Scriptures. So the scriptures are right, in telling you to trust in Him, but to trust in Him you first have to seek Him and hear from HIm, but you don't believe in Him - that He is always their to talk to you! Paul put it like this:

Rom 10:3-8 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,

That is what's happening with you. You say in your heart that Jesus Christ is either still dead and not risen or He is in a far off place called heaven, so that you can actually hear words from Him so instead you think the Bible has all the words from God we have! So the word of God you preach is in the writings instead of in your heart. Perhaps you tell your self that you can memorize the Bible and get the word in your heart, but that is still saying that Jesus is either still dead of in a far off place called heaven - it is still saying that you can't hear from Him - That is not the word of God we are preaching, but you can't understand it because you don't hear His words!!

Jn 8:43 “Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.



You are rejecting Jesus Christ - as pointed out above. And it is you who has corrupted the Scriptures, because you don't believe in Jesus Christ!! Believing in Jesus Christ means believing in Him who said He would never leave us, and said He lead us with His voice, but you keep thinking you are to be lead by the Scriptures. You don't know what it is like to say "Good morning Lord" and hear Him respond with that small voice of His. You don't know what it is like to go to the grocery store and have Him help you pick out what to get. And you certainly don't know what it is like to work in a ministry and hear Him tell you that the person inf ront of you has a bad elbow or shoulder, or... so that you asked them about it, find out they He told you the truth again, and you then pray and He heals it. I can tell you, and testify about it, but you won't accept our testimony about Him.

Jn 3:11 “Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.

So it is all explained in the Scriptures, but to understand you have to actually listen to Him. It doesn't come by leaning on your own understanding, but by actually listening to what comes out of His mouth - just like it is written in the Scriptures!

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.


Rom 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

You just don't get it!! Of course Paul was not " chiefest of sinners", but he was a man who because he knew the Lord actually realized that he was a "Wretched man", and thus was asking the question "Who will set me free from the body of this death?"

Now Saul, l that Pharisee who didn't know the Lord, and was thinking pridefully that he was doing God a great service by heading off to put Christians in jail, based on his own understanding of right and wrong. He had no idea that he was a "Wretched man" needing the help of the Lord. Saul didn't understand, but Paul did!!

If you know the Lord what you find out is that He is God and you are not!! That He is right, and you are not!! That He knows what should be done and you don't! That you are so far off from being righteous that you have to talk to Him! And the closer you get to Him, and the more you talk to Him, but more certain of all this you become. Yes, Paul was not the "" chiefest of sinners"! Saul was much closer to that. Yet Paul was better because he knew that he was a sinner in need of Jesus Christ - which Saul didn't know!

Again - you don't get it. Because we know the perfect One, we know we are "wretched men", need Him. So we seek Him and advise others to do the same! We also try harder not to be so bad, though out best efforts are never going to be good enough. The knowing how you are (a sinner) means you try to do better and seek the Lord!

So long as you teach spiritual growth by spiritual voices, that demand we defile our conscience to do so, you teach searing the conscience in the name of spiritual growth.

Peter did not go against his conscience and eat of the unclean beasts, and God did not reprove him for it.

And reducing Scripture to a mere textbook, that does not apply to spiritual understanding, nor is allowed to test the spirits, is a recipe for spiritually rising into the air, with the prince and power thereof.

And finally, with all your long spirit conversations, your teaching results in still being an OSAS sinner, still doing works of the flesh.
 

Karl Peters

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So long as you teach spiritual growth by spiritual voices, that demand we defile our conscience to do so, you teach searing the conscience in the name of spiritual growth.

Peter did not go against his conscience and eat of the unclean beasts, and God did not reprove him for it.

And reducing Scripture to a mere textbook, that does not apply to spiritual understanding, nor is allowed to test the spirits, is a recipe for spiritually rising into the air, with the prince and power thereof.

And finally, with all your long spirit conversations, your teaching results in still being an OSAS sinner, still doing works of the flesh.

Peter "listen" with His spiritual ears!!

Peter also saw with His spiritual eyes!!

But you make a declaration that he didn't hear spiritual voice only because you don't. So you don't go by the Bible but instead you lean on your own understanding. Your conscience is your understanding about right and wrong.

On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray.

Acts 10:9-16 A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!”
But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance;
and he *saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground,
and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air.
A voice came to him, “Get up, Peter, kill and eat!”
But Peter said, “By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean.”
Again a voice came to him a second time, “What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.”
This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

That is what it is like to get "spiritual growth" - You hear the 'spiritual voice' of the One you know personally as your Lord Jesus Christ. And often you also pick up a vision with your spiritual eyes. And this is a great example of what it is like, because you often find yourself getting in a small argument with the Lord, because He reproves those He loves. So like Peter, He often tells you things with which you have to adjust your thinking to His, because His thoughts are not your thoughts, as high as the heaven is above the earth so are His thoughts above your thoughts. So Peter, by his conscience starts denying the words of God. Showing that Peter had a conscience (his learing of what is right and wrong, and eating anything unholy and unclean, was against Peter's conscience, but that was because Peter's conscience was not God's thinking! Peter, like most men, was thinking in fleshy terms but God was thinking in spiritual terms!! And that is exactly your problem, but Peter at least listened to the "voice of the Lord" where as you don't and even despise listening to any spiritual voice, so what part of the Kingdom of God do you have? None- because His Kingdom is not of this world!! You are not at all like Peter, and anyone looking logically at the Scriptures and your comments can see that!


In fact it is just amusing that you talk about "spiritual growth" when you don't listen with your spiritual eyes and ears - you don't even see how what you write is opposite of what you write??

You talk about spiritual growth but you don't use your spiritual senses!!

Heb 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

And the Scriptures are the text book the Lord uses if you do listen to Him, but you have tried to elevate the Scriptures to God, as if the Scriptures are alive. The Scriptures are writings!! They are writings from people who indeed heard "spiritual voices"!! Namely the Spirit of God but also other spirits!! Having spiritual ears to hear, means you hear spirits!

Discernment of spirits is about discerning whether a spirit is serving The Lord our God, Jesus Christ, or not. And to figure that out you have to have spiritual ears to hear!!!!


1 Jn 4: 1-3 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

See the test above???? A person who can't hear with their spiritual ears cannot possibly use that test!! Because a person who doesn't hear "spiritual voices" can test to see if the spirit talking to them is confessing that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh or does not confess Jesus!!!

YOU HAVE TO HEAR "SPIRITUAL VOICES" (THE VOICES OF SPIRITS) TO KNOW WHAT THEY ARE CONFESSING AND OR NOT CONFESSING!!

Thus anyone not hearing the "spiritual voices" has not ability to discern between good and evil spirits!! And like learning to play the piano, the more you practice using your spiritual sense the better you get better at dealing with spirits!! The person that doesn't hear and see with their spiritual ears and eyes is in the dark!! The Light of this world (Jesus Christ) is not in them!!

That was not the case with Peter. Peter heard with his spiritual ears and saw with his spiritual eyes, as clearly explained in the Scriptures!!

That is what it is truly like to be a Christian - you hear with your spiritual ears and see with your spiritual eyes. OH - I know most Christians don't practice hearing and seeing with our spiritual ears and eyes like we should. I know I don't. I admit to spending more time operating in the flesh instead of walking and talking with Jesus Christ all day long, but I hear from Him a dozen different times each day

And He also sends angels to minister to me. So, I test the spirits, and know something about this, whereas the person who thinks the Bible is something other than God's textbook is making an idol out of the Bible!! God is spirit but it IS NOT (Father, Son, Spirit, and Holy Bible)

Silly man - Did you not ever have Him point out the obvious to you:

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

You still think the Scriptures are going to save you like they have power! They are writings, but if you don't believe them then how are you going to start hearing from the Lord, who is the King of kings and also sends His ministering angle to speak to those who will inherit salvation. So if you have not heard from the Kingdom of God, then you should at least start talking to Him about if you are indeed one who will inherit salvation>

Heb 1: 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

Yeah - I hear spiritual voices. That means I know the Lord Jesus Christ, and it means the He has provided me a light to see what is going on around me in the spirit realm, meaning I test the spirit - just like it is written - and it also means that I also have Him send me His Holy Angels to watch over me and minister to me also. Obviously you know about none of this, but only your conscience which has been telling you to not seek the Lord Jesus Christ and His Kingdom, but you conscience has you leaning on your own understanding of the Scriptures thinking that is going to give you "spiritual growth". Too bad, the Scriptures are good for study and reproof, but that is done by the Teacher not you conscience!! Just check out what the Bible actually says!! Peter got taught lessons from the Lord, which corrected his faulty understanding that his conscience had - but that from actually using his spiritual senses!!
 

Karl Peters

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People - God does not blindly lead you. He doesn't leave you unaware of what is going on around you in the heavens/spiritual realm around you!! Satan does that!! Satan wants you thinking that you can be like God and gets you doubting that God speaks to you.

Gen 3:1Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?”

Gen 3: 5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

In the above two verse we see the main ways that snake tries to get at us. First is to get us to doubt that God speaks to us - by saying things like "Indeed, has God said" - It doesn't have to be those exact words, but that is the general sense of what he tries to do! If someone starts trying to make fun of you by saying something like, "Oh so you hear voices", is hooked up with the devil, thought they probably don't realize it. God does speaks to us, and since the Lord is the King of kings - when you do get to know Him He will send His angels that serve Him to minister to you. So that when you hear from Him, them, and that snake and those who fell with him, you come to understand that our battle is with the dark spiritual forces of this world. Your ability to discern good and evil improves, and He can then go over meatier subjects with you.

Still - the second thing you start learning is that you are not smarter than God!! It is not even close!! Even Jesus doesn't consider knowing the depths of God something to be known. So discerning of spirts is just a prelude to taking all thoughts captive to Him,.and listening to what He has to say about it. He doesn't lead us blindly, but that doesn't mean we can think like God. He once told me, "Karl, I am the master of the butterfly effect." If you don't know, the butterfly effect is that a butterfly taking off on one side of the world has an effect, albeit very small, on the weather on the other side of the world. It is too small for us to figure but not too small for God to consider and to maybe influence things by doing small things.

So leaning on your best understanding is never going to be like listening to the Lord!!
 

Johann

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The only question here is whether you are seeking the voice of the Lord and listening to Him!!
What voice? Audible, apart from scriptures?
received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

This question supposes they had received the Spirit; that is, the Spirit of God, as a spirit of wisdom and knowledge in the revelation of Christ; as a spirit of regeneration and sanctification; as a spirit of faith and adoption; and as the earnest, seal, and pledge of their future glory.

Now the apostle asks, whether they received this Spirit "by the works of the law"; meaning, either whether they could imagine, that they by their obedience to the law had merited and procured the Spirit of God; or whether they thought that the Spirit came to them, and into their hearts, through the doctrine or preaching of the law:

the former could not be true, for if they could not obtain righteousness and life by the works of the law, then not the Spirit; besides, works done without the Spirit of God, are not properly good works:

not the latter, for though by the law is the knowledge of sin, yet this leaves nothing but a sense of wrath and damnation in the conscience; it is the killing letter, and a ministration of condemnation and death, and not of the Spirit, and of life;


this belongs to the Gospel, "or the hearing of faith"; for by "faith", is meant the Gospel, and particularly the doctrine of justification by faith in Christ's righteousness; and by "the hearing" of it, the preaching of it, the report of it, Isa_53:1 which, in the Hebrew text, is שמעתנו, "our hearing", that by which the Gospel is heard and understood.


Now in this way the Spirit of God is received; while the Gospel is preaching he falls on them that hear it, conveys himself into their hearts, and begets them again by the word of truth: and in this way the Galatians came by the Spirit, and which is another aggravation of their folly, that they should enjoy so great an advantage by the Gospel, and yet be so easily removed from it.
Gill

Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law - This may refer to the miraculous gifts of the Spirit, which were very common in the apostolic Church. Did ye receive these extraordinary gifts in consequence of your circumcision, and observing the Mosaic precepts? or was it by the hearing of the Gospel, prescribing faith in Christ crucified? It may also refer to the spirit of adoption, and consequently to their sonship.

Note, (1.) It is usually by the ministry of the gospel that the Spirit is communicated to persons. And, (2.) Those are very unwise who suffer themselves to be turned away from the ministry and doctrine which have been blessed to their spiritual advantage.


What "voice?"
Scriptures not enough?
J.
 

Johann

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jN 5:38-41“You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.
ou search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
“I do not receive glory from men;"
Search the Scriptures,.... The writings of Moses, and the prophets, which were of divine inspiration and authority, and are often appealed unto by Christ, and his apostles, for the truth of what they delivered; and were the standard of faith, and the test of doctrines; and therefore to be searched diligently into, for finding divine knowledge and improvement in it, and for the trial of doctrines. The words may be rendered in the indicative, as an assertion, "ye do search the Scriptures":

the Jews had the sacred oracles committed to them, and these they read, not only their kings, princes, and judges, but the common people, who brought up their children to the reading of them, and instructed them in them: and besides this, these writings were read, and expounded publicly in their synagogues every sabbath day; and at this time especially these records were examined, and particularly those of them which respected the Messiah, since there was now a general expectation of him: and certain it is, that the chief priests, Scribes, and elders, or the sanhedrim, were very much versed in the Scriptures, and could readily refer to those which concerned the Messiah; see an instance of this in Mat_2:4;
for in them ye think ye have eternal life;........... not the doctrine of eternal life, nor the promises of it, nor the way to it; though all these are contained in them, and pointed out by them: for though life and immortality are brought to light by the Gospel, and the promise of eternal life belongs to the covenant of grace, and the way of life and righteousness by Christ is manifested without the law, and not by it; yet there is much of the Gospel, and an exhibition of the covenant of grace, and its promises, and Christ, the way of life, is directed to typically by the tree of life, and the brazen serpent, and other things in those writings. But the meaning here is, that they imagined, by having these writings in their hands, and by their reading them, and hearing them expounded every sabbath day, they should obtain and inherit everlasting life: hence they call (r) the law eternal life, and say (s) concerning the reading of it, that
"he that begins to read in the book of the law is obliged to bless after this manner: blessed be he that has chosen us above all nations, and hath given us his law.--And he that finishes blesses after him in this manner: blessed is he who hath given us his law, the law of truth, and has planted "eternal life" in the midst of us.''
This was an opinion of theirs: so the Persic version reads, "for such is your opinion"; and though this was a very vain one, yet it shows what a very high opinion they had of the Scriptures: and now to these our Lord appeals as witnesses for him, and against which they could not object, upon their own principles:
and they are they which testify of me; as they do of his proper deity and divine sonship, calling him Jehovah, God, the mighty God, and the Son of God; and of his offices as prophet, priest, and King; and of his incarnation of a virgin; and of the tribe, family, and place of his birth; of the miracles which he should work; of the treatment he should meet with from men; of his sufferings and death; of the circumstances leading on to them, and attending them; as his riding on an ass into Jerusalem, the betraying him by one of his familiar acquaintance, the selling him for thirty pieces of silver, the spitting upon, and scourging him, giving him gall for his meat, and vinegar for his drink, and parting his garments, and casting lots for his vesture, and the crucifixion of him, and that between two thieves; and of his burial, resurrection from the dead, ascension to heaven, and session at the right hand of God, and of his future coming to judgment.
(r) Zohar in Gen. fol. 100. 3. (s) Maimon. in Misn. Megilla, c. 4. sect. 1.
Gill

J.