Featured 'He will also deny us' (2 Timothy 2:12)

'It is a faithful saying:
For if we be dead with Him,
we shall also live with Him:
If we suffer (or endure), we shall also reign with Him:
if we deny Him, He also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful:
He cannot deny Himself.'
(2 Timothy 2:11-13)

Hello there,

I just quoted 2 Timothy 2:12 in a thread I began today, which has the subject heading, 'A Better Resurrection'. As I did so I thought it was worth considering what this verse means, for it could be the cause of consternation unless properly understood.

* What does, 'He also will deny us' signify, within this context?

* In the first chapter of 2 Timothy, Paul has attempted to explain what is meant by 'living' and 'reigning' in resurrection life. 'Living' with Christ does not depend upon the faithfulness of the believer, but upon the one great basic fact that when Christ died on the cross, the believer was reckoned to have died with Him too. This is the testimony of the central teaching of the book of Romans, and is the basic teaching upon which the teaching of Ephesians, and the other prison epistles are built.

* It is true that even though a believer should prove to be faithless in his walk and witness, his subsequent failures cannot alter the initial fact of his death with Christ. It is very different when it comes to the matter of 'reigning' with Him, 'winning a crown', 'obtaining a prize', or 'receiving a reward'. These things are in addition to life and are connected with it as expressed in a faithful witness.

* The words, 'deny Him', in the gospels, are used interchangeably with the word meaning, 'to be ashamed of' e.g., Mark 8:38 & Matthew 10:33. This links this passage to 2 Timothy 1:- 'be not ashamed', 'I am not ashamed'. and 'He was not ashamed' - with this matter of enduring or of denying the Lord: and, furthermore, connects it to 2 Timothy 2:15, where the words, 'not ashamed' recur. So:-

As to Life:- 'If we died with Him we shall also live with Him.

If we are unfaithful, He abideth faithful, He cannot deny Himself'.​

As to Reigning:- 'If we endure, we shall also reign with Him.

If we deny (are ashamed of ) Him, He also will deny (will be ashamed of) us.'
​

* How important it is that we should abide faithful to Christ, in our walk and witness, and remain true to the gospel of God concerning His Son our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 1:16): and the fact that we are 'complete' in Him (Colossians 2:10).

' ... ... always labouring fervently for you in prayers,
that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.'
(Colossians 4:12)

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

Hi @Nancy,

Ha! Yes! I am thankful for the various means we have at our disposal to refer to on these things.

No believer would ever verbally deny the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ: but she may be ashamed of Him, in the way she lives and the things she does; by remaining silent when a witness is required to the saving work of Christ or compromising regarding the truth, or by walking according to the ways of the world instead of walking in the light of His Word, as one who has died to sin and been raised from the dead to walk in newness of life before the Father. Also, by submitting to the religious ordinances that Christ died to make obsolete. Do you agree?

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

@Nancy
@VictoryinJesus
@mjrhealth
@Candidus
@mailmandan
@quietthinker
@DPMartin

Hello there,

Coming on the forum, and seeing all your responses, I am struck by the different perspectives you have brought to this subject. I would like to respond to each one individually, and will (God Willing) but have to go out shortly, so will need apply myself to this later.

I just want to thank you for taking the time to consider this with me.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

Hello @Candidus,

Your opening sentence intrigued me, and caused me to stop and consider. I have found that there are five 'faithful' (true) sayings in Paul's epistles, which just states that what Paul has said either previously or following is true and faithful:-

'It is a faithful saying: For:-
.. if we be dead with Him, - we shall also live with Him:
.... if we suffer, - we shall also reign with Him:
...... if we deny Him, - He also will deny us:
........ if we believe not, - yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself.'
(2 Timothy 2:11-13)

'This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation,
that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;
of whom I am chief.'
(1 Timothy 1:15)

'This is a true saying,
If a man desire the office of a bishop,
he desireth a good work. ... ... ... ... '

'If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things,
.. thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ,
.... nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine,
...... whereunto thou hast attained.
But refuse profane and old wives' fables,
.. and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
.... For bodily exercise profiteth little:
...... but godliness is profitable unto all things,
........ having promise of the life that now is,
.......... and of that which is to come.
This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
.. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach,
.... because we trust in the living God,
...... Who is the Saviour of all men,
........ specially of those that believe.
These things command and teach.'
(1 Timothy 4:6-11)

'But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
.. Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
.... but according to His mercy He saved us,
...... by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
........ Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by His grace,
.. we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
This is a faithful saying,
.. and these things I will that thou affirm constantly,
.... that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.
...... These things are good and profitable unto men.'
(Titus 3:4-8)

* Regarding your reference to Polycarp and the early church father's interpretation of what is said by Paul in 2 Timothy 2:11-13, with respect, I do not think that Paul's words need any interpretation: neither do I believe that simply because they were of the early church that their interpretation need necessarily be taken to be correct, but that all must be measured by what is actually written in God's Word itself; and quite honestly, I do not believe his words measure up.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

Hello @mailmandan,

Oh boy! Am I glad that we have God's Word written, and so do not have to be reliant on the interpretations of others! Thank you for sharing these opinions, I am glad that you do not share them.

Regarding Peter's denial of the Lord, the circumstances of it cannot help but draw pity from each one of us, for there by the grace of God could go each one of us, and how do we know how we would react in such dangerous circumstances. It was also not the denial of Christ, in relation to His person as the Son or God: or of what He professed; but Peter did deny knowing Him and being with Him out of fear for his own safety. That is not denying Him out of shame: for Peter, by God's grace, had confessed previously that the Lord Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God; that was not being denied by Him now. No! His was a denial borne of the weakness of his own flesh. The spirit was willing but the flesh was weak.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

'It is a faithful saying:
For if we be dead with Him,
we shall also live with Him:
If we suffer (or endure), we shall also reign with Him:
if we deny Him, He also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful:
He cannot deny Himself.'
(2 Timothy 2:11-13)

Hello @Candidus,

What Paul said was 'Faithful' and 'True': for as the Apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God he could speak with their authority. Praise God!

In regard to what you said about God's faithfulness, Candidus, don't you agree, that we must remember that what is said through Paul, in these verses (above), is indeed said on that same authority: not to unbelievers but believers. God is faithful and will keep His promises, regarding the gift of eternal life: that will not be denied them; but what will be denied them for unfaithfulness and being ashamed of their Lord, is the reward of faithful service, which is to reign with Christ. Believers have nothing to fear from the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ: who has adopted them as Son's in and through Him. They will be chastened as sons, but never cast away.

You mention Hebrews 3:12 and Jude 21, both of which were not addressed to the church which is the body of Christ, as the epistle to 2 Timothy was: but both were written to Hebrew believers who were wavering and in danger of placing themselves back under the law, during the Acts period, when these epistles were written.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

Hello @DPMartin,

Yes, we have, by God's reckoning died with Christ, and have been risen with Christ, so that we can life in newness of life before the Father, as He now is. Having been justified by faith we have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ died upon the cross, having commended His spirit into His Father's hands (Luke 23:46). He died and was buried and remained in the grave for three days, before being quickened, and raised to life by the power of God. Believers also are reckoned to have died with Him, been buried with and quickened with Him and raised with Him to newness of life before the Father, and are waiting for Him to appear in glory, that they may appear there with Him too, as promised (Colossians 3:4) .

He who came down from Heaven did taste of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9-11), there is no doubt of that. He died, as Adam did, physically. Bearing the penalty of our sin upon Himself, that we may have life through Him.

Praise God!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

'It is a faithful saying:
For if we be dead with Him,
we shall also live with Him:
If we suffer (or endure), we shall also reign with Him:
if we deny Him, He also will deny us:
If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful:
He cannot deny Himself.'
(2 Timothy 2:11-13)

Hello @quietthinker,

I find it hard to understand how you can bring these three parables into this discussion concerning the words of 2 Timothy 2:11-13, and apply the words, 'I never knew you', to members of the Body of Christ, to whom Paul wrote that epistle. For the members of the Body of Christ have been chosen from before the foundation of the world, that they should be holy and without blame before God the Father in love. This is not something that has to, or can be, achieved by the believer, but it has been done, by the finished work of God in Christ upon the cross. The member of the Body of Christ is also adopted as a Son, by Jesus Christ, to God Himself, according to the good pleasure of the will of the Father. To the praise of the glory of His grace: and accepted in the Beloved, in Whom he has redemption through His blood, and the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of God's amazing grace.

* Are those words, 'I never knew you', therefore, going to be said to such as these? No way!!

Praise God!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris