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Featured 'He will also deny us' (2 Timothy 2:12)

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by charity, Jun 29, 2020.

  1. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    'It is a faithful saying:
    For if we be dead with Him,
    we shall also live with Him:

    If we suffer (or endure), we shall also reign with Him:
    if we deny Him, He also will deny us:
    If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful:
    He cannot deny Himself.'

    (2 Timothy 2:11-13)

    Hello there,

    I just quoted 2 Timothy 2:12 in a thread I began today, which has the subject heading, 'A Better Resurrection'. As I did so I thought it was worth considering what this verse means, for it could be the cause of consternation unless properly understood.

    * What does, 'He also will deny us' signify, within this context?

    * In the first chapter of 2 Timothy, Paul has attempted to explain what is meant by 'living' and 'reigning' in resurrection life. 'Living' with Christ does not depend upon the faithfulness of the believer, but upon the one great basic fact that when Christ died on the cross, the believer was reckoned to have died with Him too. This is the testimony of the central teaching of the book of Romans, and is the basic teaching upon which the teaching of Ephesians, and the other prison epistles are built.

    * It is true that even though a believer should prove to be faithless in his walk and witness, his subsequent failures cannot alter the initial fact of his death with Christ. It is very different when it comes to the matter of 'reigning' with Him, 'winning a crown', 'obtaining a prize', or 'receiving a reward'. These things are in addition to life and are connected with it as expressed in a faithful witness.

    * The words, 'deny Him', in the gospels, are used interchangeably with the word meaning, 'to be ashamed of' e.g., Mark 8:38 & Matthew 10:33. This links this passage to 2 Timothy 1:- 'be not ashamed', 'I am not ashamed'. and 'He was not ashamed' - with this matter of enduring or of denying the Lord: and, furthermore, connects it to 2 Timothy 2:15, where the words, 'not ashamed' recur. So:-

    As to Life:- 'If we died with Him we shall also live with Him.
    If we are unfaithful, He abideth faithful, He cannot deny Himself'.

    As to Reigning:- 'If we endure, we shall also reign with Him.
    If we deny (are ashamed of ) Him, He also will deny (will be ashamed of) us.'
    * How important it is that we should abide faithful to Christ, in our walk and witness, and remain true to the gospel of God concerning His Son our Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 1:16): and the fact that we are 'complete' in Him (Colossians 2:10).

    ' ... ... always labouring fervently for you in prayers,
    that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.'

    (Colossians 4:12)

    Thank you.
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
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  2. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, this is interesting. My own take on that scripture was always that those who initially deny/are ashamed of Christ were those who outright rejected Him. Of course, Peter denied Him 3 times but then again, that was before the Holy Spirit was given to him.
    There is also the thought that denying Him could be connected to not obeying Him?
    I would think that any sin would be in a way, denying Him and His power... to NOT sin?
    You are much better than I Chris, with all the Greek/Hebrew meanings...I do look upp on the Lex. now and then but...mostly "Greek to me" :D
     
  3. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hi @Nancy,

    Ha! :) Yes! I am thankful for the various means we have at our disposal to refer to on these things.

    No believer would ever verbally deny the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ: but she may be ashamed of Him, in the way she lives and the things she does; by remaining silent when a witness is required to the saving work of Christ or compromising regarding the truth, or by walking according to the ways of the world instead of walking in the light of His Word, as one who has died to sin and been raised from the dead to walk in newness of life before the Father. Also, by submitting to the religious ordinances that Christ died to make obsolete. Do you agree?

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  4. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Peter denied Him. Three times.
    Luke 22:31-32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: [32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. (Philippians 1:6)

    Thought a lot about when Christ prayed for Peter ‘that your faith fail not’ ...in your post the word ‘endures’; The only way ‘that thy faith fails not’ is by ‘and when you are converted (turn, return again)...feed My sheep (strengthen your brothers).

    Hebrews 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

    2 Corinthians 6:9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
     
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  5. DPMartin

    DPMartin Well-Known Member

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    again, if one is born of the Holy Spirit then that which is born is of God is justified to be with God or where God is. everything else isn't, in the case of mankind. hence receiving the Life of Christ is the key. Jesus died physically on the cross to go where we go. its not about His death though there are required fulfillments in it, its about His everlasting Life. one doesn't receive His death, one needs to receive His Life via being born again, while your still alive in the flesh.

    the flesh Jesus walked in (the temple He said He would destroy and raised in three days) died. not He who came from Heaven.
     
  6. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree as, I myself have been the very same situation in the past. So happy to be proud of Him and free!
     
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  7. Candidus

    Candidus Well-Known Member

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    The questions arises, in which way does God remain faithful? God is unchanging, and will hold faithfully to His promises. He will also hold faithful to His warnings. In all the Scripture he promises to punish the unbelieving, in this He cannot deny Himself. He cannot lie to Himself or go against His nature. God always remains faithful, and He will always punish the faithless. God does not leave or forsake us, but we can leave and forsake Him. God does not take salvation away from us, but we can reject it and throw it away through unbelief. "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." Heb. 3:12.
    "Keep yourselves in the love of God." Jude 21.
     
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  8. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    The five foolish virgins were told 'I don't know you'......cast out in other words.....although in their own estimation they thought they did know him evident by the reasons they gave him that the door should be opened for them.

    The next parable in the same chapter (Matt. 25) is that of the talents.....same verdict, different way of illustrating it.

    The parable following that is of the division of the sheep from the goats.....again illustrating the same principle.

    That's three parables in a row illustrating the same fundamental thing......your'e either faithful in the final analysis or your'e not......no half measures, no second chances.

    When a matter is repeated three times its a flag 'take notice'.....don't be indifferent......watch, deception is all around.......be sharp!
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020 at 5:09 PM
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  9. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply Q.T.
    The 3 time warning in the Word is something I've heard before...this helps me to put it together. No, God never does things half way. Means what He says and says what He means. I hope we all here have clean garments when the time comes! :eek:
     
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  10. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Than there was this man,
    [MKJV] Matthew 22:11
    And the king coming in to look over the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment.
    12 And he said to him, Friend, how did you come in here without having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
    13 Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
    14 For many are called, but few chosen.

    [MKJV] Luke 7:31
    And the Lord said, To what then shall I compare the men of this generation? And to what are they like?
    32 They are like children sitting in a market and calling to one another, and saying, We have played the flute to you, and you have not danced; we have mourned to you, and you did not weep.
    33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, He has a demon.
    34 The Son of man has come eating and drinking, and you say, Behold a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners!
    35 But wisdom has been justified by all her children.
     
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  11. mailmandan

    mailmandan Well-Known Member

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    I've heard people interpret this passage as drawing a contrast between believers (2 Timothy 2:11-12a) and unbelievers (2 Timothy 2:12b). I've also heard others argue that even if we deny Him and stop believing, we will still be saved, yet others argue for a loss of salvation here. Regardless, I see suffering, enduring and confessing Christ (as opposed to denying Him) as the fruit of salvation. Now in regards to the apostle Peter, there was a single instance of denial and Peter actually denied Jesus three times, but this was not referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ will ultimately be denied by Christ before the Father.
     
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  12. Candidus

    Candidus Well-Known Member

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    The argument that one verse is speaking to believers, and the other is speaking to unbelievers, is not exegetically derived by this passage in my opinion. "If we" is the same audience in both places. To arbitrarily change the audience and who "we" is in this passage to be believers in one passage, and unbelievers in the other passage, is eisegesis. To say that because of some belief or doctrine you hold elsewhere creates a dilemma, and that you "must" read it in a way that rescues that doctrine, is circular reasoning at best, and a denial of Scripture at its worst. To make these apply to different people, is no not "theology," but philosophy.

    I agree with the rest of your post, but might describe it this way... It is not the stumbling and falling that is ultimately fatal, but the continuance in that failure that seals the deal. As with Peter, he fell, yet he got back up, brushed himself off, and repented and trusted Christ and was restored to His favor.

    Many times at funerals, or after somebody dies, someone asks you the question... "Do you think that _____ is in heaven, or hell?" The best answer I have found if people ask about someone I do not really know the fate of is, "I do not know, I cannot say, but one thing I do know is, he/she is in the hands of a Just God."

    Does the thought of dying and facing a "Just God" give you pause?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020 at 7:57 AM
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  13. Candidus

    Candidus Well-Known Member

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    "It is a faithful saying" made me wonder... is there any evidence of this? What I mean is, was Paul saying that was a circulating Creed already in existence?

    Looking at the Greek, I am not sure if this is the way to go. It can mean "Faithful is the word (or 'saying') which could mean that Paul was giving them a sort of Creed that they could bank on.

    I do not have any evidence that this was in circulation before Paul wrote it. Note Paul's use of the "If we" and "we shall" connections in 2 Timothy 2:11-13.

    The Early Church touches on 2 Timothy 2:12 in the writings of Polycarp to the Philippians. (5:2). "Knowing, therefore, that "God is not mocked," we ought to live in a manner that is worthy of his commandment and glory. (2) Similarly, deacons must be blameless in the presence of his righteousness, and deacons of God and Christ and not of men: not slanderers, not insincere, not lovers of money, self-controlled in every respect, compassionate, diligent, acting in accordance with the truth of the Lord, who became a "servant of all." If we please him in this present world, we will receive the world to come as well, inasmuch as he promised to raise us from the dead and that if we prove to be citizens worthy of him, "we shall also reign with him"- if, that is, we continue to believe."

    This appears to be a summation of Paul's words in 2 Timothy 2:11-13, and gives us a definite view of how Polycarp and the Early Church applied it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020 at 8:47 AM
  14. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    They cast Him out too. Calling Him a drunk. “Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. [23] Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets. [24] But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. [25] Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep. [26] Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets. [27] But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, [28] Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.” Luke 6:22-28

    Mark 4:16-17 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; [17] And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

    “So endure but for a time” “If you endure” comes in not the above which are immediately offended and by other verses they fall away or deny or go away ...then there is the one ground which endures ‘hopes all things, believes all things, bears all things, and endures all things) and springs forth and bears fruit.
    Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. [23] Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great...clothed with a New Man.

    So yeah we love to see what is cast out, until we see what is cast out might be us. Who can straighten what is made crooked?
     
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  15. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    @Nancy
    @VictoryinJesus
    @mjrhealth
    @Candidus
    @mailmandan
    @quietthinker
    @DPMartin

    Hello there,

    Coming on the forum, and seeing all your responses, I am struck by the different perspectives you have brought to this subject. I would like to respond to each one individually, and will (God Willing) but have to go out shortly, so will need apply myself to this later.

    I just want to thank you for taking the time to consider this with me. :)

    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  16. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @Candidus,

    Your opening sentence intrigued me, and caused me to stop and consider. I have found that there are five 'faithful' (true) sayings in Paul's epistles, which just states that what Paul has said either previously or following is true and faithful:-

    'It is a faithful saying: For:-
    .. if we be dead with Him, - we shall also live with Him:

    .... if we suffer, - we shall also reign with Him:
    ...... if we deny Him, - He also will deny us:
    ........ if we believe not, - yet He abideth faithful: He cannot deny Himself.'
    (2 Timothy 2:11-13)

    'This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation,
    that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners;
    of whom I am chief.'

    (1 Timothy 1:15)

    'This is a true saying,
    If a man desire the office of a bishop,
    he desireth a good work. ... ... ... ... '


    'If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things,
    .. thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ,
    .... nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine,
    ...... whereunto thou hast attained.
    But refuse profane and old wives' fables,
    .. and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.
    .... For bodily exercise profiteth little:
    ...... but godliness is profitable unto all things,
    ........ having promise of the life that now is,
    .......... and of that which is to come.

    This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
    .. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach,
    .... because we trust in the living God,
    ...... Who is the Saviour of all men,
    ........ specially of those that believe.
    These things command and teach.'

    (1 Timothy 4:6-11)

    'But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
    .. Not by works of righteousness which we have done,
    .... but according to His mercy He saved us,
    ...... by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    ........ Which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
    That being justified by His grace,
    .. we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    This is a faithful saying,
    .. and these things I will that thou affirm constantly,
    .... that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.
    ...... These things are good and profitable unto men.'

    (Titus 3:4-8)

    * Regarding your reference to Polycarp and the early church father's interpretation of what is said by Paul in 2 Timothy 2:11-13, with respect, I do not think that Paul's words need any interpretation: neither do I believe that simply because they were of the early church that their interpretation need necessarily be taken to be correct, but that all must be measured by what is actually written in God's Word itself; and quite honestly, I do not believe his words measure up.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020 at 10:35 AM
  17. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @mailmandan,

    Oh boy! Am I glad that we have God's Word written, and so do not have to be reliant on the interpretations of others! Thank you for sharing these opinions, I am glad that you do not share them.

    Regarding Peter's denial of the Lord, the circumstances of it cannot help but draw pity from each one of us, for there by the grace of God could go each one of us, and how do we know how we would react in such dangerous circumstances. It was also not the denial of Christ, in relation to His person as the Son or God: or of what He professed; but Peter did deny knowing Him and being with Him out of fear for his own safety. That is not denying Him out of shame: for Peter, by God's grace, had confessed previously that the Lord Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God; that was not being denied by Him now. No! His was a denial borne of the weakness of his own flesh. The spirit was willing but the flesh was weak.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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  18. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    'It is a faithful saying:
    For if we be dead with Him,
    we shall also live with Him:
    If we suffer (or endure), we shall also reign with Him:
    if we deny Him, He also will deny us:
    If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful:
    He cannot deny Himself.'

    (2 Timothy 2:11-13)

    Hello @Candidus,

    What Paul said was 'Faithful' and 'True': for as the Apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God he could speak with their authority. Praise God!

    In regard to what you said about God's faithfulness, Candidus, don't you agree, that we must remember that what is said through Paul, in these verses (above), is indeed said on that same authority: not to unbelievers but believers. God is faithful and will keep His promises, regarding the gift of eternal life: that will not be denied them; but what will be denied them for unfaithfulness and being ashamed of their Lord, is the reward of faithful service, which is to reign with Christ. Believers have nothing to fear from the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ: who has adopted them as Son's in and through Him. They will be chastened as sons, but never cast away.

    You mention Hebrews 3:12 and Jude 21, both of which were not addressed to the church which is the body of Christ, as the epistle to 2 Timothy was: but both were written to Hebrew believers who were wavering and in danger of placing themselves back under the law, during the Acts period, when these epistles were written.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris






     
  19. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    Hello @DPMartin,

    Yes, we have, by God's reckoning died with Christ, and have been risen with Christ, so that we can life in newness of life before the Father, as He now is. Having been justified by faith we have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ died upon the cross, having commended His spirit into His Father's hands (Luke 23:46). He died and was buried and remained in the grave for three days, before being quickened, and raised to life by the power of God. Believers also are reckoned to have died with Him, been buried with and quickened with Him and raised with Him to newness of life before the Father, and are waiting for Him to appear in glory, that they may appear there with Him too, as promised (Colossians 3:4) .

    He who came down from Heaven did taste of death for every man (Hebrews 2:9-11), there is no doubt of that. He died, as Adam did, physically. Bearing the penalty of our sin upon Himself, that we may have life through Him.

    Praise God!

    Thank you.
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020 at 12:00 PM
  20. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

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    'It is a faithful saying:
    For if we be dead with Him,
    we shall also live with Him:
    If we suffer (or endure), we shall also reign with Him:
    if we deny Him, He also will deny us:
    If we believe not, yet He abideth faithful:
    He cannot deny Himself.'

    (2 Timothy 2:11-13)

    Hello @quietthinker,

    I find it hard to understand how you can bring these three parables into this discussion concerning the words of 2 Timothy 2:11-13, and apply the words, 'I never knew you', to members of the Body of Christ, to whom Paul wrote that epistle. For the members of the Body of Christ have been chosen from before the foundation of the world, that they should be holy and without blame before God the Father in love. This is not something that has to, or can be, achieved by the believer, but it has been done, by the finished work of God in Christ upon the cross. The member of the Body of Christ is also adopted as a Son, by Jesus Christ, to God Himself, according to the good pleasure of the will of the Father. To the praise of the glory of His grace: and accepted in the Beloved, in Whom he has redemption through His blood, and the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of God's amazing grace.

    * Are those words, 'I never knew you', therefore, going to be said to such as these? No way!!

    Praise God!

    Thank you.
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
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