"Hell doesn't last forever"..God is merciful

[kerwin]

Typically you referred to Modern references instead of biblical references which tells us that you really don't believe what the word of God says but interpreted through the eyes of modern unbelievers. That basically means that you don't believe what the Bible says so why are we discussing it with you? Seems a waste if time in my opinion.

OzSpen asked me to refer to a Lexicon and I did.

Are you claiming the experts that made the Lexicon entry are liars?

You really should really work to avoid falsely accusing people.

I do not believe your opinion of what certain passages say because it disagrees with what other passages say.

 

[OzSpen]

OzSpen asked me to refer to a Lexicon and I did.

Are you claiming the experts that made the Lexicon entry are liars?

You really should really work to avoid falsely accusing people.

I do not believe your opinion of what certain passages say because it disagrees with what other passages say.

You did not refer to one Greek lexicon. Not one. You referred to Biblehub, which is not a Greek lexicon. Try Arndt & Gingrich or Thayer.

The problem, kerwin, is that you don't know what a Greek lexicon is, so you quote from Biblehub, thinking it is a lexicon because it gives a few words in Greek. It is NOT a lexicon. You again demonstrate that you don't read or understand the NT Greek language. Please don't try to cover this up.

Oz

 

[kerwin]

You did not refer to one Greek lexicon. Not one. You referred to Biblehub, which is not a Greek lexicon. Try Arndt & Gingrich or Thayer.

The problem, kerwin, is that you don't know what a Greek lexicon is, so you quote from Biblehub, thinking it is a lexicon because it gives a few words in Greek. It is NOT a lexicon. You again demonstrate that you don't read or understand the NT Greek language. Please don't try to cover this up.

Oz

Ad hominem fallacy alert.

The definitions come from Strong's Concordance. The question is whether the definition is correct and you avoid that issue by attacking Bible Hub. Offer at least one reliable witness that disagrees.

 

[kerwin]

Stan J,

OzSpen asked me to refer to a Lexicon and I did.

Are you claiming the experts that made the Lexicon entry are liars?

You really should really work to avoid falsely accusing people.

I do not believe your opinion of what certain passages say because it disagrees with what other passages say.

I did quote from a concordance entry and not a Lexicon and at that it was Strong's. It is the one Bible Hub uses.

Correction: Your fallacy is a ad hominem and not the less appropriate red herring. You launched an attack at the source without addressing whether the definition is true or not.

 

[kerwin]

You did not refer to one Greek lexicon. Not one. You referred to Biblehub, which is not a Greek lexicon. Try Arndt & Gingrich or Thayer.

The problem, kerwin, is that you don't know what a Greek lexicon is, so you quote from Biblehub, thinking it is a lexicon because it gives a few words in Greek. It is NOT a lexicon. You again demonstrate that you don't read or understand the NT Greek language. Please don't try to cover this up.

Oz

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words agrees with Strong's concordance.

Study Bible Vines's entry for eternal.

It claims that there is another word that means time without end. That contradicts what I have heard previously but I have been given faulty information before.

 

[OzSpen]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words agrees with Strong's concordance.

Study Bible Vines's entry for eternal.

It claims that there is another word that means time without end. That contradicts what I have heard previously but I have been given faulty information before.

Stan J,

I did quote from a concordance entry and not a Lexicon and at that it was Strong's. It is the one Bible Hub uses.

Correction: Your fallacy is a ad hominem and not the less appropriate red herring. You launched an attack at the source without addressing whether the definition is true or not.

Thank you for admitting you did not use a Greek lexicon but a concordance. The one 'Biblehub uses' is not what I asked for.

You are demonstrating you don't know what an ad hominem fallacy is. Take a read here: Ad hominem fallacy.

Let's get back to the topic. Does hell last forever? What's the Bible's teaching?

 

[OzSpen]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words agrees with Strong's concordance.

Study Bible Vines's entry for eternal.

It claims that there is another word that means time without end. That contradicts what I have heard previously but I have been given faulty information before.

Vine's is not a highly recommended expository dictionary. Try that by Kittel and Friedrich (eds), Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 10 vols and Colin Brown (ed), The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, 3 vols.

Does hell last forever?

Oz

 

[StanJ]

OzSpen asked me to refer to a Lexicon and I did.

Are you claiming the experts that made the Lexicon entry are liars?

You really should really work to avoid falsely accusing people.

I do not believe your opinion of what certain passages say because it disagrees with what other passages say.

Referred to a dictionary on Google. That doesn't quite tell us what lexicon it was now does it?

I'm saying that some lexographers are not as good as others. Plus the person using them has to know how to use them

Who did they falsely accused and for what? You should really work at answering the actual questions and not deflecting and equivocating all the time.

You have stated this a few times but you're never able to show what or where. The preponderance of evidence so far shows you don't know what you're talking about, especially when it comes to Bible understanding or what is commonly referred to as biblical hermeneutics.

 

[StanJ]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words agrees with Strong's concordance.
Study Bible Vines's entry for eternal.
It claims that there is another word that means time without end. That contradicts what I have heard previously but I have been given faulty information before.

This convincingly shows that you have no idea how to even read these lexicons when you do use them.
This is a quote from the link you provided;
"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Corinthians 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Philemon 1:15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Romans 16:26; of His power, 1 Timothy 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Hebrews 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, Hebrews 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Peter 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' John 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Corinthians 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1 Corinthians 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matthew 25:46; Titus 1:2.
And the following is from the same site, showing what Strong's Greek Lexicon defines it as;
eternal, unending
age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.
It appears that whether it be English in a Modern English translation or the explanation of the Greek in the Lexicon you fail to understand what is written. I'd have to say you have an extreme form of tunnel vision, or more accurately, extreme bias.

 

[kerwin]

This convincingly shows that you have no idea how to even read these lexicons when you do use them.
This is a quote from the link you provided;
"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Corinthians 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Philemon 1:15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Romans 16:26; of His power, 1 Timothy 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Hebrews 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, Hebrews 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Peter 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' John 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Corinthians 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1 Corinthians 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matthew 25:46; Titus 1:2.
And the following is from the same site, showing what Strong's Greek Lexicon defines it as;
eternal, unending
age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.
It appears that whether it be English in a Modern English translation or the explanation of the Greek in the Lexicon you fail to understand what is written. I'd have to say you have an extreme form of tunnel vision, or more accurately, extreme bias.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament

I admit I stopped when I obtained what I knew was there and did not read any further into his opinion.

I desired to establish the point that it did indeed have the meaning of something that was indefinite and not everlasting.


Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament

[ 2,,G166, aionios ]
"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Romans 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.



Matt Slick agrees with your opinion but never the less he writes in his article A look at the word "aionion" that:

The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.

His argument is that the context justifies interpreting it has "eternal" but I do not agree. I believe Vimes also thinks such context exists in the verses he mentioned.

The only possible context I see is in one verse the same Koine Greek word is used to refer to age-long life. The assumption is that if age-long means eternal in that context then it must mean eternal when speaking about punishment. Even if that irrelevant as it is not actually saying that it is the torment that is eternal. For example eternal destruction means destroyed for ever. I question the question of eternal life though I certainly hope that is what the word age-long means. Perhaps God has decided I do not have a need to know anything that he rewards righteousness with age-long life. I am content whatever his decision is.

 

[OzSpen]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament

I admit I stopped when I obtained what I knew was there and did not read any further into his opinion.

I desired to establish the point that it did indeed have the meaning of something that was indefinite and not everlasting.


Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament

[ 2,,G166, aionios ]
"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Romans 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.



Matt Slick agrees with your opinion but never the less he writes in his article A look at the word "aionion" that:

The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.

His argument is that the context justifies interpreting it has "eternal" but I do not agree. I believe Vimes also thinks such context exists in the verses he mentioned.

The only possible context I see is in one verse the same Koine Greek word is used to refer to age-long life. The assumption is that if age-long means eternal in that context then it must mean eternal when speaking about punishment. Even if that irrelevant as it is not actually saying that it is the torment that is eternal. For example eternal destruction means destroyed for ever. I question the question of eternal life though I certainly hope that is what the word age-long means. Perhaps God has decided I do not have a need to know anything that he rewards righteousness with age-long life. I am content whatever his decision is.

kerwin,

One would need to be a spiritual gymnast with an agenda to avoid the clarity of the nature of what will happen to unbelievers after death.

• Jesus’ language is of those who are “thrown into the eternal fire” (Matt 18:8 ESV).

• Paul’s was of whose who “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thess. 1:9 ESV).

• Jude warned of “a punishment of eternal fire” (Jude 1:7 ESV);

• of those “for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever” (Jude 1:13 ESV).

• John wrote of sinful, condemned humanity. John’s vision was that “the smoke from her goes up forever and ever” (Rev. 19:3 ESV).

As far back as 1744, Matthew Horbery wrote, “It is hard to say how any doctrine can be taught so plainly than the eternity of future punishment…. how could he have done it in plainer words or in a more emphatical manner?” (Horbery 1744:61-62).

Jesus, Paul, Jude and John all confirm the eternal, forever and ever length of the punishment of the damned.

Oz

Works consulted
Henry Horbery 1744. An Enquiry into the Scripture-Doctrine concerning the Duration of Future Punishment. London: James Fletcher, pp 61-62. Partly available as a Google book online HERE (Accessed 1 October 2016).

 

[kerwin]

kerwin,

One would need to be a spiritual gymnast with an agenda to avoid the clarity of the nature of what will happen to unbelievers after death.

• Jesus’ language is of those who are “thrown into the eternal fire” (Matt 18:8 ESV).

• Paul’s was of whose who “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thess. 1:9 ESV).

• Jude warned of “a punishment of eternal fire” (Jude 1:7 ESV);

• of those “for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever” (Jude 1:13 ESV).

• John wrote of sinful, condemned humanity. John’s vision was that “the smoke from her goes up forever and ever” (Rev. 19:3 ESV).

As far back as 1744, Matthew Horbery wrote, “It is hard to say how any doctrine can be taught so plainly than the eternity of future punishment…. how could he have done it in plainer words or in a more emphatical manner?” (Horbery 1744:61-62).

Jesus, Paul, Jude and John all confirm the eternal, forever and ever length of the punishment of the damned.

Oz

Works consulted
Henry Horbery 1744. An Enquiry into the Scripture-Doctrine concerning the Duration of Future Punishment. London: James Fletcher, pp 61-62. Partly available as a Google book online HERE (Accessed 1 October 2016).

It does not follow seems to be a common answer to the the reasoning that is used to derive such a conclusions.

For example, "eternal fire" means the fire itself is eternal and does not mention the length of the suffering of the individual thrown in there and so it does not follow that their "body and soul" are not destroyed by being thrown into the eternal fire. The context also does not reveal that age-long means "eternal" because the hearer would already have to know how long it is to get that.


For this reason the conclusion is one of the premises and therefore it is circular reasoning.

 

[StanJ]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament

I admit I stopped when I obtained what I knew was there and did not read any further into his opinion.

I desired to establish the point that it did indeed have the meaning of something that was indefinite and not everlasting.


Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament

[ 2,,G166, aionios ]
"describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Romans 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.



Matt Slick agrees with your opinion but never the less he writes in his article A look at the word "aionion" that:

The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.

His argument is that the context justifies interpreting it has "eternal" but I do not agree. I believe Vimes also thinks such context exists in the verses he mentioned.

The only possible context I see is in one verse the same Koine Greek word is used to refer to age-long life. The assumption is that if age-long means eternal in that context then it must mean eternal when speaking about punishment. Even if that irrelevant as it is not actually saying that it is the torment that is eternal. For example eternal destruction means destroyed for ever. I question the question of eternal life though I certainly hope that is what the word age-long means. Perhaps God has decided I do not have a need to know anything that he rewards righteousness with age-long life. I am content whatever his decision is.

It doesn't really matter if you agree or not the point is you're not reading it properly. It is very apparent that you have an unteachable heart and only will accept what you yourself personally deign to accept, regardless of what the Bible says in context. You don't get to decide what the connotation is for every word, that is decided by the flow and context of what is written. In particular when Jesus compares Eternal life to Eternal punishment, the eternal connotes the same thing. Destruction is not used to your only punishment is and if something is destroyed in reality it doesn't need the redundancy of eternal applied to it. Again you equivocate about the text instead of understanding but it does say. There is no room in God's word for equivocation.

 

[kerwin]

It doesn't really matter if you agree or not the point is you're not reading it properly. It is very apparent that you have an unteachable heart and only will accept what you yourself personally deign to accept, regardless of what the Bible says in context. You don't get to decide what the connotation is for every word, that is decided by the flow and context of what is written. In particular when Jesus compares Eternal life to Eternal punishment, the eternal connotes the same thing. Destruction is not used to your only punishment is and if something is destroyed in reality it doesn't need the redundancy of eternal applied to it. Again you equivocate about the text instead of understanding but it does say. There is no room in God's word for equivocation.

I did include some of his opinion in the quote as the words ""describes duration, either undefined but not endless," is the only fact in what he wrote. I am sure Vimes expository attracted your attention more as it is what your itching want to hear.

You preference for his opinion to that of the facts reveals who you put first, a human being or the truth.

Remember to test the spirit of the messages you embrace as well as those you hear for by it your life will be preserved. (1 John 4:1 and 1 Timothy 4:16)

Note: I did not think you were admitting the actual definition but I posted this before I actually figured that out. Sorry for being so slow.

 

[kerwin]

...

Destruction is not used to your only punishment is and if something is destroyed in reality it doesn't need the redundancy of eternal applied to it. Again you equivocate about the text instead of understanding but it does say. There is no room in God's word for equivocation.

That is your judgement.

I can see one reason to use it and that is to reveal it is permanent. That would be to emphasize that there were no chances of reprieve afterwards. There is most likely others.

 

[OzSpen]

That is your judgement.

I can see one reason to use it and that is to reveal it is permanent. That would be to emphasize that there were no chances of reprieve afterwards. There is most likely others.

kerwin,

Matthew 25:46 (ESV) reads, ‘And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life’.
What does this verse mean?

Dr A T Robertson is considered the eminent NT Greek scholar of the 20th century. He analysed the verse and these are his exegetical results:

Verse 46

Eternal punishment (κολασιν αιωνιον — kolasin aiōnion). The word κολασιν — kolasin comes from κολαζω — kolazō to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between μωρια — mōria (vengeance) and κολασις — kolasis But the same adjective αιωνιος — aiōnios is used with κολασιν — kolasin and ζωην — zōēn If by etymology we limit the scope of κολασιν — kolasin we may likewise have only age-long ζωην — zōēn There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval [concurrent] with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one‘s mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word αιωνιος — aiōnios (from αιων — aiōn age, αεςυμ αει — aevum αιωνες των αιωνων — aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have “ages of ages” (aiōnes tōn aiōnōn).[Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament, Matthew 24], StudyLight.org]

That gives us the Greek exegesis in as clear a meaning as the Greek text provides. Eternal life will be as long as eternal punishment, i.e. eternal or for the ‘ages of ages’.

The word for ‘punishment’ means ‘to mutilate or prune’.

Oz

 

[StanJ]

I did include some of his opinion in the quote as the words ""describes duration, either undefined but not endless," is the only fact in what he wrote. I am sure Vimes expository attracted your attention more as it is what your itching want to hear.

That's because some of his opinion has to do with context, whichobviously you have no understanding of whatsoever, and is why I pointed it out, not necessarily for your benefit but for others who may be confused with what you're on about.

You preference for his opinion to that of the facts reveals who you put first, a human being or the truth.
Remember to test the spirit of the messages you embrace as well as those you hear for by it your life will be preserved. (1 John 4:1 and 1 Timothy 4:16)
Note: I did not think you were admitting the actual definition but I posted this before I actually figured that out. Sorry for being so slow.

Actually you're the one that referred to Vine's, not me, and you're the one that misconstrued and misinterpreted what he said. If you think that only the voice in your head who you think is Jesus is communicating the truth to you then I feel very sad for you indeed. Jesus tells us very clearly just how important the written word of God is and yet you fail to hear him in his owns words. It is very obvious you quote a lot of what you don't understand just because it has a few words in it you think support your opinion and yet when you are corrected you backtrack for equivocate about what you were trying to say. Epic fail!

 

[StanJ]

That is your judgement.
I can see one reason to use it and that is to reveal it is permanent. That would be to emphasize that there were no chances of reprieve afterwards. There is most likely others.

No this is what the word of God says. I'm not the one that is eisegeting on these forums kerwin, YOU are.

 

[kerwin]

No this is what the word of God says. I'm not the one that is eisegeting on these forums kerwin, YOU are.

I believe you misspelled a word in your do sentences. Is is supposed to be "exegesis"?

 

[kerwin]

kerwin,

Matthew 25:46 (ESV) reads, ‘And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life’.
What does this verse mean?

Dr A T Robertson is considered the eminent NT Greek scholar of the 20th century. He analysed the verse and these are his exegetical results:

Verse 46

Eternal punishment (κολασιν αιωνιον — kolasin aiōnion). The word κολασιν — kolasin comes from κολαζω — kolazō to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between μωρια — mōria (vengeance) and κολασις — kolasis But the same adjective αιωνιος — aiōnios is used with κολασιν — kolasin and ζωην — zōēn If by etymology we limit the scope of κολασιν — kolasin we may likewise have only age-long ζωην — zōēn There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval [concurrent] with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one‘s mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word αιωνιος — aiōnios (from αιων — aiōn age, αεςυμ αει — aevum αιωνες των αιωνων — aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have “ages of ages” (aiōnes tōn aiōnōn).[Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament, Matthew 24], StudyLight.org]

That gives us the Greek exegesis in as clear a meaning as the Greek text provides. Eternal life will be as long as eternal punishment, i.e. eternal or for the ‘ages of ages’.

The word for ‘punishment’ means ‘to mutilate or prune’.

Oz

I do not think I have looked at "κολασιν ".