"Hell doesn't last forever"..God is merciful

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OzSpen

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kerwin said:
It does not follow seems to be a common answer to the the reasoning that is used to derive such a conclusions.

For example, "eternal fire" means the fire itself is eternal and does not mention the length of the suffering of the individual thrown in there and so it does not follow that their "body and soul" are not destroyed by being thrown into the eternal fire. The context also does not reveal that age-long means "eternal" because the hearer would already have to know how long it is to get that.


For this reason the conclusion is one of the premises and therefore it is circular reasoning.
This is a false conclusion again. It is not circular reasoning because the content of the punishment is obtained from the biblical text.

You don't want to accept this Scripture: Jude warned of “a punishment of eternal fire” (Jude 1:7 ESV). How long does the punishment last? It is as eternal as the eternal fire.

Dr Robertson's exegesis that I provided in #76 annihilates your resistance to eternal punishment.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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kerwin said:
I do not think I have looked at "κολασιν ".
Nice red herring that does not deal with the content of what Dr Robertson exegeted about eternal punishment and eternal life in Matt 25:46 (ESV).

Regarding κολασιν (kolasin) , yes you did look at it as 'punishment' in #70. Do you forget what you write?

Oz
 

kerwin

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OzSpen said:
Nice red herring that does not deal with the content of what Dr Robertson exegeted about eternal punishment and eternal life in Matt 25:46 (ESV).

Regarding κολασιν (kolasin) , yes you did look at it as 'punishment' in #70. Do you forget what you write?

Oz
I have looked at it but there is only two situations in which it is used and they both have the same ambiguous content as if those being already knew the teaching. The possible definitions included do include one that means torment I looked at it base and it does pruning trees as other things both mentioned and not by Dr. Roberson but it is also used twice in Scripture both are ambiguous the Acts 4:21 is almost certainly not speaking about torture unless perhaps being whipped or a judgement of the sort is considered so.
 

OzSpen

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kerwin said:
I have looked at it but there is only two situations in which it is used and they both have the same ambiguous content as if those being already knew the teaching. The possible definitions included do include one that means torment I looked at it base and it does pruning trees as other things both mentioned and not by Dr. Roberson but it is also used twice in Scripture both are ambiguous the Acts 4:21 is almost certainly not speaking about torture unless perhaps being whipped or a judgement of the sort is considered so.
There is NOTHING ambiguous about what happens to unbelievers after death:

  • “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thess. 1:9 ESV).
  • “for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever” (Jude 1:13 ESV).
  • “the smoke from her goes up forever and ever” (Rev. 19:3 ESV).
Your ducking and weaving does not cover up the horrific experience for the damned in the after-life. And it goes on forever and ever amen! :rolleyes:

Oz
 

kerwin

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OzSpen said:
There is NOTHING ambiguous about what happens to unbelievers after death:

  • “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thess. 1:9 ESV).
  • “for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever” (Jude 1:13 ESV).
  • “the smoke from her goes up forever and ever” (Rev. 19:3 ESV).
Your ducking and weaving does not cover up the horrific experience for the damned in the after-life. And it goes on forever and ever amen! :rolleyes:

Oz
You are prejudging. You would be wise to learn to empty your mind and consider all possible definitions of a word and then see if other words eliminate that possible choice in all its possible definitions.

The context in that verse is terrible for your point as none of them is literally speaking of torment. I can come up with a better evidence to support your point though I can also reveal the evidence is not a smoking gun.

I have use the The Synthesis Principle of exegeses and you have not even tried to resolve the break from how tormented forever means the same as destroyed forever. StanJ at least tried though his hypothesis failed to pass the test of Jesus words that God can destroy both the body and soul by throwing it into Gehenna. (Matthew 10:28)

In short you cannot legitimately interpret a passage in such a way as it disagrees with another passage as all passages of Scripture are in harmony.
 

OzSpen

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kerwin said:
You are prejudging.
kerwin,

I'm prejudging by quoting the Scriptures about what happens at death for all unbelievers, not a single pagan exempted:

  • “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thess. 1:9 ESV).
  • “for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever” (Jude 1:13 ESV).
  • “the smoke from her goes up forever and ever” (Rev. 19:3 ESV).

You would be wise to learn to empty your mind
What a joke! :wub:
I have use the The Synthesis Principle of exegeses and you have not even tried to resolve the break from how tormented forever means the same as destroyed forever.
Take a read of how I understand the nature of hell in my articles:
I've done a lot of exegesis and research on the nature of what happens for unbelievers at death. It doesn't agree with many of your conclusions.

Oz
 

StanJ

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kerwin said:
In short you cannot legitimately interpret a passage in such a way as it disagrees with another passage as all passages of Scripture are in harmony.
That is absolutely right, so why do YOU do it all the time?
 

kerwin

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OzSpen said:
kerwin,

I'm prejudging by quoting the Scriptures about what happens at death for all unbelievers, not a single pagan exempted:

  • “will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” (2 Thess. 1:9 ESV).
  • “for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever” (Jude 1:13 ESV).
  • “the smoke from her goes up forever and ever” (Rev. 19:3 ESV).


What a joke! :wub:

Take a read of how I understand the nature of hell in my articles:
I've done a lot of exegesis and research on the nature of what happens for unbelievers at death. It doesn't agree with many of your conclusions.

Oz
No, your interpretation is based on prejudgment.

Jude 1:12-13 is stating the planets have the gloom of darkness reserved for them ages for ages and then compares it to the corrupted among those within the church. It could hint that the corrupted also have darkness reserved for them ages and ages but that does not match up with being in torment forever. Note that it could match up with being destroyed forever though I would not use it as a proof text for that purpose.

Matthew 18:8 teaches us the fire is age-long and the anything else is based on unwritten context which is an equivalent truth to every other passage you cited except Jude 1:13 as that text is even another degree remove from direct evidence.

It is like Scripture is dancing around saying anything directly to the point on the issue.

I think this is the original source pass the later writers are using and it specified dead bodies as opposed to bodies containing a soul. According to it the corpse worm does not die. Some assume it is the symbolically the soul though it is literally the maggots that infest a corpse.

Isaiah 66:24Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
 

OzSpen

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kerwin said:
No, your interpretation is based on prejudgment.

Jude 1:12-13 is stating the planets have the gloom of darkness reserved for them ages for ages and then compares it to the corrupted among those within the church. It could hint that the corrupted also have darkness reserved for them ages and ages but that does not match up with being in torment forever. Note that it could match up with being destroyed forever though I would not use it as a proof text for that purpose.

Matthew 18:8 teaches us the fire is age-long and the anything else is based on unwritten context which is an equivalent truth to every other passage you cited except Jude 1:13 as that text is even another degree remove from direct evidence.

It is like Scripture is dancing around saying anything directly to the point on the issue.

I think this is the original source pass the later writers are using and it specified dead bodies as opposed to bodies containing a soul. According to it the corpse worm does not die. Some assume it is the symbolically the soul though it is literally the maggots that infest a corpse.

Isaiah 66:24Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
My interpretation is based on exegesis of the Greek text. You don't like that so you give this idiosyncratic imposition on Jude 12-13 that you give here. I care more about what the text says than imposing your eisegesis.
 

junobet

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OzSpen said:
My interpretation is based on exegesis of the Greek text. You don't like that so you give this idiosyncratic imposition on Jude 12-13 that you give here. I care more about what the text says than imposing your eisegesis.
Rather than accusing each other of eisegesis, in all fairness one ought to concede that the term the text uses is ambiguous: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
 

kerwin

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OzSpen said:
My interpretation is based on exegesis of the Greek text. You don't like that so you give this idiosyncratic imposition on Jude 12-13 that you give here. I care more about what the text says than imposing your eisegesis.
If you read Jude 1:12-13 you will see it is a comparison and the claim you support is that the wicked will suffer in hell-fire forever not that they will be in the gloom of utter darkness.

Darkness is associated with death and not with the fires of Gehenna.

The word is age-long and not eternal though sometimes it means "time without end".

There is a literal principle with exegesis and that is what I am using to point out you flaw in interpretation these verses. By using the synthesis principle of exegesis I can find that the word "age-long" theoretically does mean when the topic is fire because Isaiah literally states "neither shall their fire be quenched". in the verse cited to you. Still it is speaking of the fires and not the "living soul".

Jesus teaches us that God can destroy both the soul and body in Gehenna and Isaiah teaches us that the carcasses of the wicked will be in the fire and that their maggot will never die.
 

OzSpen

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junobet said:
Rather than accusing each other of eisegesis, in all fairness one ought to concede that the term the text uses is ambiguous: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Aion_lim.html
juno,

That's an unhelpful link as I didn't find it taking me to an explanation of the ambiguity of aiwnios.

Leading NT Greek grammarian of the 20th century, Dr A T Robertson, was able to translate aiwnios without ambiguity:

The word αιωνιος — aiōnios (from αιων — aiōn age, αεςυμ αει — aevum αιωνες των αιωνων — aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have “ages of ages” (aiōnes tōn aiōnōn). (Word Pictures in the New Testament, Matt 25:46, StudyLight.org).
So hell is as eternal as heaven is eternal. No ambiguity there! Same length of time for both.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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kerwin said:
If you read Jude 1:12-13 you will see it is a comparison and the claim you support is that the wicked will suffer in hell-fire forever not that they will be in the gloom of utter darkness.

Darkness is associated with death and not with the fires of Gehenna.

The word is age-long and not eternal though sometimes it means "time without end".

There is a literal principle with exegesis and that is what I am using to point out you flaw in interpretation these verses. By using the synthesis principle of exegesis I can find that the word "age-long" theoretically does mean when the topic is fire because Isaiah literally states "neither shall their fire be quenched". in the verse cited to you. Still it is speaking of the fires and not the "living soul".

Jesus teaches us that God can destroy both the soul and body in Gehenna and Isaiah teaches us that the carcasses of the wicked will be in the fire and that their maggot will never die.
kerwin,

Whatever you want aiwnios to mean, this we know from Matt 25:46 (ESV) that the length of time in hell is the same as the length of time in heaven.

I consider that hell/Hades/Gehenna are real and this will be a conscious, frightful place. But I can’t conclude about its exact nature for these reasons:
I accept that the biblical writers used metaphorical and not literal language. My main reasons for such a view are:

  • Hell/Hades could not be represented as literal fire because it is also described as a place of darkness (see Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; 2 Peter 2:17; Jude 1:13). Fire and darkness are mutually exclusive terms so hell’s description cannot be literal.
  • Let’s use Jude as an example. He described the after-life as ‘eternal fire’ (Jude 1:7) but that is contrasted with ‘utter darkness’ (Jude 1:13). For the angels, Jude writes of ‘gloomy darkness’ (Jude 1:6). Again, literal fire and literal darkness would be contradictory – from my human perspective.
  • This issue is made knotty by the ‘lake of fire’ (Rev 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8. This hardly conforms with the ‘blackest darkness’.
  • Also Matt 25:41 describes hell as a place for the devil and his angels. They are spirit beings. How is it possible for fire to work on non-physical beings?
Therefore, I accept a metaphorical understanding of hell/Hades/Gehenna. It does involve conscious suffering/torment (cf Luke 16:23-24) , but its nature is unknown to me because of the language used.

Evidence from outside the NT also supports this perspective. See fire and darkness appearing together in Jewish writings such as Qumran (1QS 2:8; 4:13), 1 Enoch 103:7; 2 Enoch 10:2-3; Jerusalem Talmud, Shekalim 6:1, 49d. These writings also speak of the bodies of the wicked that are rotting with worms and maggots (Judith 16:17; Sirach (Ben Sira) 7:17, cf Isa 66:24). It was ‘hot as fire and cold as ice’ replacing eternal torment in 2 Enoch 14:20(12).

As for Jude 1:12-13 (ESV), Greek NT grammarian, Dr A T Robertson provided this exegesis:
Verse 12
Hidden rocks (σπιλαδες — spilades). Old word for rocks in the sea (covered by the water), as in Homer, here only in N.T. 2 Peter 2:13 has σπιλοι — spiloi (αγαπαις — agapais). Undoubtedly the correct text here, though A C have απαταις — apatais as in 2 Peter 2:14. For disorder at the Lord‘s Supper (and love-feasts?) see 1 Cor 11:17-34. The Gnostics made it worse, so that the love-feasts were discontinued.
When they feast with you (συνευωχουμενοι — suneuōchoumenoi). See 2 Peter 2:13 for this very word and form. Masculine gender with ουτοι οι — houtoi hoi rather than with the feminine σπιλαδες — spilades Cf. Revelation 11:4. Construction according to sense. Shepherds that feed themselves (εαυτους ποιμαινοντες — heautous poimainontes). “Shepherding themselves.” Cf. Revelation 7:17 for this use of ποιμαινω — poimainō Clouds without water (νεπελαι ανυδροι — nephelai anudroi). Νεπελη — Nephelē common word for cloud (Matthew 24:30). 2 Peter 2:17 has πηγαι ανυδροι — pēgai anudroi (springs without water) and then ομιχλαι — homichlai (mists) and ελαυνομεναι — elaunomenai (driven) rather than περιπερομεναι — peripheromenai here (borne around, whirled around, present passive participle of περιπερω — peripherō to bear around), a powerful picture of disappointed hopes. Autumn trees (δενδρα πτινοπωρινα — dendra phthinopōrina). Late adjective (Aristotle, Polybius, Strabo) from πτινω — phthinō to waste away, and οπωρα — opōra autumn, here only in N.T. For ακαρπα — akarpa (without fruit) see 2 Peter 1:8. Twice dead (δις αποτανοντα — dis apothanonta). Second aorist active participle of αποτνησκω — apothnēskō Fruitless and having died. Having died and also “uprooted” (εκριζωτεντα — ekrizōthenta). First aorist passive participle of εκριζοω — ekrizoō late compound, to root out, to pluck up by the roots, as in Matthew 13:29.
Verse 13
Wild waves (κυματα αγρια — kumata agria). Waves (Matthew 8:24, from κυεω — kueō to swell) wild (from αγρος — agros field, wild honey Matthew 3:4) like untamed animals of the forest or the sea.
Foaming out (επαπριζοντα — epaphrizonta). Late and rare present active participle of επαπριζω — epaphrizō used in Moschus for the foaming waves as here. Cf. Isaiah 57:20. Shame (αισχυνας — aischunas). Plural “shames” (disgraces). Cf. Philemon 3:19. Wandering stars (αστερες πλανηται — asteres planētai). “Stars wanderers.” Πλανητης — Planētēs old word (from πλαναω — planaō), here alone in N.T. Some refer this to comets or shooting stars. See Isaiah 14:12 for an allusion to Babylon as the day-star who fell through pride. For ever (εις αιωνα — eis aiōna). The rest of the relative clause exactly as in 2 Peter 2:17 (courtesy StudyLight.org)
Oz
 

kerwin

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OzSpen said:
kerwin,

Whatever you want aiwnios to mean, this we know from Matt 25:46 (ESV) that the length of time in hell is the same as the length of time in heaven.

..
As a rule, most human words are ambiguous and it is a good thing. Context is what gives them a more concrete meaning but some of it is unwritten. Believers have the Spirit to teach them if they do not rebel.

Now to go on addressing this point of yours we only know that the length of the time the final penalty is in effect in the same in a general manner because of the use of an ambiguous term. It does seem reason since the topic of one part is "punishment" that there is no reprieve for the final punishment passed down from God. That is a weak case of deductive reasoning that is made stronger when synthesized with the words of Isaiah I previously cited.
 

kerwin

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OzSpen said:
kerwin,
....

I consider that hell/Hades/Gehenna are real and this will be a conscious, frightful place. But I can’t conclude about its exact nature for these reasons:
I accept that the biblical writers used metaphorical and not literal language. My main reasons for such a view are:

  • Hell/Hades could not be represented as literal fire because it is also described as a place of darkness (see Matt 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; 2 Peter 2:17; Jude 1:13). Fire and darkness are mutually exclusive terms so hell’s description cannot be literal.
  • Let’s use Jude as an example. He described the after-life as ‘eternal fire’ (Jude 1:7) but that is contrasted with ‘utter darkness’ (Jude 1:13). For the angels, Jude writes of ‘gloomy darkness’ (Jude 1:6). Again, literal fire and literal darkness would be contradictory – from my human perspective.
  • This issue is made knotty by the ‘lake of fire’ (Rev 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8. This hardly conforms with the ‘blackest darkness’.
  • Also Matt 25:41 describes hell as a place for the devil and his angels. They are spirit beings. How is it possible for fire to work on non-physical beings?
Therefore, I accept a metaphorical understanding of hell/Hades/Gehenna. It does involve conscious suffering/torment (cf Luke 16:23-24) , but its nature is unknown to me because of the language used.

Evidence from outside the NT also supports this perspective. See fire and darkness appearing together in Jewish writings such as Qumran (1QS 2:8; 4:13), 1 Enoch 103:7; 2 Enoch 10:2-3; Jerusalem Talmud, Shekalim 6:1, 49d. These writings also speak of the bodies of the wicked that are rotting with worms and maggots (Judith 16:17; Sirach (Ben Sira) 7:17, cf Isa 66:24). It was ‘hot as fire and cold as ice’ replacing eternal torment in 2 Enoch 14:20(12).

As for Jude 1:12-13 (ESV), Greek NT grammarian, Dr A T Robertson provided this exegesis:

Oz
There are different places called Hell in the AV of KJV and perhaps translations. This is probably due to bias on the part of the translators.

The one translated from Sheol/Hades is where the Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus takes place and the wicked part is describes as a place of torment while the place of the righteous is said to be a paradise. It is a standard Jewish teaching Jewish teaching of that time and the Paradise therein is call Abraham's Bosom. It along with Death, Hypothetically a pseudonym for first century Jewish tenet about Abaddon, are thrown into Gehenna; which is the Lake of Fire. The third place is Tartarus; which may be yet another pseudonym for Abaddon.

Considering that you seem to be mixing up the description of different places.
 

StanJ

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kerwin said:
You are prejudging. You would be wise to learn to empty your mind and consider all possible definitions of a word and then see if other words eliminate that possible choice in all its possible definitions.

The context in that verse is terrible for your point as none of them is literally speaking of torment. I can come up with a better evidence to support your point though I can also reveal the evidence is not a smoking gun.

I have use the The Synthesis Principle of exegeses and you have not even tried to resolve the break from how tormented forever means the same as destroyed forever. StanJ at least tried though his hypothesis failed to pass the test of Jesus words that God can destroy both the body and soul by throwing it into Gehenna. (Matthew 10:28)

In short you cannot legitimately interpret a passage in such a way as it disagrees with another passage as all passages of Scripture are in harmony.
I did indeed address this issue in Matthew 10:28 but you refused to accept it so the failure is not mine in addressing it, the failure is yours in not understanding it.
God can also move a mountain, but did he ever?
 

StanJ

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kerwin said:
No, your interpretation is based on prejudgment.

Jude 1:12-13 is stating the planets have the gloom of darkness reserved for them ages for ages and then compares it to the corrupted among those within the church. It could hint that the corrupted also have darkness reserved for them ages and ages but that does not match up with being in torment forever. Note that it could match up with being destroyed forever though I would not use it as a proof text for that purpose.

Matthew 18:8 teaches us the fire is age-long and the anything else is based on unwritten context which is an equivalent truth to every other passage you cited except Jude 1:13 as that text is even another degree remove from direct evidence.
It is like Scripture is dancing around saying anything directly to the point on the issue
I think this is the original source pass the later writers are using and it specified dead bodies as opposed to bodies containing a soul. According to it the corpse worm does not die. Some assume it is the symbolically the soul though it is literally the maggots that infest a corpse.


Isaiah 66:24Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Jude 1:12-13 says; These men are dangerous reefs at your love feasts, feasting without reverence, feeding only themselves. They are waterless clouds, carried along by the winds; autumn trees without fruit—twice dead, uprooted; wild sea waves, spewing out the foam of their shame; wayward stars for whom the utter depths of eternal darkness have been reserved.
Where God does not exist there is no light. John 1:9-11 made this clear when Jesus came into the world that he was the light and yet he was not recognized or accepted as such. Lack of light does not mean Oblivion or Destruction, it means lack of light. Many people live today with no light in their lives and if they don't accept the light they will be consigned to total darkness, which is not destruction but just darkness.
Isaiah. 26:4 says; Trust in the Lord forever, for the Lord, the Lord himself, is the Rock eternal.
The only person dancing around this issue is you, it is definitely not the scripture.
 
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