Hell . . . The Bad News.

[Triumph1300]

I just believed it because they said so. Then I knew I had to check it for myself. I had to be persuaded for myself...so I did.

Correct.
And I don't believe what anybody tells me, I read my Bible.
There are way to many Christian who don't read their Bibles.
But I disagree about your believes about no hell and no rapture.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

What about the return of Christ?
What about the resurrection?

 

[bbyrd009]

But I disagree about your believes about no hell and no rapture.

ya, "i don't get to judge others" and "no literal miracles will the world see" are hard to accept, i guess, after the opposite has been accepted; they are just so appealing, huh?

you might contemplate all of the other Scripture these violate, or even trace where hell originated, as it def was not in Hades mythology. i don't wanna lead here, but it takes about ten minutes to find now, with the www

Ezekiel speaks of "pillows" and "soft landings," what do you think these are?

 

[bbyrd009]

What about the return of Christ?

I will never leave you, nor forsake you. I'll be there, even to the end of the Age

What about the resurrection?

no one knows where they go when they die
we do not yet know what we will become

 

[brakelite]

For all eternity, condemned
man-haters will grind their teeth with hot tears and white-knuckled fury that
they ultimately lost out on everything because of one lone male's obsessive
control over their lives.

Wow...this would put Dante's descriptive literary prose to shame. Next perhaps you could describe God's great enduring and infinite pleasure in this suffering considering He must be miraculously prolonging their lives so they could continue crying these hot tears and blaspheming Him amidst their feminist tirades?

 

[brakelite]

Correct.
And I don't believe what anybody tells me, I read my Bible.
There are way to many Christian who don't read their Bibles.
But I disagree about your believes about no hell and no rapture.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

What about the return of Christ?
What about the resurrection?

We aren't saying that there is no punishment for the wicked...nor do we believe that there is no fire. Fire's prime natural attribute is that it destroys. If human beings continue to survive this fire and suffer forever, you will have to prove either one of two things.
1. God is deliberately keeping them alive. Which means they cannot really be separated from Him, seeing He is the only source of life. Yet they are sinners, and would still be sinning, yet scripture informs us that sin separates sinners from God. How to explain this contradiction? Consider also the contradiction to this eternally enduring torment to the character of Jesus, Who came to reveal to the world His Father's nature.
2. Or you would have to prove that man is naturally immortal, and thus cannot die. Or that God gives eternal life as a reward to the righteous, and as a punishment for the wicked. But that would create another contradiction. The Bible says the reward for the wicked is death. How can death equate to eternal life?

As for the second coming. Yes, in my lifetime. Perhaps.
The rapture. Depends on what you mean by rapture.
Left Behind?

 

[Triumph1300]

Sorry bbyrd, but I cannot follow you at all.
I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[amadeus]

Hey, Brakelite, is this what you believe: Eternal heaven for the believers and the unbelievers will be dead, just gone? (= no hell)
I suppose you don't believe in the rapture either?

Likewise! That is I also believe never dying for believers and simply continuing death for unbelievers. No rapture either.
All of us were born dead... but some have not remained dead.

 

[Triumph1300]

So, you folks think, for instance, that Billy Graham was a false teacher.



Quote:


The Rev. Billy Graham often responded to questions about hell in his "My Answer" column over the years. “Is hell just an idea someone dreamed up or is it real?” asked one reader. “The Bible's answer is clear,” responded Graham: “Hell is real just as real as heaven.”



“It might surprise you to learn that the person in the Bible who spoke the most about hell's reality was Jesus,” writes Graham. “He repeatedly warned us not to take it lightly: ‘Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell’ (Matthew 10:28).


??

 

[Webers_Home]

-

feminist tirades?

Misandry and feminism aren't joined at the hip; viz: not all feminists hate
men. Feminism is typically objective and political while misandry is typically
emotional and personal.

/

 

[brakelite]

-


Misandry and feminism aren't joined at the hip; viz: not all feminists hate
men. Feminism is typically objective and political while misandry is typically
emotional and personal.

/

True, not all feminists hate men, but I would opine that all men-haters are feminists, thus the common feminist tirades from those damned for their hatred.

 

[brakelite]

Likewise! That is I also believe never dying for believers and simply continuing death for unbelievers. No rapture either.
All of us were born dead... but some have not remained dead.

I might clarify that the second death for the wicked must come about as a result of a resurrection. As Jesus said, there is a resurrection for the damned, and one for the righteous. (John 5:29) These are 1000 years apart. (Revelation 20:4,5) The first, the resurrection of the just, comes about at the second coming. (John 11:24,25) The resurrection of the wicked comes when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven with all the saints from the previous resurrection 1000 years before, and who had been reigning with Christ those 1000 years, in heaven,*judging angels, receiving clarification on all their questions regarding why wasn't such and such with them, and why is such and such with them. By the time of the destruction of the wicked, there will be no issues...no unanswered questions...no doubts as to the sovereign justice of God in His sentence upon those raised to destruction. I would also clarify that the second death is synonymous with destruction. It is not just spiritual death...it is complete absence of life, they shall be as if they had never been. The whole universe will be entirely free of all that is vile and corrupt. Hell and death are no more. Sin is vanquished, sinners are but ashes under our feet.
Oh, yes, and no rapture. The hope of the righteous is the resurrection. As has been throughout Christendom for 1800 years. It still is for those who aren't deceived.

* During those 1000 years Satan is bound, as we read in Revelation. Spirits cannot be bound by physical chains or bonds, so the bonds must be circumstantial. How so? He will be alone, except for the other fallen angels. No-one to give him the adoration and obeisance he craved for and received from man. No one to tempt. He will spend 1000 years contemplating his impending destruction. The earth at this time will be a ruined defiled scene of destruction and shambles as a result of the 7 plagues, the earthquakes, the hail. Strewn with unburied dead carcasses of man and beast it will be a scene of complete devastation. Jeremiah 4:24-28; Jeremiah 25:12-33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground. Such is not an habitable place for man during any earthly millennial reign. Those who will be here during that time will not be wandering round to enjoy the beauties of God's creation. Nor will they be encumbered with the work of cleaning up what they were not disposed to be responsible for. God is not so unjust as to kill the wicked at the second coming, and then get the redeemed to clean up the mess. Clean up the pollution of the released toxic gases and liquids, the radioactive uranium that will be released, the garbage strewn from one end of the earth to the other, the cities ruined... No, when we are resurrected we will be safe from all evil, and all pain and suffering and heavy burdens. We may look forward to the creation of the new heavens and the new earth when we return with the new Jerusalem and after the fire of God cleanses the earth from all that corruption and pollution.

 

[Webers_Home]

-
The wrath of God is interesting. For example:

● Isa 13:9 . . Behold, the day of Christ comes-- cruel; with both wrath and
fierce anger

The Hebrew word for "wrath" in that statement is 'ebrah (eb-raw') which
indicates an outburst of passion. In other words: the wrath of God won't be
weeping big wet crocodile tears while it's slamming the dead at the Great
White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15; no, they will be terminated
with extreme prejudice; viz: their judgment will be administered with choler.
(cf. Isa 63:1-6, Rev 19:15)

Webster's defines "fierce" as a behavior exhibited by humans and animals
that inspires terror because of the wild and menacing aspect of fury in
attack. Ferocity is an aspect commonly seen among roaring, snarling lions
savagely attacking prey. There's neither sportsmanship nor sympathy in
ferocity; only sheer terror, brutality, and blood lust.

"cruel" is defined as: disposed to inflict pain or suffering; viz: devoid of
humane feelings

● Heb 10:27 . . A certain fearful expectation of . . . fiery indignation

"fiery indignation" is quite a bit more severe than ordinary indignation. It
speaks of someone who is seriously ticked off; and so angry that they're
actually red in the face.

There are people out there in pews all around the world who have been so
coddled by sappy versions of Christianity that they have no concept of the
magnitude of the lethal tsunami of rage and violence coming their way to
get them.

/

 

[amadeus]

I might clarify that the second death for the wicked must come about as a result of a resurrection. As Jesus said, there is a resurrection for the damned, and one for the righteous. (John 5:29)

That single verse [ John 5:29 ] doesn't convince me that there is any resurrection for people who have never been believers. Jesus is the Resurrection. Anyone who never believes in him has no resurrection, ever for any reason.

All of the other verses to me leave John 5:29 alone, so then I see that verse and dividing those who have believed into two groups, the ones who stayed on the Lord's side to the end and those who met the Master but then and some point looked back at that left behind or partook again of that which they had previously vomited. The following verse makes it clear to me that no further judgment is required for a person who never believed:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

Resurrection means "brought to Life". Consider why Jesus came:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

Again, I would emphasize that resurrection cannot and will not occur for some who has never accepted what Jesus brought. Unfortunately some who received it later chose to walk away from it. That is walking into the second death. The unbelievers were never alive at any time.

 

[brakelite]

That single verse [ John 5:29 ] doesn't convince me that there is any resurrection for people who have never been believers. Jesus is the Resurrection. Anyone who never believes in him has no resurrection, ever for any reason.

All of the other verses to me leave John 5:29 alone, so then I see that verse and dividing those who have believed into two groups, the ones who stayed on the Lord's side to the end and those who met the Master but then and some point looked back at that left behind or partook again of that which they had previously vomited. The following verse makes it clear to me that no further judgment is required for a person who never believed:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18

Resurrection means "brought to Life". Consider why Jesus came:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

Again, I would emphasize that resurrection cannot and will not occur for some who has never accepted what Jesus brought. Unfortunately some who received it later chose to walk away from it. That is walking into the second death. The unbelievers were never alive at any time.

“The rest of the dead [those who were not saved] did not live again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5).
“All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” (John 5:28, 29).
The second resurrection takes place at the close of the 1,000-year period. The unsaved will be raised in this resurrection. It is called the resurrection of condemnation. The living unsaved will be slain by the very presence of Christ at the second coming.
When an angel appeared at Jesus’ tomb, the entire group of Roman guards fell as dead men (Matthew 28:2, 4). When the brightness of all the angels, God the Father, and God the Son combine, the unsaved will die as if hit by lightning. The wicked already dead when Jesus returns will remain in their graves until the end of the 1,000 years.“The slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall become refuse on the ground” (Jeremiah 25:33).
“I beheld, and indeed there was no man” (Jeremiah 4:25).
The word for “bottomless pit” in the original Greek is “abussos,” or abyss. That same word is used in Genesis 1:2 in the Greek version of the Old Testament in connection with the creation of the earth, but there it is translated “deep.” “The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep.” The words “deep,” “bottomless pit,” and “abyss” here refer to the same thing—the earth in its totally dark, disorganized form before God made order of it. Jeremiah, in describing this earth during the 1,000 years, used virtually the same terms as these in Genesis 1:2: “without form, and void,” “no light,” “no man,” and “black” (Jeremiah 4:23, 25, 28). So the battered, dark earth with no people alive will be called the bottomless pit, or abyss, during the 1,000 years, just as it was in the beginning before Creation was completed. Also, Isaiah 24:22 speaks of Satan and his angels during the 1,000 years as “gathered in the pit” and “shut up in the prison.” At the end of the 1000 years when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven, it is surrounded by those resurrected wicked. Satan then does what he has always done, in one last ditch self-defense move, seeks to attack the city, but fire will suddenly come down from heaven (not up from hell, as many believe) upon the wicked and all will be turned into ashes, including the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). This fire that destroys sin and sinners is called the second death. There is no resurrection from this death. It is final. Notice that the devil will not be tending the fire, as is commonly believed. He will be in it, and it will put him out of existence. See also Revel. 20:6-10;21:8

 

[aspen]

Of all Christian doctrines, eternal torment gives me the most angst. I could say many things, and in the past I have. But the most obvious objections, and to which there is no answer outside of a severe twisting of truth, are twofold:
1. if one is separated from the only source of life, how can he live forever and not die? And to say he does die, but continues in suffering, is utterly contradictory. Those advocating that man is immortal or in some way continues in existence beyond death, or despite it, are repeating Satan's lie in the garden...ye shall not surely die.
2. Eternal torment is totally contrary to the character of God, who the Bible says is love. Because His entire nature is love, He cannot do anything...anything at all, that is not an expression of love. There is no love in eternal torment. Not for the sinner, not for those relatives of the sinner who must live forever in the knowledge that their mother/sister/daughter/son etc is suffering for as long as God lives.

The wages of sin is death. Death in scripture is everywhere given, when in conjunction with life, as an opposite. Romans 6:23 for example. John 3:16 for example. There are numerous more. You all know them. Yet in every single case, eternal torment contradicts them. Without exception.

Have you read anything from George MacDonald? He influenced CS Lewis. His story, ‘Lilith’ ponders the same questions that are troubling you. I struggle with the same ideas and I have found his writing to be thought provoking.

Here is a link to a study guide - not that you need it, but it provides a starting place.

Lilith Study Guide

His writings are available for free online.

 

[amadeus]

@brakelite

You have your understanding which as I sees it bypasses or twists the meanings of too many scriptures. I do not understand it all so I leave it your hands. I can only go with what God has shown me, one baby step at the time. The rest is for someone else. Hopefully you are moving in the right direction.

 

[brakelite]

Have you read anything from George MacDonald? He influenced CS Lewis. His story, ‘Lilith’ ponders the same questions that are troubling you. I struggle with the same ideas and I have found his writing to be thought provoking.

Here is a link to a study guide - not that you need it, but it provides a starting place.

Lilith Study Guide

His writings are available for free online.

Hi Aspen. Am reading that study guide and the following struck me as interesting, and very insightful. (By the way, I have never read Lilith, nor heard of MacDonald.)
The best response to reality is not dull complacency or greedy exploitation of it, but a frequently-refreshed sense of wonder, humility, or gratitude. Science is legitimate as far as it goes, but knowledge that comes from describing and measuring things must not supplant a real awareness of the mystery of creation, including our own selves (and others'). No process of accumulation of "scientific facts" is a fully adequate response to the universe. A healthy imagination does not replace reality with ego-flattering daydreams; rather, it refreshes our wonder in the presence of creation as it is, and our sense of its value. Imaginative literature can do this for the rightly-disposed reader. It can help us to perceive that we ourselves are within a realm of great dangers and joyous possibilities. That is perhaps the chief justification for reading fantasy or other forms of literature, including the realistic.
I observe Sabbath. An important aspect of that observance (simply a personal custom of mine and some of my friends) is to take a walk in nature and enjoy the peace and beauty of the forest or beach. We find this quite in harmony with the Sabbath commandment which tells us to remember the day as a memorial of creation, and a reminder of Who our God actually is...Creator. No other commandment directly identifies the God who gave the commandment.
I find it fascinating that in many fantasy entertainment books/movies there is a similar theme running through them, it seems not excluding Lilith. I first noticed this in the 1970s with the Star Wars series, (amazingly still running). Among many others, Tolkein's books made movie The Hobbit/Lord of the Rings continues this trend. That a huge variety of slightly discordant stories all sharing the same theme (the grand over-arching controversy between Christ/Satan good/evil should not surprise anyone, since we are aware, and I'm not necessarily throwing MacDonald or Tolkein in among the lions here, that Satan has a tight control over the entertainment industry. I also find it fascinating that several centuries ago anything to do with what passed for entertainment or education came under the control or purview of two seemingly disparate peoples...the Jesuits and Jews.
Those slightly discordant perspectives seem at first glance to be reflective of Lilith herself and the Biblical personification of the confusion that dominates modern Christianity found in the whore, Babylon the Great. That Lilith appears as different beings in the novel adds to this confusion.

 

[brakelite]

Aspen; from the same study....The question is: are children, in fact, neglected or exploited by attitudes, assumptions, habits, practices of our society that seem to most of us to be normal or unquestioned?
One of the most egregious habits of modern society is to leave children to the mercy of our entertainment industry. (Which in reality has no mercy). We are leaving our children in the hands of Satan, who loves being hired as our chief baby-sitter.

 

[aspen]

MacDonald has an interesting pov of the devil. He avoids the trap of dualism. You’ve brought up some interesting points. I agree with you regarding the entertainment industry as nanny.

 

[brakelite]

Calling 'dualism' as a trap coming from a Catholic (at least I think you are Catholic, sorry if I'm wrong) comes as somewhat of a surprise, unless I misunderstand the concept, or you. From what I understand, Greek philosophy, in particular Plato, viewed the physical realm and the spiritual as being quite at enmity with one another, the spirit, or soul, being 'trapped' in its corrupt ad limited body. Did not Thomas Aquinas somehow extend this in Catholic thought? Or was it Augustine? That concept has been brought to us in Christendom in the idea of a soul having an independent 'mind' of its own, or is the actual mind itself, and immortal. Anyway, I agree its a trap. I think the current Christian concept of the departure of the (immortal) soul, as a continuing living entity, is a pagan concept inherited from Greek philosophy, and not taught in scripture. Believing in an eternally burning hell where the wicked live in some form or another suffering and having the ability to think and continue presumably to sin and offend and blaspheme God for all eternity, is necessary only because there must be found a place for the immortal 'soul' to live if found without Christ. As the devil said to Eve, "ye shall not surely die'...how can an immortal soul die? We don't know, but it clearly does, because the word of God tells us it does. (Ezek 18:4,20). Thus to my mind, if the soul dies, it cannot be immortal.
I believe that Genesis 2:7 encapsulates and gives the skeletal truth for the rest of scripture on the nature of man. I believe all further revelation on mind/soul/body ought to be judged in context and in relation to creation...not in context to Plato. Man became a living soul, not given one. So when scripture speaks of the soul leaving a man, or described as dying as in Ezek 18 above, and as mentioned and referenced by a previous poster in defense of Plato's concept in another thread in 1 Kings 17, we ought to read that in context of Genesis 2:7, which necessarily brings a different light to the discussion. It is the whole person which dies...body, soul, and spirit.
On another note, and which further contradicts dualism (as I understand the term not being a philosopher) when we read the gospels we read how Jesus healed the physical where necessary before attending to the spiritual. I think that therefore there is an intimate connection between the two...that in many cases if the mind is not right, the body is directly affected but the body needs to be attended to first because the pain, discomfort is such a distraction that the needs of the spirit/mind for most people are neither recognized nor seen as important in the overall scheme of things ...clarity of the spiritual needs comes when we are not distracted by our infirmities. Either way, I believe they are intimately linked, as Genesis 2 revels.