Hell . . . The Bad News.

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twinc

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Good for them. Serves them right.
They should fear and tremble because of what's ahead of them.

Born again Christians don't. Also because of what's ahead of them.

so you don't know any born again Christian devils but only sinless ones - twinc
 

Helen

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so you don't know any born again Christian devils but only sinless ones - twinc

No such thing as sinless devils twinc and you know it.
It's gobbledegook again! .... just don't.
It is one am in the morning there in England...you should be in bed! :)
 
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GodsGrace

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Christianity is sometimes criticized as a religion of fear. Well; that criticism is
not entirely without merit.

Luke 12:4-6 . . I tell you, my friends: do not be afraid of those who kill
the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you
should fear: fear Him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw
you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear Him.

For the longest time I thought it very curious that Christ didn't say that to
his opponents, rather; to his disciples. (Luke 12:1)

The koiné Greek word for "disciples" is mathetes (math-ay-tes') which
essentially identifies a learner; viz: pupils and students.

Jesus had at least seventy students (Luke 10:1) and quite possibly more
that aren't mentioned. Anyway, point being: Christ's students weren't
accomplished. They didn't really have it all down pat.

It's the same today; all over the world, there are people in the process of
learning about Christianity in Sunday schools, sermons and lectures, books,
missions, evangelistic crusades, the internet, and from radio and television
programs in accordance with Christ's wishes as per Matt 28:18-20.

Christ was not shy about informing his students as to the grim possibility of
their going to hell; and Christian teachers today really ought to be following
his example and not leave their audiences with the false impression that
there's nothing to worry about ignoring Christ's teachings.

/
Wow. What DON'T you know???
I was raised in the Catholic church by fear till I was about 14.
Then I stopped going to church for a while. Then I got saved while not going to any church or ever having read the bible.
Then I went to a Nazarene church for about 10 years and I had to put this all together.

I do believe salvation can be lost and that one must have God's spirit to be saved. Many are not taught this anymore which is a big disservice to them since Jesus clearly said what He expects from us.

Then Paul is referred to as if HE hung on the cross, OR, as if he had a different message. He didn't, of course, he was just too intelligent and many of his words are not understood, as proclaimed by Peter.

I wish everyone would read along and heed your words. Not all will...
 

GodsGrace

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who exactly do you mean by us because devils fear and tremble - twinc
Paul was pretty afraid...
1 Corinthians 9:27
but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

I'm not a believer in Christianity by fear, it doesn't work well...
However, Christianity by NO FEAR is wrong also and that is what is being taught these days. Jesus told us specifically what He expects from us.
We shouldn't make light of what HE said. Since HE will be the judge.

We should not fear as long as we are FOLLOWING HIM.
That means to obey Him. And some tell me it's not necessary because they're covered by the blood. This is incorrect theology. God demands that we obey Him. Sorry for the word "demands", but God does not make requests...
 

twinc

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Paul was pretty afraid...
1 Corinthians 9:27
but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

I'm not a believer in Christianity by fear, it doesn't work well...
However, Christianity by NO FEAR is wrong also and that is what is being taught these days. Jesus told us specifically what He expects from us.
We shouldn't make light of what HE said. Since HE will be the judge.

We should not fear as long as we are FOLLOWING HIM.
That means to obey Him. And some tell me it's not necessary because they're covered by the blood. This is incorrect theology. God demands that we obey Him. Sorry for the word "demands", but God does not make requests...


you have accidently quoted the problem but not accepted or recognized it which is actually the real and subtle problem which will lead to hell and not salvation - the problem is most do not fear because they think THEY are Following HIM - twinc
 

Webers_Home

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Probably the first thing that most of us think of when we hear the word
"hell" is everlasting torture; and that may be. But the reservoir of burning
sulfur in the book of Revelation is actually not so much a rack as it is a
gallows. The reservoir is primarily depicted as an instrument for carrying out
death sentences rather than life sentences.

A typical death sentence-- although a sentence with lasting effects --isn't
perpetual; it's momentary. In other words: criminals are subjected to a
typical execution only long enough to end their lives.

The primary reason we call the second death "eternal" is because it's
permanent; viz: according to Dan 12:2 and John 5:28-29 there's only one
resurrection allotted per person. Therefore nobody will recover from the
second death because they will have used up their one resurrection in order
to face justice at the Great White Throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15.

Q: What if people's execution in the brimstone isn't typical; i.e. isn't quick?
I mean: the day of Adam's death began the moment he tasted the forbidden
fruit; yet he continued to survive outside the garden of Eden for another 800
years after the birth of his son Seth. (Gen 5:4)

A: No response.


FYI: According to Rev 20:10, the lake of fire consists of brimstone; defined
by Webster's as sulfur; which liquifies at around 239.38° F and boils at
around 832.3° F.

Molten sulfur assumes a dark red color at around 392° F which, in all
likelihood, enhances the lake's fiery appearance.

/
 
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Webers_Home

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POSIT: I'm special; God understands me and He knows I'm only human.
Although God probably may not let others off; I'm sure He will make an
exception for me because I'm not like other people; I'm different.


RESPONSE: Unfortunately, the Bible's God can't do that. If He were to
make exceptions, God would be neither equitable, nor honest-- and worse, it
would go against His grain, compromise His integrity, sin against His
conscience; and cause Him to lose the world's respect. No, God doesn't
grade on a curve: everyone is treated equally in God's courtroom. In a
system of divine absolutes; there is neither a curve nor an exception:
nobody gets any favors, and nobody is special.

Deut 10:17 . . Yhvh shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.

Acts 10:34 . .Then Peter began to speak: I now realize how true it is that
God is impartial.

Rom 2:5-11 . . For there is coming a day of judgment when God, the just
judge of all the world, will judge all people according to what they have
done. He will give eternal life to those who persist in doing what is good,
seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.

. . . But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for
themselves, who refuse to obey the truth; and practice evil deeds. There will
be anguish and calamity for everyone who practices evil-- for the Jew first
and also for the Gentile. But there will be glory and honor and peace from
God for all practice good --for the Jew first and also for the Gentile. For God
does not show favoritism.

/
 

Webers_Home

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Q: Doesn't the Bible say that God's mercy endures forever as per Ps 100:5,
Ps 106:1, Ps 107:1, and Ps 118:1, et al?

A: God's mercy is always available; but His patience sometimes wears thin.
Good examples of that are the people swept away by the hand of God in the
Flood, and those burned to death by the hand of God in Sodom and
Gomorrah; and the firstborn of man and beast slain by the hand of God on
Passover night in Egypt.

It's possible to push God too far. For example:

Hos 4:17 . . Ephraim is joined to idols; let him alone.

In other words: God instructed the prophet Hosea not to bother preaching in
in Ephraim's borders. The people were too far gone.

Jesus said that no man can come to him lest the Father draw him
(John 6:44). Well; there are people who are never going to be drawn
because they've become too feral.

Matt 7:6 . . Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls
before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you
to pieces.

/
 

Webers_Home

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The ordeal that Christ endured on the cross was so brief that it looks like
child's play in comparison to the misery of souls in hell. His suffering barely
lasted six hours (Mark 15:25, Matt 27:46-50) not even one whole day.
People in hell go day, after day, after day, after day, after day, infinitum.

Q: But if Christ suffered only six hours, how can he possibly atone for people
facing an eternity in hell?

A: It wasn't his torture that atoned for humanity's sins; it was the loss of his
life that did the trick. Christ didn't have to go to the flames himself in order
to rescue people from flames; no, he only had to die in accordance with the
law of sin and death.

Rom 6:23 . .The wages of sin is death

Individual human lives are of such low value that the most that anybody
could hope to die for is just one sin. In most cases; that leaves a pretty
large balance to atone for. In contrast; the value of the life of God's son is
such that his death can atone for an infinite number of everybody's sins.

1Pet 1:18-20 . . For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from
the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid
was not mere gold or silver. He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of
Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God.

Peter called the blood of Christ two things: a ransom and precious, meaning
it's like rare jewels and metals; very pricey. Nobody else's life is nearly as
valuable as Christ's life. Peter would never call regular human life rare and
pricey. Ordinary human lives are wholesale: they're cheap as the grass (Isa
40:6-7, 1Pet 1:24) just a dime a dozen and quite useless for redemption
purposes.

Christ's life is the only life God will accept for multiple sins: and the
alternative is infinite punishment because no amount of limited punishment
can ever equal the value of Christ's blood because not only is a life like
Christ's rare, but his is the only one like it in existence. (cf. Rom 3:9-20,
Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22, 1John 3:9)

Serial sinners are up a creek with no paddle because they have but two lives
to forfeit for sin-- the life they have now, and the one they'll have later at
their resurrection; but unfortunately, one of those lives is ear-marked for
Adam's sin so they can't use it to atone for any of their own sins. And when
they're resurrected to stand trial at the Great White Throne event depicted
at Rev 20:11-15; that'll be their last life because according to Dan 12:2 and
John 5:28-29 there's only one resurrection allotted per person. And since the
Bible's ratio is one life per one sin, then serial sinners will come up short and
never have sufficient lives to atone for a lifetime's accumulation of sins.

The dungeons of hell can be compared to a debtor's prison.

Matt 5:25-26 . .Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too
late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in
jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last
penny.

The reason that hell is a debtor's prison is because the only payment for
one's sins that God will accept is death. Well; it's death for each sin. So if
somebody has say, 200 sins to answer for, they'll only be able to pay for one
because according to Dan 12:2 & John 5:28-29 there is but one resurrection
allotted per person; not 200.

If absolute justice could be satisfied with torture, then hell's inmates could
look forward to a release date. But alas; such isn't to happen because the
only "coinage" the Bible's God is in a position to accept in lieu of their own
lives is His son's life.

Bottom line: Christ's crucifixion is the final option. Those who refuse to take
advantage of it, will cross over to the other side in poverty; with literally no
way in hell to pay their debts to God; thus they'll be stuck there.

Heb 10:26 . . Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we
have received a full knowledge of the truth; there is no other sacrifice that
will cover these sins.

/
 

Webers_Home

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According to Gen 2:7, the human body is made from natural substances.
But human consciousness no; it isn't natural; it's supernatural; i.e. it
came from God in the form of something called the breath of life.


So the question I have to ask is: Where does a human's consciousness go
when their human body passes away?

Solomon believed that human consciousness returns to God when people
pass away (Ecc 12:7); but said nothing of its disposition from thence.

It's commonly believed that heaven is sort of like the peak of a high
mountain. All around the periphery of the mountain are numerous roads all
leading to the top. In other words: no matter which road you take; the
destination is the same.

But according to conservative Christianity; there aren't many roads to the
top: there's only one; all the rest are dead ends, loops, terraces, and/or cul
de-sacs. If conservative Christianity is right; then an awful lot of people are
facing a very uncertain future. For example, according to my sources, there
are approximately:

50 thousand Scientologists
15 million Mormons
8.2 million Jehovah's Witnesses
7.8 million Baha'i
515.9 million Buddhists
451.3 million Chinese Folk Religionists
8.4 million Confucianists
258.5 million Ethnic Religionists
974.6 million Hindus
5.6 million Jains
1.7 billion Muslims
14.1 million Jews
64.2 million New Religionists2.8 million Shintoists
24.9 million Sikhs
14.2 million Spiritists
8.7 million Taoists
640 million Non Religious
138.8 million Atheists

The grand total of just those categories is 4,852,950,000

If those figures are in the ball park, and if conservative Christianity is the
truth; then at the least 65% of the earth's current population of 7.45 billion
people are on a road to hell; and no doubt some of those are people we
know: our friends, our relatives, and our associates.


NOTE: Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are Christians, yes, but not in the
traditional sense.

Joseph Smith's movement is a cult; in other words: there's some Christianity
in Mormonism, but Christianity comprises only a portion of Mormonism. The
rest of it is extreme, to say the least.

Neither do Jehovah's Witnesses qualify as Christians in the traditional sense.
Charles Taze Russell's movement is a cult. There's some Christianity in the
Watchtower Society's doctrines, but Christianity comprises only a portion of
Russell's doctrines; and his slant on it is very peculiar.

/
 
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Triumph1300

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NOTE: Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are Christians, yes, but not in the
traditional sense.

Joseph Smith's movement is a cult; in other words: there's some Christianity
in Mormonism, but Christianity comprises only a portion of Mormonism. The
rest of it is extreme, to say the least.

Neither do Jehovah's Witnesses qualify as Christians in the traditional sense.
Charles Taze Russell's movement is a cult. There's some Christianity in the
Watchtower Society's doctrines, but Christianity comprises only a portion of
Russell's doctrines; and his slant on it is very peculiar.

You are contradicting yourself.
First you say they are Christians and then you say they are not Christians.
 
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Triumph1300

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The reason that people will not believe the truth and accept a lie, is because they don't know the word of God.
It's the cause of ALL false doctrine and the cause of all error.
It's the cause of every lost soul.
 

Grams

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This is from my church.......... And I sure believe in the teaching of this church..........




'Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the world of truth."(2 Tim. 2.15)

· Have you ever wondered why today's Christians can eat pork even though in the Old Testament men were forbidden to do so?

· Or, do you know people (or, perhaps yourself) who shun Christianity because Christians can't seem to agree on anything?

· And what about all those contractions in the Bible?



These are all valid concerns, but when a person begins to "rightly divide" the word of truth, as admonished by Paul to Timothy, these seeming difficulties and disputations are resolved. To "rightly divide" means that God has dealt with mankind at different times with different expectations from him. Although it is profitable for us to read the entire Bible (2Tim.3:16), it is imperative that we understand which part of the Bible is intended primarily for us in this time of Grace. The following excerpt from the book "Things That Differ" by C.R. Stam explains:

"If I should step inside a modern United States Post Office all would doubtless seem very confusing to me. But it would be a mistake to suggest piling all the mail neatly into one corner and handing it out promiscuously to all comers as some would do with the Bible. The postal employees must rightly divide the mail so that each person receives what is addressed to him. What seems like confusion to the novice is really a simplification of the work to be done in getting each person's private mail
to him.


It is granted that in the Bible even that which was addressed to those of other dispensations is given to us for our learning and profit, but we must not confuse this with our own private mail or make the mistake of carrying out instructions meant particularly for others.

While I am reading mail addressed personally to me, a friend may hand me, for my interest or information, mail addressed to him. His mail and mine may all prove informative and profitable, but I must still be careful not to confuse the two, expecting to receive things promised to him or carrying out instructions addressed to him.

Thus, all the Bible is for us, but it is not all addressed to us or written about us, and if we would really understand and enjoy it; if we would really know how to use it effectively in service for Christ, we must be careful always to note who is addressing whom, about what and when and why" (p.20).



In every dispensation, righteousness before God has always been achieved by believing what God has said and acting upon it. For example, the law required every male child to be circumcised, but that is not God's requirement today.

The LAW says: And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. Gen. 17:14.

But GRACE says: And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands...Col. 2:10,11.



There were also many dietary laws, and one in particular many people remember is the prohibition not to eat pork. But under the dispensation of Grace, we are not under those prohibitions.

The LAW says: And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: Ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass. Deut. 14:8

But GRACE says: For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. 1Tim: 4:4



And the Sabbath day. In our day of grace, one day is like unto another. All are to be lived to the glory of God.

The Law says: Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God...Ex. 20:8,10.

But GRACE says: Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days... Col.2:16,17


And because of the finished work of Jesus Christ at the Cross, we are no longer under any provision of the law for the forgiveness of sin.

The Law says: And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. (Matt. 6:12) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. Matt. 6:14,15.

But GRACE says: And ye be kind one to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you. Eph. 4.32.


The ultimate example of the difference between law and grace is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. The law required annual blood sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins, which we now understand were but a foreshadow of the ultimate sacrifice Christ Jesus would make for the complete payment for all of our sins.

The Law says: The blood of bulls and goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifiethto the purifying of the flesh. Heb. 9:13

But GRACE says: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12


For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. (Romans 10:4)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8,9)


Where the dispensation of the law was entrusted to Moses (John 1:17), the dispensation of the grace of God was entrusted to Paul. Why is understanding this so important? Because it is by this message of grace, dispensed by Paul, that God will judge us. Remember, righteousness comes by believing what God says (i.e., what God is saying to us in this age of Grace) and acting on it. That is what faith is: believing God; trusting Him and His Word. Paul says in Romans 2:16:

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to MY Gospel.


Paul tells us that he was appointed by God to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the Apostle of the Gentiles,..." (Ro. 11:13) and that his message was revealed to him directly by Jesus Christ:

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached to of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal.1:11,12)


How then does Paul's gospel differ? Pastor Thomas Brusha, in his booklet "Dictionary of the Gospel" gives a clear explanation:

God promised in the Old Testament to set up a Kingdom here on earth through the nation Israel, in which Christ would reign as King! Christ was here; and the good news proclaimed was that the Kingdom was at hand. In Matthew 10:7 we find this to be the same gospel the Twelve Apostles were sent to preach. Also, in Matthew 10:5,6 we learn that this gospel was good news for the Nation of Israel. It is amazing, yet true, that after the Twelve Apostles had been preaching this gospel now, for some time, they still did not know about Christ's purpose to go to the Cross and die for their sins. We know this is true because when Christ began later to tell his Apostles that he was going to Jerusalem to die, they didn't believe him, nor did they understand what he was talking about. The reason being, they were preaching the good news about the Kingdom. They expected Christ to establish Israel's Kingdom and to take the throne as their King - see Matthew 16:21,22; Luke 18:31-34: and Luke 19:11.


How then, could the twelve Apostles have preached the same gospel the Apostle Paul later preached, when they did not know or understand anything about the Cross at that time? Paul preached :

"THE CROSS" and "CHRIST CRUCIFIED (1 Corinthians 1:18,23)

The point is this. The gospel that the Twelve Apostles preached during the earthly ministry of Christ is not the same gospel the Apostle Paul was sent to preach later. According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 the gospel Paul preached was the GOOD NEWS of the DEATH, BURIAL, and RESURRECTION of Christ FOR OUR SINS.

Paul tells us in Galatians 1:11,12 where his gospel originated. It was after the resurrection and ascension that the Lord Jesus Christ revealed to the Apostle Paul all that was accomplished on the Cross. In acts 20:24 Paul calls this message "THE GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD." In Galatians 2:1,2 we see that this gospel is intended for the Gentiles as well as the Jews; and in Galatians 2:6-10 we find that the Twelve Apostles learned of this gospel from Paul.

In this present age of "GRACE", God has set Israel as a nation aside, and the Kingdom promised to them has been postponed until a future time. Therefore the "GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM" is NOT God's message of good news for today, but rather the good news of how the Cross saves Sinners of all nationalities. This is God's message for today! (pp6-8).


The following books are recommended:

"Dictionary of the Gospel" by Thomas Bruscha
"Things That Differ" by C. R. Stam
"The Dispensations" by Hazel I. Brown
 

Triumph1300

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Webershome, Blah, blah, blah, I can tell, I'm not talking to a real person here.
I'm talking to a "Copy and Paste" artist, who's not interested in a discussion.

Good bye, Troller.
 
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B

brakelite

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Of all Christian doctrines, eternal torment gives me the most angst. I could say many things, and in the past I have. But the most obvious objections, and to which there is no answer outside of a severe twisting of truth, are twofold:
1. if one is separated from the only source of life, how can he live forever and not die? And to say he does die, but continues in suffering, is utterly contradictory. Those advocating that man is immortal or in some way continues in existence beyond death, or despite it, are repeating Satan's lie in the garden...ye shall not surely die.
2. Eternal torment is totally contrary to the character of God, who the Bible says is love. Because His entire nature is love, He cannot do anything...anything at all, that is not an expression of love. There is no love in eternal torment. Not for the sinner, not for those relatives of the sinner who must live forever in the knowledge that their mother/sister/daughter/son etc is suffering for as long as God lives.

The wages of sin is death. Death in scripture is everywhere given, when in conjunction with life, as an opposite. Romans 6:23 for example. John 3:16 for example. There are numerous more. You all know them. Yet in every single case, eternal torment contradicts them. Without exception.