HELP, I'M A UNIVERSALIST - CAN SOMEONE BRING ME INTO THE FRESH WATERS OF 'ETERNAL DAMNATIONISM'?

[Michiah-Imla]

I'm not a theologian, but God damning people for eternity does not feel right with the Jesus I know.

Do you know the real Jesus?

The one who said:

Mark 9:43-44 KJV
[43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And going by your feelings is a grave error when deciding what is right and what is wrong:

Proverbs 18:2 KJV
[2] A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

Proverbs 3:5 KJV
[5] Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 

[amadeus]

@Available Light

Why use a phrase like 'Unending Death' which is not in the Bible?

Warum sprechen wir auf Englisch? Why do we speak in English?

I used the phrase because I was not quoting scripture but asking a question.

I prefer to believe that God's mercy endureth forever, and he will give life to all like Romans 5:18 states -

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

God's mercy endures forever as He endures forever and those who endure with Him to the end of their course. He is a merciful God, full of mercy but there is a limit to His mercy:

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matt 10:22

"Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:" Num 14:22-23

That was OT, but God has never changed, has He?

"For I am the LORD, I change not;.." Mal 3:6

"And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail." Heb 1:10-12

 

[Available Light]

I'm waiting to know if he cares about the truth or not, all I see is confrontation.

He asked you a question about Romans 11:36, which you have not responded to.
Why would you be waiting for him if you banned him?
His name does not highlight when I type it in.

Do you know the real Jesus?

The one who said:

Mark 9:43-44 KJV
[43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: [44] Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And going by your feelings is a grave error when deciding what is right and what is wrong:

Proverbs 18:2 KJV
[2] A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

Proverbs 3:5 KJV
[5] Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

I'm not a theologian, but I notice those mentioning Mark 9 on other forums always leave off verse 49 - "for all shall be salted with fire". Gehenna is the greek word for hell there, so others tell me, which was the burning dump outside of Jerusalem.
I have not seen anyone burning in a dump out old Jerusalem on my trips to Israel -
maybe there is a spiritual interpretation.

 

[TLHKAJ]

I'm not a theologian, but God damning people for eternity does not feel right with the Jesus I know.
It makes me cringe, I thought Jesus paid the price for all the sins of everyone?

How can people really love God knowing he is burning people for eternity?

Look to the Scriptures ...

John 3 (KJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¹⁶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ¹⁷ For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. ¹⁸ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ¹⁹ And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. ²⁰ For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. ²¹ But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” — Revelation 3:20 (KJV)

God had provided everything we need through Jesus Christ, His Son. All we have to do is believe...and choose...then follow Him.

“(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)” — 2 Corinthians 6:2 (KJV)

“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” — Joshua 24:15 (KJV)

Anything we go through in this life is but a moment. It seems like forever, but once we enter eternity, this will all be like a momentary suffering compared to what is awaiting those who choose Him.

2 Corinthians 4 (KJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¹⁷ For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; ¹⁸ While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

God has amazing things in store for those who choose life through Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2 (KJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ⁹ But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. ¹⁰ But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Don't allow satan to keep you from the gift God so freely gave you through Jesus Christ. Eternity awaits and it's far better than what we can imagine. And even here, abundant life is His desire for you.

“The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” — John 10:10 (KJV)

 

[Available Light]

Look to the Scriptures ...

John 3 (KJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¹⁶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ¹⁷ For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. ¹⁸ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ¹⁹ And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. ²⁰ For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. ²¹ But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” — Revelation 3:20 (KJV)

God had provided everything we need through Jesus Christ, His Son. All we have to do is believe...and choose...then follow Him.

“(For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)” — 2 Corinthians 6:2 (KJV)

“And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” — Joshua 24:15 (KJV)

Anything we go through in this life is but a moment. It seems like forever, but once we enter eternity, this will all be like a momentary suffering compared to what is awaiting those who choose Him.

2 Corinthians 4 (KJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¹⁷ For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; ¹⁸ While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

God has amazing things in store for those who choose life through Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 2 (KJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ⁹ But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. ¹⁰ But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Don't allow satan to keep you from the gift God so freely gave you through Jesus Christ. Eternity awaits and it's far better than what we can imagine. And even here, abundant life is His desire for you.

“The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.” — John 10:10 (KJV)

Does perish in John 3:16 mean Eternal Damnation? I'm not a theologian, but what others have told me is the greek word for perish is apollumi or some thing like that. Mark 4:38 uses the same word perish when the disciples were in the boat, did they also fear eternal damnation?

All I know is in the end of the last book of the bible - revelations, Jesus said, behold I make all things new - revelations 21:5

 

[Renniks]

I'm not a theologian, but God damning people for eternity does not feel right with the Jesus I know.
It makes me cringe, I thought Jesus paid the price for all the sins of everyone?

How can people really love God knowing he is burning people for eternity?

Jesus is the one who talked about hell the most, to warn people who would say what you just said. Paying for the sins of everyone doesn't mean everyone accepts that payment. You can not force someone to take a gift or it's no longer a gift. And God doesn't damn anyone, they damn themselves by not accepting his words:
47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

 

[lforrest]

He asked you a question about Romans 11:36, which you have not responded to.
Why would you be waiting for him if you banned him?
His name does not highlight when I type it in.

I tend not to answer questions when there is clearly an ulterior motive to the asking. I didn't ban him, he may be back in time if he chooses to return.

If you are curious about Romans 11:36 it is regarding the sovereignty of the Lord Jesus. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. From a materialist's perspective his creation has been conserved so that what he created in the beginning has been used through all history, and it will continue until heaven and earth pass away. While authority was delegated to us, it will not remain this way forever.

 

[Available Light]

I tend not to answer questions when there is clearly an ulterior motive to the asking. I didn't ban him, he may be back in time if he chooses to return.

If you are curious about Romans 11:36 it is regarding the sovereignty of the Lord Jesus. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. From a materialist's perspective his creation has been conserved so that what he created in the beginning has been used through all history, and it will continue until heaven and earth pass away. While authority was delegated to us, it will not remain this way forever.

What was his ulterior motive? He just asked your response to Romans 11:36, and as christians we are supposed to give testimony to the hope in us as colossians says. Not reject people just because they don't see things are way.

I appreciate you response, but if it says All things came out of him, is not this the same all things that goes back to him. It only mentions all things once. It does not say out of him are all things and to him are some things.

 

[Available Light]

Jesus is the one who talked about hell the most, to warn people who would say what you just said. Paying for the sins of everyone doesn't mean everyone accepts that payment. You can not force someone to take a gift or it's no longer a gift. And God doesn't damn anyone, they damn themselves by not accepting his words:
47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

I'm not sure if you are referring to hades or gehenna, from what I understand, the word hell was first place in translations beginning in the 1600's.
David said in pslam 139:8 if he made his bed in sheol, thou art there.
and when jonah was in the whale, he said out of the belly of hell i cried and God heard me - jonah 2:2 -
do you think hell is in the belly of a whale?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Anyone?

Ask Jesus, he'll free you from both. But there will be no fresh water in the Lake of Fire, not even a drop. Don't worry, it won't last long. As a paper burns in the fire and is destroyed, it can't keep burning endlessly - as if there was an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing. No, I think the flaw in traditional Christian theology concerning "eternal damnation" should be examined more thoroughly. But some scholars would say, Hell is a spiritual place. Well then what is spiritual fire? We get the concept of Hell from the Gehenna, a perpetual burning dump that was used for dead animals and people outside of Jerusalem. "Where the worm never dies" is actually true because it literally survives underground in that dump, comes up to eat flesh on the outer edge of the dump and not actually in but away the fire. Jesus threatened the Pharasees with, "Serpents! brood of vipers! How may ye escape from the judgment of the Gehenna?" Matt. 23:33 YLT
Start with the word "eternal". It comes from the Greek word "aionios", which has variable meanings. If it is used to describe a temporal reality, it means: ages, lifetimes, generations, epochs, etc., periods of time that will pass away. Even the word everlasting should be correctly translated as age-lasting or age-during and in some translations, like YLT, it is. *Keep in mind that all former thing will pass away. Hades and death itself will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. If the Lake of Fire is a physical place and more of an event _ on earth _ or below the crust of the earth, then it too will pass away. At the end of the Bible we see a new heaven and earth being created (Rev. 21). Even the sun and moon are no more and the light comes from God! Okay, the other way aionios is used to actually mean eternal would be when it refers to God, His domain or our salvation.
Why would God sustain some kid that sinned for 15 years or even an adult for 80 years in an eternal torture chamber? What purpose or glory would that give Him. He desires none to perish but that all would come to know the truth, yet some reject His free offer or ETERNAL LIFE.
"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” John 3:36 NASB
This one is black and white, cut and dry, believe it or not! And btw, His judgment is coming very soon!

 

[Available Light]

Ask Jesus, he'll free you from both. But there will be no fresh water in the Lake of Fire, not even a drop. Don't worry, it won't last long. As a paper burns in the fire and is destroyed, it can't keep burning endlessly - as if there was an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing. No, I think the flaw in traditional Christian theology concerning "eternal damnation" should be examined more thoroughly. But some scholars would say, Hell is a spiritual place. Well then what is spiritual fire? We get the concept of Hell from the Gehenna, a perpetual burning dump that was used for dead animals and people outside of Jerusalem. "Where the worm never dies" is actually true because it literally survives underground in that dump, comes up to eat flesh on the outer edge of the dump and not actually in but away the fire. Jesus threatened the Pharasees with, "Serpents! brood of vipers! How may ye escape from the judgment of the Gehenna?" Matt. 23:33 YLT
Start with the word "eternal". It comes from the Greek word "aionios", which has variable meanings. If it is used to describe a temporal reality, it means: ages, lifetimes, generations, epochs, etc., periods of time that will pass away. Even the word everlasting should be correctly translated as age-lasting or age-during and in some translations, like YLT, it is. *Keep in mind that all former thing will pass away. Hades and death itself will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. If the Lake of Fire is a physical place and more of an event _ on earth _ or below the crust of the earth, then it too will pass away. At the end of the Bible we see a new heaven and earth being created (Rev. 21). Even the sun and moon are no more and the light comes from God! Okay, the other way aionios is used to actually mean eternal would be when it refers to God, His domain or our salvation.
Why would God sustain some kid that sinned for 15 years or even an adult for 80 years in an eternal torture chamber? What purpose or glory would that give Him. He desires none to perish but that all would come to know the truth, yet some reject His free offer or ETERNAL LIFE.
"The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” John 3:36 NASB
This one is black and white, cut and dry, believe it or not! And btw, His judgment is coming very soon!

I'm not a theologian, but Rom 9:16 states, It's not of him that willeth or him that runneth, but God that shows mercy.

What is spiritual fire you ask - you mean like the Baptism of Fire?
Or, like Isaiah 4:4 states When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

 

[Berserk]

You left out that pesky VS 25 -
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

You shockingly omitted the key verse cited by universalists in Romans 11:

"God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He might be merciful to all (11:32)."

The pro-universalist interpretation then depends on these 4 points.
(1) "Imprisoned" implies that none can resist God's purpose for human disobedience--mercy rather that merit-based justice.
(2) "The 2 "alls" are parallel and therefore universal.
(3) Universal mercy as divine purpose is fulfilled by the cosmic reconciliation implied in 11:36:
"For from Him and for Him and back to Him are all things."
(4) 11:32 implies that the Genesis story of the Fall is rather the story of the birth of conscience: e. g.

"The Lord God said: "See, the man has become like us, knowing good from evil, and now he might reach out his hand and take from the tree of life and eat and live forever (Genesis 3:24)."

Here God implies that the disobedience of Adam and Eve entails the benefit of making them godlike in their resulting ability to become moral beings who can now discern good from evil. Romans 11:32 implies that this desirable outcome was God's plan all along.

Let me make it clear that I'm not a universalist. But I do want the best possible case to be made for contrary positions, so that progress can be made to a final resolution of this question.

 

[Available Light]

You shockingly omitted the key verse cited by universalists in Romans 11:

"God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He might be merciful to all (11:32)."

The pro-universalist interpretation then depends on these 4 points.
(1) "Imprisoned" implies that none can resist God's purpose for human disobedience--mercy rather that merit-based justice.
(2) "The 2 "alls" are parallel and therefore universal.
(3) Universal mercy as divine purpose is fulfilled by the cosmic reconciliation implied in 11:36:
"For from Him and for Him and back to Him are all things."
(4) 11:32 implies that the Genesis story of the Fall is rather the story of the birth of conscience: e. g.

"The Lord God said: "See, the man has become like us, knowing good from evil, and now he might reach out his hand and take from the tree of life and eat and live forever (Genesis 3:24)."

Here God implies that the disobedience of Adam and Eve entails the benefit of making them godlike in their resulting ability to become moral beings who can now discern good from evil. Romans 11:32 implies that this desirable outcome was God's plan all along.

Let me make it clear that I'm not a universalist. But I do want the best possible case to be made for contrary positions, so that progress can be made to a final resolution of this question.

I Cor 15:28 makes the final resolution pretty clear -
"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God MAY BE ALL IN ALL."

Probably the "All Things" Romans 11:36 speaks of.

"All Things" makes an interesting Bible Study.

 

[Base12]

...do you think hell is in the belly of a whale?

 

[Base12]

Ephesians 4:9
"Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"

 

[Renniks]

I'm not sure if you are referring to hades or gehenna, from what I understand, the word hell was first place in translations beginning in the 1600's.
David said in pslam 139:8 if he made his bed in sheol, thou art there.
and when jonah was in the whale, he said out of the belly of hell i cried and God heard me - jonah 2:2 -
do you think hell is in the belly of a whale?

Jesus doesn’t only reference hell, he describes it in great detail. He says it is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:23), of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43), where the worm does not die (Mark 9:48), where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19–31). He calls hell a place of “outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30), comparing it to “Gehenna” (Matt. 10:28), which was a trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burned and maggots abounded.

 

[Available Light]

Jesus doesn’t only reference hell, he describes it in great detail. He says it is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:23), of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43), where the worm does not die (Mark 9:48), where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19–31). He calls hell a place of “outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30), comparing it to “Gehenna” (Matt. 10:28), which was a trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burned and magrgots abounded.

Interesting that "the children of the kingdom shall be cast into outer darkness" (Matthew 8:12) -
The word 'eternal' in the NT is always the greek word 'aionious' which is plural for aion, there can't be eternal judgment since Matthew 12:20 states A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

Sounds like Romans 11:25 that Kreisel quoted above - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

No one is saying there is not judgment, but it's the nature and end result, which is victory.

 

[Renniks]

Interesting that "the children of the kingdom shall be cast into outer darkness" (Matthew 8:12) -
The word 'eternal' in the NT is always the greek word 'aionious' which is plural for aion, there can't be eternal judgment since Matthew 12:20 states A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

In the same chapter:
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

And the Isaiah quote has nothing to do with everybody being saved.
It's about justice and a promise that God will protect israel.
It says people of all Nations will put hope in him not that every individual will.

 

[Available Light]

In the same chapter:
32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

And the Isaiah quote has nothing to do with everybody being saved.
It's about justice and promise that God will protect israel.
It says people of all Nations will put hope in him not that every individual will.

Nope, Rom 11:25 says THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES SHALL COME IN -

"every knee shall bow and tongue confess, 'Jesus is Lord', to the glory of God the Father"
as for the sin not forgiven in this age (age of law) and age to come (church age) - it will be forgiven in the dispensation of the fulness of times when all things will be gathered into Him - Ephesians 1: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

See, everything is predestined, God is actually in control of his creation -
imagine that!

 

[Renniks]

Nope, Rom 11:25 says THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES SHALL COME IN -

"every knee shall bow and tongue confess, 'Jesus is Lord', to the glory of God the Father"
as for the sin not forgiven in this age (age of law) and age to come (church age) - it will be forgiven in the dispensation of the fulness of times when all things will be gathered into Him - Ephesians 1: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

See, everything is predestined, God is actually in control of his creation -
imagine that!

Only that's not what it means at all.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Yes Paul had lots of glorious promises for believers, but also warnings:

Ephesians 5:5,6 says, "For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh THE WRATH OF GOD upon the children of disobedience."

Universalism is just Calvinism with unlimited atonement, and those that preach it do the same thing Calvinists do, they pick a few verses out of context to try and make them say what they want them to instead of rightly dividing the whole Word.