HELP, I'M A UNIVERSALIST - CAN SOMEONE BRING ME INTO THE FRESH WATERS OF 'ETERNAL DAMNATIONISM'?

[Renniks]

First, you need to quote all of Romans 8:1, not just the first portion of it.

Amazing how you add to scripture.

I'm sure Romans 8:21 in its purity, without your commentary, throws you for a loop.

Not at all. Even just picking out that verse alone doesn't suggest universalism.

 

[Zadok]

Not at all. Even just picking out that verse alone doesn't suggest universalism.

I've noticed you say that about all the verses, without offering the alternative. If I was looking for someone to defend Eternal Damnationism, you would not be on the list.

 

[Zadok]

I see, no judgement for the demonic Vegas shooter as he blew the brains out, and ripped the flesh apart of hundreds of innocent concert goers, then blew his own wretched head off. No judgement for the Conneticut shooter that blew the brains out of 5 year olds for his enjoyment.

Are you saying one sin is greater than any other?
The judgement or condemnation of all men who live after the flesh, is death, as Romans 8:13 clearly states
Or, more plainly for you "the wages of sin is death" - Rom 6:23.

btw, you need to add a 'c' in connecticut.

 

[Renniks]

Hmm, let's see what the Bible says, shall we?
This is a christian forum, right?
II Cor 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Yup, the Vegas shooter too!
Imagine that, Jesus, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.

I John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

These verses just eat the Devil alive, he burns inside.

Universal atonement, not universal acceptance of that atonement.
Again quit cherry picking verses.

 

[Renniks]

I've noticed you say that about all the verses, without offering the alternative. If I was looking for someone to defend Eternal Damnationism, you would not be on the list.

The alternative is to read the scriptures in context. Why would you think the verse means everyone is included in children of God, when there's so many verses saying otherwise?

 

[Renniks]

Are you saying one sin is greater than any other?
The judgement or condemnation of all men who live after the flesh, is death, as Romans 8:13 clearly states
Or, more plainly for you "the wages of sin is death" - Rom 6:23.

btw, you need to add a 'c' in connecticut.

John 19:11 - Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. Matthew 12:31 -

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Of course some sins are more serious than others.

 

[Zadok]

Universal atonement, not universal acceptance of that atonement.
Again quit cherry picking verses.

You're only response, because of your inadequacy, is the old cherry- picking excuse.
You're not ready for my Cherry Orchard, you choke on every cherry in scripture.
If you were truly an adept student of the Bible, you'd have an intelligent response to what you call cherries.
But you don't, so you discredit yourself.

 

[Zadok]

John 19:11 - Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. Matthew 12:31 -

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Of course some sins are more serious than others.

you leave off "in this age or the age to come" -
again, you discredit yourself.

 

[Renniks]

you leave off "in this age or the age to come" -
again, you discredit yourself.

How does that hep you? And why are Universalists so insulting if they believe everyone is God's chosen?

 

[Renniks]

You're only response, because of your inadequacy, is the old cherry- picking excuse.
You're not ready for my Cherry Orchard, you choke on every cherry in scripture.
If you were truly an adept student of the Bible, you'd have an intelligent response to what you call cherries.
But you don't, so you discredit yourself.

You have not answered any of my objections, so they still stand. All you offer are boring insults.

 

[Zadok]

You have not answered any of my objections, so they still stand. All you offer are boring insults.

All your objections are based on a false premise and inferior interpretations -
Chew on Acts 3:19-26 for awhile, damationists hate this one too - there are eight cherries for you to chew on -

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

[lforrest]

Profound.
As stated, in the context of this post, God does not live in the box people place him in, thinking they can unravel his mystery for the liberation of creation:
Romans 8:21 The creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;
Wow!! Sounds universalist to me.

BTW, being new here, has Kreisel been convinced of the fresh, cool waters of Eternal Damnationism by anyone yet?

He has been convicted of breaking multiple rules. It would appear he didnt know how to act civil. And he is now banned from the site permanently for this new dishonesty, because he is your alt account as shown by IPs in the same geographic location and your picking up conversations where you left off. Your new account is also banned as well.

FYI for everyone else I am discussing staff actions because that prohibition is for members, and he is no longer welcome here.

 

[Wrangler]

Only God can judge.

That is totally untrue! More to the point, God is the ultimate or final judge.

I believe the Christian perspective is why waste your time judging if you do not have authority? There are 4 Biblical authorities on Earth:

1. Parents
2. Husband
3. Boss (Master)
4. Priest

Solomon was quite the judge in telling the 2 ladies fighting over the baby that he'll equally divide the child between them. His wisdom rooted out the truth. While I am a parent, husband and boss, my co-workers have often expressed intrigue at how non-judgmental I am of others affairs. They sense my conversation with them is rooted in love; I want what is best for them. While I leave the decision to them, I ASK them questions designed to get them to think. Their choice is between them and God.

 

[Wrangler]

For me God not willing anyone should perish is a desire which will not come to fruition. In the Lord's prayer Jesus prays "your will be done on earth as it is in heaven." Implying his will is not always done on earth.

I have thought long and hard about this over many years, decades.

My conclusion? God's creation includes room for our choices in shaping the details of his inevitable story. By way of comparison, I was on vacation last week visiting 3 of my 7 children and 11 of my 17 grandchildren. My inevitable story was to spend time with them. The details were shaped mostly by their choices. It was a glorious vacation.

Praise God!

 

[Wrangler]

he is your alt account as shown by IPs in the same geographic location and your picking up conversations where you left off. Your new account is also banned as well.

You mean he talked to himself under different accounts making it seem like 2 people were having a conversation? Wow!

 

[Truther]

Are you saying one sin is greater than any other?
The judgement or condemnation of all men who live after the flesh, is death, as Romans 8:13 clearly states
Or, more plainly for you "the wages of sin is death" - Rom 6:23.

btw, you need to add a 'c' in connecticut.

Now we are on the right track.

If someone dies a sinner, they are in wrong standing with God.

They will be judged according to their works.

If their evil works outweigh their righteousness, they are cast into the lake of fire.

Read Rev 20:14 etc.

 

[Truther]

That is totally untrue! More to the point, God is the ultimate or final judge.

I believe the Christian perspective is why waste your time judging if you do not have authority? There are 4 Biblical authorities on Earth:

1. Parents
2. Husband
3. Boss (Master)
4. Priest

Solomon was quite the judge in telling the 2 ladies fighting over the baby that he'll equally divide the child between them. His wisdom rooted out the truth. While I am a parent, husband and boss, my co-workers have often expressed intrigue at how non-judgmental I am of others affairs. They sense my conversation with them is rooted in love; I want what is best for them. While I leave the decision to them, I ASK them questions designed to get them to think. Their choice is between them and God.

I am speaking of God judging our decisions whether they are sins or not..

 

[Wrangler]

Only God can judge.

That is totally untrue! More to the point, God is the ultimate or final judge.

I am speaking of God judging our decisions whether they are sins or not..

This is where Christians get into trouble, losing discernment. It is simply incorrect to ever say only judge can judge because there are 8 billion humans, all of whom can judge. Best to say what can be eternally defended: God is the ultimate or final judge. It is incorrect to say only he can judge.

Getting back to OP, a universalist brought up an interesting juxtaposition regarding how Judgment Day has eternal consequences for us all. We tend to automatically thing of damnation as being ongoing but the same words are used to describe being judged favorably. Those people are not judged favorably on an ongoing basis. They are judged on a one time basis. It's just that the consequences are eternal from that day's judgment.

It is inconceivable to me that a God of love, mercy and grace would impose endless punishment. I am not full of love, mercy and grace and I do not even consider punishing my children without end. I punish them, once and done. Then they return to my good graces, having paid to me the consequences of their sins.

I totally understand God and his Servant Jesus wanting people to avoid the hell fires and Lake of Fire. It would be better if those poor souls dissolved into oblivion than punished severely on an ongoing basis. Just what purpose does that serve?