HELP, I'M A UNIVERSALIST - CAN SOMEONE BRING ME INTO THE FRESH WATERS OF 'ETERNAL DAMNATIONISM'?

[2nd Timothy Group]

Nope, Rom 11:25 says THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES SHALL COME IN -

"every knee shall bow and tongue confess, 'Jesus is Lord', to the glory of God the Father"
as for the sin not forgiven in this age (age of law) and age to come (church age) - it will be forgiven in the dispensation of the fulness of times when all things will be gathered into Him - Ephesians 1: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

See, everything is predestined, God is actually in control of his creation -
imagine that!

That's the only way it could possibly be if there is a Plan that belongs to God. Paul made this unbelievably clear in Ephesians chapters 2 and 3. Why we don't see it? Our pastors don't teach it, thus the "flock" has been plucked of the Core of the Entire Bible.

 

[JohnDB]

I sense the miasma of fear

Not fear...it's something else that starts with the letter "d"...

 

[atpollard]

I'm not a theologian, but God damning people for eternity does not feel right with the Jesus I know.
It makes me cringe, I thought Jesus paid the price for all the sins of everyone?

How can people really love God knowing he is burning people for eternity?

When I was young, we lived on a farm far from the luxuries of suburbia likes streetlights or sidewalks or paved roads. Once a month was “trash night” and all of the trash that had accumulated was thrown into a pile surrounded by a ring of stones and burned.


God is just dragging all of the “trash” to a place outside of heaven where everything worthless can be burned ... just like on the farm.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I'm not a theologian, but God damning people for eternity does not feel right with the Jesus I know.

Especially when considering that all have been impacted by the Curse of Adam and Eve, a Curse of which only Christ may lift. Further still, and on top of this basic Curse, was the "deep sleep" that was spread across Israel. The "deep sleep" was an added layer of inability to obey. This sleep, and though warned in the Law, that Israel would make the wrong choices and be brought to cooking, hiding, and eating their own children. Regardless, the Sleep is what caused them to do the things they did, including the all-night raping that killed a woman . . . the Benjamites, of all people!

We have been placed into this Spiritual Sleep so that the Lord might show His Glory and Power! And as we look at the entire Bible, there is a small vein of people who lead this Holy Way. In very small numbers, known by many as the "Remnant," this Holy Vine of people have been granted the ability to slither through this chaotic world.

 

[DNB]

I'm waiting to know if he cares about the truth or not, all I see is confrontation.

...and complete ignorance of the verses the he quoted.
It will become an absolute mess to try and refute him, with the type of hermeneutics that he's employing in his exegesis. You're right, the OP has the connotation of mockery, revealing a closed, impetuous and deluded attitude about his understanding, and willingness to debate in a competent manner.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

...and complete ignorance of the verses the he quoted.
It will become an absolute mess to try and refute him, with the type of hermeneutics that he's employing in his exegesis. You're right, the OP has the connotation of mockery, revealing a closed, impetuous and deluded attitude about his understanding, and willingness to debate in a competent manner.

This is some pretty deep Doctrine that we're looking at, here. To even have the ability to discuss this Doctrine from their point of view requires a lot of Biblical studies. . . it requires an ability to almost view the Bible as a single picture. To understand this view, one must be much aware of the Mysterious Plan of God. Without a working knowledge of what that means will result in an alternate interpretation. We must know the Mysterious Plan of God.

 

[DNB]

You left out that pesky VS 25 -
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Most all are still ignorant of the mystery . .

Yes, you are extremely ignorant of the mystery, and how so!
You have no alternative understandings of Romans 11:25? You are unaware of certain numbers of capacity that God has defined, in order to populate his kingdom (Revelations)? What grounds will precipitate Christ's return to earth, is it not when the pre-determined number of the elect have been witnessed to, and consequently accepted the Lord Christ as their Saviour? Does not the expression 'fulness of the Gentiles' refer to the required number of non Jews that God has exacted to be in His son's Kingdom, before He sets His attention back towards the Israelites?

Only a fool will start a debate with a single verse, especially on such a topic as controversial as this. This is definitively a sign of lack of understanding and incompetence, ...and which is why lforrest does not deem you worthy to engage with as of yet. If you had an iota of sense or responsibility within you, you would have at least addressed 5 major verses from the contrarian position, and then 5 from your own. But, this basic and elementary principle has entirely eluded you, again, showing your unworthiness and ineptitude to even allow you to address such a profound and controversial doctrine as this.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Yes, you are extremely ignorant of the mystery, and how so!
You have no alternative understandings of Romans 11:25? You are unaware of certain numbers of capacity that God has defined, in order to populate his kingdom (Revelations)? What grounds will precipitate Christ's return to earth, is it not when the pre-determined number of the elect have been witnessed to, and consequently accepted the Lord Christ as their Saviour? Does not the expression 'fulness of the Gentiles' refer to the required number of non Jews that God has exacted to be in His son's Kingdom, before He sets His attention back towards the Israelites?

Only a fool will start a debate with a single verse, especially on such a topic as controversial as this. This is definitively a sign of lack of understanding and incompetence, ...and which is why lforrest does not deem you worthy to engage with as of yet. If you had an iota of sense or responsibility within you, you would have at least addressed 5 major verses from the contrarian position, and then 5 from your own. But, this basic and elementary principle has entirely eluded you, again, showing your unworthiness and ineptitude to even allow you to address such a profound and controversial doctrine as this.

Does the below verse do anything to you?

Matthew 5:22 NIV - "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

 

[DNB]

I sense the miasma of fear

Oh, yeah, the devil is just the personification of the demonic earthly nature of mortals.

Hi AL, your views are appreciated, but there is an overall naiveté in your defense - you have yet to address the other side of the argument?
Similar to the free-will vs God's sovereignty controversy, most competent and reasonable exegetes acknowledge the weight of the other side's testimony, Biblically speaking. Do you not feel that the non-universalists have substantial grounds for their position, and if so, you are therefore revealing an extremely simplistic and narrow-minded view on the matter - by merely offering isolated passages that support your position alone.

It will do you well to state what you feel about your opponents handling of Scripture, if it is justified or not, and why. Because, clearly and undeniably, there is an utter plethora of verses that, on their own, viably support eternal damnation. Whether or not, this decisively ends the issue, they must be acknowledged and addressed in order to conduct a competent debate, and to deem your own understanding as being comprehensive or not.

 

[Taken]

"Available Light"; you're working on a straw man

No. I was speaking literally, regarding your statement of "person".

No one said it was a human body,

A human body shall Return to Dust.
An unsaved body shall Return to Dust, BY Fire, its Second Death.

That's the eternal damnationist's issue that literalize the spiritual metaphors in the Book of Revelation

You claim to be a Univeralists....which impart is to say "All will be Saved."

Salvation is regarding the SOUL, (which belongs to God, IS Living; BECAUSE it HAS Gods Breath of Life IN IT.)

All human Body's, Begin "Naturally" from the SEED of man. Their Body's are from Dust, and Return to Dust.
The Body is the Human. It's Life is its BLOOD.
Men can Kill a Human Body.
God can Destroy a Human Body.

A Soul; Gods Breath of Life, Brings a Human Body "INTO AN ALIVE LIVING INDIVIDUAL".

A Living Body, Has a "Natural" TRUTH, in its Heart. Which IS its "Natural spirit" of man.

A "Natural man", during his lifetime...has Opportunity to HEAR, Learn, "THE WORD OF God"...and "Naturally and Supernaturally"... BELIEVE Gods Word....OR NOT.

(Naturally- BY Hearing- BY CHOOSING to Continue to HEAR/READ/Learn).

(Supernaturally- By God WHO GIFTS "An Individual" / WHO IS Hearing Gods Word / "WITH measures OF FAITH").

A Living INDIVIDUAL; Hearing/ Gaining Measures of Faith... IS an individual Among the "MANY", being "CALLED", TO Heart-fully Call on the Lord and "CONFESS"...his BELIEF IN the Lord God.
(Naturally dead human Body's Know nothing).
•It is while a Human Body IS Naturally Alive - IN ITS BLOOD LIFE, Such A Confession IS OR IS NOT MADE.

A MADE Heartful Confession OF a Naturally Living BODY "IS the individual Humans OPPORTUNITY, TO CONFESS Heartful Belief"...
And WHEN such a Living Human Body...MAKES such a Choice "TO BELIEVE"...
"HIS LIVING soul Becomes SAVED".
"That" man's BODY...
Becomes "Chosen BY GOD", TO BE, Risen IN GLORY...(Changed from corrupt natural MORTAL, TO supernatural holy IMMORTAL)

Many ARE Called, FEW are Chosen.

•Salvation of SOULS, Occurs While a humans Blood Life Body IS ALIVE...NOT AFTER it BLOOD LIFE Death.

Living SAVED Souls, Depart out of Physically Natural Dead Body's ...and go to Heaven, (wait in Comfort) ; the Body is Buried (waiting to BE risen in Glory and Judged)

Living UNSAVED souls, Departed out of Physically Natural Dead Body's ...Go to Hell, (wait in torments) ; the Body is Buried
(Waiting to be risen in and Face Judgement).

Those living souls IN Hell...are Separated / VOID From All of Gods Comforts and Pleasures That human men HAVE while UPON the Earth...
•Gods inner Comfort of Peace, Beauty to See, Pleasant Odors to Smell, Pleasant Sounds to Hear, Pleasant things to Taste, Pleasant things to Touch.... ALL Denied an UNSAVED SOUL...IN HELL, while that LIVING SOUL Waits Judgement!

Those Living Souls in Hell ...will be United With their RAISED Dead Body (raised to/IN Hell) and Both "body and soul" Shall be Judged, by the Evidence IN Gods Books.
They are Raised "IN DAMINATION"...
because the Evidence is already Established.

Their Body Name shall have been blotted out of Gods Book of Life, when they Naturally die in Disbelief (no Evidence of a Living Body).
Their Soul Name will Never have been entered (Saved), IN the Lambs Book of Life (no Evidence of a Saved Living soul).

Gods LIFE in that soul Shall Return TO God ...
And that man's Dead Lifeless Body and that Lifeless Soul...shall experience a Forever Second Death, and Forever Separation from God.
Body and Soul Shall be Thrown into the Fire Pit, Burned, Destroyed, Return to Dust/Ash....and Remembered nomore.

All this knowledge IS Revealed IN the Word of God. The Very Word Jesus Revealed and said TO Spread and Tell the Whole World....
Also NOTING: MANY OF this World would REJECT "His Word"...and "FEW would BE Saved"....and the Same FEW...will one Day, Live Forever with their Lord God Almighty....VOID of Evil, Wickedness, Unholiness and Corruption.

Learn and Trust the Lord Gods Truth.
God SENT His Word for You to Have and Trust to Believe.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[CadyandZoe]

Anyone?

Go and sin no more.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why use a phrase like 'Unending Death' which is not in the Bible?
I prefer to believe that God's mercy endureth forever, and he will give life to all like Romans 5:18 states -

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

When Paul says "the one free gift came upon all men" he doesn't mean to say that every person who ever lived will be granted eternal life. Verse 18 is a summary statement, concluding the previous two paragraphs. These paragraphs are not intended as an argument for universal salvation, because the emphasis isn't on the people being saved, but on the source of their salvation. Let me summarize Paul's argument this way.

1. There isn't a person who ever lived that didn't fall under condemnation, because like Adam, they all sinned.
2. There isn't a person who ever lived that will be granted eternal life apart from the free gift afforded by Jesus Christ.

In other words, Paul is arguing that there is no other source, means, or route to eternal life other than Jesus Christ.

To put it another way, Paul elsewhere argues for the new "anthropos", a new and better type of human being. And here in Romans 5 he compares and contrasts the Old Anthropos with the New Anthropos.

1. Adam represents the Old Anthropos, the human being who stands condemned for being a sinner.
2. Jesus represents the New Anthropos, a human being without sin and one with the deepest love known to man.

And the question is, who among us will die with this present world and who among us will survive into the next world? Only those members of the Old Anthropos whom God has miraculously transformed into the New Anthropos will survive.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I'm not a theologian, but Rom 9:16 states, It's not of him that willeth or him that runneth, but God that shows mercy.

What is spiritual fire you ask - you mean like the Baptism of Fire?
Or, like Isaiah 4:4 states When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

There is a figurative meaning if being tested by fire and then there is God who is like a flame of Fire that we could not be in His presence as we are physically - we would burn up. I have studued all the scriptures about Hell, Hades, the Abyss/ Bottomless Pit. They are a part of this physical earth, below the surface or on the surface as Gehenna was. When the first earth is destroyed after the Millennial Kingdom, then it will melt in a fervent heat (2 Peter 3:10). The closest imagery likened to Hell would be that scene at the end of "The Lord Of The Rings", when Gollum fell into the volcanic lake of fire. How long do you think he enjoyed his precious for?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Does perish in John 3:16 mean Eternal Damnation? I'm not a theologian, but what others have told me is the greek word for perish is apollumi or some thing like that. Mark 4:38 uses the same word perish when the disciples were in the boat, did they also fear eternal damnation?

All I know is in the end of the last book of the bible - revelations, Jesus said, behold I make all things new - revelations 21:5

John 3:16 neither supports or denies the idea of burning in the lake of fire for eternity. We know this, hell itself is also burned in the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14

There are two main connotations to the word "perish"
1. suffer death, typically in a violent, sudden, or untimely way.
2. suffer complete ruin or destruction.

John's meaning is clarified by his contrast between those who perish and those who have eternal life because they believed in the one who died for the entire world. Many of those who perished in the first sense, will not perish in the second sense. Others, who refused to believe in the one who died for the entire world, will perish in the second sense.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I Cor 15:28 makes the final resolution pretty clear -
"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God MAY BE ALL IN ALL."

Probably the "All Things" Romans 11:36 speaks of.

"All Things" makes an interesting Bible Study.

Yes, certainly. In my studies, I have found that the Greek phrase "all things" doesn't literally mean "all things everywhere and for all time."

Suppose a young woman wanted to bake a cake with her mother. Her mother decides help her gather all the ingredients together and teach her how to mix them and form them into the pan. During the process they discover that they lack a few ingredients called out in the recipe. Mom calls dad on the phone, reminding him to swing by the store and pick up the missing ingredients on his way home from work. Mother tells her daughter, "Dad will bring all things home after work and then we will finish our cake."

Mother isn't suggesting that Dad with bring home everything in the world; and neither is she suggesting that Dad will bring home every ingredient called out in the recipe. She simply wants her daughter to know that Dad will bring home "all things", that is "all the missing ingredients".

 

[Base12]

OP. Not sure if you are still reading your thread, but I'll add some more info just in case.

As a Universalist, you are closer to the Truth than most. No one on this forum, as far as I know, understands what Hell and the Lake of Fire Truly is.

All I can do is point folks to the Door. They have to walk through. I can not do it for them.

Almost every time I post, it feels like a complete waste of time. Perhaps you feel the same? I am assuming you have been banned a few times, just for saying the word 'Universalist'. It brings out the hatred in so called 'Christians'.

That is another problem here and most other forums. Christians have no idea in the world what Love means. A God of Love does NOT torment the Unsaved for all of eternity, nor does a God of Love annihilate them. There is another option which the Word of God clearly teaches to those that have the backbone to accept it.

Satan has blinded the Church for thousands of years now. Who knows if Truth will ever prevail.

Good luck OP.

 

[Heart2Soul]

OP. Not sure if you are still reading your thread, but I'll add some more info just in case.

As a Universalist, you are closer to the Truth than most. No one on this forum, as far as I know, understands what Hell and the Lake of Fire Truly is.

All I can do is point folks to the Door. They have to walk through. I can not do it for them.

Almost every time I post, it feels like a complete waste of time. Perhaps you feel the same? I am assuming you have been banned a few times, just for saying the word 'Universalist'. It brings out the hatred in so called 'Christians'.

That is another problem here and most other forums. Christians have no idea in the world what Love means. A God of Love does NOT torment the Unsaved for all of eternity, nor does a God of Love annihilate them. There is another option which the Word of God clearly teaches to those that have the backbone to accept it.

Satan has blinded the Church for thousands of years now. Who knows if Truth will ever prevail.

Good luck OP.

Why do we have to label ourselves? Can we simply be believers and followers of Christ without separating our specific doctrine from others?
We all grow in the wisdom and knowledge of His truth at different times and different speeds...it's as the Holy Spirit, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, deems when we are ready for a deeper revelation of His Truth...
No man need teach me anything...the Holy Spirit will teach me and guide into all truth.....below the scriptures warn about seducing spirits...and it says who will teach us if we abide in Him...
1 John 2 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
²⁴ Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
²⁵ And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
²⁶ These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
²⁷ But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Sorry, brother, I am not picking on you but I did get a little pricked about what you said concerning hell and the lake of fire. So you have been given the revelation knowledge of it...and others haven't...I am sure in time He will reveal it to everyone as well...don't you?

 

[Truther]

Anyone?

What new extra Biblical religion is that?

 

[Truther]

OP. Not sure if you are still reading your thread, but I'll add some more info just in case.

As a Universalist, you are closer to the Truth than most. No one on this forum, as far as I know, understands what Hell and the Lake of Fire Truly is.

All I can do is point folks to the Door. They have to walk through. I can not do it for them.

Almost every time I post, it feels like a complete waste of time. Perhaps you feel the same? I am assuming you have been banned a few times, just for saying the word 'Universalist'. It brings out the hatred in so called 'Christians'.

That is another problem here and most other forums. Christians have no idea in the world what Love means. A God of Love does NOT torment the Unsaved for all of eternity, nor does a God of Love annihilate them. There is another option which the Word of God clearly teaches to those that have the backbone to accept it.

Satan has blinded the Church for thousands of years now. Who knows if Truth will ever prevail.

Good luck OP.

A "God of love" does not destroy the world by a flood, Sodom etc?

You must be speaking of cupid on Valentines day?

 

[Truther]

A God of love will let Adolph Hitler, Pol Pot, Ghengis Khan, etc into heaven...no hard feelings?