Help with John 12:32

[Behold]

We are chosen! The doctrine of election is sound.

God does not choose you or cause you to trust in Christ.
He requries that we believe, and "our faith is counted by God, as Righteousness"..

The apparent paradox is in your limited perception. We see with blurry vision when it comes to the foreknowledge of God.

You are A mind owned Calvinist telling a Christian that they have blurry vision?

Look in the mirror, as its your spiritual and theological glasses that are DARK.

Calvin is just some Heretic who created a NT denying 500 yrs old theology.
God never told anyone to believe it., as God is not a Calvinist.

No, in Romans 1, God says they are "without excuse" and so God gave them over, let them go. If He let them go, obviously these are not His sheep and He is not drawing them to Christ.

Jesus said.....>"if i be lifted up on the Cross, i will DRAW all people to me"..

So, All people are excluded from any excuse that they would try to use to justifiy their Christ Rejection.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Romans 1:18-25

Your verses are defining "secularism"......or.... "of the world".

Its man claiming that the only Truth is """" whatever i choose to believe"""

"truth is relative".

"situation ethics".

 

[Hiddenthings]

His sheep began with the house of Israel, then after His mission and Pentecost, it spread throughout the world. We were grafted into to the Vine and are His sheep.
In Romams 11, Paul differentiates Israel with the Gentiles and states that in the end times, when Jesus returns, a remnant of the Jews (Israel) will be saved and they will be grafted into the Body as well. They were blinded for a purpose and so God will lift their veil and they will realize who their Messiah had been all along. And the will mourn when they see Him.

The great secret! Few know about these matters but a thorough understanding of Isaiah 59 is a good start.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

God does not choose you or cause you to trust in Christ.

Did not say He causes us to trust, but we are all born spiritually blind. We cannot remove this blindness ourselves. He enables us to see spiritually.

You are A mind owned Calvinist telling a Christian that they have blurry vision?

I am not a Calvinist and if you knew me, you would know I argue against TULIP.

We can believe in predestination without adopting TULIP!

The Doctrine of Election has caused confusion and division.
Simply, God has predestined us to be saved.
Elect means chosen, determined beforehand, ordained before time.

Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” 2 Timothy 1:9
>> According to a His purpose and plan. He designed a perfect plan _ in the beginning. A plan like an architectural blueprint contains all the details before it is built and carried out. It is not an open-ended, create as you go, plan.
That said, it appears that way to us; as we pridefully think our destiny is in our hands and we are the directors of our own reality and that life is what we make it. This spiritual destiny of all can't be subject to our sinful state, our countless errors; for He would have to fix
redraft, crumple up the blueprint, chuck it in the trash and start over. And since our lives intertwine, when we look back, we see how events developed, were guided and led to that divine appointment had to be perfect, fixed. One false move, a fork on the road, where we decided to go changes everything.
I love "It's A Wonderful Life" because George Baily sees an alternate reality of his town if he hadn't been born. He did 't realize that he was tied to so much good that just wouldn't happen if he wasn't born. God predestined George, though he wanted to leave many times, to stay with the Building and Loan, in that town, live out his life, bless all those people and thwart the forces of Satan's evil and greedy Mr. Potter.

God's sovereignty can't be subject to man's billions of errors, ignorance and spiritual state - which is lost.

Galatians 1:15-16 But even before I was born, God chose me and called me by his marvelous grace. Then it pleased him to reveal his Son to me so that I would proclaim the Good News about Jesus to the Gentiles.

Isaiah 43:10 “But you are my witnesses, O Israel!” says the Lord. “You are my servant. You have been chosen to know me, believe in me, and understand that I alone am God. There is no other God— there never has been, and there never will be.

However, those the Father has given me will come to me, and I will never reject them.
John 6:37
>>The Father had a specific number of sheep that He gave to Jesus - before they actually believed. Only His sheep heard His call. How? They were spiritually equipped, so when summoned, they turned to Him, came, were enlightened and then said, yes Lord.

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
>> There it is _ that word _ foreknowledge. We wrestle with that. We can't conceive of knowing the details of the future, so it confounds us. But our pride kicks in and the magnificent power of our free will. "LIFE IS WHAT WE MAKE IT"! Well, in our physical realm, our efforts do count, what we sow is what we reap. Hard work, education, drive towards achieving goals, jobs, money, worldly success, counts. Yet still, all good things come from God. And spiritual life is not what you make it. After we are saved, good works arebprepared for us and so we are responsible, we willingly cooperate in His plan. How our decisions just happen ti fall within His plan is beyond our understanding.

“So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.” Colossians 3:12-13

“Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness.” Titus 1:1

“But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.” 2 Thessalonians 2:13

“For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 7:7

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
>> It says it all right there. We can't choose to come to Him unless He first draws us. He, through His plan, that involves many people, events and lessons that prepare us, enables us and draws us to Himself and we answer the call.

Romans 8:28-30. And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4-5. just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
>> God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. This is what he wanted to do, and it gave him great pleasure.

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. JOHN 15:16

The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4

Well, there it is. Wrestle with it all you want.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK back to topic...

Any more good arguments against Universal Reconciliation ?

There have been many prominent believers in this camp including C.S. Lewis.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You just posted that God will Judge Christ Rejectors into HELL...., yet You just explained this as God not allowing them to Believe in Jesus.

So, that God, according to that theological insanity, is a cosmic Psychopath.........who sends Christ Rejectors to Hell, who are not allowed to Believe In Jesus.
So that "GOD" wont allow you to trust in Christ and then blames you for your unbelief and damns you for it.

= That is CRAZY theology, that is so Cross Rejecting and Grace denying = that only Satan could have created such a Twisted LIE that is : Hyper=Calvinism.

In the contrary who are you to question what God has determined?

Did Jesus not speak in parables so that only the chosen would understand ???

The Purpose of the Parables​

10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that

“‘they may indeed see but not perceive,
and may indeed hear but not understand,
lest they should turn and be forgiven.’”

 

[Behold]

In the contrary who are you to question what God has determined?

What kind of deceived person would believe that a 500 obo yr old Cult Teaching by a carnal Man who helped cause a Christian to be burned at the Stake........ has to be "of God"?

I assure you that its not of God... so because its not....i do more then question it.......I deny it on forums , i castigate it in public, and i truthfully proclaim it to be a theological cancer on the body of Christ.

Never be the person who believe in that "TULIP" mind control doctrine of devils....., or teaches it.

Did Jesus not speak in parables so that only the chosen would understand ???

The born again are chosen, by being "in Christ"...........So, this means that to be born again, is how you will be chosen.
No one is predestined to be born again, as its "the will of God that everyone believe in Jesus" and not everyone will.... becasuse that is their FREE WILL.

So, to become that "chosen".........you have to give God YOUR FAITH...in Christ., and once you are "in Christ" your are then """"predestined (chosen) to be conformed into the image of Christ"

10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables,

Never use verses aimed at unsaved Jewish Apostles, when you are talking about doctrine for the born again Body of Christ. @Carl Emerson

See, all the born again are already IN The Kingdom of God, and Its IN them.... as the KOG is """righteousness, peace, and Joy, in the Holy Spirit"""".
This means that eternal spiritual union with God, is found IN the believer.. who is also "IN Christ" and "ONE with God".

 

[Carl Emerson]

Clearly you deny the Father the right to choose and in so doing are in danger of judging God.

Jesus was clearly delivering the message of the Father in parables so those not chosen would not hear and not repent. (Mark 4)

 

[Behold]

Clearly you deny the Father the right to choose and in so doing are in danger of judging God.

God does not choose who initially Trusts in Christ....... WE do......as we are the BELIEVER.

That's FREE WILL at work.

Do you not comprehend this because your TULIP has ruined your understanding of John 3:16..... .that is also found here := "ALL who call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved"?

And you are supremely foolish, to insinuate that i might be "judging God" when deceived spiritually infected Calvinists will crawl all over Chrisitan Forums, and proudly stand right up in Church Pulpits, and blame GOD for the Devil's work, by accusing God of "causing evil" because they are taught by Heretics to believe this, LIE.

Let me explain something... to you @Carl Emerson

If God is causing Evil, and the Devil is causing Evil, then they are the same.

So be careful with that one verse that you want to use, that you do not comprehend.......lest YOU be found as God's Judge.

Jesus was clearly delivering the message of the Father in parables so those not chosen would not hear and not repent. (Mark 4)

God would not be so stupid to Choose someone to become a Christian, and they refuse it......as God's Foreknowleget would be ahead of this, and so He would never do that.....not ever.

Jesus told you........that "If i be Lifted up.. (on the Cross), i will Draw ALL people to me"........ so, The Cross is still doing that tomorrow.......and when we "preach the Gospel" that is to "preach the Cross" we are "lifting up Jesus".. and so, the unsaved world is always being CALLED to come to Jesus by Faith.
God knew who will and who wont before they are born, but that is God's Foreknowledge that KNOWS.............vs, Calvin's "predestined" nonsense that denies The Cross by Limiting the Cross as the demonic Hyper Calvinism teaching of "Limited Atonement'.

 

[Behold]

OK back to topic...

Any more good arguments against Universal Reconciliation ?

God's Salvation is predicated on "Beleive in Jesus"... As Jesus Himself said so...when He said...."if you believe not, then you shall die in your sins".. and He said, that its by ""BELIEVING"" In Him, that He will give us "Eternal Life". and we "shall never perish". (never go to hell).

God denies "universalsim" by telling us that our "FAITH is required.....so that it can be "counted by GOD as Righteouness".

2 Thess 1:8-9 (KJV) says that Holy Jesus Himself is coming back to take firey Vengenace upon ALL who do not OBEY = THE GOSPEL....

How do you "Obey the Gospel??

= You BELIEVE IT... on this earth, while you are still BREATHING.

So, any theology, or "gospel" that omits this.......is : Galatians 1:8

 

[Carl Emerson]

God does not choose who initially Trusts in Christ....... WE do......as we are the BELIEVER.

That's FREE WILL at work.

Do you not comprehend this because your TULIP has ruined your understanding of John 3:16..... .that is also found here := "ALL who call on the name of Jesus, shall be saved"?

And you are supremely foolish, to insinuate that i might be "judging God" when deceived spiritually infected Calvinists will crawl all over Chrisitan Forums, and proudly stand right up in Church Pulpits, and blame GOD for the Devil's work, by accusing God of "causing evil" because they are taught by Heretics to believe this, LIE.

Let me explain something... to you @Carl Emerson

If God is causing Evil, and the Devil is causing Evil, then they are the same.

So be careful with that one verse that you want to use, that you do not comprehend.......lest YOU be found as God's Judge.



God would not be so stupid to Choose someone to become a Christian, and they refuse it......as God's Foreknowleget would be ahead of this, and so He would never do that.....not ever.

Jesus told you........that "If i be Lifted up.. (on the Cross), i will Draw ALL people to me"........ so, The Cross is still doing that tomorrow.......and when we "preach the Gospel" that is to "preach the Cross" we are "lifting up Jesus".. and so, the unsaved world is always being CALLED to come to Jesus by Faith.
God knew who will and who wont before they are born, but that is God's Foreknowledge that KNOWS.............vs, Calvin's "predestined" nonsense that denies The Cross by Limiting the Cross as the demonic Hyper Calvinism teaching of "Limited Atonement'.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.”

 

[Helen]

The Greek doesn't say "all men", it doesn't say all of what; it just says "all". The translators added "men" or "people" to try to make sense of it. And in doing so, they may have unintentionally created a different context for the quote.

The context is the current prince of this world being kicked out (verse 31), so "I will draw all to myself" may mean Messiah will consolidate EVERYTHING and EVERYBODY under His rule when He has been glorified.

Good post .

when we read it in context , I believe that it is *all judgement that is being spoken about if we read it in that chapter .

just a thought …

 

[Behold]

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.”

"chosen IN HIM">.

You are leaving out the context.

We are chosen for what?

A.) "To be conformed into the Image of Christ.........."chosen"..........IN HIM">. that is "IN CHRIST".. so you have to get there first to be IN HIM.......to then become "predestined to be conformed into"..

See, the predestining, is the """"conforming""""........that happens after you are "IN HIM"... (IN Christ)........ but the Hyper Calvinism Tulip teaching is that you are predestined to believe, initially.
The conforming is to get your NEW BODY, and so forth.....so you have to be "IN HIM"......."IN Christ" for that to happen later, as its Predestined to happen AFTER we are "IN CHRIST"

God requires our Faith.., and He does not cause us to have faith, as that would not satisfy His own requirement that WE ARE THE BELIEVER.........and we are not truly, if God caused it.

See, Crazy Calvinism, is built on one ERROR.......and its this..

John Calvinism evolved and then REDEFINED..>>"God's Foreknowledge"..as "God predestined it all".

See that? So, we know that "God's Foreknowledge" is God knowing everying that is going to happen next = BE-FORE it happens.
That is "God's Fore-knowledge".

So what Calvin did and what His Disciples later did as Hyper Calvinism.......is they redefined "God's Foreknowledge" as "God predestined it all".

That the core rot...the demonic Lie that is the root of this Satanic Theology.

See that error?.......so, once they redefined "Foreknowing" as "pre-destining" then they just....... predestined everything in Christianity, when God doesn't.

And they had to do one other thing to try to make this demonic doctrine seem to work........and that is...they got rid of Free Will.........so, if you dont have free will then this "doctrine of devils' is able to seem to prove that you can't have faith... (too depraved,) so, God has to predestine you to have it........= cause you to believe.

Its all false.
Its all a lie.

 

[Origen]

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

In Jn. 12:31-32, Jesus said that the judgement of this world takes place now, and that the Prince of Darkness is about to be driven out. And, that when He has been lifted up (raised up on the cross of pain, on the Cross of salvation), He will draw everybody to Himself (redeem mankind), because that is how the Son of Man will save. This is confirmed by v. 33: "He said this, signifying by what kind of death He should die." (PV5, N45-50)

 

[David Lamb]

That's just plain ignorance.

I am sorry you consider me to be ignorant of the bible. I readily admit that my knowledge of the Scriptures is far from perfect - I don't think anybody would claim that they knew and understood God's word perfectly.

The bible teaches it all over the place.

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Ti 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

2 Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

I am not ignorant of those verses you quote. I just understand them differently to the way you understand them. If those verses really meant that Jesus Christ died for every single person who ever existed, then that would mean that the bible contradicts itself, because elsewhere we read that Jesus died for the sheep:

“"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.” (Joh 10:11 NKJV)

Shortly after saying that, He told some of His hearers that they were not His sheep:

“"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.” (Joh 10:26 NKJV)

Now, if He had said it the other way round, and said, "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe," then we could believe that we become Christ's sheep by believing. But He doesn't. Rather, He says that the reason they do not believe is because they are not of Hois sheep.

We also have verses which say that Jesus Christ actually saves sinners - He doesn't just make salvation a possibility, For example:

“"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."” (Mt 1:21 NKJV)

“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.” (1Ti 1:15 NKJV)

So to hold your view, it seems that you either must believe that everybody who ever existed will eventually be saved, or that Christ died for some who are not saved.

If I was a "lone voice" in holding such beliefs, I would wonder if I had really got it right, but I find that the same beliefs were held by the men who formulated many of the historic statements of faith, such as the Westminster Confession of Faith and the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, and also by many great men of God like Whitfield, Spurgeon and Martin Lloyd Jones. (However I believe them because I see them in Scripture, not because historical figures believed them).

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.

Absolutely correct. In fact "lifted up" means being crucified. Christ's Death not only means Grace and Righteousness to those "He offered up Himself" for, but Judgement and Law for all and everyone, for both those eternally saved, and for those eternally condemned : by the very condemnation and death He had taken upon Himself on Calvary. Jesus not only "for this came into the world", for to be Crucified and be Sacrifice Himself and be the Priest who brings The Offering. "The Word became flesh" so as to deal with sin, with unrighteousness, and with the unrighteous. But He came : "God's Eternal Purpose", to be Victor, The Risen, "This Selfsame Jesus", Spotless Lamb of God, "Standing upon the Mount", "Lifted High, First Sheaf Offering Waved, Before the LORD" : The LORD offering The LORD Praises and Glory.
"O that I may know Him - Christ Alive - and Him Crucified!"
"By the Power of His Resurrection"... that was what it meant when Jesus said in the pivotal moment at the Heart in the Innermost Sanctuary of the Good News of Jesus Christ" and Salvation through Him, "Lifted Up".

 

[Carl Emerson]

In Jn. 12:31-32, Jesus said that the judgement of this world takes place now, and that the Prince of Darkness is about to be driven out. And, that when He has been lifted up (raised up on the cross of pain, on the Cross of salvation), He will draw everybody to Himself (redeem mankind), because that is how the Son of Man will save. This is confirmed by v. 33: "He said this, signifying by what kind of death He should die." (PV5, N45-50)

Will all repent in this life then ?

 

[Kokyu]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.

When it comes to understanding Scripture, immediate context is king.

John 12:27-33 (NASB)
27 "Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
28 "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."
29 So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him."
30 Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.
31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

I can't see that the immediate context of John 12:32 confirms a universalist perspective on the verse. As has been pointed out, "men" is not in the ancient manuscripts of the verse, only "all" (Gk. pas). Christ's focus was upon his sacrificial, redeeming death (Jn. 1:29; 3:16), not upon the idea that all - repentant or not - would be saved. His sacrifice would be sufficient for all to be saved but efficacious only for those who would humble themselves and, by faith, avail themselves of the benefits of it (1 Co. 1:30; 2 Co. 5:21; Eph. 2:1-9).

In any case, there are many explicit verses that flatly deny a universalist view of the Atonement.

Matthew 7:13-14 (NASB)
13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

John 3:36 (NASB)
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Matthew 25:41-46 (NASB)
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Romans 6:23 (NASB)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (NASB)
7 ...the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

And so on. However we want to understand John 8:32, these passages (and many others besides) deny a universalist construction of Jesus's words.

 

[bdavidc]

Universalism is gaining popularity and a pivotal verse is John 12:32.

ESV
And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Can folks suggest what was meant by John in this verse please.

My thoughts are that He was prophesied to be the ultimate stumbling stone - one from whom no one could hide.

Judgement therefore amounts to Him weighing every mans response, in this life, to Himself (Jesus) witnessed to all men through the Gospel and/or through creation itself.

This is done through the work of the Holy Spirit who convicts the WORLD of sin, righteousness and judgement.

Your thoughts appreciated.

Jesus claimed in John 12:32 that through His crucifixion He will attract people from all backgrounds to Himself. Verse 33 clarifies His statement by indicating the type of death He would face. Jesus does not promise universal salvation for every person but declares His death will attract every type of person to Himself regardless of their background. This fits the context of the Gospel going beyond Israel to the whole world, as seen in verses like Revelation 5: Jesus receives praise for redeeming people from every kind of people group including different nations and languages.

Scriptural references to "all" typically mean all groups or categories rather than every single person. For instance, in Luke 2: The taxation of “all the world” applied specifically to the Roman Empire rather than the entire global population. Similarly, in John 6: According to John 6:44 Jesus explained that people cannot reach Him without divine drawing from the Father who sent Him, which indicates that God initiates this drawing process and only those who show faith will achieve salvation. This matches what Jesus said earlier in John 3: Anyone who puts their faith in him will escape judgment yet those who reject him face condemnation now.

Scripture explicitly refutes the notion of universal salvation while acknowledging Jesus as the final judge who evaluates each person's response to Him. Jesus said in Matthew 7: The Bible reveals through Matthew 7:13–14 that the path to salvation is narrow and only a few manage to find it. Revelation 20: According to Revelation 20:15 those not listed in the book of life face eternal separation as they are cast into the lake of fire. The Holy Spirit does convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment (John 16:8), but conviction does not equal salvation. A great number of people reject the Spirit and choose darkness over light according to John 3:19.

Universalism enjoys popularity among people yet remains an incorrect belief. The Bible is clear: The Bible teaches us that faith in Jesus Christ is the sole path to salvation. Acts 4: The cross would be pointless if everyone were destined for salvation because Jesus' warnings about hell would become meaningless. Not everyone will achieve salvation but belief guarantees it for those who accept it. We must maintain our position based on this message.

 

[bdavidc]

The modern age sees universalism as one of Satan's most powerful deceptions. The doctrine tells followers what their physical nature desires to hear because it denies the need for repentance and claims sin is unimportant while promising universal salvation regardless of beliefs or actions. The teaching opposes every principle taught in the Gospel.

The scripture reveals Jesus’ actual teaching as “Enter ye in at the strait gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction and many there be which go in thereat” (Matthew 7:13). Satan is crafty. He doesn’t require open worship from people but wants them to follow a false teaching that eliminates the need for repentance and faith in Christ while denying eternal judgment. Universalism does exactly that.

According to John 8: The Bible describes Satan as both a deceiver and the originator of all lies. He twists Scripture the same way he did in the garden (Genesis 3: Universalism suggests people will avoid divine judgment even without accepting Jesus. Hebrews 9: Hebrews 9:27 declares that men are destined to die once followed by judgment and it confirms there will be no second opportunity. There is no post-death salvation. The Bible presents no evidence to support the assertion that everyone will ultimately achieve salvation.

Universalism weakens religious fervor while extinguishing evangelical efforts and causes people to face God unprepared. It is not loving, it is lethal. Satan employs this tactic to pull people towards eternal destruction whilst persuading them they choose the correct path. Jesus declared that all will face destruction unless they repent as mentioned in Luke 13:3. The truth remains constant even when lies appear very tempting.

 

[shepherdsword]

I am sorry you consider me to be ignorant of the bible. I readily admit that my knowledge of the Scriptures is far from perfect - I don't think anybody would claim that they knew and understood God's word perfectly.

I consider you ignorant of the fact that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world...just as the scripture explicitly states

I am not ignorant of those verses you quote. I just understand them differently to the way you understand them.

You can't dismiss the numerous scriptures that prove your error with a simple "I understand them differently. Let's hear you explain what you think they mean

If those verses really meant that Jesus Christ died for every single person who ever existed, then that would mean that the bible contradicts itself, because elsewhere we read that Jesus died for the sheep:

“"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.” (Joh 10:11 NKJV)

Shortly after saying that, He told some of His hearers that they were not His sheep:

“"But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.” (Joh 10:26 NKJV)

You see a contradiction where none exists. Jesus stating he will die for the sheep doesn't negate the fact He died for the whole world. If He meant the sheep only then that's where the contradiction would lie.

Now, if He had said it the other way round, and said, "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe," then we could believe that we become Christ's sheep by believing. But He doesn't. Rather, He says that the reason they do not believe is because they are not of Hois sheep.

We also have verses which say that Jesus Christ actually saves sinners - He doesn't just make salvation a possibility, For example:

“"And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."” (Mt 1:21 NKJV)

“This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.” (1Ti 1:15 NKJV)

Once again, a nonsensical injection of a contradiction where none exists

So to hold your view, it seems that you either must believe that everybody who ever existed will eventually be saved, or that Christ died for some who are not saved.

The fact that the scripture teaches that He did die for the whole world and not all are saved proves He died for some who will refuse the gift.

If I was a "lone voice" in holding such beliefs, I would wonder if I had really got it right, but I find that the same beliefs were held by the men who formulated many of the historic statements of faith, such as the Westminster Confession of Faith and the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, and also by many great men of God like Whitfield, Spurgeon and Martin Lloyd Jones. (However I believe them because I see them in Scripture, not because historical figures believed them).

This is a classic fallacy of logic called "the appeal to authority" just because they believed it is true doesn't make it so. What you need to do is prove that the scriptures I posted do not mean what I say they mean and stop dodging them by presenting some you think contradict them