Homosexuality: Is it the way a person is born?

[pom2014]

What man allows is seldom in keeping with The King.

 

[LightMessenger]

Light just because your brain is wired to spread your genetic code over the lands doesn't mean you should.

This is why we are ethical animals, not merely animals.

We walk on two legs not on four.

You continued insistence on letting your genitals be free to do what they will shows me its an issue with remaining an old wineskin filled with old wine.

But you're part of a vast group of Christendom.
Old wine bibers very happy with their habit.

pom, talk about 'genitals' began here long before I stepped in to discuss and equalize the situation. The penchant, on the part of some, to highly criticize others before looking to their own sins and of those like them is very telling and speaks volumes about their hate and disdain for the teachings of Jesus Christ who taught us to Love One Another Unconditionally. There is no love present where hate prevails in such postings.

"As to homosexuals who cannot marry, that may all soon change in the 50 states after a favorable SCOTUS ruling let's not forget. May God guide the conservative Supreme Court to bring equality to this issue for those whose rights have been so suppressed and marginalized."

Since when did God's laws change to conform to man-made laws???

And since every country has its own set of marital laws, we cannot assume that American marriage laws are in keeping with God's. That would imply that Christians in other countries where laws are different are sinning unless they obey US marital laws!

It is obvious that some are equating a state-issued marriage license with honoring God's definition of marriage, and I'm not so sure we can do that. The reason why a couple gets a marriage license is to form a gov't-recognized legal corporation called a "family" for tax and civil purposes. God's view of marriage is why people get a license, THEN get a minister to officiate the vows of fidelity. That is not a redundant act, ya know...

God presides over the real act of marriage, not the states.

You are very correct in that it is not the states' right to preside over marriage equality. That is why Federal Court after Federal Court including the Appellate Courts have ruled to declare unconstitutional all state laws that deny a person the right to equality in marriage under the Fourteenth Amendment's Equal Protection Clause. There can be no doubt that God has placed the Federal government in charge of overseeing the bigotry and discrimination brought forth by the states concerning this issue. Majorities in the states vote to deny the civil and human rights of minorities such as the LGBT community and that is nothing less than bigotry and discrimination. That is why the Federal government, under God's direction, has been formed in order to come and equalize that inequity.

 

[DogLady19]

You are very correct in that it is not the states' right to preside over marriage equality. That is why Federal Court after Federal Court including the Appellate Courts have ruled to declare unconstitutional all state laws that deny a person the right to equality in marriage under the Fourteenth Amendment's Equal Protection Clause. There can be no doubt that God has placed the Federal government in charge of overseeing the bigotry and discrimination brought forth by the states concerning this issue. Majorities in the states vote to deny the civil and human rights of minorities such as the LGBT community and that is nothing less than bigotry and discrimination. That is why the Federal government, under God's direction, has been formed in order to come and equalize that inequity.

That's not accurate. The 14th Amendment did not abridge any of the rights protected in the 10th Amendment. The privilege of marriage is 100% under the perview of the states. That's why in some states, 15 year olds can marry without parental consent, and in some states, one can marry a 2nd cousin, for instance. Denying 15 year old 2nd cousins the right to a marriage license is not a violation of the 14th Amendment, nor is denying the right for two people of the same sex to marry.

This is a matter of legal interpretation... and the People have the right, at any time, to clarify this even once the supreme Court has given an opinion. If we don't like the law, or how it is being enforced or protected, we can change it any time.

That is why the Federal government, under God's direction, has been formed in order to come and equalize that inequity.

Let's also look at that last statement you made. Since every country has a different high court and different interpretations of "equality" who is to say which one is "under God's direction"?

 

[LightMessenger]

That's not accurate. The 14th Amendment did not abridge any of the rights protected in the 10th Amendment. The privilege of marriage is 100% under the perview of the states. That's why in some states, 15 year olds can marry without parental consent, and in some states, one can marry a 2nd cousin, for instance. Denying 15 year old 2nd cousins the right to a marriage license is not a violation of the 14th Amendment, nor is denying the right for two people of the same sex to marry.

This is a matter of legal interpretation... and the People have the right, at any time, to clarify this even once the supreme Court has given an opinion. If we don't like the law, or how it is being enforced or protected, we can change it any time.

Let's also look at that last statement you made. Since every country has a different high court and different interpretations of "equality" who is to say which one is "under God's direction"?

If children, who obviously are not responsible adults as same-sex couples seeking marriage are, can marry other children simply because the states allow for it is that the prudent thing to allow them to do especially when after marriage that child will also be having a child? What kind of message are we sending to our children? That is why the states must not have the final say on marriage and must be overruled by the Federal Courts and government.

As to the Fourteenth Amendment, many states Do Abridge the right of a Same-Sex Couple to marry! That is why plaintiffs have had to go to court to fight the unfairness in their rights being destroyed and violated by states that hold that marriage is only between a man and a woman. The overwhelming rulings by the Federal and Appellate Courts is that it is unconstitutional to ban same-sex marriage therefore, have overturned laws in most all states that have such bigotry and discrimination against the LGBT community where marriage is concerned.

As for other countries' laws on marriage, that is completely irrelevant and immaterial to our laws here in America. Their laws do not dictate one iota to our laws and vice-versa. God always prevails in matters of inequality for the people whom He has created.

As for the SCOTUS ruling on Same-Sex Marriage, they are the highest Federal Court in the land and their decision is Final Law effective for and applied to all of the 50 states. FYI, there is no further appellate court to go to in order to try to change or remove the Supreme Court's ruling. So your assertion that if we don't like their ruling it can be changed at any time is quite incorrect. It cannot be changed. Your side may not like it or the opposing side may not like it depending on what the ruling is but we are nevertheless bound to it and will have to honor it as the New Law of the Land and that ruling is coming this June.

 

[DogLady19]

If children, who obviously are not responsible adults as same-sex couples seeking marriage are, can marry other children simply because the states allow for it is that the prudent thing to allow them to do especially when after marriage that child will also be having a child? What kind of message are we sending to our children? That is why the states must not have the final say on marriage and must be overruled by the Federal Courts and government.

As to the Fourteenth Amendment, many states Do Abridge the right of a Same-Sex Couple to marry! That is why plaintiffs have had to go to court to fight the unfairness in their rights being destroyed and violated by states that hold that marriage is only between a man and a woman. The overwhelming rulings by the Federal and Appellate Courts is that it is unconstitutional to ban same-sex marriage therefore, have overturned laws in most all states that have such bigotry and discrimination against the LGBT community where marriage is concerned.

As for other countries' laws on marriage, that is completely irrelevant and immaterial to our laws here in America. Their laws do not dictate one iota to our laws and vice-versa. God always prevails in matters of inequality for the people whom He has created.

As for the SCOTUS ruling on Same-Sex Marriage, they are the highest Federal Court in the land and their decision is Final Law effective for and applied to all of the 50 states. FYI, there is no further appellate court to go to in order to try to change or remove the Supreme Court's ruling. So your assertion that if we don't like their ruling it can be changed at any time is quite incorrect. It cannot be changed. Your side may not like it or the opposing side may not like it depending on what the ruling is but we are nevertheless bound to it and will have to honor it as the New Law of the Land and that ruling is coming this June.

1) You are assuming that a 15 year old is a "child" just because US laws say that they are for certain things... They can be considered adults if they commit murder or rape. They can be emancipated. They have reproductive rights just like adults do... And the concept of a teenager being a child is actually very recent in US society. They have been treated as adults for most of our nation's history. Another thing to consider is the age of Mary when she was a. engaged to be married and; b. giving birth to her first child. Most scholars believe she was around 15 years old when that happened. And God not only let it happen, He made it happen!

2) You are assuming that the 14th Amendment covers marriage. That is a matter of interpretation. If it was clear that it did, the supreme Court would not be discussing it.

3) You are correct that other countries have no bearing on US laws... that is why it is dangerous to think that God prevails over our laws of equality and not those of other countries where He also has people that He created. Since the laws are different from one country to the next, you are implying that God is wishy-washy, and we know that He is not.

4) God's laws never change. Man's laws do... God is all about equality, not sameness. God does NOT treat all of us the same while He most certainly treats us as equals. Treating everyone the same would create INequality.

As for the SCOTUS ruling on Same-Sex Marriage, they are the highest Federal Court in the land and their decision is Final Law effective for and applied to all of the 50 states. FYI, there is no further appellate court to go to in order to try to change or remove the Supreme Court's ruling. So your assertion that if we don't like their ruling it can be changed at any time is quite incorrect. It cannot be changed. Your side may not like it or the opposing side may not like it depending on what the ruling is but we are nevertheless bound to it and will have to honor it as the New Law of the Land and that ruling is coming this June.

PS: Show me in the Constitution that a supreme Court's rulings are "final" and prevent any further Amendment process from happening at a later date.

Appellate courts are to further interpret an existing law... but ALL laws can be changed, abolished, and nullified by the People at any given time. The People in a republic are the final say, not the courts. Once the law is abolished or changed, the supreme Court's decision about that law becomes moot.

 

[StanJ]

Today, as I read your words filled with vitriol against the truth, God gave unto me a passage from the Holy Bible that I heard Him say I should bring forth unto you and others who think as you do.

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." -- MATTHEW 5:11 (KJV)​

Another sign of a false teacher is thinking THEY are the persecuted because others condemn their teaching. You don't post for Jesus' sake you post for your own aberrant lifestyle of some other perverted reason that we're not aware of. I welcome God saying "Well done, good and faithful servant", to me and all who obey His word.
Apparently you will not be among those that hear that unless you rent from your self.

 

[LightMessenger]

1) You are assuming that a 15 year old is a "child" just because US laws say that they are for certain things... They can be considered adults if they commit murder or rape. They can be emancipated. They have reproductive rights just like adults do... And the concept of a teenager being a child is actually very recent in US society. They have been treated as adults for most of our nation's history. Another thing to consider is the age of Mary when she was a. engaged to be married and; b. giving birth to her first child. Most scholars believe she was around 15 years old when that happened. And God not only let it happen, He made it happen!

2) You are assuming that the 14th Amendment covers marriage. That is a matter of interpretation. If it was clear that it did, the supreme Court would not be discussing it.

3) You are correct that other countries have no bearing on US laws... that is why it is dangerous to think that God prevails over our laws of equality and not those of other countries where He also has people that He created. Since the laws are different from one country to the next, you are implying that God is wishy-washy, and we know that He is not.

4) God's laws never change. Man's laws do... God is all about equality, not sameness. God does NOT treat all of us the same while He most certainly treats us as equals. Treating everyone the same would create INequality.

PS: Show me in the Constitution that a supreme Court's rulings are "final" and prevent any further Amendment process from happening at a later date.

Appellate courts are to further interpret an existing law... but ALL laws can be changed, abolished, and nullified by the People at any given time. The People in a republic are the final say, not the courts. Once the law is abolished or changed, the supreme Court's decision about that law becomes moot.

1) Please do not be so naive such as to confuse the Divine mission of The Holy Spirit through Mary, the Mother of Jesus, with the common young adolescent girl in today's society who wants to marry.

2) Federal Court after Federal court has ruled that the 14th Amendment denies equal rights to the LGBT community thus, they have overturned state laws that discriminate against that community. The SCOTUS has even upheld those rulings many times by allowing a lower court ruling to stand that favored Gay marriage.

3) Do not attempt to speak to what I am saying about God. I never said or implied that God is "wishy-washy." Know and understand that. What I did say is the following which is quite different from what you are saying.

"God always prevails in matters of inequality for the people whom He has created."

4) Therefore, since God treats everyone as equals, why does man not do the same?

About your PS True, it would certainly take a majority in Congress to try to overturn a U.S. Supreme Court ruling. However, now that public opinion on the matter is so great In Favor of Same-Sex Marriage it would be highly unlikely that would happen and could even be devastating to those who would consider such a move in Congress. But it is a shame to think that people would want to even consider such a thing in order to hold on to their prejudice, intolerance, and discrimination against a group of citizens such as LGBT citizens who work, who pay their taxes like any other American, who go to church to worship, who have or adopt children to add to their family, and who proudly go into the military to serve their country with love and great pride putting themselves in harm's way in the process in order that we may maintain our freedom. It would indeed be a great shame to deny those citizens the rights they are fully entitled to including full marriage of which they are most deserving of.

Another sign of a false teacher is thinking THEY are the persecuted because others condemn their teaching. You don't post for Jesus' sake you post for your own aberrant lifestyle of some other perverted reason that we're not aware of. I welcome God saying "Well done, good and faithful servant", to me and all who obey His word.
Apparently you will not be among those that hear that unless you rent from your self.

Your diatribes are so

and not at all related to the loving teachings of Jesus Christ. You are either with Jesus or you are against Him as there is no middle ground. If you therefore want to remain as part of an Anti-Christ group with your thinking and actions you are free to do so but I will remain with Jesus and His teachings to Love One Another Unconditionally, that is, without any conditions.

 

[DogLady19]

Another sign of a false teacher is thinking THEY are the persecuted because others condemn their teaching. You don't post for Jesus' sake you post for your own aberrant lifestyle of some other perverted reason that we're not aware of. I welcome God saying "Well done, good and faithful servant", to me and all who obey His word.
Apparently you will not be among those that hear that unless you rent from your self.

You don't speak for Jesus either. We all sin, and Jesus had to die for sexual sins as much as He had to die for someone stealing a piece of candy. I find your comment to be arrogant and judgmental. God is not pleased with that kind of behavior either... Instead of bringing this brother back with love, you have chosen to make sure he closes his mind to anything you have to say, even if you quote scripture.

Galatians 6"1 says "...if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently." You are not being gentle!

"God always prevails in matters of inequality for the people whom He has created."

Where is that in the Bible?

And you haven't shown me yet where the Constitution says that once the supreme Court has made an opinion over a law, it is final and the People cannot change it.

Cite your sources, please.

 

[pom2014]

Light,

God does not love unconditionally.
No one does, not even animals.

This is an idealist view of love it is unhealthy and unrealistic.

Every one loves with conditions, including God.

 

[DogLady19]

Light,

God does not love unconditionally.
No one does, not even animals.

This is an idealist view of love it is unhealthy and unrealistic.

Every one loves with conditions, including God.

How is God's love not unconditional? He does not hate us because we sin. He does not hate us if we mock Him, blaspheme, molest children, kill babies, or worship the devil...

God is love. It's His nature. John 3:16 doesn't say "For God so loved certain parts of world, the rest He hates."

Under what conditions does God stop loving a person???

Of course, sin will separate us from God. We can choose to obey Him and be His disciples and His bride... But I don't think scripture supports the idea that God will stop loving me because of something I do or refuse to do. None of us deserve to be loved by Him. The price to pay for sin is more than we can pay. It is impossible for any of us to earn God's love... it can't be conditional, or Jesus would have died in vain.

 

[StanJ]

Light,
God does not love unconditionally.
No one does, not even animals.
This is an idealist view of love it is unhealthy and unrealistic.
Every one loves with conditions, including God.

Sorry POM but there are NO conditions we have to or can meet for God to love us, He just does. There are conditions for salvation, but not for God's love. Rom 5:8

 

[pom2014]

If you do not obey him what happens?

Does he still love you and say its ok you're disobedient you can still go to heaven.

 

[DogLady19]

If you do not obey him what happens?

Does he still love you and say its ok you're disobedient you can still go to heaven.

No. God even loves disobedient people. He sent His Son to die while were still sinners. Loving someone doesn't mean you don't let them experience the consequences of their choices.

The Bible does not say that everyone God loves will go to Heaven.

 

[pom2014]

Killing your disobedient child is not unconditional love.

Love always comes with conditions or else its ripe for abuse. It'd dysfunctional and unhealthy.

Sorry but even God has terms or he will destroy us.

 

[DogLady19]

Killing your disobedient child is not unconditional love.

Love always comes with conditions or else its ripe for abuse. It'd dysfunctional and unhealthy.

Sorry but even God has terms or he will destroy us.

What is dysfunctional and unhealthy is a parent who says they love their kid but protects them from the consequences of disobedience. This "love is always butterflies and fluffy sweetness" is man-made.

God is Love. God is also Justice. There is not a single verse in the bible that says God hates the people he punishes... in fact, the Bible says just the opposite.

But I'm open to be proven wrong. Show me in the Bible where God will hate the people He will throw into Hell.

 

[StanJ]

If you do not obey him what happens?

Does he still love you and say its ok you're disobedient you can still go to heaven.

No pom He punishes you just as parents punish their children. Have you never been a parent?

Killing your disobedient child is not unconditional love.

Love always comes with conditions or else its ripe for abuse. It'd dysfunctional and unhealthy.

Sorry but even God has terms or he will destroy us.

Sometimes you make the most bizarre comments....must be the pom in you?

Love has nothing to do with justice or punishment. Have you never read Heb 12:6?

"For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and he punishes every son he accepts.”


Trust me, as a parent, my love does NOT come with conditions and neither does God's. God's laws and will does not effect His love except that He loved us so much ...read John 3:16

 

[LightMessenger]

You don't speak for Jesus either. We all sin, and Jesus had to die for sexual sins as much as He had to die for someone stealing a piece of candy. I find your comment to be arrogant and judgmental. God is not pleased with that kind of behavior either... Instead of bringing this brother back with love, you have chosen to make sure he closes his mind to anything you have to say, even if you quote scripture.

Galatians 6"1 says "...if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently." You are not being gentle!

Where is that in the Bible?

And you haven't shown me yet where the Constitution says that once the supreme Court has made an opinion over a law, it is final and the People cannot change it.

Cite your sources, please.

Hi DogLady, What I said "God always prevails in matters of inequality for the people whom He has created." is not something that is in Scripture. It is something that just makes good prudent sense as God is the final authority when it comes to inequality. That means, that He will either allow the SCOTUS to rule in favor of S-SM or He will not thereby allowing further things to happen and develop so that mankind can come to an amicable understanding on their own about the matter. Sometimes in the process, however, innocents must suffer.

And about the U.S. Supreme Court's decision being final, it is, unequivocally. It is found under Article 6 of the Supremacy Clause. Basically what it says is just as I've said before that once the SCOTUS makes a ruling, that ruling, in effect, becomes the Law of the Land. If there are states that have different laws regarding what the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled upon those laws cannot stand in the way of the SCOTUS ruling and they must comply with it. There is absolutely no room for wiggling on that otherwise why have the "Highest Court In the Land" to rule as the final entity on matters brought before them.

 

[DogLady19]

Hi DogLady, What I said "God always prevails in matters of inequality for the people whom He has created." is not something that is in Scripture. It is something that just makes good prudent sense as God is the final authority when it comes to inequality. ...

And about the U.S. Supreme Court's decision being final, it is, unequivocally. It is found under Article 6 of the Supremacy Clause. Basically what it says is just as I've said before that once the SCOTUS makes a ruling, that ruling, in effect, becomes the Law of the Land. If there are states that have different laws regarding what the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled upon those laws cannot stand in the way of the SCOTUS ruling and they must comply with it. There is absolutely no room for wiggling on that otherwise why have the "Highest Court In the Land" to rule as the final entity on matters brought before them.

Hi Light Messenger:

First off, if there is no supporting scripture, it isn't truth. "Common sense" is not always Godly... in fact, His ways are higher than our ways.

I would encourage you to look at how God sees equality instead of making assumptions.

Next, the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution only applies if an act of the federal gov't is in pursuit of its own constitutionally authorized powers. To say that federal laws are supreme over all laws would render everything else in the Constitution invalid except the supremacy clause. It simply isn't true. The "supreme law of the land" is federal laws + treaties + the Constitution... The supreme Court is the highest court in the nation, not the "supreme law of the land"...

The federal gov't has enumerated and limited powers authorized to it by the Constitution. Everything else is under the perview of the states and the People who are equally sovereign with the federal gov't. One does not have power over the other.

Bottom line, and I will say it again, the People can and do abolish laws and change laws that have been decided by the supreme Court... and those actions render the SC decisions moot.

The 14th Amendment affords equal protection of existing laws. If gay marriage is not a law in a state, there is nothing for the 14th Amendment to protect. If it is legal, then it must be applied equally to all gay people who wish to be married in that state.

But the Constitution does not protect anyone's perceived right to live in a state that allows them to be married.

Marriage is a privelege, not a right... like driving a car or fishing and hunting... that's why you have to apply for a license to do it... The 14th Amendment protects rights, not state-determined privileges.

 

[LightMessenger]

Hi Light Messenger:

First off, if there is no supporting scripture, it isn't truth. "Common sense" is not always Godly... in fact, His ways are higher than our ways.

I would encourage you to look at how God sees equality instead of making assumptions.

Next, the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution only applies if an act of the federal gov't is in pursuit of its own constitutionally authorized powers. To say that federal laws are supreme over all laws would render everything else in the Constitution invalid except the supremacy clause. It simply isn't true. The "supreme law of the land" is federal laws + treaties + the Constitution... The supreme Court is the highest court in the nation, not the "supreme law of the land"...

The federal gov't has enumerated and limited powers authorized to it by the Constitution. Everything else is under the perview of the states and the People who are equally sovereign with the federal gov't. One does not have power over the other.

Bottom line, and I will say it again, the People can and do abolish laws and change laws that have been decided by the supreme Court... and those actions render the SC decisions moot.

The 14th Amendment affords equal protection of existing laws. If gay marriage is not a law in a state, there is nothing for the 14th Amendment to protect. If it is legal, then it must be applied equally to all gay people who wish to be married in that state.

But the Constitution does not protect anyone's perceived right to live in a state that allows them to be married.

Marriage is a privelege, not a right... like driving a car or fishing and hunting... that's why you have to apply for a license to do it... The 14th Amendment protects rights, not state-determined privileges.

Respectfully, I will disagree with you on both counts. The Supreme Court's ruling IS final. And marriage IS a RIGHT, not a privilege. The following attorney speaks to that and his information is well worth noting.

Is marriage a fundamental right, or is it a privilege?
David Raynor, Startup Attorney at Accelerate Legal

http://www.quora.com/Is-marriage-a-fundamental-right-or-is-it-a-privilege

"It's a fundamental right under the US federal Constitution. See Loving v. Virginia."

 

[zeke25]

How is God's love not unconditional? He does not hate us because we sin. He does not hate us if we mock Him, blaspheme, molest children, kill babies, or worship the devil...

Hello DogLady19,

Possibly you would care to comment on the following:

1 Samuel 15:2-3 KJV, “2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”

Malachi 1:3 KJV, “And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.”

Romans 9:13 KJV, “As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”

Matthew 12:31 KJV, “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.”

I don't know about you, but as an Amalekite, or an Esau, or as a blasphemer (God forbid) of the Holy Ghost, I'm not feeling the love right now.

Zeke25