Homosexuality: Is it the way a person is born?

[soupy]

I think this thread needs a theme song


"Born This Way"

[Intro:]
It doesn't matter if you love him, or capital H-I-M
Just put your paws up
'cause you were born this way, baby

[Verse:]
My mama told me when I was young
We are all born superstars
She rolled my hair and put my lipstick on
In the glass of her boudoir

"There's nothing wrong with loving who you are"
She said, "'Cause he made you perfect, babe"
"So hold your head up girl and you'll go far,
Listen to me when I say"

[Chorus:]
I'm beautiful in my way
'Cause God makes no mistakes
I'm on the right track, baby
I was born this way
Don't hide yourself in regret
Just love yourself and you're set
I'm on the right track, baby
I was born this way

[Post-chorus:]
Oh there ain't no other way
Baby I was born this way
Baby I was born this way
Oh there ain't no other way
Baby I was born this way
I'm on the right track, baby
I was born this way

Don't be a drag ‒ just be a queen [x3]
Don't be!

[Verse:]
Give yourself prudence
And love your friends
Subway kid, rejoice your truth
In the religion of the insecure
I must be myself, respect my youth

A different lover is not a sin
Believe capital H-I-M (Hey hey hey)
I love my life I love this record and
Mi amore vole fe yah (Love needs faith)

[Repeat chorus + post-chorus]

[Bridge:]
Don't be a drag, just be a queen
Whether you're broke or evergreen
You're black, white, beige, chola descent
You're Lebanese, you're orient
Whether life's disabilities
Left you outcast, bullied, or teased
Rejoice and love yourself today
'cause baby you were born this way

No matter gay, straight, or bi,
Lesbian, transgendered life,
I'm on the right track baby,
I was born to survive.
No matter black, white or beige
Chola or orient made,
I'm on the right track baby,
I was born to be brave.

[Repeat chorus + post-chorus]

[Outro/refrain:]
I was born this way hey!
I was born this way hey!
I'm on the right track baby
I was born this way hey!
I was born this way hey!
I was born this way hey!
I'm on the right track baby
I was born this way hey!

[Fade away:]
Same DNA, but born this way.
Same DNA, but born this way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV1FrqwZyKw

Wow, the things I learn on a Christian forum, who knew there were songs like this out there...

 

[mjrhealth]

Remember that? You might say He wasn't calling people sinners, but
the meaning of His message is just as if He was (calling people
sinners).

Jesus never needed to call any man a sinner, He simply showed them the Love of God and compassion which the pharisees where in capable of doing, and it was through His works that they saw what they where and then being convicted by the Holy Spirit repented. But christans act like the pharisees and are quick to judge and call men sinners, if one has not Love than one has nothing.

In All His Love

 

[Foreigner]

Yup. You have obviously never witnessed to the lost before.

 

[mjrhealth]

If you want me to agree with you foreigner. i am sorry, for me to do so I would have to disagree with Jesus, and that I cannot do.

In All His Love

 

[Raeneske]

If you want me to agree with you foreigner. i am sorry, for me to do so I would have to disagree with Jesus, and that I cannot do.

In All His Love

If someone is a fighter, and you tell them go and fight no more, is it not understood that they are a fighter?

For Christ to say, go and sin no more, He agreed. She was in sin. However, He would not accomplish the purposes they sought to. They sought judgement, He sought forgiveness.

By saying "Go, and sin no more" Christ virtually shows -- SHE WAS IN SIN, but He has given her space for repentance. That is what we as Christians do. That woman could have easily cherished adultery and said, "YOU'RE JUDGING ME". We as Christians know, she would have had no credibility if she said that. Go and sin no more is plain -- Yes, you are in sin, and have sinned. But here is space for repentance. Do not commit adultery no more. Same for a homosexual.

 

[mjrhealth]

in That foreigner I canot disagree

 

[dragonfly]

Hi MJR,

Here is one of the places I am referring to, where it is implicit that Jesus is calling the whole nation of Israel, 'sinners'.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee,
preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying,
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:
repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Later, He said to Nicodemus, John 3:3b 'Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'.

 

[mjrhealth]

Caling one a sinner and telling one to go sin no more is two different things. Ans as for Israel, they where under the law, the law did what it did, condemned them all of sin, That is what the law does, sorry did, unless you are still living under it.

In all His Love

 

[dragonfly]

Caling one a sinner and telling one to go sin no more is two different things.

Calling one a sinner without implicating oneself as a descendant of Adam as well, is where you may have a point. (Romans 2:1, 2, 3)

The best way I ever heard of a minister getting a group of people to understand what sin is, was to ask them what kind of things other people do which upset them. After he got quite a few responses, ideally from everyone present, he would say, 'You don't like these, because they are sins', and then he would go on to describe how seriously God takes sin, and how He sent His Son to die for the sins of the world. Then he would explain the need to make a personal decision as to one's attitude to Jesus Christ's work, and the desirability of making peace with God through His blood.

Telling one to go and sin no more, implies that victory over sin is available. That's the amazing thing about Jesus saying it, before the cross.

But this phenomenon is available today. Those who truly repent find that their heart's relationship with sin is permanently changed.

Ans as for Israel, they where under the law, the law did what it did, condemned them all of sin, That is what the law does, sorry did, unless you are still living under it.

You are not, I hope, suggesting that the law was not the word of God? That is, the word of God was condemning them.

It is still the law that sinners will die forever, unless they turn from sin in repentance, and put their trust in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ for their salvation. You may have found your own personal style of evangelism which enables you to evade reliving the pain of the rejection you experienced when the young lady was offended by the truth, but you are not necessarily doing sinners a favour. The power of the word of God to convict and heal in the same moment, is one of the ways that we know it's the word of God. Our words don't have that capacity, unless the Holy Spirit is speaking through us, indicating that we are living in the light as He is in the light, being cleansed from all sin by His blood, continuously.

I really don't see the problem in explaining this to people as objective truth with which they must come to grips if they are to escape God's wrath. Indeed, some people need to hear scripture and see that it applies to them, before either the Bible, or that Christ is alive, can make sense.

 

[mjrhealth]

You may have found your own personal style of evangelism which enables
you to evade reliving the pain of the rejection you experienced when the
young lady was offended by the truth, but you are not necessarily doing
sinners a favour

No I just learn t one of many lessons that He has being teaching me for years. I found He is the best teacher, cant go wrong with Jesus. Oh I wasnt hurt by that experience, that was nothing compared to other things i have had to face in the life. But you are right , without teh Holy Spirit we can do nothing.


In All His Love

 

[Rex]

Wow, the things I learn on a Christian forum, who knew there were songs like this out there...

My posting the lyrics and the rather telling intro in the video was to demonstrate that "being born a particular way" is a very popular theme today to justify conforming to the desires of the flesh.

 

[Raeneske]

I think homosexuality is a desire, much like lust is a desire. Both seem like they are sinful desires which have no justification. They are just there. The fact that some are more inclined to like the same sex, or lust after the opposite sex, or even after animals, just proves there are all different types of perversions in this world. To act on those desires would be sinful. However, we shouldn't even have those desires. We would be conforming to the letter only, instead of the letter and the spirit, if we did not have the outward show, but still had such things burn within us. This is what we need Jesus for, because we can outwardly refuse to do these things, but we cannot inwardly remove the sinful desires in our hearts. It is impossible for man to do this, this is why homosexuals need Jesus, just as much as the next guy.

I hope I'm making sense, I know I tend not to be entirely clear sometimes when I am writing. To lust after someone of the same sex, or even of the opposite sex, or an animal, is a sinful desire. To act on that desire, would be to confirm that desire with an outward show. However, though we may stop outwardly showing it, we still need Jesus to cleanse the inside. We need to be cleansed on the inside, to take these desires away from our heart. Instead of desire, enmity will be found between you and that desire.

As for being born that way, I will not say you are born a homosexual. You have to be tempted to be a homosexual, the desire must burn within you. You are not made that way, rather you became that way. For what reason, I know not, God knoweth. But God did not create you to be out of harmony with Him, He created you to be in harmony with Him.

 

[Selene]

At one time, homosexuality was classified as a disorder in the DSM-II until the gay activists intimidated the APA into taking it out of the psychological disorder books. Like pedophilia, homosexuality is a disorder. Since the day the gay activists were able to pressure the APA into declassifying homosexuality as a disorder, they were able to legalize same sex marriage in some states. If it was still classified as a disorder, they would not have been able to legalize same sex marriage.

 

[Foreigner]

"Intimidated" isn't even the word for it. Threats were made and promises of "bad things" were made to those who did not change their official opinions.

Note that there was no new evidence or re-review of evidence that changed the APA opinion on homosexuality.

 

[aspen]

the criteria for removing disoders from the dsm is whether or not a disorder has become accepted as normal by society. homosexuality does not produce the same level of anxiety, depression, or suicidal tendecies as it once did; especially when the person who is homosexual is able to face and deal with their same sex attraction. a recent example of the removal of a disorder is Narcissistic Personality Disorder.......apparently our culture has become so narcissistic that is considered a normal tendency. go figure....

 

[Rex]

Just face the fact that homosexuality is being fostered as normal and acceptable in the secular as well as the religious circles.
By law instead of popular opinion, doctors and scientist know best but there also not immune to being coerced.

Some would rather follow the opinions of Doctors and scientist or the popular opinion than a christian perspective, that its still a sin.

 

[aspen]

yet, classifying a behavior as sinful does little to help a person deal with the behavior; especially if the person is tortured by compulsions or told to deny their feelings. some people are so afraid of admiting and dealing with homosexuality because of the threat of hell that they end of hurting everyone they get close to and themselves. this is not the goodnews that Christ preached.

then there is the issue of the nonbeliever.......outlawing homosexuality is not going to stop nonbelievers from engaging in sinful behavior; especially when they have no reason to believe it is sinful in the first place. Christians are demanding that everyone in American follow our moral standards and then feeling persecuted when nonbelievers reject our demands. is it really reasonable for us to make demands of nonbelievers simply because their behavior makes us uncomfortable?

 

[Rex]

yet, classifying a behavior as sinful does little to help a person deal with the behavior; especially if the person is tortured by compulsions or told to deny their feelings.

You should take your issue up with the God that brought us the 10 commandments, and told us what was and wasn't acceptable.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi aspen,

especially if the person is tortured by compulsions or told to deny their feelings.

Brother, I think this is the first time I've seen so clearly how you are thinking on this topic (and possibly, on many others).

The gospel of Jesus Christ in the New Testament, has an answer for 'feelings' which God states are a corruption of man made in His image.

This answer is not laid out linearly in any great depth, but the depth is there all right, in the writings of Paul, mainly, although Peter is just as radical in his very brief statements. 1 Peter 4:1 The thing that you (and any other Christians reading this, who think that 'feelings' are a legitimate (or necessary, or, irremediable) guide to practice) must take on board, is that God understands/understood this aspect of the Fall, perfectly, and He included the solution to it when He dealt with sin through the death and resurrection of His Son, when that death is appropriated by the believer.

The fact of Christ's victory over 'the sin' principle, when He cried 'It is finished', comes in Hebrews 10:14 - 'He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified'. This is not a statement of future, but past achievement, spiritually, and is borne out through the lives of believers down the centuries. This is the starting point for dealing with the desires of the flesh, no matter which way the flesh tends, or has been fed by practices prior to faith in Christ.

Even 'good feelings' which are not intrinsically sinful, have to go under the power of the death of Christ, for the power of the resurrection of Christ to be experienced by the believer in his whole life. As the hymnwriter asked, 'How can I, Lord, withhold life's brightest hour, from Thee; or gathered gold, or any power? Why should I keep one precious thing from Thee; when Thou hast giv’n Thine own dear self for me?'

The writer precedes these questions with the following words, which are implicit again and again in the New Testament.

To Thee, Thou bleeding Lamb, I all things owe—
All that I have, and am, and all I know.
All that I have is now no longer mine,
And I am not mine own; Lord, I am Thine.


There are many who can testify of being released from homosexual desires, once they yielded that area of their life to the Lord. In fact, every Christian should have yielded the whole of the body to the Lord, as part of repentance and seeking salvation. Any doubt about this should be dispelled by Romans 6:6, 7, 10 (Christ liveth unto God), 11 (Likewise ye), 12 (Let not sin reign in your mortal body), 13 (Neither yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin, but yield yourselves unto God ... and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God), 16 (Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?)

Note the inescapable subtext, that yielding to sin is a yielding to a 'whom' - to Satan.

This is why Paul finds it obvious to write at the start of Romans 12:I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Whether the renewing of the mind comes on the heels of an understanding of 'the sin', or of specific sins, or as a result of obeying Paul's injunction, matters less than the fact that whichever comes first, a yielding of the whole body to the Lord, and a practising of His good will for one's body, will lead to proving (acknowledging to oneself and Him, as well being and having been tested in) what is good and acceptable to Him.

In other words, it is within the reach of the Christian to be(come) good in the measure he/she walks in obedience to God's life and power, Romans 6:4, and this plays a significant role in restoring to the individual believer the image of God which He intended to be intrinsic (and was in Adam before the Fall). In other words, completely pure and right 'feelings' can be experienced by the believer who genuinely yields his/her whole life to the Lord.


On the matter of 'deny their' (feelings), this is not part of the deal. They are to acknowledge to God the whole range of their wrong feelings, and ask Him to apply the power His death to them all, to sever the spiritual power which gives them life. Then they can begin to work with Him to make straight paths for their feet, and allow Him to heal all that is wrong - not just heal their thinking, but their DNA (if it has been affected, or, was the cause), and the 'feelings' which play out in their body because of deeply connected and rooted thought patterns, which neither acknowledge nor glorify Him.

 

[aspen]

Hi aspen,



Brother, I think this is the first time I've seen so clearly how you are thinking on this topic (and possibly, on many others).

The gospel of Jesus Christ in the New Testament, has an answer for 'feelings' which God states are a corruption of man made in His image.

This answer is not laid out linearly in any great depth, but the depth is there all right, in the writings of Paul, mainly, although Peter is just as radical in his very brief statements. 1 Peter 4:1 The thing that you (and any other Christians reading this, who think that 'feelings' are a legitimate (or necessary, or, irremediable) guide to practice) must take on board, is that God understands/understood this aspect of the Fall, perfectly, and He included the solution to it when He dealt with sin through the death and resurrection of His Son, when that death is appropriated by the believer.

The fact of Christ's victory over 'the sin' principle, when He cried 'It is finished', comes in Hebrews 10:14 - 'He has perfected for ever them that are sanctified'. This is not a statement of future, but past achievement, spiritually, and is borne out through the lives of believers down the centuries. This is the starting point for dealing with the desires of the flesh, no matter which way the flesh tends, or has been fed by practices prior to faith in Christ.

Even 'good feelings' which are not intrinsically sinful, have to go under the power of the death of Christ, for the power of the resurrection of Christ to be experienced by the believer in his whole life. As the hymnwriter asked, 'How can I, Lord, withhold life's brightest hour, from Thee; or gathered gold, or any power? Why should I keep one precious thing from Thee; when Thou hast giv’n Thine own dear self for me?'

The writer precedes these questions with the following words, which are implicit again and again in the New Testament.

To Thee, Thou bleeding Lamb, I all things owe—
All that I have, and am, and all I know.
All that I have is now no longer mine,
And I am not mine own; Lord, I am Thine.


There are many who can testify of being released from homosexual desires, once they yielded that area of their life to the Lord. In fact, every Christian should have yielded the whole of the body to the Lord, as part of repentance and seeking salvation. Any doubt about this should be dispelled by Romans 6:6, 7, 10 (Christ liveth unto God), 11 (Likewise ye), 12 (Let not sin reign in your mortal body), 13 (Neither yield your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin, but yield yourselves unto God ... and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God), 16 (Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?)

Note the inescapable subtext, that yielding to sin is a yielding to a 'whom' - to Satan.

This is why Paul finds it obvious to write at the start of Romans 12:I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Whether the renewing of the mind comes on the heels of an understanding of 'the sin', or of specific sins, or as a result of obeying Paul's injunction, matters less than the fact that whichever comes first, a yielding of the whole body to the Lord, and a practising of His good will for one's body, will lead to proving (acknowledging to oneself and Him, as well being and having been tested in) what is good and acceptable to Him.

In other words, it is within the reach of the Christian to be(come) good in the measure he/she walks in obedience to God's life and power, Romans 6:4, and this plays a significant role in restoring to the individual believer the image of God which He intended to be intrinsic (and was in Adam before the Fall). In other words, completely pure and right 'feelings' can be experienced by the believer who genuinely yields his/her whole life to the Lord.


On the matter of 'deny their' (feelings), this is not part of the deal. They are to acknowledge to God the whole range of their wrong feelings, and ask Him to apply the power His death to them all, to sever the spiritual power which gives them life. Then they can begin to work with Him to make straight paths for their feet, and allow Him to heal all that is wrong - not just heal their thinking, but their DNA (if it has been affected, or, was the cause), and the 'feelings' which play out in their body because of deeply connected and rooted thought patterns, which neither acknowledge nor glorify Him.

You have laid out a solid argument for caution regarding emotions. I agree with most of it, as it applies to Christians. However, as I have mentioned multiple times, nonbelievers are not bound to Christian law. We live in a nation that includes all forms of religion, including nonreligious peoples. Our laws need to reflect the will of all the people, whenever possible.

In addition, we need to remember that our minds, hearts, and will were all affected equally by the Fall and therefore, must all be in agreement with Christ. In it important not to demonize emotions and exalted reason or vice versa - all must be in submission.

Finally, I believe that homosexuality is sinful - just like abortion, but I do not believe they sound be criminalized.

interesting article: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/06/20/193922536/gay-therapy-ministry-shuts-down-says-weve-hurt-people?utm_source=npr&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130620