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Hoping to Strengthen what faith I still have

Discussion in 'Community Welcome Center' started by Chronicles, Nov 21, 2007.

  1. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Chronicles;24437)
    Hey Jag, I have been thinking a little about why you would believe the things you do and then it dawned on me…”You believe that Eve had sex with the serpent” (Fallen angel/Satan)… don’t you??? That is the only way I can see that you have come to these conclusions???If this is true, then I would say that it is an interesting concept but there is a few flaws…one is, how is it that Adam partook of this fruit???Or have I misunderstood???
    Should I show you the Hebrew? or should I show you men's interpretation that has flaw ways and easily contradict their believes with the Word of God.How did Adam partook of this fruit...? Seeing how I can't help but already knew that Satan has sex with Eve. It is a very strong possibility that Adam has committed a threesome. But however, there was no mention of Adam having sex with Eve before Genesis 4.Tree of knowledge of good and evil = SatanSerpent = SatanTree of Life = Yahshua,Trees are symbolic to man.The whole thing was God told Adam to stay away from Satan (Genesis 2:16-17) but be with other people. Eve also knew, but clearly misquoted God at Genesis 3:2-3.JagI will promise you this Chronicles, once you get the Truth in you, you will be set free, as Christ does set people free with Truth. (John 8:32, John 8:36)
     
  2. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Hi Chronicles,If you did not believe in it, and the books were burned, what made you think Jesus did? Isn't that an assumption on your part? You point to similar verses, but you admitted that you did not know what was forgeries and what was of the seven fragments in cave 4. If forgeries were made, good bet they copied off of the NT thinking the christians would buy into their writings. And like all things, they take it and run for it for awhile, until somebidy started discerning everything that was written in it and discerned it to not be of the truth. So like a crazy fad and misbelief, it was soon tossed and burned.
    I used to pray to the father in the name of Jesus by the holy ghost but these days when I pray, I am praying to “God” the creator of all things, the spirit of life, the source of my faith, the god of truth…That’s who I pray to…I rather draw from the spirit of god or draw close to the spirit of god…Probably sounds a little new agey
    It is. You are in danger, brother. You have stated that god was with you and found yourself moving away from faith. That is more than enough proof to warn you that if you are ever going to find the Truth.. pray to Jesus.. now.. more than ever. Please.As for the voice telling you that you would be the greatest teacher ever... when did God ever talk to anyone like that? I don't doubt your experience, but you have yet to discern it by the scriptures.In my real life, in 1994, I had picked up the habit of cussing out at the warehouse when no one was around. I did it loudly and angrily. One day, I picked up this pamphlet where in it were verses that convicted me of the words of my mouth. So as i read to the last page, it led me to make a covenant with my mouth. And so I did. The very next day, I was worse than I ever was before. There was a voice that said, "You are not His. If you were His, He would have helped you keep your covenant." I stopped lisetning to that voice as I gave up with trying to figure this out and so I prayed, "God. Why aren't you helping me? You know that I do not want to do this."He answered,"You made the covenant. You said you were going to do it. I made The Covenant with you, and I said I am going to do it. All I ask from you is to believe on Me."Now which voice do you think I should listen to? I chose the latter because, hey.. let's face it. That sounded like good news to me. Later, the Lord showed me by the scriptures why what I heard was Him as it was indeed written... Matthew 5:33-37 (KJV) as the reason He was speaking against making oathes that are His to keep because we can't make one hair white or black. Only God can do His work in us as we are His workmanship thus the just shall live by faith.So when a voice starts exalting you as the greatest teacher, I would say.. okay, God. Do it. But I let you go to Jesus in prayer to help you discern that voice through the scriptures. I believe He would not say that because if John the Baptist had to decrease when Jesus came so that He may increase, then you would not be exalted as the greatest teacher... not by God anyway. That is how I discerned that.As far as learning goes, I have yet to discern the voice motivating you to do that. By the example I gave, you must take this to the Lord Jesus in prayer and discern the voice by scriptures. I would not say that every voice you hear wasn't God. From my own experience, you should know why you should discern every voice. But I have to tell you, the new agey concept is just what it takes to allow "spirit guide" move you away from faith in Jesus Christ. If you keep that up, I doubt you will be able to find the truth. Indeed, I think the Lord Jesus appearing at the pre-tribulational rapture event is what is going to take to shake you loose from the clouds of deceptions surrounding you.At any rate, the book of Enoch is a poor reason to stop believing in Jesus since you are making assumptions that He read it when forgeries has been made that could have copied off of the NT. Yes... that means off of Jude too. I do believe it was burned for a reason.I shall not vouch for the Book of Enoch at all. Don't use that to void your faith in Christ. return to him in prayer, brother, if you are ever going to have any hope in finding the Truth. I kid you not for you cannot discern the voices if you do not do it by the scriptures with Jesus' help.God be willing, I shall address your other topic now.
     
  3. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Hi Chronicles,
    1. We have Jesus himself being extremely apocalyptic, in almost all of his parables and teachings…Jesus seemed to believe that the kingdom of god was about to arrive and judgment would sit…The meek would inherit the earth, his disciples would sit on thrones and the wicked would be damned to judgment…Enochian Theology pre-1st century..
    I'm beginning to think you need to start all over again as if most of what you have learned was from the world, but God be willing, the Lord shall help clear some of your misperceptions... as you have admitted to assumptions by the usage of words like "seemed" to. If you can graps the idea of a personal relationship with God through Jeesus Christ, then learn of Him through the scriptures... not from other writings from man on the scriptures... and certainly not from me. Bottomline, Jesus is the One you need to be seeking for answers from, but as I said, God be willing, mayhap, H will supply enough answers for you to start from scratch again... as in the milk of the word before the meat.John 18: 35Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.37Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.So Jesus spoke of His kingdom not of this earth.
    Didn’t Mohammad get taken up also?? Do we await Mohammad also??? Or is that Islamic mythology...
    That is Islamic mythology. Mohammad is dead and buried still in Madina.http://lexicorient.com/e.o/muhammad.htm
    Wasn’t Elijah supposed to return in Jesus time? So, we are still awaiting Elijah’s return and now we await Jesus also???
    Jesus referred to John the Baptist to be "like" Elijah. There are only guesses as to whom the two witnesses are in Jerusalem during the great tribulation. Some say Elijah and Enoch. Some may say Elijah and someone else. Some may say Enoch and someone else. More than likely, those that are in the great tribulation that see the two prophets will know for sure.As I read your run down the prophecy post, you sound exasperated. In truth, you are saying things that are not settled truths. You keep expounding on them with other unsettled truths. What I mean is... you have alot of statements thrown up in question and yet you left it there instead of looking for answers from the Lord Jesus through the scriptures.
    2. Paul beliefs weren’t concentrated on the Jews…It had become a Global end of the world with a return of Christ and a resurrection from the dead, along with Christians being ruptured (caught up) into the air to be with Christ at his return. His writings show that his followers expected Jesus to return and the dead to rise to life, along with rapture, at any time.
    And yet warnings were given as to what signs to look for and not be led astray by false alarms.2 Thessalonians 2: 1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:And as in all of Pauls' writings, he desires for those to be found abiding in Him... to always be ready... the gist of it. That would also put to rest the rest of the false alarmists about Christ's return.
    As we can see, Christianity is filled with failed bible prophecy from its beginnings!!Can we then rely on the Bible??? Can you see how I have lost my faith???Can it be fixed???This has become obvious to me through studying 1st cent history???
    I really believe you are inundated by so many things that you are not categorizing them appropriately. Like for the part about the mark of the beast. Does it buy and sell? No. So all application, no matter how similar, are not the prophecy stated. As the verse I quoted, it should put to rest all such claims. One can find one clue of a prophecy to match and find it oddly enough in application to people or any part of history, but it should fit all clues of that prophecy... as in the example of the mark of the beast... or the son of perdition.When all of the prophecy comes together, you will know.. that was it. Then people will still doubt it and say... they wrote that after the fact to make it look like a prophecy, because they do not want to believe for they prefer the darkness rather than come to the Light... lest their deeds be repoved.Chronicles, you really need to start from scratch again. You need the milk of the word and you need to pray to Jesus only. You need to ask for help cause those other spirits sound like they got you going away from the faith without even confirming the run of reasons you left. You made an overall judgment call without really categorizing your findings and applying them appropriately towards the quest at hand. Your use of the Book of Enoch is in the same way. You used it to depart from faith as well as prophecies to stop believing, but Enoch was not canonized to be used in the Bible and prophecies are guesswork when applied to people, places, and times when the mark of the beast is being used to buy and sell. Let that all go, man. Drop all that intellectual run-around. Start back at the beginning and trust Jesus to help you find the Truth again. Use the KJV.
     
  4. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    My great friend chroniclesthis is my last post for a while, I am taking a break from all things which are connected to my sins and are not from God so I may be able to break an addiction.And yes I am 15. and this is my own faith. Not my parents, and not anybody elses. It has been self taught in a catholic background. could you drop me your email address so I can contact you at the age you define appropriate for me to kill you in theology, that is after you try and challenge my faith. That will be wonderful. ( i say I will be ready in two weeks)But I must say something right now. ignoring death will do you nothing, you live your life so that you will have the best 75 years you can have possible. for what purpose so you can sleep forevor in your grave. THERE HAS TO BE MORE.and your saying that humankind has been violent for the entire tiem we are on the earth that there was no time that we fell, that there will never be a time where we will live in peace again.THE PEACE WILL COME. we just have to wait until God clears things out when christ comes again. and even in the immpossibility that your right I will be the first one to break out of the cycle of violence.and your advice, your last peace of advice. that I will waste my life away in religon. Really??... because as I it, see all the people who live outside of religon are wasting away in theres. You see I am going to tell you my second life goal, my personal one. I dn't know where you live, but I live in the worst country possible, the United States. Here in the united States we are wealthy and our live evolves around the dollar. You start out life with school as your greatest priority. why?? because the better you do at school the more money you are likely to have. So you get the college scholarship, get the highest paying job and live happily ever after.Or do you, because the person who has everything quickly realizes he has nothing, the person who has enough cash to live off of and get some of the things he wants is always miserable because in the end they never are satisfied with the amount of money they have, when what they don't know is when they do they will have nothing.and the person who has none is as miserable as the one who has all the money. As he can not get the money, which will grant supposedly true happiness but in fact brings the oppositeits like humanity is riding in a train where all the windows are covered up in a pitch black tarp so that not one can look outside and the whole purpose of the train ride is to get the front seat the seat of honor. and the person who has th efront seat thinks " is this it" and is miserable and the person behind him is so slose to having the seat of honor but doesn't have it so he is miserable. and the person in the very back seat will never have the front seat so he is miserable. in fact all of humanity is miserable but they never bother to look outside to bust through the windows and look outside and find true happiness. well I'm going to, I'm going to live without the things humanity considers important and break through that window. and find true happiness. That is why I'm becomeing a catholic priest. are you with me chronicles.are you going to break through that windowlets go fishing something more." so if you gain your life you will lose it, but if you lose it you will gain it" Jesus Christlets break throught that window.
     
  5. Chronicles

    Chronicles New Member

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    G’day Fitz, Finally got around to answering your post…Please don’t take offence to my approach in this post, I am just challenging you mate...
    15 yrs old with a heart for God, Good on ya mate…I have a 17 yr old Son and 3 daughters 11, 18 and 21…They are all very good people, as a result of there up bringing…
    Self taught in a catholic background and your only 15 hmmm…Being self taught at 15 when you have parents and a family life is almost imposible…So tell me Fitz, Are your parents Catholic? Did your parents bring you up in a catholic background? Have they always taken you to Church all through your life?How is it that you’re self taught if it is your parent’s faith that you have embraced? Can you explain that, so I can understand because it doesn’t make sense…seems to me that you have embraced what you have been fed all your life? How is it self Taught?
    O.K. your 2 weeks is up already [​IMG]Like I said, I have children around your age, so it is a little like debating theology with one of them…there simply too immature to understand life let alone religion…A good way to put it would be…Let’s say;Your 15 yrs old and luv the things of God… Then you meet an 8yr old who also Luvs God and is passionate about those things and he assumes he is more Awear of God and the things of god than you because of his luv and passion for god but your 15…What could he possibly understand or know more than you at 8 yrs old…He would be to immature to match you…On a larger scale, I am 40 and you are 15…I have no doubt we could have a great discussion about god but would it be to arrogant of me to assume that your at least another 15 yrs away from knowing life, god and those experiences, to be able to challenge me in faith, theology or even God and life it’s self…Your just beginning the race and I am finishing it…How is it that you assume you are in front of me in this race Fitz, lol, the young are so arrogant these days…
    Why???Evidence and logic suggests otherwise…What you are suggesting is not evident or logical…it is what we call “MYTH”…
    Again, Faith based on Myth without any evidence what so ever...In other words, your wishful thinking…
    I doubt it…What about Jesus, Gandhi and many others…You wouldn’t be the first to brake out of human natural instinct and animal instinct in general and you wouldn’t be the last…Just because someone believes that “Good” = “Right”…It does not make it so…Nature teaches us that the violent Lion will Violently Kill the humble deer and that is the way of things…God made it that way… the lion killing the deer is not “Good” but it is “Right”…So, when your dreaming of Peace, I hope it feels good because that is as close as the world will get to it…
    Firstly, I am a non-Christian with a fantastic (Hot) wife, 4 children and many grand children coming…Waisting away my life??? You haven’t a single clue what you are talking about…You need at least another 15 yrs my friend, to be able to understand what I am telling you …Life is not about religion, Faith and god!!! It is about family!!! You will see that for your self soon enough…Maybe within the next 15 yrs I hope…Secondly, I didn’t say don’t waste your life away in religion…In fact I said the opposite!!!I said, “Don’t waist your life trying to unite the Catholic and Christian religions because they spent too much time separating the paganism from the Bible…I also said, “Don’t waist your life as a Catholic Priest”…I then went on to tell you that you could become a theologian or scholar or even a historian, all within the catholic church…They are religious interests and jobs that have the whole world at a cross roads with religion…I, by no means said, “don’t waist your life with religion”…
    You live in one of the best countries in the world Fitz…take a good look around the world mate and be grateful?
    Well, it is a good start at least…
    This is huge stereo typing hear dude?
    It doesn't seem like you have any idea what you’re talking about hear Fitz…Do you work? Have you got a career? How much do you earn? Have you got a mortgage? What bills do you have?Why???Because; How many dependants (Children) do you have? Do you have a roof over your children’s heads? Do you have cloths on there backs? Do you have food in there mouth? C’mon mate, remember we are in the real world…You will have children to take care of one day, so get a good education so you can earn a good dollar so you can do a good job of taking care of your children because without money, your screwed mate, and so are you children…Get real dude…Money is everything in our culture and without it, your a bum or a begger…
    Hears true happiness Fitz;Get a good educationMeet a good womanHave good kidsHave Great and Many GrandchildrenLive a healthy life and luv your family and friendsThen die!!!That is true happiness and if your not awear of that, then email me in at least another 15 yrs because it will probably take that long for you to learn that lesson…At least that long…
    [​IMG] That is hilarious Fitz… Then you will be miserable all your life if you do…
    No Dude, you have me realizing how very young you are…
    Well, I broke through that window you described yrs ago and found the true meaning of life…The lion does not and never will, lay with the Lamb… so maybe you want to take it from someone 3 times your age and forget ever becoming a catholic priest or being a do gooder because if you do become this priest, you will never experience any of what I have said and in doing so, you will be miserable like all those catholic priests are…But most of all, you will miss out on the true meaning of life…Family, Wife, Children Grand Children and DeathTo me, That is a beautiful life …God is wonderful in all his ways…
    Were do we go from hear Fitz, No offence mate but do you see what I mean by the age creating a totally different perspective on life…Your looking forward while I am looking back…
    If you listen to me today you will gain your life but if you ignore me in the name of religion, you will loose your life to it…
    Not me Fitz…I am a OK without becoming all religious or becoming a "do gooder"…I AM THE LION!!! This is happyness:)...If you become the Lamb, you will be miserable, "I swear it"...A little more fishing!!Do you believe in the celibacy vowels that catholic priests make?If so,why?Don’t the scriptures say that deceitful spirits will enter the church forbidding marriage??? I’m Sure it says that somewhere?Fitz, have you never heard of “Mithras”?If you become a priest this is the God you will be a priest to…O.K. let’s address that issue if you still want to fish with me…Take CareChronicles
     
  6. Chronicles

    Chronicles New Member

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    If you did not believe in it, and the books were burned, what made you think Jesus did? Isn't that an assumption on your part?
    No, it would be more a historical likelihood, however, the gospel writers defiantly did have 1Enoch as a source and that is evident…
    You point to similar verses, but you admitted that you did not know what forgeries were and what was of the seven fragments in cave 4. If forgeries were made, good bet they copied off of the NT thinking the Christians would buy into their writings. And like all things, they take it and run for it for awhile, until somebody started discerning everything that was written in it and discerned it to not be of the truth. So like a crazy fad and misbelieve, it was soon tossed and burned.
    I can assure you that you have not done enough study on this 1Enoch to determine the conclusion for yourself pariah, however I have and I, along with “All” Scholars, would agree that 1Enoch was written 150bce…Those fragments found were not the only ones found and this is not the only place it is found…You will have to research further if you want the truth…As for me, it is a fact that 1enoch was written before Jesus Life time…A Fact!!!Anything you say otherwise is uneducated manipulation to protect your religious beliefs…A better word would be “Denial”…
    At any rate, the book of Enoch is a poor reason to stop believing in Jesus since you are making assumptions that He read it when forgeries has been made that could have copied off of the NT. Yes... that means off of Jude too. I do believe it was burned for a reason.
    I have no doubt that you are wrong!!! My reasoning is strong and yours is based on assumptions, not research, while mine is based upon much research on the subject, so when you stop assuming and start studying, then I may be able to take what your saying but you are obviously the one filled with assumptions leaving me thinking you haven’t gone away and researched what I have said, your just counteracting it with argument…I see that because if you did truly go and find out for your self, you would come to the same conclusion as I and all other biblical scholars have…It’s hard to address a lot of the other stuff you say because it is far to presumptuous and misinformed…Just because you have your biblical views doesn’t mean you can get all presumptuous as though you have some monopoly on truth in these issues because it is obvious you are so far from truth that it is ridicules that you continually suggest I am wrong because you are write…I can’t discuss anything on those terms pariah because presumptuous people are always 100% wrong while in 100% denial…I really think you need to start from scratch pariah, your religion has mixed up your thought patterns mate…You speak with such authority and yet nothing you say has any authority to it???Maybe you should back up a little and realize I am obviously not going to believe you just because you speak as though you are right??? It doesn’t work like that mate…I am 100% sure you are wrong pariah and yet you think you have some monopoly on the truth??? Very sad my friend???
     
  7. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    (Chronicles;26382)
    G’day Fitz, Finally got around to answering your post…Please don’t take offence to my approach in this post, I am just challenging you mate...15 yrs old with a heart for God, Good on ya mate…I have a 17 yr old Son and 3 daughters 11, 18 and 21…They are all very good people, as a result of there up bringing… Self taught in a catholic background and your only 15 hmmm…Being self taught at 15 when you have parents and a family life is almost imposible…So tell me Fitz, Are your parents Catholic? Did your parents bring you up in a catholic background? Have they always taken you to Church all through your life?How is it that you’re self taught if it is your parent’s faith that you have embraced? Can you explain that, so I can understand because it doesn’t make sense…seems to me that you have embraced what you have been fed all your life? How is it self Taught?O.K. your 2 weeks is up already [​IMG]Like I said, I have children around your age, so it is a little like debating theology with one of them…there simply too immature to understand life let alone religion…A good way to put it would be…Let’s say;Your 15 yrs old and luv the things of God… Then you meet an 8yr old who also Luvs God and is passionate about those things and he assumes he is more Awear of God and the things of god than you because of his luv and passion for god but your 15…What could he possibly understand or know more than you at 8 yrs old…He would be to immature to match you…On a larger scale, I am 40 and you are 15…I have no doubt we could have a great discussion about god but would it be to arrogant of me to assume that your at least another 15 yrs away from knowing life, god and those experiences, to be able to challenge me in faith, theology or even God and life it’s self…Your just beginning the race and I am finishing it…How is it that you assume you are in front of me in this race Fitz, lol, the young are so arrogant these days…Why???Evidence and logic suggests otherwise…What you are suggesting is not evident or logical…it is what we call “MYTH”…Again, Faith based on Myth without any evidence what so ever...In other words, your wishful thinking…I doubt it…What about Jesus, Gandhi and many others…You wouldn’t be the first to brake out of human natural instinct and animal instinct in general and you wouldn’t be the last…Just because someone believes that “Good” = “Right”…It does not make it so…Nature teaches us that the violent Lion will Violently Kill the humble deer and that is the way of things…God made it that way… the lion killing the deer is not “Good” but it is “Right”…So, when your dreaming of Peace, I hope it feels good because that is as close as the world will get to it…Firstly, I am a non-Christian with a fantastic (Hot) wife, 4 children and many grand children coming…Waisting away my life??? You haven’t a single clue what you are talking about…You need at least another 15 yrs my friend, to be able to understand what I am telling you …Life is not about religion, Faith and god!!! It is about family!!! You will see that for your self soon enough…Maybe within the next 15 yrs I hope…Secondly, I didn’t say don’t waste your life away in religion…In fact I said the opposite!!!I said, “Don’t waist your life trying to unite the Catholic and Christian religions because they spent too much time separating the paganism from the Bible…I also said, “Don’t waist your life as a Catholic Priest”…I then went on to tell you that you could become a theologian or scholar or even a historian, all within the catholic church…They are religious interests and jobs that have the whole world at a cross roads with religion…I, by no means said, “don’t waist your life with religion”…You live in one of the best countries in the world Fitz…take a good look around the world mate and be grateful? Well, it is a good start at least…This is huge stereo typing hear dude?It doesn't seem like you have any idea what you’re talking about hear Fitz…Do you work? Have you got a career? How much do you earn? Have you got a mortgage? What bills do you have?Why???Because; How many dependants (Children) do you have? Do you have a roof over your children’s heads? Do you have cloths on there backs? Do you have food in there mouth? C’mon mate, remember we are in the real world…You will have children to take care of one day, so get a good education so you can earn a good dollar so you can do a good job of taking care of your children because without money, your screwed mate, and so are you children…Get real dude…Money is everything in our culture and without it, your a bum or a begger…Hears true happiness Fitz;Get a good educationMeet a good womanHave good kidsHave Great and Many GrandchildrenLive a healthy life and luv your family and friendsThen die!!!That is true happiness and if your not awear of that, then email me in at least another 15 yrs because it will probably take that long for you to learn that lesson…At least that long…[​IMG] That is hilarious Fitz… Then you will be miserable all your life if you do…No Dude, you have me realizing how very young you are…Well, I broke through that window you described yrs ago and found the true meaning of life…The lion does not and never will, lay with the Lamb… so maybe you want to take it from someone 3 times your age and forget ever becoming a catholic priest or being a do gooder because if you do become this priest, you will never experience any of what I have said and in doing so, you will be miserable like all those catholic priests are…But most of all, you will miss out on the true meaning of life…Family, Wife, Children Grand Children and DeathTo me, That is a beautiful life …God is wonderful in all his ways…Were do we go from hear Fitz, No offence mate but do you see what I mean by the age creating a totally different perspective on life…Your looking forward while I am looking back…If you listen to me today you will gain your life but if you ignore me in the name of religion, you will loose your life to it…Not me Fitz…I am a OK without becoming all religious or becoming a "do gooder"…I AM THE LION!!! This is happyness:)...If you become the Lamb, you will be miserable, "I swear it"...A little more fishing!!Do you believe in the celibacy vowels that catholic priests make?If so,why?Don’t the scriptures say that deceitful spirits will enter the church forbidding marriage??? I’m Sure it says that somewhere?Fitz, have you never heard of “Mithras”?If you become a priest this is the God you will be a priest to…O.K. let’s address that issue if you still want to fish with me…Take CareChronicles
    So tell me Fitz, Are your parents Catholic? Did your parents bring you up in a catholic background? Have they always taken you to Church all through your life?How is it that you’re self taught if it is your parent’s faith that you have embraced? Can you explain that, so I can understand because it doesn’t make sense…seems to me that you have embraced what you have been fed all your life? How is it self Taught?My parents are obviously catholic have obviously brought me up in a catholic backgroundThey not only brought me to a catholic church but a catholic school.So how have I self taught my religon, easily by the age of 13 my faith was Gone. well not completley, but if I waited a couple of weeks it would have.I lost faith in God, Lost faith in who he was, lost faith in my religon. Until one day......actually I had to type an article about God in 8th grade for the church newspaper and I chose to write about this event. I hate the article, one of the worst things I ever written, but everybody loved it. This is how I found out my first known fact about God. It’s amazing to me how God can speak to you in so many ways. He can speak to you in voice, thought, the bible, and even, and most often, other people.Throughout my life I’ve always believed that God was a kind and merciful I believed that no matter what you did he would forgive you. I also believed that he would do anything for you if you ask of it.But by the beginning of 2005 that image of God was about to change. It began with the tsunami. At first I thought that it was just another natural disaster, until I heard a fact about it that completely blew my mind.The fact was that if you took a map showing where the greatest persecution of Christians were, and took a map of where the tsunami hit they would show you the exact same areas. This fact alone showed an image of God that I had never known before. Instead of a kind and merciful God this showed a wrathful and angry God.Pretty soon many things in my life approved of the wrathful image of God. They ranged from books, radio shows and even my own teachers.Before long not only did I doubt the Catholic Church, and its view of God, but also my faith. Not only did God not feel like a real thing, but Jesus also felt further away and not real. My Christian Faith was in Jeopardy.So I did the only thing I could think of, turn to God. I asked him to show me what kind of God he was. That night when I was about to fall asleep, I heard a voice, “pick up the bible” and I knew instantly that God was talking to me. I opened the bible and without knowing it, turned to proverbs chapter 1. Throughout the chapter one subject was in it. This subject was wisdom. I closed the bible and wondered what this had to do with my situation. And just before I reached the most obvious conclususion “nothing” It hit me. God was saying that he would give me wisdom. That wisdom came the very next day.That next day a guest Pastor was in our church. His name was Fr Peter Dougherty. During his homily he began with this sentence” most Christians belief the wrong things about God” And I grinned, this is where he’s going to tell everyone that God is a angrier God then most people think. Peter Dougherty began again “most Christians think he is an angry God, a God who doesn’t care about people, I am here to tell you today about Gods love.Suddenly I realized that God was talking to me. During that moment God was no longer an angry God but right there for, at that Jesus no longer felt far away but right next to me. And God kept talking to me, through Mrs. Crowley’s anti-war speeches, through mr.muneous religion classes, and most of all through the bible Overall I know now more about God then I did before. I know now he has a serious side which may be a bit harsher than we would care for, but overshadowing this is his love.I know because God has spoken to me. He has spoken through me by voice when he told me to read the bible. He spoke to me in my thoughts when he told me that he would give me wisdom. He spoke to me through proverbs 1 and he spoke to me through people telling his message. God is love.yeah that is a horrible piece. But it does record the story, the first fact I truly learned, God is love. Ever since then I have studied the bible, look at the ideaologies of several christian faiths and came up with my beliefs which was the basic beliefs of almost all the churches. all the churches except for the catholic church. See the catholic church had a wierd theory of how the saints are spiritually alive and you can pray with them they call it the communion of saints. This of course cannot be found in the bible. The catholic church has three official ways to define your faith. That is the scriptures, personal experience, and church tradition. Now obviously I no longer belief that the catholic church was all that so church tradition was, actually still is, out the window.Scriptures didn't prove the saints so personal experience had to. This exactly what happened. I was about to do a very dark sin. and as soon as I started doing this act. an amazing thing happened. I saw a vision of Saint PeterOk so it was just a vision of a man wearing clothes of the type peter would of wore. But as soon as I saw him, instead of the natural human instinct of Just staring at him and wondering " who in the heck are you" I somehow instantly knew from the first glance.I stopped the sin and continued staring at him. he dissapeared within seconds.The saints are alive. this was my most dramatic personal revelation and therefore my best example, I have had many more through God. approving of most catholic traditions. ( I'm still waitinmg on a few.)this is how I got my faith back by losing it and then Gaining it back, but not through the doctrines of men which made it weak, but through the doctrines of God.this is already an incredibly long post so I'll answer your next questions later.
     
  8. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Chronicles,It is on you to prove it. You said you did the research and yet nothing is shown of that research. Not very convincing, my friend.Show the comparison as in what was translated from the ten fragments found in the Dead Sea Scrolls that match up with what is in the total Ethiopic Book of Enoch. I am not asking for the whole book of Enoch. I am asking for what was actually translated from the ten fragments that verifies what parts in the Ethiopic Book of Enoch. That means not matching up a phrase while the rest is unreadable and assuming by the smudged letters that this is from here to there. I want what was actually translated as readable to verify the Ethiopic Book of Enoch. AND if there were any descrepancies that was translated in phrases and wordings as in not matching up with that Book of Enoch. Can you do that or have you not done that research yet? Do provide the link.I already showed you why I believed it is a fraud. I gave you the links to show the different levels of Heavens given by Enoch and poof.. you ignored it. Very sad, my friend.Do remember the topic of your thread. "Looking to strengthen what faith you have". By the grace of God, I gave you to meet that need, and now you are telling me to do research that you supposedly have done to strengthen your lack of faith? You are the one that has explained why, but it is on you to prove the authenticity of the reasons why you turned away from your faith. I can go online and search and find everything but the answer to the question I posed to you.It just seems to me that because they found fragments in the Dead Sea Scrolls, everybody is assuming that the whole Ethiopic Book of Enoch is the real McCoy and not one of the forgeries made.... AND forgeries has been recorded as being made.So answer the question. You did the research. Show off your stuff. You say I am assuming and yet you seem to be so slow in producing the needed information for my benefit by deflecting in how wrong I am in assuming and presumptions. If you do not answer the question, then you did not researched it well enough, my friend, for me to understand why you use it as an excuse not to believe.I already told you why I do not believe in it because fallen angels cannot take "wives" for if angels are not marrying nor given in marriage, and God gave the commandment in nature in how kinds are to reproduce after its own kind, then so it is with man. Jesus' own words say that flesh can only give birth to flesh.... flesh cannot give birth to demons. You are not discerning what is written by the Bible as to why it is not IN the Bible. The Books of Enoch were burned for a reason!!!I know in Whom I believe. I know Him. I don't have to convince you of that at all. It is up to the Lord to reveal Himself to you. I just share if you are looking to strenthen your faith and from this point, it sure looks like you are not looking to strengthen your faith anymore. It looks like you are trying to attack my faith now. Whethor or not God will reveal Himself to you even when you are not looking, I know not. But I do know that all those that seek, shall find, and that spirit you are talking about... sounds like new age stuff. I already addressed you on that topic to pray to Jesus for answers.. not to that spirit, but I guess you seem to forget that in order to strengthen that faith... you should go to Him Whom that faith is based on to get to know Him. Very sad, my friend.I am not asking you to take my word for it, but you sure seem to be saying the other way around by sending me off to do the research that you supposedly had already done? I know the Books of Enoch are frauds for the Bible exposes them as frauds.You want to believe in it because they match up? I say they do not match up because it goes against what is taught in the Bible about angels and the laws God set out in nature. That is why I believe they are frauds. That is why they are not in the Bible.
     
  9. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    Your 15 yrs old and luv the things of God… Then you meet an 8yr old who also Luvs God and is passionate about those things and he assumes he is more Awear of God and the things of god than you because of his luv and passion for god but your 15…What could he possibly understand or know more than you at 8 yrs old…He would be to immature to match you…On a larger scale, I am 40 and you are 15…I have no doubt we could have a great discussion about god but would it be to arrogant of me to assume that your at least another 15 yrs away from knowing life, god and those experiences, to be able to challenge me in faith, theology or even God and life it’s self…But what if this 15 year old has been arguing with people an average of 35 years older than him for the last 3 years.and what if I said that I have been arguing with people about your age since grade 5. Trust I can argue theology with you.
     
  10. Chronicles

    Chronicles New Member

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    But what if this 15 year old has been arguing with people an average of 35 years older than him for the last 3 years.And what if I said that I have been arguing with people about your age since grade 5. Trust I can argue theology with you.
    I don’t argue theology Fitz because arguing is done by two arrogant fools who know nothing, say everything, listen to no one and think with one tracked minds like a blind fools…I personally like to discuss or even debate Christian theological issues…I luv to do that with others who are interested in learning also…I however have no time to waist arguing against blind views…As for your long resume of argument and debating theology, over so, so long [​IMG], I have to wonder if you ever sit and just listen and learn from these 35 and 40 yr olds or are you to foolish and arrogant??? I like to believe the first is true Fitz…Sorry I am being so forward hear Mate…I am around teenagers all the time…I have 3 of em myself plus I run a Carpentry Business employing and training apprentices starting from your age… Some apprentices think they are so good and know everything to a point of arrogantly arguing with the tradesman or even me, (there boss)…I wouldn’t tolerate this attitude for one second…those that do have this attitude, thinking they know everything and yet they know nothing…They are the first I get rid of because they are useless to me and my other workers…I can just see it, lol, an 18 yr old telling me my trade because he has done it since he was 15 yrs old…It really is laughable mate…I’ve been a carpenter for 25 yrs and I have to listen to an upstart tell me my Job because he thinks he knows better after 3 yrs…Hysterical [​IMG]I brought my children up on that commandment that says, “Honor and obey your parents and you will live long and prosper”…Humility and respect is a huge part of this…When a 15 yr old theologian “Argues” with a 40 yr old theologian…It’s like an apprentice telling the tradesman how it is done or arguing over how to do a job…Ridicules and Childish…Don’t get me wrong Fitz, you haven’t been disrespectful at all but this type of attitude is not very humble for someone like your self that is to young to know hardly anything about life let a lone Bible theology…Let’s see how it goes then…Why don’t you help Pariah address that one single question I am about to put to him…can you contribute to this discussion mate???
     
  11. Chronicles

    Chronicles New Member

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    Pariah, I see what your saying mate and I think we have crossed some great points but somewhere it got to much, to long and to confusion…Maybe we should stick on one point…When was 1Enoch written???You do seem to have misunderstood my point of view on 1Enoch in the sense that I have not come to any conclusions because of any find at cave 4…That was a web site I found to prove to you that the Essense had this 1Enoch in there possession before and around Jesus time…It had nothing to do with my final conclusions on Enoch…It went more like this;I read it, believed it, studied it, found out through much study that it was written in 150bce, weather you want to accept that fact or not, just research to see… As I have said over and over, “ALL” scholars believe this, so why would I believe your assumptions without proper study on it Pariah…Anyways, After that, I realized it was Ancient Jewish Myth and non of it was true…Then I realized that the early Christians used it as divine scripture because the new testament tells us they did…Then I saw the direct quotes in the new testament…Then I saw the theological view of the Jesus of the gospels and how this paralleled to 1Enoch…Then I came to the conclusion, like some scholars, that 1enoch was a main source for “revelations” and many other parts of the New testament…That has been the basic process but I, at no point, pulled up the Dead Sea scrolls to research it until I was discussing it with you…Tell me Pariah, what do I have to do to prove to you that 1Enoch was written around 150 bce??? If you give me an idea on what type of evidence you expect I will try to dig it up but I figure you will reject the work of scholars??? Is that right??Do you have any respect for Biblical Scholars Pariah??? Should I post some of there comments and see what they have to say on the mater??? Will that convince you??? All you have to do is do your own search because it is unavoidably a fact that will come up on all websites…1Enoch was written in 150bce!!!And if that is true, then that totally destroys the New Testament as god’s divine word, in my opinion…That is another subject!!!
     
  12. Chronicles

    Chronicles New Member

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    Hey Jag, Why does your mood say lonely mate??? Pick a subject and we will discuss it…Hears one if your interested;You seem so convinced that you have some truth concerning Adam and Eve that has changed your view of the world??? Is that right???I have a question for you…Have you ever heard of Adams first wife Lilith??? Eve was his second wife according to Jewish mythology…http://www.dhushara.com/book/consum/plas.htm
    In the beginning, the Lord God formed Adam and Lilith from the dust of the ground and breathed into their nostrils the breath of life. Created from the same source, both having been formed from the ground, they were equal in all ways. Adam, being a man, didn't like this situation, and he looked for ways to change it. He said, "I'll have my figs now, Lilith," ordering her to wait on him, and he tried to leave to her the daily tasks of life in the garden. But Lilith wasn't one to take any nonsense; she picked herself up, uttered God's holy name, and flew away. "Well now, Lord," complained Adam, "that uppity woman you sent me has gone and deserted me." The Lord, inclined to be sympathetic, sent his messengers after Lilith, telling her to shape up and return to Adam or face dire punishment. She, however, preferring anything to living with Adam, decided to stay where she was. And so God, after more careful consideration this time, caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam and out of one of his ribs created for him a second companion, Eve.
    What do you know about proud Lilith mate???Tell me your secrets about Adam and Eve and I will tell you mine [​IMG]Don’t be lonely mate, just PM me if ya want to discuss anything on a theological or historical level or just for good company (I however leave the counseling or any personal problem solving up to my good friend Fitz because he is more priestly that I)…Take CareChronicles
     
  13. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Chronicles,
    Pariah, I see what your saying mate and I think we have crossed some great points but somewhere it got to much, to long and to confusion…Maybe we should stick on one point…When was 1Enoch written???Tell me Pariah, what do I have to do to prove to you that 1Enoch was written around 150 bce???
    Ya don't. What I have found to be the arena given is 200 BCE to 50 BCE in regards to the fragments does coincide with your stated finding, but....
    If you give me an idea on what type of evidence you expect I will try to dig it up but I figure you will reject the work of scholars??? Is that right??Do you have any respect for Biblical Scholars Pariah??? Should I post some of there comments and see what they have to say on the mater??? Will that convince you???
    Well, for one that does not put much faith in the Bible because of man, why do you believe scholars are infallible? Did you know that I had a Bible that says the behemoth was a hippo or an elephant in a footnote by "Biblical scholars"? How much intelligence does it take to not put that in there since the tail of the behemoth was as a cedar.. a tree? It sure makes them look stupid. That is a big mistake. One forever etched in my memory. That is why you should discern everything, my friend.Let's take a step back, all right? Let us really look at the Book of Enoch for what it is. Enoch is who? Some guy before the Flood. And he wrote this? Things that is to be written, sealed, and such before what? Before the Flood.. before Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible, the Pentateuch: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy? Seeing a problem here? Noah and his family had the writings of Enoch on the ark, had it preserved safely through the Flood, and stored where? Who kept up the copying and where, when they had yet to multiply and replenish the earth? Was it luck of the draw that it should wind up in the care of Moses and the Jewish scholars as Israel became a people that was led out of Egypt to become a nation? Seeing another problem here?And yet... in spite of the 200 BCE and 50BCE, for which we shall say 150BCE for your argument's sake, that is the earliest finding and no real preserved copy after all this time they had been keeping it? AND not recognized as an authoritative text for all the time it has been in their holdings? For all the purported claims that it has been used and that Jesus had read it as well as the other disciples, how come the only thing that is found is is dated around 150BCE and in fragments too? Scholars have been pretty faithful in the keeping up of the scrolls... and yet Enoch is suddenly a break from the norm as it suddenly becomes an unauthoritive text found in ten fragments... no less? Hmm.....Yes. When was it written? Who wrote it? And if not Enoch, how can it say to Enoch to write, and seal the book up? That is a specific command to Enoch, was it not?So... as a skeptic of scholars that are fallible, and their pursuits and desires are not always transparent when they seek out something to "add" to the "faith". Sometimes they want to believe so much that they have found something of value, that they care not to discern the contents within at all. They just want to authenticate and report the age of the find as I am sure they can be meticulous in their effort with a margin for human error and judgement.So what am I saying? Looks like Enoch was something like the book of Mormons as the Jews do not consider it as an authoritative text. How important is that?Consider the fact that they stone false prophets for telling a lie as in speaking for God, so shall a book be considered not authoritative. Example: The Book of Jasher says Sarah was Abraham's niece, but Genesis 20: 11And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake. 12And yet indeed she is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. .....Practically blows that away. There are legitimate reasons why Jews considered these other texts as not authoritative.In order for them to stone false prophets ( the other ones that do not speak of future events that are exposed when it does not come to pass), they use the scriptures to determine if he is speaking for God. A cult is known as one that speaks nine truths and slips in one lie or so I have heard. If a false prophet is judged as such, then what about the other books not in line with the scriptures? Seems like if there were questions in the scriptures, they couldn't have a stoning punishment at all for false prophets.So I question it highly as I see it as some sort of book of Mormons by a Jewish sect that having been found in tatters cannot confirm the finding of the whole books of Enoch as to whethor the whole books are forgeries or orginals of a non-authoritative texts by a select group of Jews that may be tolerated by society to a point. In either case, I see it as a fraud... and that is looking at it from the outside and not judging the inside by the scriptures in the Bible as a fraud.. which I see it as is, also.So then the question should be now is... how likely that the whole book of Enoch is a fraud and copied off of Jesus and the NT now since very little can be compared from the ten fragments to verify that the whole book of Enoch is not the forgery one? Hmmm...Anyway, I do disrespect the scholars when it becomes quite obvious they are not doing their homework to the full or in common sense. I believe that driven by worldly teachings and hidden expectations within oneself, scholars can be subjected to pre-conceived views that alters their findings from what should be obvious in front of them.Kind of like... not sure this is an approprite analogy, but a mortician gets called out to a scene off of an old country road near an old abandoned church where there are many bodies found buried as the police has declared a massive burial ground of a mass murder. Forensics are called in while the police and search dogs are scouring the other grounds for more bodies. The mortician doesn't think about the sign that says Cemetery on it. He is just interested in doing his job well and to find the cause of death of those in this mass burial plot. Does this help explain my disrespect, and why I do not believe Enoch is to be taken seriously? I mean, come on. As much as Jesus quoted the Old Testament in bits and pieces and not as much as we would like and it was all over the place, and yet why is the Book of Enoch seems to mirror most of His quotes and the NT? If they copied off of Enoch.. why not the other books that are better preserved than Enoch? Especially the books that are authoritative? There is no way Enoch should be taken as Biblical.Come back to Jesus, brother.
     
  14. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    meant to say debating. or even better yet discussinglets just say 5 minutes till class starts and I have to get something down. arguing faith doesn't get people anywhere.Oh wait it does it gets you split up into 33,000 different denominations.
     
  15. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    hey chronicles one honest questionwhat will it take you to believe in God.not asking in anger or frustation or anything negative.just curious????
     
  16. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    back to answering that first post Why???Evidence and logic suggests otherwise…What you are suggesting is not evident or logical…it is what we call “MYTH”…but why is it that almost every person accept for the athiest need to believe it. You look in every culture in every religon there is a life after death. why???listen from a logical standpoint this is just a myth, But you hear many myths in your life. Why does everybody just decide to believe in this one. I mean you run across someone saying aesops fables are real and you laugh and say how crazy are you, but you run across someone saying God is real and you don't laugh but wonder. Think about it. Why????because our natural beliefs, our first beliefs, before corrupted by culture and other people believe otherwise. Think about it, you say you were an athiest until 20, but when you were a little child, a 6 or 7 year old, you did believe in some type of God. Why, because its a basic understanding in a humans heart.Just because someone believes that “Good” = “Right”…It does not make it so…Nature teaches us that the violent Lion will Violently Kill the humble deer and that is the way of things…God made it that way… the lion killing the deer is not “Good” but it is “Right”…So, when your dreaming of Peace, I hope it feels good because that is as close as the world will get to it…I cannot disagree with your statement here, because sometime doing good in this world can get you screwed. but in the overall picture we know it will do otherwise. and about peace never happening on earth Even the bible agrees with you on this, this is why God will create a new heaven and a new earth, so we can get away from the destruction which is with us on this one. Ok I got to go. I'll answer your next set and the pariah question when I get back.
     
  17. Pariah

    Pariah New Member

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    Hi Chronicles,I am not sure why I couldn't think of the correct term instead of mortician as it was the "medical examiner" I was thinking of for my analogy in the previous post. But in a way, it made sense. A mortician should have known a cemetary when he saw one just as a Biblical scholar should know why those books are not in the Bible. The mortician is already doing the work which was done and yet not, because the corpse are not in its rightful place but waiting in the morgue as the police are investigating the scene as a mass murder. The scholar should know why they were excluded, because it was done prior, but yet holds the book of Enoch to be examined as a legit find while readers take it as something to be guided by like the rest of the Bible.
     
  18. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    (Chronicles;26509)
    Hey Jag, Why does your mood say lonely mate??? Pick a subject and we will discuss it…Hears one if your interested;You seem so convinced that you have some truth concerning Adam and Eve that has changed your view of the world??? Is that right???I have a question for you…Have you ever heard of Adams first wife Lilith??? Eve was his second wife according to Jewish mythology…http://www.dhushara.com/book/consum/plas.htmWhat do you know about proud Lilith mate???Tell me your secrets about Adam and Eve and I will tell you mine [​IMG]Don’t be lonely mate, just PM me if ya want to discuss anything on a theological or historical level or just for good company (I however leave the counseling or any personal problem solving up to my good friend Fitz because he is more priestly that I)…Take CareChronicles
    Sorry but I do not agree with Pariah comparisons here apples and oranges espically about Enoch Enoch walked with God and was one of those who was transfigured (never died ) Pariah can not give an unprejudegest opinion because it goes against his beliefs. Many Christians do believe Gen. 6 so have no problem with Enoch and if you step back you can see some amazing knowledge of the way weather worked as explained by Enoch among other things there is nothing in Enoch that Goes against scripture. This stories were handed down through the generations and only fragments existed until verily recent times it still isnt complete and should never be taken as scripture but is a Look into history and does give an interesting account of Noahs birth ect. Now that being said as for Adams second wife Lilith this work goes completly against All scripture there is no truth(biblical) at its core and was obviously a work of pagans or fools there is not any truth to it you must learn to decern these things if there is no Bible scripture to back up something in a work it is a false teachings this storie is nothing but a pagan Fable.If you can not decern good works from Bad you should stay away from them untill you can decern the truth
     
  19. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    weve been going at this all wrong chronicles.you can't convert, inspire, or change anybody when it comes to faith just by debating.Even if me and Pariah to answer every question another will come up and sooner or later we will get to a question neither of us can answer with significant proof. and we will be argueing without any results.As christians we are supposed to show people who we are andwho they could be by our actions, love, and holiness. all the rest is up to God. I apologize for wasting your time. I was more concerned about proving you wrong then trying to improve your faith.I was doing My work before Gods.What a beautiful letdownpainfully uncoolthe church of the drop outs, the losers,the sinners, the failures, and the fools.- switchfoot want to Join us.
     
  20. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Chronicles, there is no need for me to discuss anythng more. I'm only interested in scriptures. I'm only interested in giving out Truth with love. But I will not and I refused to give out Truth, trying to prove someone wrong. Just pointless, and wrong.Jag
     
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