Hostility put to death...

[Irwin Fletcher]

Thanks for your response. I agree with the need for correction and I would say that the circumstances you are speaking of come under the area of Christian authority. This forum is not a Church and does not and cannot function as a replacement for the Church, but it can operate as a Christian community of another kind. We do see examples of Christians functioning together for different purposes in Scripture and someone often functioned as the leader of those communities. Sometimes those leaders had to bring correction.

I think that is what I would see here. This community is founded and very useful for both Christian fellowship, but also for Christian learning, dialogue and growth. Sometimes, we might get an Apollos in our midst who is bold and off base in his teaching, but will be willing to respond to correction and grow. Other times, it might be someone more like Simon the sorcerer, who seems like a friend, but ultimately has ungodly motivations that could destroy the community. As I mentioned in one of the comments above, the issue may be one of disputable issues. I pray the other moderators and you have the wisdom to know when it is something worth bringing correction and when it is worth letting it go.

As someone who has had to "fire" someone when I was in a Christian organization, I can appreciate the difficulty you might have in dealing with these issues. It is always good to check your own heart before proceeding with discipline, but ultimately, sometimes discipline is the most loving thing that can be done for a person.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Other times, it might be someone more like Simon the sorcerer, who seems like a friend, but ultimately has ungodly motivations that could destroy the community.

Other times it's about 10 Simons, 1 Elymas, 2 antichrists, 1 Judas Iscariot, and 13 manifestations of Beelzebub himself, Lol.

As I mentioned in one of the comments above, the issue may be one of disputable issues. I pray the other moderators and you have the wisdom to know when it is something worth bringing correction and when it is worth letting it go.

Absolutely. I'm Apostles Creed right down the line, but as far as speaking up is concerned, the matter of the continuation of the supernatural gifts as being central to true Christianity is what I find most relevant to today and the future of the church. So aside from stepping in to quell strife, that's one debate I feel duty-bound to involve myself in.

As someone who has had to "fire" someone when I was in a Christian organization, I can appreciate the difficulty you might have in dealing with these issues. It is always good to check your own heart before proceeding with discipline, but ultimately, sometimes discipline is the most loving thing that can be done for a person.

Well tell us a little more about yourself. Your responses sound wonderfully measured and seasoned for a typical forum member.

What type of church did you pastor, and why did you quit? If that is too personal, I understand. Just curious to know more about you.

 

[Irwin Fletcher]

I served in ministry in a Muslim country until earlier this year, when I received a permanent ban from that country. I was one of the elders of a church there. (We were elder led, with three different elders handling the pastoral duties) So, I didn't quit, but when I could no longer live in that country, I was no longer able to continue in service of my ministry and church there. I had served there for 19 years.

 

[historyb]

You can't, it has to be mutual. You can't reconcile with someone who refuses reconciliation, but you can forgive them.

You can't false unity, to get along just because. I'm not going to pretend to be united when there is not much in common

 

[Hidden In Him]

I served in ministry in a Muslim country until earlier this year, when I received a permanent ban from that country. I was one of the elders of a church there. (We were elder led, with three different elders handling the pastoral duties) So, I didn't quit, but when I could no longer live in that country, I was no longer able to continue in service of my ministry and church there. I had served there for 19 years.

That's wonderful. Not the being forced to leave the country part, but that you were involved in a ministry to Muslims. I would imagine that is not easy work. I don't know how open they were to your ministry where you were, but I've heard that one effective way the Lord reaches them is through visions and dreams, sometimes of necessity, because normal evangelism doesn't reach them all that well.

 

[Irwin Fletcher]

It was very common. We shouldn't be surprised. They believe that God will speak to them in that way and I think it is only natural that the true God of the Universe would reveal Himself to them in that way. We saw a variety of methods have some success over time, but by far the fastest responses were when God directly revealed Himself.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It was very common. We shouldn't be surprised. They believe that God will speak to them in that way and I think it is only natural that the true God of the Universe would reveal Himself to them in that way. We saw a variety of methods have some success over time, but by far the fastest responses were when God directly revealed Himself.

This forum has numerous members who believe the same thing, more so than any other I am aware of, and I couldn't agree more. The Muslims I have met were strong debaters, and trying to convince them though mere mental persuasion of the truth of the gospel was a daunting task...

And personally, I see the same thing being true when it comes to Christian counseling. If someone receives a genuine dream from God, it can open up counseling on a matter they would never consider discussing without hours of getting to know someone, and even then they may not be comfortable sharing. It's like the Holy Spirit cuts directly through the soulish clutter and hang ups people have, and goes straight to the issue that needs addressing. I believe this is one reason the scripture says that dreams and visions will become one of the hallmarks of the end-time church (Joel 2:28).

 

[Davy]

In this current environment, it seems like there is a great deal of division. In this recent post, I'm looking at Ephesians 2:16 -

“Together as one body, Christ reconciled both groups to God by means of his death on the cross, and our hostility toward each other was put to death.” (NLT)

What do you think about this concept when applied to the divisions (political and otherwise) that we see between many Christians today?

Click the link for more of my thoughts about it.
Hostility put to Death

The new wine of God's Word has never been popular. That is why Lord Jesus said you don't put new wine into old bottles, lest they break. But you put new wine into new bottles, so both are preserved. That parable is about God's Word full strength, the deeper Word, like the "strong meat" of Hebrews 5, and the old bottles are men's traditions.

If you try to teach God's Word full strength to an congregation stuck on old traditions that has been used to sucking on the 'milk' of God's Word all their life, they won't be able to handle the new wine. Their old bottles will break. Most of them won't do their own Bible study with discipline, so they just accept about everything the preacher tells them, not being a Berean to check their preacher out in God's Word.

Then there are the 'crept in unawares' that were 'ordained' to the condemnation of being against Christ (Jude 4). This enmity has been in place against God's people ever since the Garden of Eden. OT Israel allowed the false ones to creep in, and thus Apostle Paul also knew after his leaving there would be false ones creeping into Christ's Church with damnable heresies (Acts 20:29-31). How does one recognize those? By discipline in all of God's Word, of course. How many do that discipline, but instead rely on denominational doctrines devised from some far away city with Church Quarterlies and such? or even worse, with teaching books like Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series in Sunday school instead teaching from The Bible?

Today, in these last days, is certainly not a time to be messin' around with playing religion, but a time to really get into study of God's Word with discipline, asking His help, and using the good Bible study tools like a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance with Hebrew-Greek Lexicon, a KJV Bible. Those should be the minimum tools for the English speaking people. Other good tools are The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge topic reference, an Englishman's Concordance for word study, and a Brown, Driver & Briggs Lexicon for the Hebrew names of people and places.

 

[bbyrd009]

There is more animosity in the world right now than I have ever seen in my 61 years. People are cruel to each other, mean and nasty. Divisions over politics, masks, social gatherings, etc. People need to be more tolerant of other people's choices and beliefs. But, many seem to demonize the other side of a debate. As if the people who do not believe like us are shameful people.

Seems like a lot of petty bickering on this site, as well (I've been guilty a time or two, myself). Doctrinal conflicts bore me and seem futile. Bickering about the end times also seems silly , to me. When I was a new Christian I was very interested in end times (my brother, a new Christian, is obsessed with the end times), but I've been led astray too many times with people who claim to have the correct interpretation of Revelations. Now, I just tell myself, "No man knows the day or the hour" - that enables me to throw all end timers into the same boat - they must be wrong if they claim to know the truth. I prefer sharing ideas, considering other's insights, and growing in my understanding of God's plan for humanity.

seems all new believers are obsessed with "end times" huh
we look for a corporate--rather than an individual--"end times" when we're new, i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

Thanks for your response. I agree with the need for correction and I would say that the circumstances you are speaking of come under the area of Christian authority. This forum is not a Church and does not and cannot function as a replacement for the Church,

well, or so you say anyway, right?
Does "Church" imply brick-and-mortar to you, i guess?

People tell stories of churches splitting over the color of the carpet or church softball game.

and those are your definition of "church" too?
i guess it maybe seems contrary or whatever, but they dont have to be imo

but it can operate as a Christian community of another kind. We do see examples of Christians functioning together for different purposes in Scripture and someone often functioned as the leader of those communities. Sometimes those leaders had to bring correction.

I think that is what I would see here. This community is founded and very useful for both Christian fellowship, but also for Christian learning, dialogue and growth. Sometimes, we might get an Apollos in our midst who is bold and off base in his teaching, but will be willing to respond to correction and grow. Other times, it might be someone more like Simon the sorcerer, who seems like a friend, but ultimately has ungodly motivations that could destroy the community. As I mentioned in one of the comments above, the issue may be one of disputable issues. I pray the other moderators and you have the wisdom to know when it is something worth bringing correction and when it is worth letting it go.

As someone who has had to "fire" someone when I was in a Christian organization, I can appreciate the difficulty you might have in dealing with these issues. It is always good to check your own heart before proceeding with discipline, but ultimately, sometimes discipline is the most loving thing that can be done for a person.

believing in Death, More Abundantly is just loaded with landmines, huh
best of luck to you, ok

 

[bbyrd009]

That's wonderful. Not the being forced to leave the country part, but that you were involved in a ministry to Muslims. I would imagine that is not easy work. I don't know how open they were to your ministry where you were, but I've heard that one effective way the Lord reaches them is through visions and dreams, sometimes of necessity, because normal evangelism doesn't reach them all that well.

well hih how would you feel if i told you that you need Jesus in the worst way, right now? Wouldnt that be kind of offensive?

 

[lforrest]

No, you're good. There are 2 additional issues that I think are relevant to this topic that aren't mentioned in the article:

1. The issue of disputable matters. Christians need to be taught to better differentiate between core doctrines and disputable matters. We should be willing to call fellow (local) believers into account when they violate and teach against the core teaching of Scripture, but we should learn to show grace in disputable matters. People tell stories of churches splitting over the color of the carpet or church softball game. "My brothers, this must not be". Issues of little theological importance are one of the main areas where hostility must be put to death.

2. Christian national tribalism. The bulk of our faith should be lived out in a local context, not a national or social media context (I say as I write this on an internet forum). The more relationship exists, the more Scriptural authority we have to understand the situation and actually provide accountability. "Cancelling" famous pastors or Christian leaders has no Biblical support. When we hear of someone who is supposedly a believer and we have no personal relationship with them, 99%+ of anything productive we could do on their behalf involves prayer. None of it involves gossip or slander.

Welcome to the forums!

It would appear you are aware of some of the difficulties with managing a nondenominational Christian organization which consists of people from many denominations who are here for different reasons.

The hostile divisions taint the atmosphere of the place and drive off the sheep. I'm sure it would be worse if we didn't enforce rules of conduct. I am thankful for all who endure the hostility with patience. I do believe even our negative experiences will come in handy for each of us.

Allowing some hostility is beneficial, as we can safely ignore people's opinions when they expose the contents of their hearts. And more often than not it is impossible for them to keep the rules and they accumulate warnings.

 

[Truman]

I'm heavily grieved by it myself personally.

I know as Christians we are going to see things differently from one another. Our priorities, our experiences, and even our place in the body. (The hand may feel something as being quite nice to the touch while the nose is able to detect an offensive smell for instance) - it's understandable that we will have different perspectives.

What grieves me is the hostility when those differences are seen. Arguments instead of discussion. Hostile reactions instead of measured responses in love.

Instead of working like a body where the hand which has no sight or tough understands what it feels, but is willing to consider what the nose is telling it from a different perspective - it seems more Christians these days get offended by other members of the body telling them that there are other perspectives. We're convinced in our own superior intellect. It seems more Christians are proud, instead of being humble - willing to consider they may be wrong and wanting to understand why someone else who loves the Lord like they do may have a different opinion.

And this isn't just isolated to general Christians. I see it in Christian leaders as well.

That doesn't mean that the other party may be right. They could be deceived. And if so - that deception needs to be revealed.

But even so - it seems many of the responses are done out of anger, heat, and emotion instead of love. I've seen it with the left, universities and debate - and see it in the Church and question who's leading the Church these days, the Lord, or the world.

It also grieves me how so many well meaning and genuine Christians can be so at odds with each other - but to me this is a secondary issue because I figure if we can't get the basics of treating our brothers and sisters in the Lord with respect first, what chance have we of actually getting other more complicated parts of scripture right.

I haven't read through that link yet - so if I'm off topic I apologize.

I recently realized that when I think of the leaders of those who are at odds with people like me, I had nothing but a desire for justice for them. Surely I couldn't be that bad. Then this came to me: "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9 NIV
Then I recalled how I can go on about us all standing on even ground before God. It is only by the holy mercy of God that any of us are forgiven. What a faithful God we have. Lord Jesus, help me to love those I've deemed unworthy of love and help me to pray for those I didn't deem worthy of repentance. You are the Potter and we are the clay. Amen.

 

[Irwin Fletcher]

Welcome to the forums!

It would appear you are aware of some of the difficulties with managing a nondenominational Christian organization which consists of people from many denominations who are here for different reasons.

The hostile divisions taint the atmosphere of the place and drive off the sheep. I'm sure it would be worse if we didn't enforce rules of conduct. I am thankful for all who endure the hostility with patience. I do believe even our negative experiences will
come in handy for each of us.

Allowing some hostility is beneficial, as we can safely ignore people's opinions when they expose the contents of their hearts. And more often than not it is impossible for them to keep the rules and they accumulate warnings.

Definitely, there is sin in hostility, but also sin in the quiet demand for conformity. Wisdom is required to determine when we are being angry, but not in sin and when we are being controlling outside of the bonds of orthodox Christian doctrine. Glad to be apart of the discussion.

 

[Irwin Fletcher]

I recently realized that when I think of the leaders of those who are at odds with people like me, I had nothing but a desire for justice for them. Surely I couldn't be that bad. Then this came to me: "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9 NIV
Then I recalled how I can go on about us all standing on even ground before God. It is only by the holy mercy of God that any of us are forgiven. What a faithful God we have. Lord Jesus, help me to love those I've deemed unworthy of love and help me to pray for those I didn't deem worthy of repentance. You are the Potter and we are the clay. Amen.

It is beautiful how He continues to redeem and use such unworthy vessels as us. He gets all the more of His deserved Glory because of it.

 

[Irwin Fletcher]

well, or so you say anyway, right?
Does "Church" imply brick-and-mortar to you, i guess?
and those are your definition of "church" too?
i guess it maybe seems contrary or whatever, but they dont have to be imo

believing in Death, More Abundantly is just loaded with landmines, huh
best of luck to you, ok

I guess I should be consistent in my use of church. I was mostly referring to church as in local bodies of believers who sometimes meet in buildings, not in the Universal Church as in the Body of Christ/Bride of Christ.

 

[Truman]

It is beautiful how He continues to redeem and use such unworthy vessels as us. He gets all the more of His deserved Glory because of it.

Awesome, isn't He?

 

[Hidden In Him]

well hih how would you feel if i told you that you need Jesus in the worst way, right now? Wouldnt that be kind of offensive?

Actually, coming from you it sounds kinda nice, in the strangest sort of way, LoL.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Wisdom is required to determine when we are being angry, but not in sin and when we are being controlling outside of the bonds of orthodox Christian doctrine.

This brings up an interesting verse in this regard. Not all interpret James this way, but when he spoke of "let no man say when he is tempted 'I am becoming tempted from God'" I believe he was talking there about claiming that he was justified in lashing out with the tongue against fellow believers because they were teaching doctrines they did not agree with. So there was a justification there for saying, "The Lord rebuke you, and yada, yada, yada." But he went on to say, "For God is untempted by evils, and He tempts no man." Does that mean our God never gets emotional or even angry with those leading His sheep astray? Most certainly He does. But He does not get tempted by the enemy, i.e. lured or seduced into acting out of Character, and giving in to evil desires in the midst of dealing with it.

This is I think what we as Christians have to master. People make me mad when I see them leading the sheep astray, and I believe they will be held accountable for such things. But scripture commands not to let the sun go down on our anger, and I believe it relates to this very sort of thing. We must not allow ourselves to get seduced by the enemy into harboring resentments towards others, because as he also said, once it has conceived and become fully formed it leads to death. The momentum of anger and wrath (James 1:19-20) leads to cursing others (James 3:3-12) and willing harm to them when God has spoken no such judgment. It is arising only from having allowed ourselves to become resentful of others, and not letting God deal with our hearts.

That was a bit of a ramble, but it's what came to mind when I read your words.

 

[bbyrd009]

Actually, coming from you it sounds kinda nice, in the strangest sort of way, LoL.

narf
hopefully the point is still made