House Churches.

[Rollo Tamasi]

Talking taxes...... should Churches be tax exempt?
Should donations be tax exempt?

NO!
By doing so we put ourselves under the control of the government.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

House churches are a good thing.
If you have good leadership.
and then that goes for any size church.
So the question isn't if house churches are a good idea or not, the question becomes do we have good leadership at any level.
My feeling is that house churches provide a personal level of discipleship which is all important.
Everything we do comes from our discipleship.

 

[Triumph1300]

Yes, the leadership in the house church is important.
I agree. It's very important, just like it is in the other churches.
We had good leadership, I think even better than in the churches in town.
But others might have a different opinion, lol.

Leaders in home churches usually have regular jobs or are retired.
The retired ones I prefer. They have more time for the church (people) and don't need to waste time on buildings and all that's connected to it.

 

[aspen]

Yes, the leadership in the house church is important.
I agree. It's very important, just like it is in the other churches.
We had good leadership, I think even better than in the churches in town.
But others might have a different opinion, lol.

Who does the leader of the House Church answer to? If you say God, how do you test that the leader isn’t mistaking his ego with God - besides Kool Aid? If you say the scripture, how do you trust his interpretation of the scripture?

 

[Helen]

Who does the leader of the House Church answer to?

The rest of the group.

 

[aspen]

The rest of the group.

How do you avoid becoming a clique or a cult?

 

[Helen]

How do you avoid becoming a clique or a cult?

You probs haven't done so...but actually it is very good....being a smaller group keep it all honest, no place to hide.
It is much more "real" than a large church , where no one is real, people have their "Sunday Smiles" glued on ..and they 'play nice', even when they are not...and no one really knows anything about anyone else.

Give me the house church any time.
I have done decades in both...I know where my choice lays...

 

[Triumph1300]

How do you avoid becoming a clique or a cult?

I never saw any home church in our area turning into a clique or a cult.
I did see it happen with "established" churches, lots of them turning into dead bones.

 

[aspen]

I never saw any home church in our area turning into a clique or a cult.
I did see it happen with "established" churches, lots of them turning into dead bones.

We have diffeence experiences

 

[Windmill Charge]

Just a couple of comments.
If a 'church', whether house or not, is involved among the community it is entitled to claim charity status and either not pay tax or to claim tax back.
This is allowed under most legal system and isn't a form of government control.
Most churches are registered churches in the west as zoning/building regulation require the local authorities to know the purpose the building is being used for, again this does not imply control of what those churches are doing by the government.

Lastly church regulation/ dealing with disputes. This is an area where if the 'church', whether house or not, belongs to an organisation there is the opertunity to bring in Christian from outside the dispute to mediate. By belonging there will be a statement of belief which is useful if a leader does start to stray.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We have diffeence experiences

Tell us about your experiences.

 

[Triumph1300]

If a 'church', whether house or not, is involved among the community it is entitled to claim charity status and either not pay tax or to claim tax back.

Changes are on the way. In Canada that is. (Not sure how that is in the US or elsewhere...)
If a church preaches against abortion and homosexuality there can be no wage subsidies anymore for summer students employed by a church.
Churches need to sign the form before getting the ok for the subsidies.
The liberal/socialist godless Trudeau government came up with this new regulation.
It robs 1000's of students from being employed by christian organizations.

This is one reason churches should not be connected with tax exemptions and subsidies to start with.
It will put government control in the church.

As far as I'm concerned churches should NOT receive subsidies etc, God can and will take care of it's own, we don't need the government for that.

 

[Triumph1300]

By belonging there will be a statement of belief which is useful if a leader does start to stray.

The home church I attended did have a statement of faith.
Anybody going to a any church or home church should know what they believe before getting involved.
When they don't follow that statement a person should bring that up at a meeting and when not solved one should leave that church.

 

[charlesj]

Most of the time they did meet in houses, even though as Rollo Tamasi pointed out the Apostles as well as Jesus also taught in temples and synagogues. Heck, jesus taught on the mount at least once.

Marymog pointed out that they didnt have other options. This is true... It was at the time a reletively small movement and one hated by the Jews and Pagans.

I want to point out 1 Cor 11:18. Paraphrasing, Paul says that when they came together "in the Church", he heard about divisions. When you read that chapter in context he was talking about an actual building of sorts, or at least a place. He wasn't talking about the body of believers as the church. He was talking about the meeting place.

. Its a longshot imo.

The English word "church" was not in the bible(s) until the KJV came out. The king of England, King James, wanted an English translation of the bible. He gave his translators 15 rules to use. The 3rd rule was when you get to the Greek word (ἐκκλησία) "ekklesia" translate it with the English word "church." Normally ekklesia is congregation or assembly.

There is a pretty good book on the KJV that I read years ago and is still available on Amazon.com titled,
In the Beginning: The Story of the King James Bible and How It Changed a Nation, a Language, and a Culture Feb 19, 2002 by Alister McGrath

Once I started reading it I could not lay it down. Very interesting book. I personally think the KJV has caused a lot of false doctrine due to some translated Greek words that could have been translated better. For example: the KJV translates aion (αἰών) which means "age" as "world" in Matthew 24:3. World is the Greek word "kosmos" NOT "aion." In Matthew 12:31, 32 Jesus said that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit would not be forgiven "in the age or the age to come." (KJV has "in the world or world to come.") Several points I want to express, first the age Jesus was living in was fixing to end (Old Covenant age) and the age to come is the New Covenant age, the age we live in. The second point, regarding false doctrine, Matthew 24:3 many preach and teach that Matthew 24 is speaking of the "end of the world" because of 24:3 (world) when the chapter is speaking of the "end of the age." That ending age was finalized in 70 A.D. when the prophecy of Jesus in Matt 24 was fulfilled. Jesus even told them at that time, "this generation will not pass away until they see these things happen." (my words.)
May the Lord bless you as you serve Him.
charles. Any questions? email me as I don't get on this site very much... [email protected].

 

[amadeus]

In the USA churches may elect a tax exempt status with the IRS [Internal Revenue Service] under section 501(c)(3) of the IRC [Internal Revenue Code] Most, but not all, churches have done so. Similarly a minister has had special provisions where he might have elected not to pay personal income or Social Security taxes. Individual Christians may take deductions on their otherwise taxable income given to churches.

In the case of church buildings, many small churches could not afford the property taxes if they had to pay them. This is where Uncle Sam could control them... If that property tax exemption were removed or the government were to redefine what a "church" was in order to qualify for the exemptions many smaller groups could lose their buildings and other property. I believe they have actually used these provisions against a few smaller groups that most of the larger denominations would call cults. The time may come when it is used more extensively. I believe the laws to do this already exist: Just change a few definitions, which the IRS already has the authority to do, I believe, without asking the President or Congress.

I never dealt with the property taxes but when I worked for the Social Security Administration I occasionally had to deal with ministers who had elected not to pay Social Security taxes. There was no switching back and forth allowed. Once a minister elected to pay Social Security taxes his ministerial earning remained taxable. But... I have been retired for 18 years. Very likely the law has changed some on those things since I retired. Many other things have... like same sex marriages.

Of course probably most of us know that a result of the 911 attacks due process of law can be suspended even for U.S. citizens. This is our right to go before a judge before serving prison time.

 

[Triumph1300]

If you want to mess up the income tax system, do this, like a friend of mine did:

He figured he was not going to take hand outs from the government.
So, he decided to throw the government's family allowance checks in the wood burner.
Of course at the end of the tax years he did not report it on his income taxes.
This messed up the government so bad, the whole thing took 5 years to get it straightened out.....
Of course the government figured he got the money, and they had to backtrack every year to see if the checks were cashed.
My friend thought this was the most funny way of messing up their system.

 

[amadeus]

If you want to mess up the income tax system, do this, like a friend of mine did:

He figured he was not going to take hand outs from the government.
So, he decided to throw the government's family allowance checks in the wood burner.
Of course at the end of the tax years he did not report it on his income taxes.
This messed up the government so bad, the whole thing took 5 years to get it straightened out.....
Of course the government figured he got the money, and they had to backtrack every year to see if the checks were cashed.
My friend thought this was the most funny way of messing up their system.

Many years ago when I was still working full-time one man filed for his monthly Social Security checks but decided to help out his debt ridden Uncle Sam by donating his checks back to the government. He took the paper checks [no direct deposit in those days] each month to the local Social Security office and insisted that they take the checks. They had no instructions on how to proceed other than give him a receipt for his checks. Someone had to write some new procedures in order to handle such returned money. I doubt they had to use the procedures very often. Also seemingly his gesture has not made a significant dent in the debt.

 

[FHII]

I really don't know why I do things like this; I have a hard time leaving stuff like this alone. So I apologize for nit-picking.

The English word "church" was not in the bible(s) until the KJV came out.

That is not true. It was used in the Bishop's Bible, the Geneva Bible as well as the Tyndale Bible.

He gave his translators 15 rules to use. The 3rd rule was when you get to the Greek word (ἐκκλησία) "ekklesia" translate it with the English word "church."

This is partially true. The 3rd rule was not to change the translation from church to assembly.

What isn't being mentioned is that the first rule was to follow the 1568 Bishop's Bible as much as possible. The Bishops used the word "church" as do other English versions that predate the KJV.

Normally ekklesia is congregation or assembly

I am not going to count every time the words come up, but I did a comparison of many different english versions for q cor 11:18... 2 out of 3 times the word church was used over congregation or assembly.

It doesn't matter that much because whether church or assembly is used, the meaning ddoesn't change. The context of the chapter tells he was speaking of a meeting or assembling place.

Now, if you go to eph 1:22 he is talking about the saints when he says "church"; not the meeting place.

 

[Windmill Charge]

As far as I'm concerned churches should NOT receive subsidies etc, God can and will take care of it's own, we don't need the government for that.

I'm not talking about subsidies, but of what the government's own tax laws allow charities to legaly claim back from the tax paid by church members.

Here in the uk a tax payer can sign a document that confirms he is or has paid an amount to a charity. That charity can then claim the tax paid on that amount.
There are two conditions. the tax has to have been paid and the organisation has to be registered as a charity. With tax at 25% of basic salary this can boost any charities funds.

That said if in Canada the government pays directly to an organisation an allowance/subsidy.
Then I would want to know the term and conditions before agreeing to accept. If it involved lgbt etc then I would reject it.

 

[Triumph1300]

Not paying church property taxes is the same as a subsidy.
I don't see reasons why churches should not have to pay property taxes.