How can Jesus' death save us?

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Jim B

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It at least appeared in all the quoted verses sir, keep in mind the Bible does not exist, only altered versions.

"the Bible does not exist, only altered versions"? a) The Bible obviously exists. b) What do you mean by "altered versions"? Altered from what?
 

Angel Faith

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I think that's why it's called Faith. In order to arrive there we have to sometimes abandon reason.
 

Charlie24

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Hi Charlie, been a while since we conversed sir, hope all is well. No sir, salvation is yet future, we build a friendship with God from knowledge, that taking in of knowledge leads to our salvation, if we apply it of course. Jn 17:3

Yes, it's been a while since we have talked. I've always considered you to be well mannered and respectful in conversation. I'm sorry that we completely disagree on the Scripture!

I can let the difference in doctrines slide, but not the way to eternal life. If we get anything right from Scripture it should be our salvation, it is by far the most important knowledge man can possess. That salvation comes only by faith in the finished work of Christ, Robert.

John summed up his 1st epistle by saying, "these things have I written unto you who believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:13

I agree that Paul told us that our salvation is not yet complete, we have received a down payment of the Holy Spirit by faith. We will receive the balance at the resurrection, when our redemption is total and complete.

But John told us that we can have assurance of salvation here and now! So did Paul tell us the same.

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor. 6:11

The difference we have is how this justification is achieved! I have noticed for some time now that you have added many things as a requirement for salvation. You have added these things to faith. Do you not know that anything other than faith is works? Do you not know that when you add these things, making them mandatory for salvation, that Grace is made void and of none effect, as Paul said?

Rom. 11:6

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

We've got to get this thing of salvation nailed down, Robert. This is the one thing we can't afford to get wrong!
 

Robert Gwin

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So what does "saved" mean to you? I believe that I understand the term clearly but I am interested in your opinion. You wrote this to JunChosen -- It is the will of Jehovah that His elect be saved Jun -- That not only stops there, but He desires all people to be saved -- so you must have an idea of its meaning.
Thanks for asking Jim, saved and salvation are terms applied to those who will receive the gift of everlasting life. We do not have salvation until we have everlasting life. Most people apply the term to themselves for being Christians, I assume to indicate that if they died right now they would go to be with Jesus, at least that is what I think they are thinking. Jesus was quite clear in saying that his followers would have to endure to the end to be saved Mat 24:13. Good news is however, that all persons who died will receive a resurrection unless of course they sinned against the holy spirit, which is not forgiven sir. Mat 12:31,32
 

Robert Gwin

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And Jehovahs Witnesses are experts at altered versions! If you think teh English is wrong- by all means this is the place to bring your evidence.
Ours is not perfect by any means Ron. But no doubt it contributed highly to the differences in our understanding of the Bible sir.
 

Robert Gwin

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"the Bible does not exist, only altered versions"? a) The Bible obviously exists. b) What do you mean by "altered versions"? Altered from what?
Where is the Bible located Jim, you would be the only one on earth to know. There are several versions of the Holy writings available, yet they do not say exactly the same thing, therefore all versions have some alterations. They were altered from the original writings of course.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Ours is not perfect by any means Ron. But no doubt it contributed highly to the differences in our understanding of the Bible sir.


Wrong. It was translated by men who had no expertise in Greek or Hebrew and they intentionally altered the Scriptures to their own destruction! YOurs as well if you continue down this path till death.
 

Robert Gwin

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Yes, it's been a while since we have talked. I've always considered you to be well mannered and respectful in conversation. I'm sorry that we completely disagree on the Scripture!

I can let the difference in doctrines slide, but not the way to eternal life. If we get anything right from Scripture it should be our salvation, it is by far the most important knowledge man can possess. That salvation comes only by faith in the finished work of Christ, Robert.

John summed up his 1st epistle by saying, "these things have I written unto you who believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:13

I agree that Paul told us that our salvation is not yet complete, we have received a down payment of the Holy Spirit by faith. We will receive the balance at the resurrection, when our redemption is total and complete.

But John told us that we can have assurance of salvation here and now! So did Paul tell us the same.

"And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." 1 Cor. 6:11

The difference we have is how this justification is achieved! I have noticed for some time now that you have added many things as a requirement for salvation. You have added these things to faith. Do you not know that anything other than faith is works? Do you not know that when you add these things, making them mandatory for salvation, that Grace is made void and of none effect, as Paul said?

Rom. 11:6

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

We've got to get this thing of salvation nailed down, Robert. This is the one thing we can't afford to get wrong!
You understand salvation better than most Charlie, likely you have read about the coming Kingdom Mat 6:10, and how death will be cast into the lake of fire Rev 20:14, but I am thinking that you may not understand the time period sir. The Bible indicates that for those of us who have inherited the earth, will have to be tested, as was Adam and Eve who failed and put us in this position. It will not be until after the millennial reign of Christ that satan will be released to tempt us Charlie. It is very easy to understand and clearly states that. Rev 20:7,8. Notice that the born again Christians who went to heaven gained their salvation, actually immortality when they were resurrected to heaven, as you stated and recorded for us at Rev 20:6, but for the rest of us we do not gain life until we undergo that test, that is why verse 5 stated the rest of us do not come to life until the thousand years have ended. It makes perfect sense Charlie.

You already understand that salvation does not come until after death so far, but for most of us we will not have it until we pass the test, then satan and those who fail that test will be cast into the lake of fire, and the death we inherited from our original parents will be gone forever Rev 20:10; 21:4. Hope this helps sir.

Another thing that you mentioned is knowing we have salvation, the truth is, we cannot know, there would have been absolutely no doubt in Judas mind that he was saved, he was personally selected by Jesus to be his apostle, what a privilege. No doubt until just before he traitored Jesus, he would have thought he had it in the bag. Everyone is basically righteous in his own eyes according to Pro 21:2 and both you and I think we are saved, and we both think the other is not. But looking at the Bible as a whole, we know that when we signed on as being one of God's people, we signed on to be obedient for an eternity Charlie. When we leave God, He will leave us. It was nice touching bases again Charlie, and thank you very much for your kind comments sir.
 

Robert Gwin

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Wrong. It was translated by men who had no expertise in Greek or Hebrew and they intentionally altered the Scriptures to their own destruction! YOurs as well if you continue down this path till death.
Why do you think you have come to believe Yeshua is Yahweh Ron? I fully believe if you were honest about it you would have to admit it is a result of the version you have chosen as your Bible
 

Ronald Nolette

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Why do you think you have come to believe Yeshua is Yahweh Ron? I fully believe if you were honest about it you would have to admit it is a result of the version you have chosen as your Bible

Well as the New Word Mistranslation came out in the 1950's Yes nearly all English translations and the Greek and Hebrew all declare Jesus is YHWH the Son! See I also study Greek and Hebrew to more accurately know what was originally said- unlike the wicked false translators of the anonymous Watchtower Committee.

Past President Josef Franz, who had to approve the translating work done, admitted in a court of law, He could not read nor understand Hebrew or Greek! And He is the one who gave the final approval for that abomination to be printed! And the greater tragedy is that you believe it to be a reputable translation!
 

Charlie24

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You understand salvation better than most Charlie, likely you have read about the coming Kingdom Mat 6:10, and how death will be cast into the lake of fire Rev 20:14, but I am thinking that you may not understand the time period sir. The Bible indicates that for those of us who have inherited the earth, will have to be tested, as was Adam and Eve who failed and put us in this position. It will not be until after the millennial reign of Christ that satan will be released to tempt us Charlie. It is very easy to understand and clearly states that. Rev 20:7,8. Notice that the born again Christians who went to heaven gained their salvation, actually immortality when they were resurrected to heaven, as you stated and recorded for us at Rev 20:6, but for the rest of us we do not gain life until we undergo that test, that is why verse 5 stated the rest of us do not come to life until the thousand years have ended. It makes perfect sense Charlie.

You already understand that salvation does not come until after death so far, but for most of us we will not have it until we pass the test, then satan and those who fail that test will be cast into the lake of fire, and the death we inherited from our original parents will be gone forever Rev 20:10; 21:4. Hope this helps sir.

Another thing that you mentioned is knowing we have salvation, the truth is, we cannot know, there would have been absolutely no doubt in Judas mind that he was saved, he was personally selected by Jesus to be his apostle, what a privilege. No doubt until just before he traitored Jesus, he would have thought he had it in the bag. Everyone is basically righteous in his own eyes according to Pro 21:2 and both you and I think we are saved, and we both think the other is not. But looking at the Bible as a whole, we know that when we signed on as being one of God's people, we signed on to be obedient for an eternity Charlie. When we leave God, He will leave us. It was nice touching bases again Charlie, and thank you very much for your kind comments sir.

We are not of the same faith, Robert. There is no way we are reading the same Bible.

If I remember correctly you are JW and have your own Bible, that reads nothing like the one I read.

We have discussed these things on another site some time back.
 

Robert Gwin

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We are not of the same faith, Robert. There is no way we are reading the same Bible.

If I remember correctly you are JW and have your own Bible, that reads nothing like the one I read.

We have discussed these things on another site some time back.
Very true Charlie, but doesn't matter which version you prefer as long as you understand Bible truths. I do believe the NWT is the most accurate version, I do not trust versions that try to leave out God's name, especially when you realize that you have to know God, how many close friends do you have that you don't know their name. I am always willing to discuss the truths of doctrinal issues if you desire sir.
 

Charlie24

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Very true Charlie, but doesn't matter which version you prefer as long as you understand Bible truths. I do believe the NWT is the most accurate version, I do not trust versions that try to leave out God's name, especially when you realize that you have to know God, how many close friends do you have that you don't know their name. I am always willing to discuss the truths of doctrinal issues if you desire sir.

Robert, we are so far apart the only result of discussing will be total disagreement.

The JW's are from another realm of Scriptural understanding.

Of course, you will say the same of mine.
 

Robert Gwin

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Robert, we are so far apart the only result of discussing will be total disagreement.

The JW's are from another realm of Scriptural understanding.

Of course, you will say the same of mine.
I think you believe the Bible is God's word Charlie. And I am sure you are using a Christian Bible, can't really remember, but I think you are, so now a couple of legitimate questions, do you think God accepts all faiths or just one, and if your answer was one, then do you think the Bible identifies the faith sir? If your answer is yes to the second, we agree, so shoot an identifying passage my way, and we will reason on it.