How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?

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How close are we to the seven year tribulation?


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Floyd

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Feb 28, 2014
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keras said:
No Jack, in order for the 'man of perdition' to arise, that is the man to whom Satan will confer his powers, many things must happen first.
The only prophesies in the Bible that give a clear sequence of events, is Revelations Seals, Trumpets and Bowls. Rev 5:1 describes the scroll sealed with seven seals. You cannot place the Seals after the rest, as some do, thinking that all the wrath of God occurs at the Return.
As we are told twice in Zechariah, the first 5 Seals [horsemen] are loosed upon the earth already. We have wars, famines and plagues aplenty and the saints have been killed since 1 AD.
Therefore the next prophesied event we can expect is the Sixth Seal. This sudden and shocking worldwide devastation by a CME sunstrike, will start the countdown to the Return, after all that is prophesied happens; about 15 years later. [about a half hour of heaven time, the Seventh Seal.] 1 Thess 5:3-4 applies to the Sixth Seal event. Would people say: 'All is peaceful' - during the Great Tribulation?
[SIZE=14pt]The Great Tribulation[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Revelation Chap. 7 V9 & V14[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]V.9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]After this I saw, and, behold, (a)a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues,[/SIZE] were standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, (b)clothed with white robes, and (c)palms in their hands;
[SIZE=12pt](a) This multitude is clearly made up of all nations of the world.[/SIZE] This vision is a leap forward showing John and by implication anyone who can "see," that not just Jews are to be in this group, and the events from which they derive, (Isa. 49:6,7.)
[SIZE=12pt](b) "Clothed with white robes;" V.14 below clearly describes the reason for these "white robes." They are worn only[/SIZE] by those people who are persecuted, many to death, for their testimony and faith in Christ Jesus, during the Great Tribulation period. This clearly shows that as the Church of Christ (the true Body) has probably by this time been taken from the earth, that many people are truly converted to Christ in the terrible time of Antichrist rule and Tribulation. It also shows that although the main object of persecution by Antichrist is the Jews, any showing sympathy or kindness to Jews will also be so persecuted. It is interesting to note that the only test for the sheep and goat judgment at the beginning of Millennial by Christ is: "In as much as ye have done it unto one of even the least of these my brethren (Jews,) ye have done it unto Me," (Matt. 25:40.)
[SIZE=12pt](c) "Palms;" the people of Jerusalem held and waved these, when Jesus rode into Jerusalem, crying "Hosanna" meaning "save now" or "help now," (Aramaiac[/SIZE] = Hoshian -An) (Matt. 21:9-15) (Psm. 118:25-26.) The fulfilling on earth for Israel is yet to be, but the event shown to John in heaven is the fulfilment in heaven before the event. The reason for the holding and waving of palms etc., goes back to Lev.23:34-43, which in summary is a celebration of HARVEST, and DELIVERANCE from evil.


[SIZE=12pt]V14[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]And I said unto him, "my[/SIZE] Lord, thou knowest." And he said to me, (a)"These are they who came out of The Great Tribulation, (b)and washed their robes, and made them white by the blood of the Lamb.
[SIZE=12pt](a) See comment on V.9 above. There are many teachers (if not most!) that emphatically state that the ones referred to here are all Christians of all Ages (i.e. different Age times.) One of the justifications for that view is the reference in Rev. 4:1; "After these things," i.e. taught as after the seven churches of Rev. 2 and 3, and implying or stating that at that juncture (i.e. between Chp[/SIZE]. 3 and 4) the Translation of the Church (the Body of Christ) shall have taken place. This seems to be a majority view. However, the writers at this stage in time (Jan. 2001) do not hold to that view. To pivot so emphatically on Rev. 4:1 seems perverse, and stretches or ignores the meanings of [SIZE=12pt]Rev. 1:10 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](see notes,) where "the Day of the Lord (i.e. Jehovah,) to the writers seems the most profound pivot point in time, and is repeatedly referred to throughout the Old Testament, as one of the most profound changes on earth brought about by the Almighty. Also the whole scene is set by Christ before[/SIZE] He addresses the 7 churches, where, predominantly "overcoming" is a repeated exhortation, and specific time is given to "endure" to Smyrna of 10 days! Whereas, specific times are carefully avoided in general in the New Testament, but time given in “days” generally in Scripture refer to troubled times in the context of Israel!
[SIZE=12pt]It is of course held by many not impossible that the Body of Christ is still on earth at that time and that "overcoming" is a later specific to be added to "faith." However, that would fly in the face of earlier teaching, especially by Paul, and would conflict with his writings, which were given veracity by our Lord’s comments “he is a chosen vessel!”[/SIZE] As mentioned above, the writers at this stage hold to the view that "the 7 churches,"[SIZE=12pt] are specific to the 7 year period yet to be enacted of Daniel's vision,[/SIZE] (see Rev. 11:2,) which is in a different Age (administration) of Jehovah, hence Christ’s new instruction and exhortation to them.
[SIZE=12pt]A further view is that the 7 ekklesia[/SIZE], (called out ones) refer to the history of the Jews at their various stages, which is a view developed by men in an attempt to explain the difference to earlier Old Testament standards, but ignores the fact that Christ never has dealt with Israel direct except in the flesh! (see Matt. 15:24 .) It is the failure of men and women to discern the changes in God’s Administrations (Ages,) with their changes of emphasis and rules, that has led, and still leads to wrong understanding and teaching. This leads to good hearted people being locked into wrong understandings and conflicting harmful teaching, with many people despairing. Most teaching groups are now iron-clad, and will not allow anything but their own standard view, even though they do not understand their own teaching, and are themselves confused.
[SIZE=12pt](b) "Washed their robes;"[/SIZE] this profound comment, defines the difference between these people, and the people of the Church (Body) of Christ. In the case of the latter, God sees the individual in Christ, through Christ, through faith alone. In the case of the former, "they wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb," so are accepted by the Father for their works and their faith in God and Christ in the Great Tribulation. Both groups have Christ as Saviour, in different Dispensations.
 

keras

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Floyd, your quote above is obviously taken from a commentary. You should note your source, but anyway why do you believe what they say when 'they do not know what they are talking about or understand the subjects they so dogmatically write on'. 1 Timothy 1:7 Daniel 12:9 tells us the Prophetic Word is to be kept sealed until the time of the end, so unless a commentary was written very recently, do not expect it to enlighten prophecy.
Be aware that Rev 7:14 is correctly translated 'come out of the great ordeal' NOT the Great Tribulation, which happens later, but the 'ordeal' of the Sixth seal, as the placement of this chapter indicates.
The first thing to think about with prophecy, is what is God's plan for our future? Is it just doom and gloom? No there are many prophesies that say how He will bless His righteous people.
Is that only just during the Millennium? No, the 1st Exodus and all that happened then was symbolic and were recorded as an example for us, upon whom the end of the age has come. 1 Cor. 10:1-13
Many scriptures say how there will be a time when the Lord's righteous people will be a 'light to the nations', Isaiah 42:6 and to 'display My glory to the nations'. Ezekiel 39:27 The promises to the Patriarchs WILL be fulfilled.
Only after the rise of the Anti-Christ and all the testing of the people is complete will Jesus Return
 

Floyd

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Floyd, your quote above is obviously taken from a commentary. You should note your source, but anyway why do you believe what they say when 'they do not know what they are talking about or understand the subjects they so dogmatically write on'. 1 Timothy 1:7 Daniel 12:9 tells us the Prophetic Word is to be kept sealed until the time of the end, so unless a commentary was written very recently, do not expect it to enlighten prophecy.

keras: the source is our own work, 10 years ago;
They are our views, which are valid!
The time of the end (Dan.12:9) is open to definition; we happen to believe we are in or close to that period.
Your assumptions are yours!

Be aware that Rev 7:14 is correctly translated 'come out of the great ordeal' NOT the Great Tribulation, which happens later, but the 'ordeal' of the Sixth seal, as the placement of this chapter indicates.

Re. Rev.7:14; the Greek can be "affliction, distress, oppression, tribulation, trouble, persecution" ; depending on context!

The first thing to think about with prophecy, is what is God's plan for our future? Is it just doom and gloom? No there are many prophesies that say how He will bless His righteous people.
Is that only just during the Millennium? No, the 1st Exodus and all that happened then was symbolic and were recorded as an example for us, upon whom the end of the age has come. 1 Cor. 10:1-13


Not sure why you are saying these things. We are aware of what you say!

Many scriptures say how there will be a time when the Lord's righteous people will be a 'light to the nations', Isaiah 42:6 and to 'display My glory to the nations'. Ezekiel 39:27 The promises to the Patriarchs WILL be fulfilled.
Only after the rise of the Anti-Christ and all the testing of the people is complete will Jesus Return


We are on the same page here; you need to read (carefully) all of our work!

The Jew, the Gentile, and Christ: (Separate study)


Floyd.
 

shturt678

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Rev.7:14, "These are the ones coming ut of the tribulation, the great one,...." Source: MY summarization of Sermons and Commentaries from M. Chemnitz (1560) and other works to about 1918, ie, including works translated from High German.

In "the tribulation, the great (one)" all the tribulations mentioned in all the passages that speak of tribulation are combined, and thus with reference to the Church this tribulation of all the ages is rightly called "great." "Great" gathers up all of it. In Acts14:22: "Through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God," the word "many" spreads out the great multitude of tribulations.

Personally from me: The tribulations in the still veiled preliminary miraculous judgments in Rev.8:7-9:21 are surely included (non-miraculous preliminary judgments - Rev.6:2, etc.), ie, in the last period where we are at in today's time would be Rev.9:1-21, eg, possibly this very moment - especially those that fall under IIThess.2:10b now.

btw IIThess.2:11, 12 (Rev.8:7-9:21) has been coming to pass beginning at Lk.21:24 (Rev.11:2, 42 months - 70 A.D. till the "1" forthcoming Parousia, ie, the end.

Old Jack's opinion
 

keras

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Revelation 7:14...they are those who have passed through the great ordeal.... Revised English Bible [1989 Oxford edition]

By saying that refers to the Great Tribulation of the Trumpets and bowls, which starts when the AC places his image in the new Temple, you are causing confusion and error. To place Rev chapter 7 after the GT, means you must scramble the given sequence of seals, trumpets and bowls. Note that the Seventh Seal, Rev 8:1 is AFTER the selection of the 144,000 and the gathering of the vast throng. Rev 7:9.
Read carefully the Sixth Seal - it IS the great DAY of the wrath of God and the Lamb. Many prophesies tell of this literal Day, when God will once again 'reset civilization', just as He did in Noah's day.
When consideration is given to what God is going to achieve down here on earth, then this sequence makes sense - the earth suddenly struck with a firey judgement, - the ungodly and enemies of His people destroyed, - true righteous Israel gather and live in all of the holy Land, - the Gog/Magog attack is wiped out, - the leader of the OWG comes to Beulah and negotiates a 7 year treaty,- he breaks it after 3.5 years and conquers Beulah, triggering the Great Tribulation.- 1260 days later Jesus Returns for His Millennial reign.
The Seventh Seal is a time gap of 'about 16 years earthly time'. This is right for all that is prophesied to happen before the Return, starting with the fulfilment of Psalm 83, the imminent attack upon Israel by its Islamic neighbors, that will call down the Lord's fiery wrath. Ezekiel 7:14
 

shturt678

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keras said:
Revelation 7:14...they are those who have passed through the great ordeal.... Revised English Bible [1989 Oxford edition]

By saying that refers to the Great Tribulation of the Trumpets and bowls, which starts when the AC places his image in the new Temple, you are causing confusion and error. To place Rev chapter 7 after the GT, means you must scramble the given sequence of seals, trumpets and bowls. Note that the Seventh Seal, Rev 8:1 is AFTER the selection of the 144,000 and the gathering of the vast throng. Rev 7:9.
Read carefully the Sixth Seal - it IS the great DAY of the wrath of God and the Lamb. Many prophesies tell of this literal Day, when God will once again 'reset civilization', just as He did in Noah's day.
When consideration is given to what God is going to achieve down here on earth, then this sequence makes sense - the earth suddenly struck with a firey judgement, - the ungodly and enemies of His people destroyed, - true righteous Israel gather and live in all of the holy Land, - the Gog/Magog attack is wiped out, - the leader of the OWG comes to Beulah and negotiates a 7 year treaty,- he breaks it after 3.5 years and conquers Beulah, triggering the Great Tribulation.- 1260 days later Jesus Returns for His Millennial reign.
The Seventh Seal is a time gap of 'about 16 years earthly time'. This is right for all that is prophesied to happen before the Return, starting with the fulfilment of Psalm 83, the imminent attack upon Israel by its Islamic neighbors, that will call down the Lord's fiery wrath. Ezekiel 7:14
Thank you for your response!

Let's take another look at 'which starts when the AC (Antichrist) placing his image in the new temple' in light of IIThess.2:4? A good thing, ie, Biblcial truth in today's full blown apostasy (IIThess.2:3) only can come through 'confusion,' and through a refutable spirit (IITim.3:16). Hopefully both of us are "correctable & refutable."

IIThess.2:4, "...seats himself in the SANCTUARY of God, showing himself off tha the is God." is the truer rendition sir, ie, noting that everywhere in the N.T. where you see naos ("Sanctuary'") in your Interlinear render "Sanctuary," and purge out "temple," (eiron), eg, Rev.11:1 also.

Coherency and lucidity: This AC (Antichrist) has already "which starts" started at the Cross in light of Lk.11:21, 24 & Rev.20:2 - Satan bound, ie, reveals himself as the Antichrist by this pagan act of seating himself in the true God's own Sanctuary (naos), ie, not "temple" (ieron). In the hearts of men today! Not in some future physical 3rd temple in some future era out of touch from reality and us today???

Only a head's up, ie, the visions in Revelation are not sequencial or chronological, ie, there are "7" distinct endings of the world in Revelation thus to be viewed synchronously. For example the miraculous preliminary judgments contained in Rev.8:7-9:21 (coming to pass this very moment) are in sync with the non-miraculous preliminary judgments contained in Rev.6:2, etc. (also coming to pass this moment).
Old Jack that appreciates you and your view sir.
 

keras

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Well Jack, I totally disagree with spiritualizing the Prophetic Word if a literal explanation is possible. By the style of the prophesies, it doesn't seem like a spiritual interpretation is intended, this must come from those who deny what God has planned for His creation.
Sure, in this present age, it can be construed that the "temple' is the Lord's righteous people. But this age is about to close and all the prophesies about what must literally happen will come to pass.
Revelations prophesies are difficult to comprehend, but with the correct idea of end time events, it is possible to obtain a clear picture. The visoions of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls ARE sequential, many times it is said: After that - and then, etc. You are right - the first five Seals are already open. The Sixth Seal, the Great Day of the wrath of God and the Lamb is next and coming very soon. That will be the world changer and only then will most people understand. Isaiah 29:22-24
 

shturt678

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keras said:
Well Jack, I totally disagree with spiritualizing the Prophetic Word if a literal explanation is possible. By the style of the prophesies, it doesn't seem like a spiritual interpretation is intended, this must come from those who deny what God has planned for His creation.
Sure, in this present age, it can be construed that the "temple' is the Lord's righteous people. But this age is about to close and all the prophesies about what must literally happen will come to pass.
Revelations prophesies are difficult to comprehend, but with the correct idea of end time events, it is possible to obtain a clear picture. The visoions of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls ARE sequential, many times it is said: After that - and then, etc. You are right - the first five Seals are already open. The Sixth Seal, the Great Day of the wrath of God and the Lamb is next and coming very soon. That will be the world changer and only then will most people understand. Isaiah 29:22-24
Thank you for your caring and response again!

There is a big difference between the "Spiritualizing Group" and the large group that I'm only a very small part of, ie, the "Prophetic-historical" Interpretation Group."

The "Spiritualizing Group" absolutely does not view Rev.8:7-9:21 as we do, ie, miraculous preliminary judgements from heaven this moment for those that fall under IIThess.2:10b, also possibly this moment?

Old Jack
 

Floyd

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shturt678 said:
Thank you for your caring and response again!

There is a big difference between the "Spiritualizing Group" and the large group that I'm only a very small part of, ie, the "Prophetic-historical" Interpretation Group."

The "Spiritualizing Group" absolutely does not view Rev.8:7-9:21 as we do, ie, miraculous preliminary judgements from heaven this moment for those that fall under IIThess.2:10b, also possibly this moment?

Old Jack

[SIZE=small]CHAPTER 16[/SIZE]


[SIZE=14pt]NOTE:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Now follows here some details of the terrible physical Judgements on the peoples of the Nations on earth, who had and will cause to be rejected, derided and persecuted the people of God prior to Christ's Second Advent; the Jews, and Christians prior to Revelation, and the Ecclesia and Overcomers of Revelation. The details are so horrific in human terms, that in verses 5 and 6, clear justification of God's actions are proclaimed by a loyal angel! It is clear that Almighty God is deeply affected by what He is instigating here, and as The Only Righteous One, His feelings for His Creation, despite its depravity, is deep beyond our ability to fathom! This makes sense and chimes with verse 8 of Chapter 15.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Those humans in the above category that are already dead, must await their just deserts when they are resurrected to Judgement[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] at the "Great White Throne;" (Rev. 20!)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.1[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)And I heard a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great voice out of the[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Temple[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] saying to the[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] seven angels,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] “Go your ways, and[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This command from Jehovah Zebaoth (God of all the earth’s people; [Hosts],) to pour out [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]HIS WRATH,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] upon the earth. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](See Chp. 15:1-5-8.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“Temple;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] see Matt. 23: 16-21, and back references in O.T[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.2 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the first[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] went, and poured out his vial on the earth; and there fell a (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]noisome [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]grievous [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]sore upon the (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]men and women which[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]had the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](d)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]mark of the beast, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](e)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and upon them that worship his image.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“Noisome;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Interlinear translates; (Str. No. 2556,) “injurious,” “bad,” “evil,” “harm,” “ill,” “wicked,” “noisome.” NKJV has "foul and loathsome".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“Grievous;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Interlinear translates; (Str. No. 4190,) “evil,” “degeneracy,” “calamitous,” “diseased.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](c)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] “Men;” Interlinear translates; (Str. No. 444,) (Greek ANTHROPOS,) “a human being,” therefore both male and female![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](d)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] See earlier chapters, 13, 14, (particularly 14:9,10,11 and notes.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](e)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] May or may not be marked, but worship “his image,” i.e. worship Satan! See Chps. 13 and 14.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.3 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the second [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]angel poured out his vial [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]on the sea; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and it became the (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]blood of a dead[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]man:[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and every living (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]soul died in the sea.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Blood putrefies after death, and accelerates the decomposition process. In this case it would impede all sea life. As our planet relies on the oceans for cleansing and survival, the meaning seems obvious. Almighty God is stepping up the pressure on humankind in the context of "His Wrath."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] “Soul;” translates; (Str. No. 5590) (Greek PSUCHE.) This has many meanings depending on the case; here, the meaning is “creature,” (App. 110,1,2.) See Rev. 6:9, and 20:13(b.)[/SIZE] See also Gen. 2:7, and [SIZE=12pt]Soul and Spirit, The Error:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.4 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)And [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the third [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]angel poured out his vial on[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] the rivers and fountains of waters and they became blood.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] All water, land and sea, turned to blood, therefore as all people need water more than food, a terrifying immediate prospect of death, (i.e. days only!) (Matt. 24:22) (Mark 13:20.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)And I heard [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the angel of the waters[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]say, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"Thou art righteous, O Lord, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]which [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]art,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]wast,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and shall be,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]because Thou hast judged thus.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Approval and confirmation of Jehovah God’s act, by heavenly creation, (who understand!)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]See 7(a.) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.6 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Thou hast given them blood to drink: for they are worthy.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) This retribution on these peoples is for the clearly stated killing (murder) of Jews and Gentiles during the Age of Revelation and previously, who trust in Christ, have "[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]washed their robes in the blood of The Lamb,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and have "overcome unto death." When our Lord spoke to His people the Jews during His first Advent; He referred to their persecution of those prophets He had sent to them, and the resulting judgement on them at their resurrection. He showed also[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"that the Owner of the vineyard sent his Son whom they put to death!"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt](Matt. 2:34-35, etc.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.7 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)And I heard[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] the angel of the alter[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]say,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] “Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgements.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) In Ephesians 3:10, Paul the great Apostle to the Gentiles, shows the importance of the church (The True Body) and its example/ witness to heavenly beings/ creation. Here one of those beings is confirming that though terrible, the judgement and retribution Jehovah God has wreaked on the remaining human population is[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] just and beyond reproach![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.8 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]fourth angel [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]poured out his vial on the sun; and power was given unto him to [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]scorch men with fire.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And men were scorched with great heat, and (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]blasphemed the name of God, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Which hath power over these plagues: [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and they repented not to give Him[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Glory. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Despite the fact that people by then know who has control of all power; and that even then they can acknowledge and praise Him, they choose[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] to blaspheme His name! See note 14:1(c.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] “Glory;” Interlinear translates (Str. No. 1391) (Greek DOXA,) “dignity,” “honour,” “glory,” “praise,” “Worship;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] then, as now, people prefer Satan in the majority![/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]This has to do with the pride of men in their Genesis acquired powers, (Gen.3:5,) which are enhanced by Satan when people move towards him. The further people move in his direction, the harder it is for them to turn to God their maker through Christ. It is possible to turn to Christ and obtain salvation, and that is an act of will and contrition at the foot of The Cross which expunges Satan from the person. From then on the walk with Christ is a day by day experience, which is aided by The Lord's Spirit! This is only possible during this present Age of Grace. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.10 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]fifth angel[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] poured out his vial [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]on the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]seat of the beast; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and his (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]tongues for pain.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“Seat;”[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Interlinear translates throne, (Str. No. 2362.) See Chp. 2:12-13, and notes. This verse and its references [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]to the throne of Satan at Pergamum[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] indicating that the 7 churches (ecclesia) are yet future (11/4/03.) (Revised 22/8/07.) (Revised 2012.) (Revised 2014.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Satan’s kingdom, based in Pergamum, present day Turkey; but is worldwide; See Chp. 18, and see [/SIZE] Babylon [SIZE=medium](Separate study ) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]and[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium] Mystery Babylon: (Separate study)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.11 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]blasphemed [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Again the same old reaction blasphemy and lack of repentance! [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]See14:1(c,) Matt. 23 etc.http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter14.html#The Name of Christ is reviled,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.12 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]sixth angel[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] poured out his vial on the great river (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Euphrates;[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]kings [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]of the east might be prepared.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] See Chp. 9:14-16, and notes.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] See Chp. 9: in total and notes. "Kings of the east." The literal translation, "kings of the rising sun!" This statement brings into play the thought of "kings" farther east than Persia (Iran,) and the capacity to produce a 200,000,000 man army, if that number is correct, which seems to be the case![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.13 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And I saw three [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]unclean spirits[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]like frogs come out of the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]mouth of the dragon,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and out of the[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] mouth of the beast,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and out of the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]mouth of the false prophet.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.14 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]For they are spirits of[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]demons, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of the great day of GOD THE ALMIGHTY.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] These demonic messengers, one from each of the false trinity, go to the Satanically powerful kings of the earth[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]to bring them to the battle (Armageddon See V.16,) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and the great day of Almighty God, on the battlefield in Israel (Armageddon.) (Megiddo.); approx. 70miles north of Jerusalem.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.15 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] keepeth his garments,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] lest he walk naked, and they [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]see his shame[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] The implication here is that the signs are there to be seen! The event will be sudden, but predictable [/SIZE](see Matt. 24.)

[SIZE=14pt]V.16[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]He/they[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] gathered [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Armageddon.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] “He;” the 1611 translators for C. of E. again in error. This “he:” should be with the capital H to mean “He[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt],” i.e. Almighty God. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The Interlinear has the correction. However; as the reference is to V.14, the demons, the purpose is the gathering together of the nations to war/annihilate the people of Israel at 'Har-mageddon' (Armageddon.) Although the demons by implication are the agents, 'He' (Jehovah God) is in control because it is taking place in the "Day of Jehovah" (Rev. 1:10.) Also the process of "the vials" is underway V.12, which is under the control of "the Lamb who is Worthy," Rev. 5:9.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]As a note of interest, AV gives "he," Darby "he," NIV "they," Youngs Literal "they," Moffatt "they were mustered" (referring to the nations,) Interlinear "He," NKJV "they."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b) “Armageddon;” (Har-Megeddon,) this word means “mount of Megiddo,” (Comp. page 1905.) See Judges 5:19, Isa. 10:28. It is located in the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]YEZREEL VALLEY.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]It has been a battlefield between kingdoms for more than 4000 years B.C.! It is mentioned in various ancient writings including the Pharaoh Thutmose 3rd (1500 B.C.) The king of Megiddo was one of the kings defeated by Joshua (Josh. 12:21.) The city of Megiddo did not become of the tribal allotments until King David. General Allenby fought and won a battle with the Turks there, (Ottoman Empire) and received the title of “Lord of Megiddo” for that victory in the First World War. It lies approx. 70 miles due north of Jerusalem! [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Note (2012) (2014)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The Ottomans were part of the German 'Axis' in the 1914-18 war, and as their southern flank, was crucial to the outcome. Allenby gave his support for the state of Israel together with Winston Churchill, and T.E. Lawrence. It is not generally known that Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia,) was so involved with this effort, as so much of his life is unknown, due in part to many of his roles for the Government. Government Papers released so far show his very active role in trying to establish a 'State of Israel with Churchill and Allenby.' Allenby commented that "without Lawrence's efforts with the Arabs during the 1914-18 war, we could not have won!"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The historian Sir Martin Gilbert stated of Lawrence "he was a serious Zionist." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Thus the 1914-18 war paved the way for the 1948 League of Nation's sanction of the 'Jewish State,' and the events still current leading from the temporal State, to that of the one of prophecy, in the yet future.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]As is well known, Pergamum is now in Turkey (which is currently looking less politically stable) . The recent events of the ‘Arab Spring,” started in early 2011, and is now encompassing most the countries named in the Bible that are involved in the ‘end times’ regarding Israel. Turkey has recently cooled its relationship with Israel, and is in early conflict with Syria. Syrian conflict has escalated recently. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The Caucuses and Russia are on the fringes of these developments; and the recent discovery of oil off the coast of Israel is causing Turkey and Cyprus to explore their waters to see if they have oil wealth. There is clearly plenty of motive force to expand hostilities in this volatile area, with Israel central! The reparations of the 1st World War in the area under General Allenby, Winston Churchill and T.E. Lawrence leading to the 1948 State of Israel, and the division of Arab lands has clearly farther to go, and will lead into the prophetic land of Israel and the Reign of God on earth, as per the ‘Lord’s Prayer!’[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.17[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]seventh angel [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]poured out his vial [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]into the air; and there came a (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great voice out of the Temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “IT IS DONE.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]“Great voice;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]God Almighty,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] from the throne[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] “IT IS DONE.” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]This great climax in the dealing with mankind,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]this point ends the rule of man[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]. (Joel 2:11.) See "Use and Abuse of Joel's Prophecy" now "Joel Prophecy: Past and Future", Mike Penny, (www.obt.org.uk.) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Our Lord said [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]“It is finished,” (John 19:30,) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]when He had completed the work on the cross of Calvary. At the point where the Father states “It is done,”[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] our Lord’s enemies are made His footstool.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Psm. 110:1, Matt. 22:44, Mark 12:36, Heb. 10:13.)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]This is just prior to Christ’s rule from Jerusalem when He and His Father’s name will be one, (Zech. 14:9.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Charles Welch makes the interesting point in his book 'This Prophecy' on page 196, that the 7th angel pouring out his vial "into the air," is dealing with Satan himself; as "the prince of the authority of the air" (Eph. 2:2).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt] V.18 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And there were[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] voices[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]thunders, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]lightnings; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and there was a (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) There have been very great earthquakes in man’s recorded history, but this one yet to be will be the largest ever in man’s time on earth. Science knows the great devastations that have happened in the past, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](See: Velikoski "World in Upheaval,”)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] but this one surpasses them all[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] (See note at the beginning of Chapter 9.) As is known from Scripture (Zech. 14:8, Ezk. 47:8 and other verses of those Chapters) at some stage in the future prior to the Millennial Reign, Jerusalem will apparently become a sea port. This is possibly due to the great earth quake quoted in verse 18, however, as the reading of the above text show the water apparently flows from the site of the Temple in Jerusalem, and is fresh! There is also the statement that the Dead Sea is "healed," which almost certainly means that it will support marine life. As at present the Dead Sea is approx. 1300 ft below Sea level, the volume of water flowing from Jerusalem clearly will be very large. As Jerusalem is inland from the Mediterranean Sea and is approximately 700 metres above current sea level, the possibility is that the same earth quake will reduce the height quoted, (Isa.40:4); or Jerusalem will sit at that future time high above the sea port that will exist. It seems that the new sea way would run from the Mediterranean from West to East via Jerusalem to the Dead Sea flowing south eventually into the Gulf of Aqaba and on into the Red Sea.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.19[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great city was divided into three parts,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and the (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]cities of the nation's fell; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] “The great city;” Jerusalem.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](b)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“Cities of the nation's fell;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]unimaginable devastation as New York, Toronto, Boston, London, Sydney, Tokyo, to name a few, the skyscrapers falling, the panic, the destruction, the desolation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](c)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“Great Babylon;” the source of all the world’s pagan religions and Satanic systems, (see Dan. 4:30,) (Gen. 10:10,) (Gen. 11:9.) See also earlier notes.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.20 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And every (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]island [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]fled away, and the mountains were not found. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The result of the great quake, will be no mountains, and movement of the world's islands! Knowing as we do today that land masses are floating on a sea of molten rock, the violence of the upheavals will possibly push land masses together, as in the ancient past. (Isa. 24:19-23.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.21[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And there[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]talent:[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and men (b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]blasphemed God [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“Talent;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] about 114 lbs. (approx. 52 KG.) Obviously deadly[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](b)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] The usual response from totally unredeemable people. See14:1(c.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=24pt]Go to chapters 1 to 22, or[/SIZE]
 

shturt678

New Member
Feb 9, 2013
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Floyd said:
[SIZE=small][/SIZE]

CHAPTER 16



[SIZE=14pt]NOTE:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Now follows here some details of the terrible physical Judgements on the peoples of the Nations on earth, who had and will cause to be rejected, derided and persecuted the people of God prior to Christ's Second Advent; the Jews, and Christians prior to Revelation, and the Ecclesia and Overcomers of Revelation. The details are so horrific in human terms, that in verses 5 and 6, clear justification of God's actions are proclaimed by a loyal angel! It is clear that Almighty God is deeply affected by what He is instigating here, and as The Only Righteous One, His feelings for His Creation, despite its depravity, is deep beyond our ability to fathom! This makes sense and chimes with verse 8 of Chapter 15.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Those humans in the above category that are already dead, must await their just deserts when they are resurrected to Judgement[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] at the "Great White Throne;" (Rev. 20!)[/SIZE]


Jack: Thank you for your response and caring again!

[SIZE=14pt][/SIZE]
V.1
[SIZE=14pt](a)And I heard a [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great voice out of the[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Temple[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] saying to the[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] seven angels,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] “Go your ways, and[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] This command from Jehovah Zebaoth (God of all the earth’s people; [Hosts],) to pour out [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]HIS WRATH,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] upon the earth. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](See Chp. 15:1-5-8.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]( B)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“Temple;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] see Matt. 23: 16-21, and back references in O.T[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt].[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

Jack: First we need a valid rendition Rev.16:1, "...out of the Sanctuary.." Not "temple." Matt.23:16, "by the Sanctuary," and not "temple." Not nit picking as changes the interpretation too many times rendering an inferior rendition, eg, Rev.11:1, "Sanctuary" as critical here for sure today.

[SIZE=14pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the first[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] went, and poured out his vial on the earth; and there fell a (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]noisome [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]grievous [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]sore upon the (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]men and women which[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]had the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](d)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]mark of the beast, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](e)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and upon them that worship his image.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“Noisome;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Interlinear translates; (Str. No. 2556,) “injurious,” “bad,” “evil,” “harm,” “ill,” “wicked,” “noisome.” NKJV has "foul and loathsome".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]( B)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“Grievous;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Interlinear translates; (Str. No. 4190,) “evil,” “degeneracy,” “calamitous,” “diseased.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](c)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] “Men;” Interlinear translates; (Str. No. 444,) (Greek ANTHROPOS,) “a human being,” therefore both male and female![/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](d)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] See earlier chapters, 13, 14, (particularly 14:9,10,11 and notes.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](e)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] May or may not be marked, but worship “his image,” i.e. worship Satan! See Chps. 13 and 14.[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]

Jack: We cannot think of a physical ulcer that afflicted the physical bodies of antichristians prior to the "1" forthcoming Parousia of our Lord for example. We need to remember that an "ulcer" often opens and discharges corruption that has accumulated in the body. This we take to be the antichristianity which, by the divine blow, breaks out in virulent, painful, outward discharge.

[SIZE=14pt][/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the second [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]angel poured out his vial [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]on the sea; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and it became the (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]blood of a dead[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]man:[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and every living ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]soul died in the sea.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Blood putrefies after death, and accelerates the decomposition process. In this case it would impede all sea life. As our planet relies on the oceans for cleansing and survival, the meaning seems obvious. Almighty God is stepping up the pressure on humankind in the context of "His Wrath."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] “Soul;” translates; (Str. No. 5590) (Greek PSUCHE.) This has many meanings depending on the case; here, the meaning is “creature,” (App. 110,1,2.) See Rev. 6:9, and 20:13(b.)[/SIZE] See also Gen. 2:7, and [SIZE=12pt]Soul and Spirit, The Error:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.4 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)And [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the third [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]angel poured out his vial on[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] the rivers and fountains of waters and they became blood.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] All water, land and sea, turned to blood, therefore as all people need water more than food, a terrifying immediate prospect of death, (i.e. days only!) (Matt. 24:22) (Mark 13:20.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)And I heard [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the angel of the waters[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]say, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]"Thou art righteous, O Lord, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]which [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]art,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]wast,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and shall be,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]because Thou hast judged thus.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Approval and confirmation of Jehovah God’s act, by heavenly creation, (who understand!)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]See 7(a.) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.6 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Thou hast given them blood to drink: for they are worthy.[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) This retribution on these peoples is for the clearly stated killing (murder) of Jews and Gentiles during the Age of Revelation and previously, who trust in Christ, have "[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]washed their robes in the blood of The Lamb,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]"[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] and have "overcome unto death." When our Lord spoke to His people the Jews during His first Advent; He referred to their persecution of those prophets He had sent to them, and the resulting judgement on them at their resurrection. He showed also[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]"that the Owner of the vineyard sent his Son whom they put to death!"[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt](Matt. 2:34-35, etc.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.7 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)And I heard[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] the angel of the alter[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]say,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] “Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are Thy judgements.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) In Ephesians 3:10, Paul the great Apostle to the Gentiles, shows the importance of the church (The True Body) and its example/ witness to heavenly beings/ creation. Here one of those beings is confirming that though terrible, the judgement and retribution Jehovah God has wreaked on the remaining human population is[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] just and beyond reproach![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.8 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]fourth angel [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]poured out his vial on the sun; and power was given unto him to [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]scorch men with fire.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And men were scorched with great heat, and (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]blasphemed the name of God, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Which hath power over these plagues: [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and they repented not to give Him[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Glory. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Despite the fact that people by then know who has control of all power; and that even then they can acknowledge and praise Him, they choose[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] to blaspheme His name! See note 14:1(c.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] “Glory;” Interlinear translates (Str. No. 1391) (Greek DOXA,) “dignity,” “honour,” “glory,” “praise,” “Worship;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] then, as now, people prefer Satan in the majority![/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]This has to do with the pride of men in their Genesis acquired powers, (Gen.3:5,) which are enhanced by Satan when people move towards him. The further people move in his direction, the harder it is for them to turn to God their maker through Christ. It is possible to turn to Christ and obtain salvation, and that is an act of will and contrition at the foot of The Cross which expunges Satan from the person. From then on the walk with Christ is a day by day experience, which is aided by The Lord's Spirit! This is only possible during this present Age of Grace. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.10 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]fifth angel[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] poured out his vial [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]on the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]seat of the beast; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and his ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]tongues for pain.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“Seat;”[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Interlinear translates throne, (Str. No. 2362.) See Chp. 2:12-13, and notes. This verse and its references [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]to the throne of Satan at Pergamum[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt],[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] indicating that the 7 churches (ecclesia) are yet future (11/4/03.) (Revised 22/8/07.) (Revised 2012.) (Revised 2014.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]( B)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]Satan’s kingdom, based in Pergamum, present day Turkey; but is worldwide; See Chp. 18, and see [/SIZE] Babylon [SIZE=medium](Separate study ) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]and[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium] Mystery Babylon: (Separate study)[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.11 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]blasphemed [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Again the same old reaction blasphemy and lack of repentance! [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]See14:1(c,) Matt. 23 etc.http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/chapter14.html#The Name of Christ is reviled,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.12 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]sixth angel[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] poured out his vial on the great river (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Euphrates;[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]kings [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]of the east might be prepared.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] See Chp. 9:14-16, and notes.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] See Chp. 9: in total and notes. "Kings of the east." The literal translation, "kings of the rising sun!" This statement brings into play the thought of "kings" farther east than Persia (Iran,) and the capacity to produce a 200,000,000 man army, if that number is correct, which seems to be the case![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.13 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And I saw three [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]unclean spirits[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]like frogs come out of the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]mouth of the dragon,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and out of the[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] mouth of the beast,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and out of the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]mouth of the false prophet.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.14 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]For they are spirits of[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]demons, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth, and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of the great day of GOD THE ALMIGHTY.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] These demonic messengers, one from each of the false trinity, go to the Satanically powerful kings of the earth[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt], [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]to bring them to the battle (Armageddon See V.16,) [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and the great day of Almighty God, on the battlefield in Israel (Armageddon.) (Megiddo.); approx. 70miles north of Jerusalem.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.15 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] keepeth his garments,[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] lest he walk naked, and they [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]see his shame[/SIZE][SIZE=13.5pt].[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) [/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] The implication here is that the signs are there to be seen! The event will be sudden, but predictable [/SIZE](see Matt. 24.)

[SIZE=14pt]V.16[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]He/they[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] gathered [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]Armageddon.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] “He;” the 1611 translators for C. of E. again in error. This “he:” should be with the capital H to mean “He[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt],” i.e. Almighty God. [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]The Interlinear has the correction. However; as the reference is to V.14, the demons, the purpose is the gathering together of the nations to war/annihilate the people of Israel at 'Har-mageddon' (Armageddon.) Although the demons by implication are the agents, 'He' (Jehovah God) is in control because it is taking place in the "Day of Jehovah" (Rev. 1:10.) Also the process of "the vials" is underway V.12, which is under the control of "the Lamb who is Worthy," Rev. 5:9.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]As a note of interest, AV gives "he," Darby "he," NIV "they," Youngs Literal "they," Moffatt "they were mustered" (referring to the nations,) Interlinear "He," NKJV "they."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]( B) “Armageddon;” (Har-Megeddon,) this word means “mount of Megiddo,” (Comp. page 1905.) See Judges 5:19, Isa. 10:28. It is located in the[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]YEZREEL VALLEY.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]It has been a battlefield between kingdoms for more than 4000 years B.C.! It is mentioned in various ancient writings including the Pharaoh Thutmose 3rd (1500 B.C.) The king of Megiddo was one of the kings defeated by Joshua (Josh. 12:21.) The city of Megiddo did not become of the tribal allotments until King David. General Allenby fought and won a battle with the Turks there, (Ottoman Empire) and received the title of “Lord of Megiddo” for that victory in the First World War. It lies approx. 70 miles due north of Jerusalem! [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Note (2012) (2014)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The Ottomans were part of the German 'Axis' in the 1914-18 war, and as their southern flank, was crucial to the outcome. Allenby gave his support for the state of Israel together with Winston Churchill, and T.E. Lawrence. It is not generally known that Lawrence (Lawrence of Arabia,) was so involved with this effort, as so much of his life is unknown, due in part to many of his roles for the Government. Government Papers released so far show his very active role in trying to establish a 'State of Israel with Churchill and Allenby.' Allenby commented that "without Lawrence's efforts with the Arabs during the 1914-18 war, we could not have won!"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]The historian Sir Martin Gilbert stated of Lawrence "he was a serious Zionist." [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Thus the 1914-18 war paved the way for the 1948 League of Nation's sanction of the 'Jewish State,' and the events still current leading from the temporal State, to that of the one of prophecy, in the yet future.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]As is well known, Pergamum is now in Turkey (which is currently looking less politically stable) . The recent events of the ‘Arab Spring,” started in early 2011, and is now encompassing most the countries named in the Bible that are involved in the ‘end times’ regarding Israel. Turkey has recently cooled its relationship with Israel, and is in early conflict with Syria. Syrian conflict has escalated recently. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The Caucuses and Russia are on the fringes of these developments; and the recent discovery of oil off the coast of Israel is causing Turkey and Cyprus to explore their waters to see if they have oil wealth. There is clearly plenty of motive force to expand hostilities in this volatile area, with Israel central! The reparations of the 1st World War in the area under General Allenby, Winston Churchill and T.E. Lawrence leading to the 1948 State of Israel, and the division of Arab lands has clearly farther to go, and will lead into the prophetic land of Israel and the Reign of God on earth, as per the ‘Lord’s Prayer!’[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.17[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]seventh angel [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]poured out his vial [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]into the air; and there came a (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great voice out of the Temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “IT IS DONE.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]“Great voice;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]God Almighty,[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] from the throne[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] “IT IS DONE.” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]This great climax in the dealing with mankind,[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]this point ends the rule of man[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]. (Joel 2:11.) See "Use and Abuse of Joel's Prophecy" now "Joel Prophecy: Past and Future", Mike Penny, (www.obt.org.uk.) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Our Lord said [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]“It is finished,” (John 19:30,) [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]when He had completed the work on the cross of Calvary. At the point where the Father states “It is done,”[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] our Lord’s enemies are made His footstool.[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]Psm. 110:1, Matt. 22:44, Mark 12:36, Heb. 10:13.)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]This is just prior to Christ’s rule from Jerusalem when He and His Father’s name will be one, (Zech. 14:9.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] Charles Welch makes the interesting point in his book 'This Prophecy' on page 196, that the 7th angel pouring out his vial "into the air," is dealing with Satan himself; as "the prince of the authority of the air" (Eph. 2:2).[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt] V.18 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And there were[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] voices[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt], and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]thunders, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]lightnings; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and there was a (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a) There have been very great earthquakes in man’s recorded history, but this one yet to be will be the largest ever in man’s time on earth. Science knows the great devastations that have happened in the past, [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt](See: Velikoski "World in Upheaval,”)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] but this one surpasses them all[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt].[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] (See note at the beginning of Chapter 9.) As is known from Scripture (Zech. 14:8, Ezk. 47:8 and other verses of those Chapters) at some stage in the future prior to the Millennial Reign, Jerusalem will apparently become a sea port. This is possibly due to the great earth quake quoted in verse 18, however, as the reading of the above text show the water apparently flows from the site of the Temple in Jerusalem, and is fresh! There is also the statement that the Dead Sea is "healed," which almost certainly means that it will support marine life. As at present the Dead Sea is approx. 1300 ft below Sea level, the volume of water flowing from Jerusalem clearly will be very large. As Jerusalem is inland from the Mediterranean Sea and is approximately 700 metres above current sea level, the possibility is that the same earth quake will reduce the height quoted, (Isa.40:4); or Jerusalem will sit at that future time high above the sea port that will exist. It seems that the new sea way would run from the Mediterranean from West to East via Jerusalem to the Dead Sea flowing south eventually into the Gulf of Aqaba and on into the Red Sea.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.19[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And the (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great city was divided into three parts,[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]and the ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]cities of the nation's fell; [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]and (c)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt] “The great city;” Jerusalem.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]( B)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“Cities of the nation's fell;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]unimaginable devastation as New York, Toronto, Boston, London, Sydney, Tokyo, to name a few, the skyscrapers falling, the panic, the destruction, the desolation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt](c)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“Great Babylon;” the source of all the world’s pagan religions and Satanic systems, (see Dan. 4:30,) (Gen. 10:10,) (Gen. 11:9.) See also earlier notes.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.20 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And every (a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]island [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]fled away, and the mountains were not found. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] The result of the great quake, will be no mountains, and movement of the world's islands! Knowing as we do today that land masses are floating on a sea of molten rock, the violence of the upheavals will possibly push land masses together, as in the ancient past. (Isa. 24:19-23.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]V.21[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]And there[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt]fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a[/SIZE] [SIZE=14pt](a)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]talent:[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] and men ( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]blasphemed God [/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt](a)[/SIZE] [SIZE=12pt]“Talent;” [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] about 114 lbs. (approx. 52 KG.) Obviously deadly[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt].[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]( B)[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] The usual response from totally unredeemable people. See14:1(c.)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=24pt]Go to chapters 1 to 22, or[/SIZE]

[SIZE=24pt]Jack: Sorry, kind of new at this posting ministry, however you and I will have to agree to disagree - we have extremely different views of Revelation, ie, not that my view is valid.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=24pt]Old Jack,[/SIZE]

Appreciated all your work.
 

keras

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Floyd, I agree with Jack, not that your take on the Revelation events is entirely wrong, but that it is not good to post lengthy chapters of a published book on a forum. The Vial punishments will happen in the latter part of the Seventieth Week, but the OP of this thread is 'How close is that week?
From my intensive study of Biblical prophecy, I believe that we are still about 10 years from the time the Anti-Christ [leader of the OWG] comes to Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, and makes a treaty with them, commencing the last seven years before the Return of Jesus circa 2030. That being 2000 years from when He was last on earth. Luke 13:32
 

Floyd

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shturt678 said:
Jack: Thank you for your response and caring again!

[SIZE=24pt]Jack: Sorry, kind of new at this posting ministry, however you and I will have to agree to disagree - we have extremely different views of Revelation, ie, not that my view is valid.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=24pt]Old Jack,[/SIZE]

Appreciated all your work.



We agree to disagree Jack!
Floyd.
 

shturt678

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Thank you folks again for caring!

I think for our children's sake that hear our views, we should understand that there is an exponential probability that we are nearing the end of the "Tribulation, the great one" where Rev.16:12, etc. is about to come to pass with Satan's personal loosing. Too many are projecting this off to some future era along with 'all is well' with us today?

Only old Jack's two-bits
 

Floyd

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shturt678 said:
Thank you folks again for caring!

I think for our children's sake that hear our views, we should understand that there is an exponential probability that we are nearing the end of the "Tribulation, the great one" where Rev.16:12, etc. is about to come to pass with Satan's personal loosing. Too many are projecting this off to some future era along with 'all is well' with us today?

Only old Jack's two-bits
My children (4) are all grown and flown.
They make their own decisions; not for you to worry about Jack.
Keep prayerfully studying the word.
Floyd.
 

DaDad

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shturt678 said:
... we are nearing the end of the "Tribulation, ...

To All,

I would propose that we are approximately one year from the BEGINNING of the 42 month Tribulation per Rev. 13:5, -- versus the falsely taught "seven years" which is based upon an incorrect rendering of Daniel 9.


With Best Regards,
DD
 

shturt678

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DaDad said:
To All,

I would propose that we are approximately one year from the BEGINNING of the 42 month Tribulation per Rev. 13:5, -- versus the falsely taught "seven years" which is based upon an incorrect rendering of Daniel 9.


With Best Regards,
DD
Thank you for your reponse again!

Only from a lower paygrade level: There are three beginnings: The "1,000 years" that began at the Cross, Savior's Resurrection, and Enthronement, Rev.12:5-9 (vs.1, 2); 20:1-6 and ends at Rev.20:7.

The N. T. Era began at Matt.26:28 and ends at the Parousia, Rev.20:9-10.

The "42 months" began at 70 A.D. (Lk.21:24) and ends also at the future "1" Parousia, Rev.20:9-10.

Old lowest paygrade Jack's view
 

DaDad

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shturt678 said:
The "42 months" began at 70 A.D.
Hi shturt678,

An interesting take on how the one-world-government will have dominion, -- which apparently ended in ~73 A.D.

Do you perhaps reside in Colorado?



With Best Regards,
DD
 

Floyd

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DaDad said:
To All,

I would propose that we are approximately one year from the BEGINNING of the 42 month Tribulation per Rev. 13:5, -- versus the falsely taught "seven years" which is based upon an incorrect rendering of Daniel 9.


With Best Regards,
DD
Interestingly close to 2018, the 70th anniversary of the state of Israel.
Floyd.
 
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DaDad

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Floyd said:
Interestingly close to 2018, the 70th anniversary of the state of Israel.
Floyd.
Hi Floyd,

If you are familiar with the concept proposed by J.R. Church in his book "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms", you might consider that Psalms 118 (Book 19, Chapter 118 = 1900s + 118 = 2018) is the absolute middle Chapter in the Bible. Furthermore, Psalms 117 is the absolute shortest Chapter in the Bible, and Psalms 119 is the absolute longest Chapter in the Bible.

Coincidence or DESIGN?!?


With Best Regards,
DD
 

Floyd

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DaDad said:
Hi Floyd,

If you are familiar with the concept proposed by J.R. Church in his book "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms", you might consider that Psalms 118 (Book 19, Chapter 118 = 1900s + 118 = 2018) is the absolute middle Chapter in the Bible. Furthermore, Psalms 117 is the absolute shortest Chapter in the Bible, and Psalms 119 is the absolute longest Chapter in the Bible.

Coincidence or DESIGN?!?


With Best Regards,
DD
No, I am not aware of J.R. Church, or his Book.
The points you make I want to look at.
As regards Scripture, all is Design in my opinion!
Thanks, Floyd.