How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?

[tgwprophet]

Hi Terry,

For a simple concept, please consider the parallel to the Genesis week (i.e., 7-days):


1. Adam & Eve were created ~4,000 B.C.

2. Man earns his way by the sweat of his brow. Thus the end of the six days are six thousand years, arriving to ~2,000 A.D.

3. The day of rest is the Millennial Kingdom (where Satan is no longer tempting mankind). It starts at ~2,000 A.D., and ends at ~3,000 A.D.


Thus we see GOD's perfect number of seven completed for the affairs of creation on earth. The New Jerusalem shall be eternal.


BibleScribe

I understand that concept and am not against it... It is the use of the "70 weeks" as a base I have issue with. The 70 weeks always been used to discover the wrong time frames of events leading to Tribulation. More often than not, the placement of the Stopping of the Daily Sacrifice and the Abomination of Desolation occuring at the same time is an error. Start with the Abomination of Desolation as a base and work back and forth.... just as Sripture does. In David it says the beast does both - stops the Daily Sacrifice and commits the Abomination of Desolation - only some translations went further to claim they are done at the same time . Simple translation error. Scripture tells s there is 1,290 days between them.

 

[tgwprophet]

Hi Terry,

The only time of our gathering to Christ Jesus is at His time of coming on the 7th Trumpet. I've been discussing this with others also about the 7th Vial, which is when Christ comes paralleled to the 7th Trumpet. We are all going to be here on earth to that 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial, and afterwards also. Just as the children of Israel were on earth when God put the plagues upon Egypt, we also will be here through those Vials. Christ is bringing Heaven here; we don't have to leave this earth when His comes.

God's OT prophets, our Lord Jesus, and His Apostles, all showed that Christ's coming will end the tribulation upon His saints, and will destroy His enemies and their beast kingdom upon the earth. It will come suddenly, at an instant, within one hour. At that instant with Christ's coming, all still alive upon the earth will changed to the resurrection body, the wicked too. That change to the spiritual body is required for us to be gathered to Christ where He will return (to Jerusalem). That change involves everyone alive on earth at that same moment (John 5:29).

I certainly agree with most of what you have written.. As far as a need for a Physical Planet for a Spiritual body is concerned that i have some issue with. My understaanding is that the earth will be re-populated with people in the physical form, by people "of" a physical form "And the lion shall lay with the lamb" (not verbatum). It is a good thing we discuss these things as it enables us to be diligent. It is a wonderous thing that prophecy is not easily understood.

 

[BibleScribe]

I understand that concept and am not against it... It is the use of the "70 weeks" as a base I have issue with. The 70 weeks always been used to discover the wrong time frames of events leading to Tribulation. More often than not, the placement of the Stopping of the Daily Sacrifice and the Abomination of Desolation occuring at the same time is an error. Start with the Abomination of Desolation as a base and work back and forth.... just as Sripture does. In David it says the beast does both - stops the Daily Sacrifice and commits the Abomination of Desolation - only some translations went further to claim they are done at the same time . Simple translation error. Scripture tells s there is 1,290 days between them.

Hi Terry,

If the Truth of Scripture were understood, one should discover that the seventy has NOTHING to do whatsoever with ANY of the events which the commentators purport, (Ref. Pg.2, Post #51). So the FIRST concern should be to resolve what the seventy shabuim/shabuwa (singular/plural respectively) attempt to convey. And it's NOT the tribulation (which is 42 months according to Revelation 13:5), neither is it a prophecy regarding Jesus. -- It's a prophecy for the end-time nation of Israel.


BibleScribe

 

[tomwebster]

I understand that concept and am not against it... It is the use of the "70 weeks" as a base I have issue with. The 70 weeks always been used to discover the wrong time frames of events leading to Tribulation. More often than not, the placement of the Stopping of the Daily Sacrifice and the Abomination of Desolation occuring at the same time is an error. Start with the Abomination of Desolation as a base and work back and forth.... just as Sripture does. In David it says the beast does both - stops the Daily Sacrifice and commits the Abomination of Desolation - only some translations went further to claim they are done at the same time . Simple translation error. Scripture tells s there is 1,290 days between them.

I think you meant Daniel.

 

[Foreigner]

I have the very first cell phone I ever purchased sitting on my desk. It is from 1997.

(I was slow to jump on the cell phone craze because I was living in Europe as an interpreter before that and the rates there were criminal.)
The phone is roughly 10 inches by four inches by one inch.
It had the old screen with the black letters, one single ring tone, and it made only phone calls - nothing else.

Less than a decade later I have a phone that is less than half the size of my original one.
It has a color screen and besides phone calls...
- Internet connectivity including ability to download music and videos and do online banking.
- Texting
- Email
- GPS tracking
- 5 MP camera
- Video camera
- A card slot where I was able to load more than half a dozen full-length movies I can watch at my leisure.

And mine isn't even one of the top-of-the-line models.

All I can say is, just imagine what they will be able to do five years from now.

Why am I boring you to tears with this information?
Because it is a reminder to me just how fast technology and human knowledge can progress.
The amount of knowledge learned in a thousand years was doubled in a hundred.
Doubled again in fifty.
Doubled again in 20.
Doubled again in 5.
Doubled again in 2.

What was unheard of 20 years ago became a luxury 15 years ago, common place 10 years ago and a necessity today.

And just as important, there has been a rapid growth in how fast humans can be indoctrinated to accept new technology, abilities, regulations, guidelines, and laws.

Now....apply that to morals and civil standards.
What was considered immoral 20 years ago became a novelty 15 years ago, common place 10 years ago, and completely accepted today.
Accepted to the point that those who oppose it are the ones now considered immoral.

We are quickly - and I do mean quickly - reaching a point of no return.

- Those who wish to adhere to morals are the ones being called immoral.
- Technology allows for the tracking and profiling of individuals down to their social habits, buying habits, political beliefs, etc.
- The usage of credit and debit cards means that purchasing habits (as well as where and when the transactions took place) are already known.

Actual currency is quickly going away. Other than vending machines I make only 1-2 actual cash transactions per week.
I have told my daughter that in in the next couple of years we will be able to say we remember the last time we used actual money to buy something.

Humans have become accustomed to rapid changes in technology, governmental practices, political policies, etc.

Combine that with the obvious things taking place that dovetail with end-time prophecies and we are looking at the Tribulation coming in the not too distant future.




.

 

[BibleScribe]

I have the very first cell phone I ever purchased sitting on my desk. It is from 1997. ...

Daniel 12
[sup]4[/sup] “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”


Hi Foreigner,

Some paraphrase editions presume that the "knowledge" is the understanding of the ~Word of GOD~, -- but you have correctly identified the aspect which I believe this verse depicts.


BibleScribe

 

[ronmorgen]

What was considered immoral 20 years ago became a novelty 15 years ago, common place 10 years ago, and completely accepted today.
Accepted to the point that those who oppose it are the ones now considered immoral. . . Combine that with the obvious things taking place that dovetail with end-time prophecies and we are looking at the Tribulation coming in the not too distant future.

"We are looking at the Tribulation coming in the not too distant future." No, we are looking at the tribulation taking place right now, only it hasn't quite reached the United States yet. Just ask anyone in the Republic of South Africa where 2,000,000 have died at the hands of the Muslim North Africa in the last 20 years or their 4,000,000 refugees.

edit
Your error is in thinking of the tribulation as a short 7 year period when it has been much longer. How do you support the "7 years". Do you have more that one or two verses?

 

[ronmorgen]

Daniel 12
[sup]4[/sup] “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

Hi Bible Scribe. Agreed, it's a sign of the end times. It's not just secular knowledge that increased. Prophetic knowledge has increased, much of which could not be known until certain other event came to pass. Much prophecy has been revealed since the birth of Israel in1948 and the return of millions of scattered Jews (Aliyah ). Both these events have been foretold numerous times in the prophets.

 

[Foreigner]

"We are looking at the Tribulation coming in the not too distant future." No, we are looking at the tribulation taking place right now, only it hasn't quite reached the United States yet. Just ask anyone in the Republic of South Africa where 2,000,000 have died at the hands of the Muslim North Africa in the last 20 years or their 4,000,000 refugees.

Your error is in thinking of the tribulation as a short 7 year period when it has been much longer. How do you support the "7 years". Do you have more that one or two verses?

-- There are travesties and terrors taking place across the world today. But it is NOT the Tribulation.

I was not aware that "one or two verses" of scripture was not enough to prove that something is accurate. Just how many God-breathed scriptures speaking of a specific event DOES it require exactly?

Perhaps then - according to your own requirements - you could post more than "one or two verses" supporting your opinion that the Tribulation spoken of in Revelation is actually taking place as we speak.




.

 

[ronmorgen]

I was not aware that "one or two verses" of scripture was not enough to prove that something is accurate.
.

Go ahead brother. Prove it to the best of your ability. And don't think that I want to be contentious, as I respect you, but this false doctrine is so deeply ingrained in our modern church that people just people just accept it as axiomatic

A good read: http://www.beholdthebeast.com/contents_tfp.htm
.

 

[ronmorgen]

-- There are travesties and terrors taking place across the world today. But it is NOT the Tribulation.

I was not aware that "one or two verses" of scripture was not enough to prove that something is accurate. Just how many God-breathed scriptures speaking of a specific event DOES it require exactly?

Perhaps then - according to your own requirements - you could post more than "one or two verses" supporting your opinion that the Tribulation spoken of in Revelation is actually taking place as we speak.
.

Off course I will. First look at my signature below and notice that both verses say that on "The Last Day" two events happen. What are they?
Answer: 1. The resurrection of the saints and 2. The resurrection of the Wicked. Daniel also speaks of these two events in Dan 12:1-3
"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


You may also refer to my earlier Post 58 above which lays it out with a multitude of scripture. You just need to apply yourself to hours of study to get it right instead of going along with the crowd.

 

[BibleScribe]

Hi Bible Scribe. Agreed, it's a sign of the end times. It's not just secular knowledge that increased. Prophetic knowledge has increased, much of which could not be known until certain other event came to pass. Much prophecy has been revealed since the birth of Israel in1948 and the return of millions of scattered Jews (Aliyah ). Both these events have been foretold numerous times in the prophets.

Hi Ron,

One of the concepts proposed in modern times (~1985) was the premise that the Psalms (the 19th book of the Bible) are prophetic for the 1900's, Chapter for year, such that if one read this 19th book, chapter 44, one would discover the holocaust; equally, the 19th book, chapter 48, for the nation of Israel; and so forth.

And per this premise, one could discover the Daniel 9 "going forth of the Word to establish and rebuild Jerusalem", as being a GOD ordained proclamation for the 1900's.


BibleScribe

 

[Foreigner]

Off course I will. First look at my signature below and notice that both verses say that on "The Last Day" two events happen. What are they?
Answer: 1. The resurrection of the saints and 2. The resurrection of the Wicked. Daniel also speaks of these two events in Dan 12:1-3
"At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-everyone whose name is found written in the book-will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

You may also refer to my earlier Post 58 above which lays it out with a multitude of scripture. You just need to apply yourself to hours of study to get it right instead of going along with the crowd.

-- Not trying to be obtuse ronmorgen, but neither your post nor the scripture you provide give any proof whatsoever that we are in the middle of the great Tribulation.

Do you have something a little more concrete?

 

[veteran]

I certainly agree with most of what you have written.. As far as a need for a Physical Planet for a Spiritual body is concerned that i have some issue with. My understaanding is that the earth will be re-populated with people in the physical form, by people "of" a physical form "And the lion shall lay with the lamb" (not verbatum). It is a good thing we discuss these things as it enables us to be diligent. It is a wonderous thing that prophecy is not easily understood.

In 2 Kings 21, God referred to His cleansing of Jerusalem in OT history like wiping a dish and turning it upside down. That's what our Lord is going to do at Christ's second coming, but to the whole earth. You don't throw the dish away, and He's not going to do that. He's going to cleanse the earth's surface with a consuming fire (2 Peter 3). That 2 Pet.3 chapter uses a Greek word for "elements" that does not mean literal earthly material elements. Instead, it points to a worldly order of man's things on earth.

In John 5:28-29, our Lord Jesus showed that at His coming all in the graves will resurrect, those who worked good to the "resurrection of life", but that time of resurrection will include the wicked too to the "resurrection of damnation". That means two TYPES of resurrection, both at the same time of Christ's coming.

Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 that those who are still alive on earth at that point will be 'changed' to the "spiritual body". Isaiah 25 is where he was pulling from about the resurrection, and Isaiah 25 reveals that will occur upon all nations that are still alive at Christ's coming.

So after Christ's return, we all will be in resurrection type bodies, the wicked unjust also. The difference is that the wicked will still be spiritually dead, still subject to the "second death" later in the "lake of fire." (Rev.20). That's who the "dead" of Rev.20:5 will be. A second resurrection is inferred in that Rev.20 chapter, but it is not a resurrection of those in a literal grave, but ANOTHER resurrection unto Christ like the "first resurrection".


This is an expression about the spiritual body, that it won't get old, nor have an infant stage...

Isa 65:20
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
(KJV)

After Christ's return, the ONLY type of death remaining will be the "second death", which is the casting into the "lake of fire" at the end of the "thousand years."

 

[ronmorgen]

neither your post nor the scripture you provide give any proof whatsoever that we are in the middle of the great Tribulation.
Do you have something a little more concrete?

I don't think we're in the middle, I think we're at the end. But I am NOT thinking about a seven year last day tribulation.

I have to proceed one step at a time brother, because there are many misconceptions about the subject, and I need to know which ones you hold in order to answer you. First I would like to ask you, do you know that the resurrection of the saints happens at the same time as the rapture?


Read 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. And make sure you read the whole chapter in Corinthians.
Note that the resurrection happens at the same time as the rapture in both verses.

"The Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever".
Compare with "We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed".

 

[aspen]

Seems as if people from every time after Christ's resurrection believed they were in the last days - the fall of the temple, Rome, Viking invasions, Black plague, Church Schisms and Reformations, Modernity, Millerites, WWI and WWII, Genocides, Israel, ect

I think they were all right.

 

[ronmorgen]

The resurrection(s), the rapture, the destruction of the world by fire, and the great white thrown judgement all happen when:

"The Lord Jesus is revealed (2nd coming) from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction (judgement) and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (rapture) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

Seems as if people from every time after Christ's resurrection believed they were in the last days - the fall of the temple, Rome, Viking invasions, Black plague, Church Schisms and Reformations, Modernity, Millerites, WWI and WWII, Genocides, Israel, ect

I think they were all right.

You are right!


Hey Aspen, I spoke too quickly. It is all the time after the regathering of Israel in 1948.



For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days. Hos 3:4-5

 

[veteran]

The resurrection(s), the rapture, the destruction of the world by fire, and the great white thrown judgement all happen when:

"The Lord Jesus is revealed (2nd coming) from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction (judgement) and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people (rapture) and to be marveled at among all those who have believed."
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10


You are right!

Hey Aspen, I spoke too quickly. It is all the time after the regathering of Israel in 1948.


For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or idol. Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days. Hos 3:4-5

Cannot just focus on phrases like the "last days" to determine the order of events of the end of this present world.

Heb 1:1-2
1 God, Who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, Whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds;
(KJV)

Micah 4:1
1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
(KJV)

Both those Scriptures mention the idea of 'last days', but clearly their timeline is different. The Hebrews 1:1-2 reference was about the days not long after Christ's crucifixion. But the Micah 4:1 last days reference is for a time still FUTURE to us today!

So technically, the idea of 'last days' can cover the time from Christ's crucifixion all the way to the time AFTER His second coming and our gathering, and the establishing of Ezekiel's temple for His thousand years reign (which is still future). Yet our Lord gave us a whole lot of prophetic events in His Word that prove His thousand years has NOT begun yet today.

I'm sorry, I have to assign the erroneous idea that Christ's Millennial reign has already begun as jibberish from another spirit, since it forces one to deny that Christ's second coming is not a Bodily coming, nor a literal gathering of His saints.

Anyone can simply assign events in God's Word as being meant in the 'spiritual sense' only and many will be fooled by it, simply because a lot of people want to show they are spiritual by believing it. What better way for Satan to try and change God's Truth in His Word than to misapply literal written events to be only in the spiritual sense! That's exactly what heeding mens false traditions that Christ's thousand years reign has already begun does.

 

[ronmorgen]

I'm sorry, I have to assign the erroneous idea that Christ's Millennial reign has already begun as gibberish from another spirit, since it forces one to deny that Christ's second coming is not a Bodily coming...

Know this brother, I did not say you are "from another spirit". I have treated you with respect the whole time. I have presented the correct interpretation of the scriptures with proof texts, but it goes against your doctrinal predisposition. If you keep up the attacks, I'm out of here.

You said, "I'm sorry, I have to assign the erroneous idea that Christ's Millennial reign has already begun as jibberish from another spirit, since it forces one to deny that Christ's second coming is not a Bodily coming."

This is what I believe is the root problem with your interpretation.

You don't realize that the resurrection of the saints is into a "SPIRITUAL BODY" You probably have not read 1 Cor 15:35-54 very closely.


Someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?" 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

 

[veteran]

Dear Veteran,

Timing of the Resurrection
The amillennial view holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age. Amillennialism holds that Christ's reign during the millennium is spiritual in nature, and at the end of the church
age/millennium , Christ will return in final judgment.

I'm aware of that, but it's not Biblical. Nor is Christ's future "thousand years" reign just a symbolic idea. The word spiritual doesn't work, the way amillennialists believe is actually treating it as symbolic only. Yet, it will be a literal time and reign. One has to tear down too many simple Scriptures just to have that amill view.

First I want to establish that the rapture is a part of the resurrection of the just. The passed saints are raised, then the living saints changed. The result is the same, “when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

” 1 John 3:2....

Yeah, got that.

"This is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:39
"There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day". John 12:48
Resurrection to life, and to judgment on the "Last Day".

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:2-3 NIV
Resurrection to everlasting life, and to everlasting contempt both on the "Last Day". There is no room here for 7 years, 1000 years or any such gaps.

Simply jumping to the conclusion that the "last day" is some other time than the day of Christ's return is un-Biblical. Daniel 12:1 covers a time of trouble the world has never seen the likes of before. Christ called it a time of "great tribulation" in Matt.24.

Dan 12:1-2
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
(KJV)

The Scripture in bold is for right after... the tribulation of the last days. OT prophecies separated by lengths of time are often presented joined like that. Isaiah 61:1-2 is an example which covers Christ's first coming and His second coming. There's a time gap between Christ's first and second comings. There's a time gap between that Dan.12 bold section and what's before it. But it's a short time gap.

I thought that "thief" thing was relating to the rapture. No, the rapture is on the same day as the destruction of the world, and he comes as a thief for the unbelieving.

The day of wrath is the same "day of The Lord" Paul and Peter linked Christ's second coming "as a thief" with (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10). That is the time of our being gathered to Christ, what some call the rapture.

due to the study I did on second coming and judgment being on the same day, the millennium has to be the church age we are in now. I am very sure of that, and it happens to be the traditional view held for 1800 years and the Catholic view to this date.

Not interested in your links. If you can't present your position here using simple Scripture, then it's not worth presenting, IMHO.