How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?

[ATP]

Not always. The covenant God made to Noah was to all mankind and every living creature. Besides, even if it were only used in other places as you say that doesn't necessitate that it could never be used any other way in the Bible. To me the fact that the "he" in this passage refers to the "prince of the people that shall come" would make him to be the AC who in some way is connected to Rome (the "people" who destroyed the city and the sanctuary) according to what I gather from prophecies about him. All these factors point to this "covenant" being an agreement that is confirmed (initiated, or maybe just negotiated) by the AC and that he breaks the agreement mid point leaving 3.5 years of his reign of terror, or the great tribulation. As you can see I don't believe in the 7 years of trib either. There are many prophecies that indicate the tribulation as 3.5 years.

I also agree the great trib is only 3.5 years. In regards to the 70th week, the following ten points provide solid evidence that Daniel’s 70th week doesn’t refer to any future Tribulation at all. Rather, it was fulfilled nearly two thousand years ago...

1. The prophecy of “seventy weeks” means seventy straight sequential weeks. There is no example in Scripture (or anywhere else!) of a time period starting, stopping, and then starting again. All biblical references to time are consecutive: 40 days and 40 nights (Genesis 7:4), 400 years in Egypt (Genesis 15:13), etc.

2. The 70th week follows immediately after the 69th week. If it doesn’t, then it cannot properly be called the 70th week!

3. It is illogical to insert a 2,000-year gap between the 69th and 70th week. There is no gap between the first seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. Why insert one between the 69th and 70th week?

4. Daniel 9:27 says nothing about any “tribulation,” “rebuilt” Jewish temple, or “antichrist.” Zero.

5. Daniel 9:24-27’s focus is the Messiah. After the Messiah is “cut off” (referring to Christ’s death), “the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.” This refers to the destruction of Jerusalem by Roman armies led by Prince Titus in A.D. 70.

6. “He shall confirm the covenant.” Paul said “the covenant” was “confirmed before by God in Christ” (Galatians 3:17). Jesus Christ came “to confirm the promises made to the fathers” (Romans 15:8). The word “covenant” is Messianic, and always applies to the Messiah, not antichrist.

7. “He shall confirm the covenant with many.” Jesus said, “This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many…” (Matthew 26:28). Jesus was quoting Daniel 9:27 specifically.

8. “In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice…to cease.” After 3 ½ years of ministry, Jesus Christ’s death put an end to all sacrifices in God’s sight. He is the final Sacrifice!

9. “For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate” (Daniel 9:27, KJV). It was abominable for the Jewish leaders to put God’s Son to death. This ended their temple. Jesus predicted, “Your house is left to you desolate” (Matthew 23:38).

10. The 70 weeks applied to the Jewish people (Daniel 9:24). Christ’s public ministry lasted 3 ½ years during which His focus was “the lost sheep of the house of Israel” (Matthew 10:6). After His resurrection and then for another 3 ½ years, His disciples preached mostly to Jews (see Acts 1-6). When the Jewish Sanhedrin stoned Stephen in 34 AD (see Acts 7), the gospel shifted to the Gentiles (see Acts 13:46)–exactly as prophecy predicted.

The evidence is overwhelming! These eight words found in Daniel 9:27: “confirm… covenant… many… midst… sacrifice… cease… abominations… desolate” all find perfect fulfillment in Jesus Christ and early Christian history. One major reason why the Jewish nation as a whole failed to receive its Messiah was because its scholars misinterpreted Daniel 9:27. They failed to see Jesus Christ as the predicted One who would die in the midst of the 70th week! The same thing is happening today as Christian scholars misapply the same prophecy.

The “seven-year tribulation theory” is like a gigantic bubble. Once Daniel 9:27 is correctly understood and the pin of truth inserted, “Pop goes the seven years!” It’s a fact: There is no Bible text that teaches any “seven-year tribulation.” If you hunt for it, you’ll end up like Ponce de Leon searching for the Fountain of Youth. He never found it.

Jesus Christ confirmed the covenant and caused the sacrifices “to cease.”

May error cease in our minds as we follow God’s truth. - ATP

 

[toknowthetruth]

I also agree the great trib is only 3.5 years. In regards to the 70th week, the following ten points provide solid evidence that Daniel’s 70th week doesn’t refer to any future Tribulation at all. Rather, it was fulfilled nearly two thousand years ago...

I beg to differ with you on that. Seems quite clear to me that the "he" in verse 27 is referring to the person directly preceding the pronoun, which is how pronouns work as far as I know. That would make the "he" the prince of the people that shall come.

Jesus spoke of the abomination of desolations spoken of by Daniel as signifying the beginning of the trib. Seems to me there is a clear reference to this in verse 27. Since 3.5 years is clearly referred to in verse 27 (half of seven) this also supports the case for this being a reference to the trib.

And if you look at the fourth beast in Daniel 7 which most likely refers to Rome you can see the 10 horns as a reference to the 10 horns on the Beast in Rev. that rule a short time before Jesus' second coming. That would mean at least a 2000 year gap between Rome and the 10 horns (kings).

I'm not saying you don't have a case. I am saying however, that you don't have overwhelming evidence of what you are claiming. Personally I don't find your case convincing.

 

[ATP]

I beg to differ with you on that. Seems quite clear to me that the "he" in verse 27 is referring to the person directly preceding the pronoun, which is how pronouns work as far as I know. That would make the "he" the prince of the people that shall come.

Jesus spoke of the abomination of desolations spoken of by Daniel as signifying the beginning of the trib. Seems to me there is a clear reference to this in verse 27. Since 3.5 years is clearly referred to in verse 27 (half of seven) this also supports the case for this being a reference to the trib.

And if you look at the fourth beast in Daniel 7 which most likely refers to Rome you can see the 10 horns as a reference to the 10 horns on the Beast in Rev. that rule a short time before Jesus' second coming. That would mean at least a 2000 year gap between Rome and the 10 horns (kings).

I'm not saying you don't have a case. I am saying however, that you don't have overwhelming evidence of what you are claiming. In fact, in my opinion it could be argued that your case is somewhat weak.

Well, do you believe in the spirit of the antichrist lurking inside men..(Dan 9:27 ISV He will make a binding covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he will suspend both the sacrifice and grain offerings. Destructive people will cause desolation on the pinnacle until it is complete and what has been decreed is poured out on the desolator.'")

Prov 8:34-36 NIV Blessed are those who listen to me, watching daily at my doors, waiting at my doorway. 35For those who find me find life and receive favor from the Lord. 36But those who fail to find me harm themselves; all who hate me love death.”

John 8:44 NIV You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 10:10 NIV The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

2 Cor 4:4 NIV The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Eph 2:1-2 NIV As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Eph 6:12 NIV For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

2 Thess 2:1-4 NIV Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

1 John 2:22 NIV Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 NIV but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 John 1:7 NIV I say this because many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

- ATP

 

[rockytopva]

If I had to pick an end time date I would go with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half.” –Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.” – Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes…

“It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –Isaac Newton

Before Christ comes the Anti-Christ must be revealed...

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; - 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Who....

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. - Revelation 13:16-18

I traveled to Tahiti the last two years and couldn't help but notice all the electronic devices hooked to databases. All you have to do is swipe your passports and all your information comes up. You can even have your iPhone display your ticket information. We are not far away from having everything stored on a universal database in which we will all be required to be tied to! And for most folk this will be just another tattoo! 2060AD is a very close, scientific, and accurate prediction!

 

[toknowthetruth]

Well, do you believe in the spirit of the antichrist lurking inside men..(Dan 9:27 ISV He will make a binding covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he will suspend both the sacrifice and grain offerings. Destructive people will cause desolation on the pinnacle until it is complete and what has been decreed is poured out on the desolator.'") ...

- ATP

I guess that means you want to end our little discussion.

 

[ATP]

I guess that means you want to end our little discussion.

No. I'm always open for discussion brother. Do you see now that the spirit of the antichrist is the "He"?

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

 

[toknowthetruth]

No. I'm always open for discussion brother. Do you see now that the spirit of the antichrist is the "He"?

Dan 9:27 NIV He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

Sorry, I'm just a little lost on where we're heading here. Are you saying that this is a reference to the "spirit" of the antichrist and not an actual person? I agree that the spirit of antichrist is working in the hearts of men. But I also believe that there will be an actual person who will be the ultimate manifestation of the anitchrist.

 

[ATP]

Sorry, I'm just a little lost on where we're heading here. Are you saying that this is a reference to the "spirit" of the antichrist and not an actual person? I agree that the spirit of antichrist is working in the hearts of men. But I also believe that there will be an actual person who will be the ultimate manifestation of the anitchrist.

Correct, Dan 9:27 speaks of the "spirit" of the antichrist, and 2 Thess 2:3-4 is up for debate whether this is a person or the spirit of the antichrist.

 

[BlackManINC]

N/A

 

[ATP]

The "he" in Daniel 9:27 and 2 Thess 2:3-4 are all translated into different words. They're not all the same which tells me...........

 

[toknowthetruth]

Correct, Dan 9:27 speaks of the "spirit" of the antichrist, and 2 Thess 2:3-4 is up for debate whether this is a person or the spirit of the antichrist.

Sorry, can't see how you get the "spirit" of the AC out of Daniel 9:27. At face value the passage is talking about a person.

 

[ATP]

Sorry, can't see how you get the "spirit" of the AC out of Daniel 9:27. At face value the passage is talking about a person.

1 John 4:3 HCS But every spirit who does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist; you have heard that he is coming, and he is already in the world now.

1 John 4:3 ISV But every spirit who does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist. You have heard that he is coming, and now he is already in the world.

1 John 4:3 ABPE And no spirit that does not confess that Yeshua has come in the flesh is from God, but this is from that False Messiah, him whom you have heard that he will come, and already he is in the world.

1 John 4:3 DRB And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world.

 

[toknowthetruth]

1 John 4:3 HCS But every spirit who does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist; you have heard that he is coming, and he is already in the world now.

1 John 4:3 ISV But every spirit who does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist. You have heard that he is coming, and now he is already in the world.

1 John 4:3 ABPE And no spirit that does not confess that Yeshua has come in the flesh is from God, but this is from that False Messiah, him whom you have heard that he will come, and already he is in the world.

1 John 4:3 DRB And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world.

KJV renders "he" as "it". Obviously there is a difference of opinion on how to translate this passage. If you want to take an obscure scripture from 1 John to interpret Dan 9:27 that's up to you. Makes no sense to me. I'd much rather compare prophetic scripture with the whole of prophetic passages and see what fits best with the rest of the passages. Otherwise you can pick and choose any particular prophetic passage and find a verse somewhere else in the Bible to fit it into several possible interpretations.

 

[ATP]

KJV renders "he" as "it". Obviously there is a difference of opinion on how to translate this passage. If you want to take an obscure scripture from 1 John to interpret Dan 9:27 that's up to you. Makes no sense to me. I'd much rather compare prophetic scripture with the whole of prophetic passages and see what fits best with the rest of the passages. Otherwise you can pick and choose any particular prophetic passage and find a verse somewhere else in the Bible to fit it into several possible interpretations.

I dunno though. I still believe Dan 9:27 ISV speaks of the spirit of the antichrist, as does Dan 9:26 ESV..And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

 

[toknowthetruth]

I dunno though. I still believe Dan 9:27 ISV speaks of the spirit of the antichrist, as does Dan 9:26 ESV..And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

I'm more inclined to go with the interpretation that in Dan 9:27 "He" is the AC who "confirms" some sort of 7 year agreement with many and then in the middle breaks the agreement. At this point he sets up the abomination of desolations which marks the beginning of the trib which will last 3.5 years. Some speculate the agreement to be something to do with the Arab Jewish conflict and attempting to settle the issue of Jerusalem by possibly declaring it an internationally controlled city open to all religions. This would allow for the Jews to rebuild their temple and reinstate their sacrificial worship.
However, you are entitled to go with what you think.

 

[Born_Again]

Here is BibleGateway's interpretation of what the "seven" means.

Daniel 9:27New International Version (NIV)
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[a] In the middle of the ‘seven’[b] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[d]”[e]


Footnotes:

1. Daniel 9:27 Or ‘week’
2. Daniel 9:27 Or ‘week’
3. Daniel 9:27 Septuagint and Theodotion; Hebrew wing
4. Daniel 9:27 Or it
5. Daniel 9:27 Or And one who causes desolation will come upon the wing of the abominable temple, until the end that is decreed is poured out on the desolated city

 

[ATP]

I'm more inclined to go with the interpretation that in Dan 9:27 "He" is the AC who "confirms" some sort of 7 year agreement with many and then in the middle breaks the agreement. At this point he sets up the abomination of desolations which marks the beginning of the trib which will last 3.5 years. Some speculate the agreement to be something to do with the Arab Jewish conflict and attempting to settle the issue of Jerusalem by possibly declaring it an internationally controlled city open to all religions. This would allow for the Jews to rebuild their temple and reinstate their sacrificial worship.
However, you are entitled to go with what you think.

But if there was a 2,000 year gap between 69 and 70, then the 70th week would really be the 286th week or something rather. 70 follows 69.

 

[toknowthetruth]

But if there was a 2,000 year gap between 69 and 70, then the 70th week would really be the 286th week or something rather. 70 follows 69.

Yes, you have a point there. However, there are problems with any interpretation out there, including yours. I don't see a problem with it myself. In fact, a similar gap occurs with the beast with 10 horns in Daniel 7.

 

[Phoneman777]

Historicalism as you misname the first view of the early Church - was not Preterist in its view, but futurist. Phoneman77 - you are literally misrepresenting facts and are not to be trusted. Historical Pre-Millenniumism is so named because that was the dominant eschatological stance in the first period of the Church, the persecuted Church prior to its adoption as the state religion of Rome.

Historical Pre-Millenniumism stated a future hope for Christ's return and rule.
- and as thus, did not say we are "in" the Millennium, nor did they say Christ fulfilled the one 'seven' of Daniel 9:27.
- those positions are taken up by:
Amillennialism: which came with Augustine in the fourth century.
Full Preterism: says the it all happened in the past, and centers itself around A.D. 70 - which is still outside the seventy 'sevens' of Daniel 9:25.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Jesuit Preterism and Jesuit Futurism came along only AFTER the Protestant Historicism of the Protestant Reformation.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shabbat shalom, gentlemen.

Sorry, but the only way to understand something written in a language is to know that language. And, I wouldn’t leave your ability to know a language in the hands of an interpreter or a commentator of whom you know nothing. “Let GOD be true and EVERY man a liar!” - Paul, Romans 3:4.

The major problem with finding ANYTHING about an “Antichrist” in Daniel 9:24-27 is that the “prince that shall come” is the object of a PREPOSITIONAL PHRASE (in English), which has no direct part in the subject or predicate of the sentence!

This rule has a Hebrew counterpart called a “construct state” in which the second noun of a noun pair is subordinate to the first and serves as either a description of the first or a possessive of the first. The Hebrew phrase “bat Tsiown,” for instance, is a “daughter OF Zion,” showing possession. She is "ZION’S daughter.” When put in a sentence, the “daughter” could be the subject or the object, either direct or indirect, but NOT “ZION!"

In Daniel 9:26, we have another "construct state”: `am nagiyd. This phrase means “a people OF a prince,” again, showing possession. It’s the “prince’s people.” Thus, “people” (“`am”) can be the subject or object, but NOT “PRINCE!"

Another interesting thing about ancient Hebrew is the lack of punctuation. To denote a break in sentence structure, the vav- connective (usually interpreted as “and” or “but”) is added at the “beginning” of a “sentence.” And, the word “he” does not exist in the Hebrew version of Daniel 9:27. The verbs of verse 27 need to go back to the last singular, masculine subject that can be found.

All that to say this: The “he” in the English versions of Daniel 9:27 CANNOT refer to the “prince” in Daniel 9:26! He is in the WRONG PART OF SPEECH! The “prince" is neither the subject of “he shall strengthen a covenant” nor of “he shall cause to cease the sacrifice and the gift” nor of “he shall make it desolate."

The last singular, masculine subject that can be found is “Mashiyach” (“Messiah") in Daniel 9:26, and it is HE who would fulfill these roles.

The Messiah "shall strengthen a covenant” - Psalm 89:20-38.

Psalm 89:20-38
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

The Messiah “shall cause to cease the sacrifice and the gift” - Hebrews 10:1-14.

Hebrews 10:1-14
1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
KJV

The Messiah “shall make it desolate, even until the consummation” - Matthew 23:37-39.

Matthew 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV​

Therefore, the “Antichrist” is NOT FOUND in Daniel 9:26-27!