How Could Have Satan Sinned?

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BARNEY BRIGHT

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When he was in Heaven and there's no sin in Heaven? Also, would God forgive him if he repented?

Obviously from the scriptures we understand that an Angel is the first intelligent being to have sinned when he used a serpent to deceive Eve. He made many slanderous remarks about the True God and his rulership and convinced Eve he was right about the remarks he said about the True God and his rulership. Sin originated in heaven because an Angel who became Satan the Devil rebelled against the True God because he wanted what only belongs to the True God, "worship."
 

Brakelite

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Satan said this:Genesis 3 BSB
For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

Interestingly, what many miss? Satan did not lie.
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil.
What you are missing is that Satan said this godlike quality could be found whilst in a state, even through the state, of disobedience. Scripture declares that being transformed into the image of Christ can only come through obedience.
The other thing most miss? Without the knowledge of good and evil, obedience and disobedience, Eve nor Adam would be able to choose to obey or disobey God's command not to eat.
You are intimating that God deliberately planned sin to be a part of human nature. Adam and eve knew God personally and walked with Him before sin. It was that relationship that was interrupted by sin... Not enhanced by it.
When man and woman were made of God, therein were of and from God, what would be wrong with being like God in knowledge? God has that knowledge. What damned Adam and Eve wasn't the fruit. It was that they disobeyed his order not to eat of it. However, without knowledge of what it means to obey, they were not actually guilty of wilful disobedience because they did not know the difference.
God had knowledge of evil through past experience with Lucifer, now Satan. The angels that chose to follow the rebel did so without any foreknowledge of sin. Si began with Lucifer and we don't know why. We know that pride incubated it, we don't know where it came from. The fact is that God told Adam not to eat. He did. His only excuse was to blame his wife. It wasn't an excuse that he didn't understand what doing as he's told means.

The baby doesn't understand those orders. They're innocent. As was Adam and Eve.
Babies are babies. Adam and Eve were adults, with perfect reasoning powers greater than any human since. Straight from the hand of God with inbuilt understanding of what right and wrong is. What they lacked was trust.
 

keithr

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Interestingly, what many miss? Satan did not lie.
Satan did lie, he said:

"The serpent said to the woman, “You won’t really die," (Gen 3:4 WEB).

His motive for getting Eve to disobey God was because he wanted to rule over mankind, so he started by trying to turn Adam and Eve against God. Satan has ever since been fighting against God's plans for mankind, trying to thwart God's plan for redeeming mankind, and he continues to try to deceive people into thinking that we do not die (hence such lies/deceptions about ghosts, mediums being able to talk to the dead, reincarnation, etc.).
 

keithr

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Jesus said:

..." (The Poem of the Man-God: Volume I, by Maria Valtorta, ch. 17, p. 49)
Just reading the beginning of the introduction was enough to tell me that that writing is not in harmony with the Bible. We should not believe someone's claim to have receieved a communication from Jesus in 1944 as a true message from Jesus if it is not in total harmony with the Bible, God's word to us. That is very dangerous. This seems to me that this very Roman Catholic non-scriptural writing is either all human fiction, or another demon inspired writing, like the book of Mormon and the Koran. I would urge all Christians to ignore it and trust only the Bible.

In fact a little research reveals that:

By a decree of January 5, 1960, published on instructions of Pope John XXIII, the Holy Office condemned the published work and included it in the Index Librorum Prohibitorum [Index of Forbidden Books]. The decree was published also on L'Osservatore Romano [the Vatican newspaper] of January 6, 1960, accompanied by a front-page, unsigned article under the heading "A Badly Fictionalized Life of Jesus". The book was placed on the Index because of its claim to supernatural guidance. (The Poem of the Man-God - Wikipedia).
 
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Nancy

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Whenever people try to pass off the woman in Revelation 12 as the ekklesia or body of Christ they do so recklessly and mangle the Scriptures in the process. Prior to its metaphorical marriage to the Lamb, the body of Christ is described as a virginal bride, and it is absurd to suggest the bride of Christ gives birth to the Christ child as described in Revelation 12 and then after His ascension flees into the desert.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Rev 19:7-8 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready. (8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

" it is absurd to suggest the bride of Christ gives birth to the Christ child as described in Revelation 12 and then after His ascension flees into the desert."

For sure brother. Those who wrest the scriptures like this will be to their own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16)
 
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Nancy

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Then you're not a Christian. True Christians recognize the True Church who has Jesus Christ as the head and that has God Holy Spirit. They meet there with fellow Christians.
"Church" is wherever the people of God decide to meet. It can be a house, it can be in a parking lot, it can be ANYWHERE! It can be even on here!
Why is it so hard for some folks to see that WE ARE The church?? And no one denomination will be "The One" that is saved. We know His voice and will come out from among those who are false professors when He call us. Until then, in EVERY denomination there will be tares and wheat. I am getting so I cannot stand organized "religion". If we gather, we sing praises and talk on Him all day long, is that not the "church" gathering??
 
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Nancy

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Yes, QT, we all understand the rudimentary attributes of God, that God is love. But, getting past these elementary principles, we now have to harmonize the wrath of God, with His holiness. James alluded to Job as a historical fact. Therefore, the adversary requested from God the permission to put Job to the test, and God complied. And, not to mention the countless other consequences pronounced by God that those who do not obey His commands, will suffer accordingly (Deuteronomy 11:29).
The point becomes, is punishment for evil, holy? We have but no choice but to say, yes.

Agreed DNB,
"we now have to harmonize the wrath of God, with His holiness."

It's a hard teaching but...He is still Holy in His wrath as He doesn't change. He's Holy in everything he does, amen! Just in ALL His ways...and yes, there is NO darkness in Him. He will allow evil and darkness to occur but, that doesn't mean it is in Him.
It's not like He has not warned us over and over again all through the word of His commands, and how to live a Godly life. But, we are tested and will be tested even way so much more in the coming years so, let's pray up and faith up!!!! :)
 

keithr

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keithr said:
Just reading the beginning of the introduction was enough to tell me that that writing is not in harmony with the Bible.​

Because?
Well, I'll include the start of the introduction here, so others can make their minds up too. It's obvious to me and I'm sure it will be obvious to others who are familiar with the Bible too. One big clue is the mention of "The Most Holy Trinity", which is unscriptual, as are refering to Jesus' mother Mary as "Mother of God" and "Queen of Heaven".

1. Introduction.
22nd August 1944.
Jesus orders me: << Take a completely new notebook. Write down on the first
page what I dictated on August the 16th. She will be spoken of in this book. >>
I obey and I write.

16th August 1944.
Jesus says:
<< Today write only this. Purity has such a value, that the womb of a creature can
contain the Uncontainable One, because She possessed the greatest purity that a
creature of God could have.

The Most Holy Trinity descended with Its perfections, inhabited with Its Three
Persons, enclosed Its infinity in a small space. But It did not debase Itself by
doing so, because the love of the Virgin and the will of God widened this space
until they rendered it a Heaven. And the Most Holy Trinity made Itself known
by Its characteristics:

The Father, being once again the Creator of the creature, as on the sixth day of
Creation, had a real, worthy daughter fashioned to His perfect image. The mark
of God was impressed so completely and exactly on Mary, that only in the First-
bom was it greater. Mary can be called the Second-bom of the Father because,
owing to the perfection granted to Her and preserved by Her, and to Her dignity
of Spouse and Mother of God and Queen of Heaven, She comes second after the
Son of the Father and second in His eternal thought, which ab aetemo took
delight in Her.

The Son, being also “Her Son”, did teach Her, by the mystery of Grace, His
truth and wisdom, when He was but an Embryo, growing in Her womb.​


Some more from Wikipedia, which says:

In 1992 Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi, President of the Italian Episcopal Conference, directed the publisher of the work to state clearly at the beginning of each volume that the "visions" and "revelations" referred to in it "cannot be held to be of supernatural origin but must be considered simply as literary forms used by the author to narrate in her own way the life of Jesus". His directive, communicated by letter 324/92 of January 6, 1992, was made at the request of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. His letter also recalled the notes about the matter that appeared on L'Osservatore Romano of January 6, 1960, and June 15, 1966.

In 1993 Cardinal Ratzinger wrote to Bishop Raymond James Boland of Birmingham, Alabama, that his Congregation had made that request to the Italian Bishops Conference to ask the publisher to have a disclaimer printed in the volumes that "clearly indicated from the very first page that the 'visions' and 'dictations' referred to in it are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in origin."[20]
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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"Church" is wherever the people of God decide to meet. It can be a house, it can be in a parking lot, it can be ANYWHERE! It can be even on here!
Why is it so hard for some folks to see that WE ARE The church?? And no one denomination will be "The One" that is saved. We know His voice and will come out from among those who are false professors when He call us. Until then, in EVERY denomination there will be tares and wheat. I am getting so I cannot stand organized "religion". If we gather, we sing praises and talk on Him all day long, is that not the "church" gathering??

I didn't say the church was a building, you're assuming I said that it was. What I'm saying is that those who are making up the true Church/congregation meet together because of the love they have for the true God and for each other. When a person says they don't have a congregation they congregate with then they don't love the True God enough to congregate with his servants and they don't love his/her spiritual brothers and sisters to want to meet and associate with them.
 
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quietthinker

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I still think that Job was an historical account of a man inflicted by God, through the means of Satan, in order to bring Job to a greater understanding and reverence, for his maker. And, to offer insight to the reader of God's sovereignty, and to the virtue of patience even while amidst the most dire circumstances.
God's methods are revealed in Jesus....he is the final word on how God really operates and I would quote Hebrews 1:1-3
 
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Nancy

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DNB

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Agreed DNB,
"we now have to harmonize the wrath of God, with His holiness."

It's a hard teaching but...He is still Holy in His wrath as He doesn't change. He's Holy in everything he does, amen! Just in ALL His ways...and yes, there is NO darkness in Him. He will allow evil and darkness to occur but, that doesn't mean it is in Him.
It's not like He has not warned us over and over again all through the word of His commands, and how to live a Godly life. But, we are tested and will be tested even way so much more in the coming years so, let's pray up and faith up!!!! :)
yes, precisely Nancy, ...and just for the record, I wouldn't even call it a paradox, for like you said, all His actions constantly remain holy - the question is not in His intent, but our understanding of it.
I think sometimes it's us not recognizing our own wickedness, where we consider wrath as excessive, or an act of tyranny on God's part. But, it's nothing more than the desensitization of our hearts, and the vices that come with the corporeal container that we live in.

All the same, one cannot avoid the axiom that God's wrath is part of His character, for a world-wide flood leaves very little evidence to say otherwise - who else can take the credit?
Thank you Nancy, yes, we are guilty as sin, utterly reprehensible (on our best day), and I don't even believe in the Fall of man (character wise), ...let's faith-up!
 
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DNB

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God's methods are revealed in Jesus....he is the final word on how God really operates and I would quote Hebrews 1:1-3
Well, clearly, one cannot separate the two, and especially imply, like you did, That Jesus defied all Old Testament precepts. I would quote Romans 15:4.
Yes, Jesus was God's Word from the beginning, but the OT is not devoid of wisdom and Insight into who God is - God is immutable, obviously. If you think that the doxologies of the Psalms and Job, are not the definitive attributes of God, then I would think that you have a less than prudent esteem of the OT?
 

Nancy

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yes, precisely Nancy, ...and just for the record, I wouldn't even call it a paradox, for like you said, all His actions constantly remain holy - the question is not in His intent, but our understanding of it.
I think sometimes it's us not recognizing our own wickedness, where we consider wrath as excessive, or an act of tyranny on God's part. But, it's nothing more than the desensitization of our hearts, and the vices that come with the corporeal container that we live in.

All the same, one cannot avoid the axiom that God's wrath is part of His character, for a world-wide flood leaves very little evidence to say otherwise - who else can take the credit?
Thank you Nancy, yes, we are guilty as sin, utterly reprehensible (on our best day), and I don't even believe in the Fall of man (character wise), ...let's faith-up!

"... the question is not in His intent, but our understanding of it."

Yes, for sure. "Who can know Him"?
I for one am so very grateful that He never changes. He is our Rock! Where else to go to that doesn't ever waver?
Faith up soldiers! :D
 
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DNB

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"... the question is not in His intent, but our understanding of it."

Yes, for sure. "Who can know Him"?
I for one am so very grateful that He never changes. He is our Rock! Where else to go to that doesn't ever waver?
Faith up soldiers! :D
Yes, He's beyond glorious, ineffably so!
 
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quietthinker

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As far as Satan goes, didn't God create the angels with free will...?
Yes....he creates all intelligences with free will. It is only with free will that any can render or withhold service because of choice.....and love does not coerce neither does it create autonotoms
 
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Nancy

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Yes....he creates all intelligences with free will. It is only with free will that any can render or withhold service because of choice.....and love does not coerce neither does it create autonotoms
Amen...His Love is free and so are we :D
 

quietthinker

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All the same, one cannot avoid the axiom that God's wrath is part of His character, for a world-wide flood leaves very little evidence to say otherwise - who else can take the credit?
'wrath' is not an independent attribute living somewhere for ever in God's reality. It is the force manifested at anything which destroys ie, sin and death. It will eventually destroy both rendering God's vast creation eternally clean.
We know this because of Calvary. The 'experiment' of Lucifer with evil which saw the whole Universe watching has run its course and as a continuing reminder of its results Jesus will bear the scars in his hands, his feet and his side.
 

DNB

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'wrath' is not an independent attribute living somewhere for ever in God's reality. It is the force manifested at anything which destroys ie, sin and death. It will eventually destroy both rendering God's vast creation eternally clean.
We know this because of Calvary. The 'experiment' of Lucifer with evil which saw the whole Universe watching has run its course and as a continuing reminder of its results Jesus will bear the scars in his hands, his feet and his side.
Well, you bring up an interesting point, but, then again, you didn't. Yes, you are correct, its manifestation will be temporal, for there will be no need for wrath in Christ's eternal Kingdom. But, do not forget, the Lake of Fire is also eternal. So, in that case, the evidence of God's wrath will never extinguish.

I'm sorry QT, I believe I understand what you are saying, that wrath is a negative attribute, therefore it is inaccurate to call a byproduct of sin, a characteristic of God. But, you are missing the sovereignty of God, sin is only a violation if God deems it so, where there is no law, there is no transgression. Meaning, God chose to display His wrath. He chose to enact a Law that would condemn man, for various reasons, one of them being to display His holiness and austerity. I don't believe that we can separate the two, His love and all His judgements.
 

quietthinker

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Well, you bring up an interesting point, but, then again, you didn't. Yes, you are correct, its manifestation will be temporal, for there will be no need for wrath in Christ's eternal Kingdom. But, do not forget, the Lake of Fire is also eternal. So, in that case, the evidence of God's wrath will never extinguish.
I would say the lake of fire is eternal in its consequences not eternal in its duration.
I'm sorry QT, I believe I understand what you are saying, that wrath is a negative attribute, therefore it is inaccurate to call a byproduct of sin, a characteristic of God. But, you are missing the sovereignty of God, sin is only a violation if God deems it so, where there is no law, there is no transgression. Meaning, God chose to display His wrath. He chose to enact a Law that would condemn man, for various reasons, one of them being to display His holiness and austerity. I don't believe that we can separate the two, His love and all His judgements.
This view underpins the arbitrary view of sin's definition. I hold that sin is the cause of death.....nothing arbitrary about it.